Altagraive Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) Spoiler alert! Ok now, one thing I don't quite get is how or why a lot of people are seemingly rustled over the disembodied heads fortuna dwellers wear in their bodies. Yeah it's creepy and squeaky, but considered what we already have in the game for quite some time it seems really tame. It does to me? Let's review what we have already: Game started as horror-esque shooter to begin with. Warframes, at least some of them, are made of people. At least some of them against their will. Valkyr was tortured to the point where her abilities and stats were retroactively changed right into prime version. Operators are children disfigured and twisted by the void, and tortured by the orokin into basically weapons of mass destruction. Yes they are Endless, but being stuck in teenager bodies most likely means they never fully went through puberty, resulting into their nervous and cognitive systems being still those of a child. Some of my japanese animes explore this theme so I have general grasp on how this works. It's horrible. Then we have Rell, the Harrow's Operator, who on top of that went through psyche crushing experience, that lasted for centuries. That's some existential horror right there. Then we have good old Rhino Prime codex entry, heavily suggesting humans-turned-warframes were prone to cannibalism. Sacrifice quest only reinforces that. Then we have orokin towers made out of meat. Most likely cloned meat. Thankfully we don't know if it's animal or human cloned meat. We better not know tbh. Then we have all kinds of horrors related to infested and how it works towards all and any life forms, including humans. And then we have fortuna people, that are basically heads, retaining all their memories, most of their senses, most of their free will (just not actual freedom) and still having hope of getting their bodies back. Especially when your tenno comes in gun blazing. All the while operating pretty badass cybernetic hosts, that can do at least everything human bodies can, if not more. Think of Raiden from Metal Gear Solid 4/Rising. Some of them visibly sporting human-looking arms, legs and bodies. Maybe they are synthetic, but they look real enough, with tattoos and painted nails business, so they might as well indulge in the pleasures of flesh, should free time present itself. Yes they are functionally slaves, but they are having it much better than Rell or any given warframe host. And its our job to win as much of their freedom and bodies back as possible. And tenno tend to do their job pretty goddamn well. YET This particular part of Warframe universe caused the most ripples in the associated internet space since 2nd Dream, and that one was quite positive. I just don't get it? Talking heads are nothing new in fiction, and most certainly are not the squeakiest thing in Warframe to date. Discuss. Edited November 23, 2018 by Altagraive grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tijinga Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Well the other bits of lore you referenced are much more of a "tell" than a "show." We never see the Tenno children being twisted by the void. We were only told that happened. We never saw Valkyr tortured. We were only told that happened. Seeing the aftermath isn't nearly as visceral as seeing the actual event, so Valkyr being literally too angry to die doesn't have much emotional gravity. The Tenno children don't have much emotional sway either. As for Rell, that was a bit creepy, yes, but it wasn't disturbing. Again, we didn't see the part where Rell was tortured for probably centuries before the Man in the Wall manifested as a twisted, shadow version of him. All we saw were the creepy shadows, though they were much more effective at establishing an emotional tone. Notably a familiar brand of creepy thriller. However, in this situation, we are constantly reminded for the thing that is not only horrible but deeply unsettling: the Solaris are enslaved to the point where no part of their person is their own. But even more than this abstract concept, there's something that's just disturbing about the removal of a head and a body continuing on without it. It's weird and strange enough when the robot replacements are in your face, but when the head is suddenly on a chest, it gets even more strange and thus more unsettling. It's sort of like Umbra's alternate helmet. It's creepy both because of the actual aesthetic and because we are constantly reminded of what, or rather who, is under the pretty plating the orokin slapped on. We tend to forget the Warframes are tortured people because they're usually prettied up and painted. This is my theory for why some people, myself included, are so creeped out by the Solaris max standing reveal. I kinda want the option to cover them up at this point. Also, I think something needs correcting regarding the Solaris. They aren't using synthetic bodies. I'm fairly sure they are using their own bodies. That's why repossession is so significant. It's another piece of you that Nef is taking away. Legs lost his actual legs and arms. Not random, fleshy-looking, synthetic arms that were on loan. At least, that's my understanding