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Fixing Host migration should be NO.1 Priority for DE


DreisterDino
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Hey,

 

type the words "host migration" in the forum search...results are:

"host migration on PoE"

"host migration on Onslaught"

"host migration on Eidolon Hunts"

"host migration on fissure missions"

"host migration on index"

 

In all those gamemodes the players fear the hostmigrations more than anything else.

No one fears the mission itself or that he could fail it if he would continue solo, the fact that at least 50% of the host migration lead to a bug that makes you lose all your rewards and in some instances simply crashes the game (index for example, whenever i had a host migration i just end up with a static screen). All the skins, quality of life changes, new tiles and what not are nice to have, but this is the most annoying thing in the game that leads to frustation. I was doing index for example, i lost 100k Credits now instead of gaining credits because of host migration. Thats not really what is Index is for, or am i wrong? (why i wanted to continue although i basically never had a succesful host migration in the Index? the one time i had 30 points already which would be a good start for the next round, the other time the host decided last second to extract and i couldnt react)

 

This is also the main issue why people get annoyed if other players (hosts) want to leave before them, because while theoretically you have the option to continue, you would be stupid to do so because mostly it makes you lose everything. If you want a happy player base, finally fix this. Imo this is more important than anything else, more important then Melee 3.0, Warframe Reworks, Railjack, Skins, new gamemodes, new weapons... all that is nice but what is it good for if we cant really enjoy the game?

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13 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

You know, host migrations are generally caused by the host or client connection. In both case, devs can't really do much about it.

Yes they can.  They can log how reliable people's connections are, and out of a group of four, pick the one who is least likely to cause issues.

It really isn't a remotely difficult thing to do.  The game already sends a ton of data back to DE's servers at the end of a mission.  Recording who in the group dropped, or if the host dropped before it finished, and logging time spent in missions against number of disconnections would give them all the data they need to pick better hosts.

I don't care if this is coop, and they are using players' systems for hosting.  They have the same obligation to ensure that where the game is being hosted is as reliable as possible, as would be the case if it was running on their own hardware, in a datacenter.

And as a simpler fix, for those who do care about how their connection affects others and would like a way to do something about it, we've been asking for an 'opt out of hosting' option for long enough.

Edited by polarity
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vor 18 Minuten schrieb lukinu_u:

You know, host migrations are generally caused by the host or client connection. In both case, devs can't really do much about it.

Sticking to my Index example:

- everyone leaves at the end of 1 rotation because he chooses to (not because anyone has a bad connection)

- i am the only one left in the "new session"

- i have a frozen screen and cant interact with the game anymore

 

I really fail to see how you can blame the players for the frozen screen bug in which case you only can press alt-f4

Btw: I had a really good ping to the host before the migration, its not like i was playing with a guy from the other side of the world and a 500ms ping.

 

There are maybe a few cases in which you can blame the players (extreme example: if 1 player from europe, 1 from asia, 1 from north america and 1 from australia are playing together....yes there is probably not much you can do to ensure everything works fine), but for the most part there should be a way to make sure that Hostmigrations arent that big of an issue like they are until today.

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17 minutes ago, polarity said:

They can log how reliable people's connections are, and out of a group of four, pick the one who is least likely to cause issues

It's not that simple. A connection might be rock solid in general, but then suddenly when it tries to make a path to a certain ISP somewhere(p2p) the route is suboptimal with packet loss. 

That isn't something DE can detect, nor is it something that DE can fix. That's a routing issue between the ISPs.

There can also be NAT and firewall/port forwarding issues going on that DE cannot fix. Possibly those could be detected though. Depends on how okay you think it is for DE to be snooping your settings.

Edited by Erytroxylin
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22 minutes ago, polarity said:

Yes they can.  They can log how reliable people's connections are, and out of a group of four, pick the one who is least likely to cause issues.
ho do care about how their connection affects others and would like a way to do something about it, we've been asking for an 'opt out of hosting' option for long enough.

6 minutes ago, Erytroxylin said:

It's not that simple. A connection might be rock solid in general, but then suddenly when it tries to make a path to a certain ISP somewhere(p2p) the route is suboptimal with packet loss. 

That isn't something DE can detect, nor is it something that DE can fix. That's a routing issue between the ISPs.

If DE could figure that out, they would be on the wrong business. 

But if they do....oh yes, yes, yes.

Agree with OP, they do need a team dedicated to matchmaking optimization, they've shown all of us, they can do wonders when they choose to.

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I've seen lots of host migration, but in all my time of playing, you can count the number of times this has caused any issues for me on one hand with fingers to spare. 95% of the time you just keep going with the players who are left, or if I'm the cause, then it throws me into a solo game.

