Can we remove the stagger on quick thinking now?

[ShiraHagane]

It's been a while, since I last saw a post on this topic.

Since then, Inaros was released, who can get over 5k health and can restore a quarter of his health with one melee finisher, so clearly it's not a problem of health pools being too big.  The largest possible energy pool you can have is 880 energy, for a maximum effective energy health of 2640 at the cost of 4 mods (primed flow, endurance drift, quick thinking, and gladiator finesse) , compared to Inaros' 4620 only using vitality.  Plus, inaros doesn't get stunlocked to death past level 40.

Quick thinking was supposed to make caster frames with lower health able to survive at higher levels without getting oneshot, but it usually just gets you killed and drains all your energy.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

Nah. Then becomes mandatory mod.

[ShiraHagane]

Just now, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Nah. Then becomes mandatory mod.

Not when it requires at least 2 mods to get the same effect as 1 health mod.  Actually, when you compare it to other frames, maybe the percentage could be toned down a bit, maybe to 1.5 or 1.8 multiplier

[Xardis]

Maybe not remove stagger but when it staggers you get 5s immunity from staggers and knockdowns like 2 mods in conclave.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Heh, in my long-held (and very condescending) opinion it's entirely because Quick Thinking is generally a bad mod and they want to discourage you from thinking otherwise.

What people forget about Quick Thinking is that, almost regardless of the frame, you are more effective with Energy than without it. The few hundred extra EHP genuinely doesn't matter if you have no abilities to cast to keep yourself alive for those few more seconds.

The only possible frame that qualifies for it being less hindering is Limbo, who can damage mitigate entirely by dashing into the void, regenerating energy that way instead. He doesn't need a cast to keep himself alive after taking damage and having his energy drained like that.

But it's especially bad if you're doing content in a team, if you get shot and fall over in a team, you can be revived. A revived player with no energy is helpless. They can even just go down again immediately because their Effective Health has no energy pool to draw from. A revived player with a full Vitality on, and all the energy they had when they went down? That's a player brought back to full-function. Even if they have less Effective Health, they have more actual survivability due to having CC or Defense abilities available to them.

Then again, if you're only doing the kind of content where your reliable casting doesn't matter and you never get your whole energy pool drained through Quick Thinking... fill your boots. At the point where Quick Thinking is in any way not a hindrance to overall play, you could get by with just a Gladiator mod instead. In fact, use that because it has a better overall effect on your melee builds.

/condescending rant on a bad mod.

[Arunafeltz]

inb4 "just use pain threshold lololol"

 

Well. At least Pain Threshold is an Exilus mod. Not quite the fix I wanted for Quick Thinking after all these years, but it helps.

 

[(PSN)thefallenloser]

13 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

/condescending rant on a bad mod.

It's actually pretty good on Volt and Nova too, Volt can block the damage with his Electric Shield if he's holding it and Nova can ignore the stagger completely with Null Star.

[Loza03]

I think just making it that the staggers can't be combo'd would be enough. I despise Seeker because the Tempo of their guns perfectly matches the statgger… 

[Callback]

The stagger was only added back when quick thinking stacked with rage for near-invincibility.  That interaction was nerfed fairly quickly, but the stagger was never removed.  Why?  It no longer serves a purpose.

[(PSN)Guerrilian]

I didn't know that Quick Thinking staggered.

I don't think it staggers you out of melee. Somehow, Chroma, even as he is, works wonders in Lvl 80 Rathuum with Rage, QuickThinking, and a melee weapon with Healing Return. Or is it just heavy melee? I use Tempo Royale with Primed Fury and Berserker. After all, his deluxe skin came with a Heavy Blade skin and his Prime access comes with a Prime Heavy Blade.

'Quick Thinking' does seem to fit more with a melee-type dipping into their underused mana pool rather than a caster healing themselves with something they already rely on. Otherwise, it would be called 'Desperate Times'. I think this was established when Warframe had finite stamina pools. 

Regardless of intention, it does sound annoying to make you stumble if you aren't playing the full barbarian role. People may pounce if I say to just remove it, but maybe have it stagger less with every instance or as Xardis said, have a few seconds of invincibility.

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Thaylien:

What people forget about Quick Thinking is that, almost regardless of the frame, you are more effective with Energy than without it. The few hundred extra EHP genuinely doesn't matter if you have no abilities to cast to keep yourself alive for those few more seconds.

One word: Rage.