of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xardis Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 I was puzzeled before I got to max rank - do Corpus have tech to transfer minds into a computer or something, if so why do they waste it on punishing their slaves. The way DE handeled that - one of the best, or even the best way to handle this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliteCreature Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) Altagraive, I completely agree with you. One point that people are forgetting is that, similar to the Mycona people of 'The Glast Gambit' quest (wherein Nef Anyo was also the villain), is that the Solaris, like the Mycona, are just trying to make a living for themselves. It is important to note that they were no forced to be as they are, they chose it. It is implied, through the course of the initial Fortuna Quest, that the Solaris augment themselves with cybernetics so that they can work in the extreme environment of Orb Vallis and, presumably, the rest of Venus. People are combining their overwhelming debt (causing them to be indentured to the Corpus) with the cybernetic enhancements they choose for themselves. Just because people operate and believe differently than you do doesn't mean they have issues, only that you have issues with their lives. Edited November 23, 2018 by EliteCreature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gessie00 Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 (edited) An excellent thread - morality is always an important discussion. I'd say the consciousness being forcibly moved into a cybernetic host, or limbs being forcibly replaced is nothing new - Deus Ex went there already, plus many films and novels before that. And indeed, Warframe is not exactly a happy game - it's just that the public considers horrible violence to be acceptable. And it is, since it's a video game. A few more examples of the deranged Warframe universe: The Lotus is among the most evil characters for not wanting to end the great war (and change pretty much every aspect of the horrid galaxy we seem to find ourselves in). She has the power and therefore responsibility, but chooses to meddle a bit here and there instead. Rather than killing the evil executives behind it all we're mostly just mowing down their arguably innocent slave soldiers. Simaris tortures countless of seemingly conscious digitalized creatures, which is entirely unnecessary for the purpose of gathering information for an extremely advanced AI. His favorite torture instruments are the Tenno, who he attempts to manipulate with a 1960's speech on animal testing. Animals are sold in cages barely larger than their own body, and apparently immortal, to the Tenno as adornments for their twisted pleasure. As pet DNA degenerates while the Tenno is not online we can presume an active pet slowly rots away in utter loneliness, until it is so weak that it cannot function. At least it is put into stasis when hitting rock bottom. Basically, the Tenno just might be the most cruel faction next to the Orokin, and more recently the Corpus. Also, some criticism: Anime, though I adore it as an artform, can't really be used to make assumptions about what it's like to remain a child. 😄 There's some data from real world examples, but that's pretty dark territory for a gaming forum. In short, while being forced to remain a child tends to have a painful reason behind it, the existential experience later on in life isn't necessarily negative based on what I've read. Child-men were considered good advisors and companions in a culture you're no doubt familiar with, and reputedly some of them were quite happy (to be clear, I'm not ignoring the horrible injustices in the majority of cases). Of course, that's not the same as the Tenno's situation, which is obviously horrible - their minds must be soup due to trauma by now. And: Whether flesh is used is not morally relevant unless it houses nerve endings and a consciousness - which by all indications is housed in a brain. I'm not sure if Orokin towers are conscious... 1 hour ago, EliteCreature said: Altagraive, I completely agree with you. One point that people are forgetting is that, similar to the Mycona people of 'The Glast Gambit' quest (wherein Nef Anyo was also the villain), is that the Solaris, like the Mycona, are just trying to make a living for themselves. It is important to note that they were no forced to be as they are, they chose it. It is implied, through the course of the initial Fortuna Quest, that the Solaris augment themselves with cybernetics so that they can work in the extreme environment of Orb Vallis and, presumably, the rest of Venus. People are combining their overwhelming debt (causing them to be indentured to the Corpus) with the cybernetic enhancements they choose for themselves. Just because people operate and believe differently than you do doesn't mean they have issues, only that you have issues with their lives. It is also implied that getting augmented is their only viable choice in life, and also remember the guy who ends up selling MOA's after his body snatching experience. 