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vor einer Stunde schrieb rune_me:

I've seen lots of host migration, but in all my time of playing, you can count the number of times this has caused any issues for me on one hand with fingers to spare. 95% of the time you just keep going with the players who are left, or if I'm the cause, then it throws me into a solo game.

Actually you are right, in "normal" missions host migrations mostly work just fine.

Maybe i should have been more precise: When i said ~50% of the migrations lead to an bug, that was only directed at the gamemodes i listed +Arbitrations which i forgot indeed.

And the fact that certain gamemodes tend to be more fragile to bugs related to host migrations then others is an indicator for me that the Devs can do something about it.

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4 hours ago, Erytroxylin said:

It's not that simple. A connection might be rock solid in general, but then suddenly when it tries to make a path to a certain ISP somewhere(p2p) the route is suboptimal with packet loss. 

That isn't something DE can detect, nor is it something that DE can fix. That's a routing issue between the ISPs.

There can also be NAT and firewall/port forwarding issues going on that DE cannot fix. Possibly those could be detected though. Depends on how okay you think it is for DE to be snooping your settings.

I dont really understand much about this topic, but when i used to play black ops 2 one big problem was the host migration, and people were hyped over black ops 3 because they said host migration wouldnt be a problem anymore.

How did they do it?

And how come royale games can be played with 100 people at the same time with no problems?

Legit question here, i have no idea how those things work

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Pizza_Parker said:

I dont really understand much about this topic, but when i used to play black ops 2 one big problem was the host migration, and people were hyped over black ops 3 because they said host migration wouldnt be a problem anymore.

How did they do it?

And how come royale games can be played with 100 people at the same time with no problems?

Legit question here, i have no idea how those things work

Warframe is "semi" peer-to-peer.  One of the players in the session is also the host.  When that player has internet issues or crashes, then it affects everyone else in the session.

 

Other games solve this problem by running dedicated host servers, which all players in the session then connect to.  When a player has internet issues then it can only affect that player.

The disadvantage of the dedicated host server route is that it's very expensive.  Peer-to-peer scales by definition; the more players there are the most hosts there are.  Dedicated host servers, on the other hand, must be scaled by the service provider, in this case DE.  It requires a huge amount of infrastructure, orders of magnitude more than simple login and account management servers require.

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11 minutes ago, Buff00n said:

Warframe is "semi" peer-to-peer.  One of the players in the session is also the host.  When that player has internet issues or crashes, then it affects everyone else in the session.

 

Other games solve this problem by running dedicated host servers, which all players in the session then connect to.  When a player has internet issues then it can only affect that player.

The disadvantage of the dedicated host server route is that it's very expensive.  Peer-to-peer scales by definition; the more players there are the most hosts there are.  Dedicated host servers, on the other hand, must be scaled by the service provider, in this case DE.  It requires a huge amount of infrastructure, orders of magnitude more than simple login and account management servers require.

I see, thanks.

I would say that having a dedicated host server isnt an option for a F2P game, but we do have fortnite, plus warframe has been around for 5 years now so they might have some money to spare.

But a server like that for only 4 players might not be worth it.

But this would please most of the playerbase since its the worst problem (or maybe second worst since we have the bad plat problem) of this entire game.

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25 minutes ago, (PS4)Pizza_Parker said:

Legit question here, i have no idea how those things work

Okay, here is a grossly oversimplified version of how online games work.

One computer, we will call it the host has the information for the match running. Other computers, we will call clients, connect to the host. The host gets information from the clients about what they are doing, and relays necessary information about the game state to each of the clients.

In a dedicated server design, there is a host, generally supplied by the game developers. In this design, it doesn't matter much what each players connection to each other is, because the host does all the relaying of important data. One player disconnecting typically doesn't impact any others.

In a peer to peer design like warframe, one of the players in the group serves as the host and a client simultaneously. So long as the host stays, it functions largely like a dedicated server in that clients connections to each other aren't important, only their connection to the host matters. If the host leaves, then we go through a host migration to hand over the hosting duties to one of the other clients. Unfortunately, while their connections to the old host were all fine, the remaining  people may not have a stable person that everyone can connect to. 

For example imagine four players A B C D. A has a strong connection to all the others. B had a strong connection to DE and connects fine to A and C but not to D. C and D have fairly weak computers and underwhelming connections. This is okay. So long as A is the host it is fine. Should A leave we get host migration and the algorithm selects B to be the new host because B has the strongest computer/connection of the remaining 3 as measured on DEs end. But, not all of the remaining clients can establish a connection to B so the host migration fails and everyone gets hosed :(.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Erytroxylin said:

Okay, here is a grossly oversimplified version of how online games work.