Maximising the gained energy means more energy for abilities...you're definitly better off with more ehp that generates energy then with Cc until you run out approximately 90% of the time (basicly except for our survival meta). I mean yeah, prior and current zenurik came later what gave frames a actuall alternative to the continously nerfed energy orb rng but that's still the idea behind using QT. That you have 2 regenerative EHP pools that feed you energy until certain levels.

...it is this percentage what makes the stagger so goddarn fatal. It was made to starve frames that could very well use the extra energy off of it before they changed theyr mind all of a sudden and left QT in this broken state. Now it's only useable by frames that are in posession of some kinda stunlock Cc - ember and oberon for example, while excluding every frame that's lacking those tools to begin with.

I say it's about time for DE to revert this mechanic.

[VanFanel1980mx]

Some enemy attacks seem to bypass QT alltogether, is this the usual lazy difficulty design or how can it not just drain all my energy first?

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Maximising the gained energy means more energy for abilities...you're definitly better off with more ehp that generates energy then with Cc until you run out approximately 90% of the time (basicly except for our survival meta). I mean yeah, prior and current zenurik came later what gave frames a actuall alternative to the continously nerfed energy orb rng but that's still the idea behind using QT. That you have 2 regenerative EHP pools that feed you energy until certain levels.

So what you're saying is that, while you put on a mod that causes you to lose energy while taking damage, you think it will balance out if you put on a mod that lets you gain energy while taking damage?

I mean, that was the general theory, until people realised that the order of occurence was still 'take damage, mitigate actual damage taken with conversion process using Energy, gain Energy back from having taken damage' meaning that anyone using Rage that took a large amount of damage still died because the energy gain didn't keep up with the actual fact of taking damage killing you.

The fun is that you're relying on taking two mods where another player will just take one Vitality or even a Vigor or a Gladiator mod just to stop procs from ticking them dead in one hit, and play so that they don't take the damage in the first place, or mitigate it using abilities that they can more freely cast due to better energy efficiency overall, or the abilities just have more effect because of the extra mod they can put towards them.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb Thaylien:

Snip

True in theory, in reality the gain is bigger then the loss. Only a hand full of enemies are able to oneshot you to begin with (what i consider to be a design flaw anyways since mf nullifiers are among them), every other enemy type kills you by sheer quantity.

The majority of frames have means to reduce, rather then lock down enemies, what gives you pretty good control over just how much damage you really take. In those cases it's a mean to prolong the levels this can work, especially so when you use a basic rage setup to begin with... on those builds it's usually replacing as little as an augument and it shouldn't really threated other then that in my oppinion.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

True in theory, in reality the gain is bigger then the loss.

Look man, you're going to have to at least accept this much sooner or later, whether it's from me or from another person far less personable than me ^^ And that's the fact that the mod may give you a certain amount of advantage compared to the more regular mods, but what you're not taking into account are two important things about this game:

1. At any time where Quick Thinking and Adrenaline together will give you an advantage over another player running the same frame with another build, the process of just getting killed and revived is genuinely better at getting you back to full strength as a contributing member of the team. 

2. When the toilet hits the windmill, and it will, it always does, your situation is going to be worse than if you'd just taken the death and been picked up again, because you will still fall over and you will then be completely useless until you've wasted either a bunch of Restores, or spammed out an Operator Arcane.

Because, as you say, the majority of frames have the means to take on enemies at their own pace, the important thing is to preserve the ability to repeat those functions, because if you're taking on enemies at your pace you shouldn't then be taking fatal damage anyway.

The second you lose those functions, by user error, by simple surprise, or by a team member doing something beyond your control (like casting Bladestorm when you're Radiation proc'd), then you die regardless of whether you have the bonus EHP.

You can give me all the actual maths you like, and it doesn't change that.

But... when all's said and done, the debate doesn't matter all that much ^^ I made sure to put in that '/condescending rant on a bad mod.' line specifically because I wanted to show there was humour in that.

It's actually just me being old and jaded. In relation to the game, I'm practically retired... And Quick Thinking represents, to me plus a huge amount of other players that were around before and during its release, nothing more than the absolute whiniest and bass-ackwards of players who flocked to it with the delusion that they'd be immortal. They then proceeded, without fail, to complain during missions. They wanted to leave during Key shares because they kept falling over and had no energy and they weren't having fun. It wasn't until the end of the Key era, and the start of Relics, that this process stopped happening. Many of them after that  did things like equip it on frames that had drains, they'd take damage and suddenly their ability that they'd been maintaining perfectly happily would fall out from under them and they lost all momentum to proceed even on basic lower level content.