38 minutes ago, ChaosSabre said: Honestly the biggest problem for me with that reveal was that it made the npcs way less unique. Them being this forced hybrid of machine and human was really a interesting and idea to explore. To find out they are just Krang suits made me go well that's lame. Agreed, this is fascinating sci-fi territory. But as we've seen with the emotional AI's (Cephalons) and timid portrayal of technological advancement, this is more 80's mainstream sci-fi than actual science fiction. I've always been disappointed by that. Edited November 23, 2018 by Gessie00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altagraive Posted November 24, 2018 Author Share Posted November 24, 2018 Yeah Warframe is more of a space fantasy than hard sci-fi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliteCreature Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 @Gessie00 You basically reposted OP's (attempt at) rational debate, but made it as vile sounding as possible. My argument, above, was that the Solaris choose to live on Venus's surface and choose to augment themselves. They could easily leave. Konzu on Cetus mentions his (deceased) uncle being at Eris [speech during Plague Star]. If the, relatively, low tech Ostrons could leave Earth and go to Eris, certainly the Solaris could also go wherever they wish. So they have plenty of other 'viable choices' in life. The Solaris choose to stay on Venus and augment themselves. Heck, they were probably doing it long before Nef Anyo and the Corpus got involved. As for Thursby U-2278/Legs, he seems to be absolutely ecstatic about his augmentations. His whole character becomes far happier after the initial quest, that before/during. My point on all of this is that people are trying to have a morality discussion and complain about how terrible things are. If you ignore human choices, then morality has no point because it is to be applied to human decisions... else you are dealing with a weird form of the trolly problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerberos-3 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 1 hour ago, EliteCreature said: @Gessie00 You basically reposted OP's (attempt at) rational debate, but made it as vile sounding as possible. My argument, above, was that the Solaris choose to live on Venus's surface and choose to augment themselves. They could easily leave. Konzu on Cetus mentions his (deceased) uncle being at Eris [speech during Plague Star]. If the, relatively, low tech Ostrons could leave Earth and go to Eris, certainly the Solaris could also go wherever they wish. So they have plenty of other 'viable choices' in life. The Solaris choose to stay on Venus and augment themselves. Heck, they were probably doing it long before Nef Anyo and the Corpus got involved. As for Thursby U-2278/Legs, he seems to be absolutely ecstatic about his augmentations. His whole character becomes far happier after the initial quest, that before/during. My point on all of this is that people are trying to have a morality discussion and complain about how terrible things are. If you ignore human choices, then morality has no point because it is to be applied to human decisions... else you are dealing with a weird form of the trolly problem. He is happier because he has a shop with things to sell, not because of his new parts. Now he'll actually be able to pay off the cost of his augments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obviousclone Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 I liked their voice filter before rank 5 now that it's unfiltered it feels less cyber-futuristic which is what I like about this game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5H4DE Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Agreed with OP, we've been fully aware of what happens to the debt-slaves, not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening. No one should be asking for DE to mask it just because they can't take the truth of it and it makes then uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5H4DE Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 3 hours ago, EliteCreature said: @Gessie00 You basically reposted OP's (attempt at) rational debate, but made it as vile sounding as possible. My argument, above, was that the Solaris choose to live on Venus's surface and choose to augment themselves. They could easily leave. Konzu on Cetus mentions his (deceased) uncle being at Eris [speech during Plague Star]. If the, relatively, low tech Ostrons could leave Earth and go to Eris, certainly the Solaris could also go wherever they wish. So they have plenty of other 'viable choices' in life. The Solaris choose to stay on Venus and augment themselves. Heck, they were probably doing it long before Nef Anyo and the Corpus got involved. As for Thursby U-2278/Legs, he seems to be absolutely ecstatic about his augmentations. His whole character becomes far happier after the initial quest, that before/during. My point on all of this is that people are trying to have a morality discussion and complain about how terrible things are. If you ignore human choices, then morality has no point because it is to be applied to human decisions... else you are dealing with a weird form of the trolly problem. The Solaris don't exactly have a way to leave for good, you think Nef would allow something like that? If anything, him keeping their bodies is insurance on it's own, as for