One computer, we will call it the host has the information for the match running. Other computers, we will call clients, connect to the host. The host gets information from the clients about what they are doing, and relays necessary information about the game state to each of the clients.

In a dedicated server design, there is a host, generally supplied by the game developers. In this design, it doesn't matter much what each players connection to each other is, because the host does all the relaying of important data. One player disconnecting typically doesn't impact any others.

In a peer to peer design like warframe, one of the players in the group serves as the host and a client simultaneously. So long as the host stays, it functions largely like a dedicated server in that clients connections to each other aren't important, only their connection to the host matters. If the host leaves, then we go through a host migration to hand over the hosting duties to one of the other clients. Unfortunately, while their connections to the old host were all fine, the remaining  people may not have a stable person that everyone can connect to. 

For example imagine four players A B C D. A has a strong connection to all the others. B had a strong connection to DE and connects fine to A and C but not to D. C and D have fairly weak computers and underwhelming connections. This is okay. So long as A is the host it is fine. Should A leave we get host migration and the algorithm selects B to be the new host because B has the strongest computer/connection of the remaining 3 as measured on DEs end. But, not all of the remaining clients can establish a connection to B so the host migration fails and everyone gets hosed :(.

 

 

Thanks!

Just wondering if DE cant afford or dont want to waste the money for a dedicated server.

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5 minutes ago, (PS4)Pizza_Parker said:

I see, thanks.

I would say that having a dedicated host server isnt an option for a F2P game, but we do have fortnite, plus warframe has been around for 5 years now so they might have some money to spare.

But a server like that for only 4 players might not be worth it.

But this would please most of the playerbase since its the worst problem (or maybe second worst since we have the bad plat problem) of this entire game.

The question isn't can DE afford it, of course they can, this game is immensely successful, and contrary to some people's perception of the label f2p these games aren't charities and they make a pretty penny from f2p style marketing, which is what f2p is, a style of marketing. What has to be considered is if it is actually worth it to spend on. DE probably saves a decent amount not hosting dedicated servers, and all throughout this games lifetime it hasn't had any apparent hindrance on the games growth. People can say it's a problem, and that they'd prefer otherwise, but without actual action to back it the concern seems hollow. I don't know DE's data so I can't say what it tells them though. 

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Host migration while you are decorating your dojo needs fixed too, or whatever that is.

Im 30 minutes into decorating the dojo and suddenly I get ‘Failed to connect to session. Your being logged out, buh bye.’

Happened to me last night when I was just making a trade in my dojo. Not even decorating...

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Can't they at least use some of their server resource to handle host migration if there's connection problem between host and clients? I mean host migration doesn't happen all the time, and if someone failed to connect to new host then throw them to solo mode, I don't know how much data will there be, but surely much less than hosting a dedicated servers.

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I would not put this as priority #1, but it's the kind of thing that should not be happening as regularly as it does in an online game in 2018. People can find lots of reasons for why it's a difficult problem to fix, but the question is not "how difficult" is it, but rather, "how possible is it"? Most of us have played games where the player hosts connections and had things like this happen. (Mass Effect 3 co-op multiplayer, I'm looking at you.) Nowadays, this problem has shrunk to almost non-existence in most lobby-based games. The technology is there, and it should be a top priority to fix. 

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17 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

What has to be considered is if it is actually worth it to spend on. DE probably saves a decent amount not hosting dedicated servers, and all throughout this games lifetime it hasn't had any apparent hindrance on the games growth. People can say it's a problem, and that they'd prefer otherwise, but without actual action to back it the concern seems hollow. I don't know DE's data so I can't say what it tells them though. 

True, i would be lying if i said that i heard about players who are leaving the game out of frustration cause of host migration, but i guess it all comes down to how far they are willing to go to make the game more enjoyable for their players.

I could be wrong, but right now DE seems to be focused more on quantity over quality.

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13 minutes ago, Kemenril said:

The technology is there, and it should be a top priority to fix. 

There is absolutely something on their end they can do to fix it. I don't know enough about their design infrastructure to make reasonable suggestions, but I can make inferences from evidence in gameplay that there is definitely something that can be done.

As an example, we've all been in matches with laggy hosts where doors wont open for us because of the delay, then the host comes along and it opens just fine for them. That's an example of a symptom of bad host/connection that can absolutely be solved on the software side by DE. If things like that exist, there are certain to be other things less visible but more fundamental to the connection system that can also be adjusted.

Can they resolve the issue entirely? I doubt it with the current infrastructure. But they can without a doubt improve the experience for us and make critical failures less common.

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