Basically, the mod is, to me, bad not just because of the mechanics, which are debatable in either direction if I'm honest, but because of the players that absolutely ruined my enjoyment of the game because they played badly after equipping the mod, forgetting all the basics that we'd taught them because they thought they had figured out something we hadn't.

Players using Quick Thinking is genuinely, in my circle of close acquaintances in the game, an insult to their intelligence. They are, to us, the ones who spend far too long in that 'paint me like one of your French girls' position, waiting for everyone else to do something about them.

And I do say all that with a smile on my face, because, in reality, all the stupidity is something I can look back on and laugh.

There were good times...

And going back to the topic, really, there's no way that DE are going to remove that stagger. It's the punishment for the hubris that just equipping the mod provides.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Thaylien:

 

And going back to the topic, really, there's no way that DE are going to remove that stagger. It's the punishment for the hubris that just equipping the mod provides.

Probably, though i kinda doubt that THIS is gonna be the reason for them to not put work into prior f** ups.

Still leaves it with it's nieche which are frames that have fast enough Cc to counter it, stuff like my ember. You know, the weak frame everyone is so upset about. The one i've carried a solid 1,5 hours solo into drako the other day with that kinda build. It's just a frickin shame that anything is excludet that doesn't have that kinda means...what's a wide majority of the frames that could controll damage just fine.

[Ozamchist]

The staggering is easy enough to get out of either way.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

On 2018-09-27 at 11:47 AM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Nah. Then becomes mandatory mod.

hahahahahahaha.

You serious?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....done....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...oh my poor ribs...done....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[ReinAxefury]

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Look man, you're going to have to at least accept this much sooner or later, whether it's from me or from another person far less personable than me ^^ And that's the fact that the mod may give you a certain amount of advantage compared to the more regular mods, but what you're not taking into account are two important things about this game:

1. At any time where Quick Thinking and Adrenaline together will give you an advantage over another player running the same frame with another build, the process of just getting killed and revived is genuinely better at getting you back to full strength as a contributing member of the team. 

2. When the toilet hits the windmill, and it will, it always does, your situation is going to be worse than if you'd just taken the death and been picked up again, because you will still fall over and you will then be completely useless until you've wasted either a bunch of Restores, or spammed out an Operator Arcane.

Because, as you say, the majority of frames have the means to take on enemies at their own pace, the important thing is to preserve the ability to repeat those functions, because if you're taking on enemies at your pace you shouldn't then be taking fatal damage anyway.

The second you lose those functions, by user error, by simple surprise, or by a team member doing something beyond your control (like casting Bladestorm when you're Radiation proc'd), then you die regardless of whether you have the bonus EHP.

You can give me all the actual maths you like, and it doesn't change that.

But... when all's said and done, the debate doesn't matter all that much ^^ I made sure to put in that '/condescending rant on a bad mod.' line specifically because I wanted to show there was humour in that.

It's actually just me being old and jaded. In relation to the game, I'm practically retired... And Quick Thinking represents, to me plus a huge amount of other players that were around before and during its release, nothing more than the absolute whiniest and bass-ackwards of players who flocked to it with the delusion that they'd be immortal. They then proceeded, without fail, to complain during missions. They wanted to leave during Key shares because they kept falling over and had no energy and they weren't having fun. It wasn't until the end of the Key era, and the start of Relics, that this process stopped happening. Many of them after that  did things like equip it on frames that had drains, they'd take damage and suddenly their ability that they'd been maintaining perfectly happily would fall out from under them and they lost all momentum to proceed even on basic lower level content.

Basically, the mod is, to me, bad not just because of the mechanics, which are debatable in either direction if I'm honest, but because of the players that absolutely ruined my enjoyment of the game because they played badly after equipping the mod, forgetting all the basics that we'd taught them because they thought they had figured out something we hadn't.

Players using Quick Thinking is genuinely, in my circle of close acquaintances in the game, an insult to their intelligence. They are, to us, the ones who spend far too long in that 'paint me like one of your French girls' position, waiting for everyone else to do something about them.

And I do say all that with a smile on my face, because, in reality, all the stupidity is something I can look back on and laugh.

There were good times...

And going back to the topic, really, there's no way that DE are going to remove that stagger. It's the punishment for the hubris that just equipping the mod provides.

 

1. You can spam energy pizzas. You can even bind a button for that. They are cheap.
2. There are ways to get around the stagger.
3. There's people out there who is gonna suck, doesn't matter the frame, weapons or mods. For me, it works fine with Mesa or Nova as i don't deal with the staggers. And i rarelly have to use pizzas even then, point 1 is just more of an extreme case.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2018 by ReinAxefury
forum didn't want to post what i wrote lol

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, ReinAxefury said:

• You can spam energy pizzas. You can even bind a button for that. They are cheap.

Oh good, you can compensate for a bad mechanic by spamming a gear item instead XD

11 hours ago, ReinAxefury said:

•  There are ways to get around the stagger.

So why does it need to be removed?

11 hours ago, ReinAxefury said:

 There's people out there who is gonna suck, doesn't matter the frame, weapons or mods.

Heh, you read my anecdote I see ^^

Quick Thinking is along the same lines as Old Zephyr or Old Oberon, or even current Ember. If you are a good player, if you know how to mod and how to play this game, you can take any frame, no matter the state it's in, and use gear and play style to actually succeed.

Heck, I used old Oberon to melee-only my way through Mot Survivals before his rework, without using things like the Ancient Specter to buff me, any Arcanes (because I didn't have them back then), just melee mode on Solo with pre-rework Vazarin for my emergency heal, and achieved a multi-hour time without too much hassle there. And I'm not even classed as a great player by my peers with the same number of years and play time behind them, I'm just capable. And I believe anyone that reaches the same point in the game as I have can do the same.

If you are a good player, you can make bad abilities, bad frames, bad weapons and bad mods work. This does not mean that they are not bad, just that you are better.

But because Quick Thinking is a bad mechanic, at base, it will fail you. And not fail you in the sense that you'll get staggered, hit again, and die anyway, no. In the sense that you will die as everyone does, but when you get revived by your team (or by your Sentinel if you have the right mods), you then have to compensate for the bad position you're in compared to if you just went down the normal way. It gives you a buff, if you know how to use it, but then puts you in a worse position when it fails you, making you an unreliable player when things are actually at a challenging level.

[ReinAxefury]

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Oh good, you can compensate for a bad mechanic by spamming a gear item instead XD

"bad mechanic" -your opinion. Mine is that's just a simple downside that can easily handled, and cheap if you ask me. I mean, if someone is getting downed over and over and spends like a 100 of those, then the problem isn't the mod anyway. Also, Energizing Dash+high effiency or Arcane Energize also work, which ends being even cheaper.

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

So why does it need to be removed?

I never said it should, im not the OP, i just pointed out i can make it work without caring about the downside.

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Heh, you read my anecdote I see ^^

Ofc, i don't think it would make sense to reply to someone without doing so.

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Quick Thinking is along the same lines as Old Zephyr or Old Oberon, or even current Ember. If you are a good player, if you know how to mod and how to play this game, you can take any frame, no matter the state it's in, and use gear and play style to actually succeed. 

Heck, I used old Oberon to melee-only my way through Mot Survivals before his rework, without using things like the Ancient Specter to buff me, any Arcanes (because I didn't have them back then), just melee mode on Solo with pre-rework Vazarin for my emergency heal, and achieved a multi-hour time without too much hassle there. And I'm not even classed as a great player by my peers with the same number of years and play time behind them, I'm just capable. And I believe anyone that reaches the same point in the game as I have can do the same.

If you are a good player, you can make bad abilities, bad frames, bad weapons and bad mods work. This does not mean that they are not bad, just that you are better.

I like to think backwards, the way i see it is more like other frames are just too good. But i don't hate that, something i like of this game is you can challenge yourself if you want but it's not mandatory either.

7 hours ago, Thaylien said:

But because Quick Thinking is a bad mechanic, at base, it will fail you. And not fail you in the sense that you'll get staggered, hit again, and die anyway, no. In the sense that you will die as everyone does, but when you get revived by your team (or by your Sentinel if you have the right mods), you then have to compensate for the bad position you're in compared to if you just went down the normal way. It gives you a buff, if you know how to use it, but then puts you in a worse position when it fails you, making you an unreliable player when things are actually at a challenging level.

1. QT only drains energy when your energy pool is enough to take the damage, if not you just die. I've experienced this a few times when i was new in the game. Most of the times i got downed with QT equipped i still got energy to use skills.
2. It's a defensive mod, i wouldn't consider defensive mods if im trying to look for a challenge considering at that point anything will one-shot anyway.
3. Defensive mods are there as a "fail-safe" control, specially to not have a challenge (or make it easier), and imo that's a good thing as not everything has to be a challenge and not everyone wants a challenge anyway, as i said before, something i like of warframe is that you can choose to challenge yourself, but the game doesn't force you to. Some days i like a challenge, others i just want to play a nice run and chill.