those that are willing to give up on their organic bodies and just leave as they are, I doubt Nef doesn't have any means to locate them and bring them back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)ShadowBlood89 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 the tenno were put into cryosleep so bodies didn't age Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rastaban75 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 When I reached max standing with Solaris U, I was like... Wait, what? This is... This is... ...neat Besides being a gameplay payoff, which is worthy by itself, the reveal gave a whole new dimension to the people of Fortuna. Before that point I just accepted them as they were without thinking it too much, just as conscious human minds in robotic/hybrid bodies. I agree with OP more or less (good post btw), the story behind Warframe and its people is quite painful and dramatic. It's a story about survival, no matter what the sacrifices are in some cases. In this particular instance it's both slavery and the extreme conditions of Venus that led to Solaris having this appearance. As a science fiction story element it gets my thumbs up. The game as a whole, due to the frantic gameplay and all the layers of Clem (i.e. silly moments), makes us forget most of the time how painful it is for the people of this version of our Solar System to make a living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.SpookSpook Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) All this gore, and I still cannot name my kitgun "Woodpecker", because apparently it is profanity. God I hate DE's hypocritical censorship. Edited November 26, 2018 by Mr.SpookSpook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentMobius Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) On 2018-11-23 at 4:08 PM, Altagraive said: YET This particular part of Warframe universe caused the most ripples in the associated internet space since 2nd Dream, and that one was quite positive. I just don't get it? Talking heads are nothing new in fiction, and most certainly are not the squeakiest thing in Warframe to date. Discuss. Lots of reasons. Warframes may have been initially made of people but now they can be grown fully formed from blueprints and raw materials. What that means for their historic consciousness is still up in the air (Our Umbra was re-created with it's consciousness duplicated, but we don't know what that implies for other Warframes) But all of that happened so long ago it is simply a fact of existence (for our Tenno and the player) Valkyr was always feral, (the players just refuse to accept that, because: heancanon). Regardless, Alad V was punished for his actions. I don't see why the Orokin Tower's composition is an issue, we've know the Orokin were masters of biotech since the beginning, again, facts of the distant past. Rell was turned away by one pre-Tenno, maybe they feel bad about that, but it's unlikely that any of the players are playing that Tenno. What happened to Rell was horrible, but again, happened in the past and ended with his death, it's a closed loop with a character we barely knew. We haven't a clue what, if anything, will happen to the Tenno's bodies now they are out of the Second Dream, nothing canon says we are physically unchanging. By comparison, here and now we have characters we have built some kind of relationship with, revealed to have been reduced to heads in a leased chassis. The reasons it has more impact are pretty simple Familiarity: It's easier to relate to extreme amputation and debt slavery than more abstract horrors. Immediacy: It's happening now, not something that happened a long time ago that everyone is supposedly used to now. Content volume: We get the most character-driven spoken content with these characters that we've ever had for anyone save the Lotus Nothing overly surprising there. Edited November 26, 2018 by SilentMobius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorridaMessor Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) Alexander Belyaev did whole "detached head" thing ages ago with Professor Dowel's Head (nice novel btw https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_Dowell's_Head). I think the problem discussed by OP lies in the head of people who can't stomach anything uncanny. Edited November 26, 2018 by HorridaMessor formating problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gessie00 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, EliteCreature said: @Gessie00 You basically reposted OP's (attempt at) rational debate, but made it as vile sounding as possible. No, I confirmed his assertion and provided more examples to support his case. No need to get snappy. But, I'll oblige - let's see how you deal with a bit of scrutiny. 😄 Quote My argument, above, was that the Solaris choose to live on Venus's surface and choose to augment themselves. They could easily leave. Konzu on Cetus mentions his (deceased) uncle being at Eris [speech during Plague Star]. If the, relatively, low tech Ostrons could leave Earth and go to Eris, certainly the Solaris could also go wherever they wish. So they have plenty of other 'viable choices' in life. You presume that two different places would have to be similar... based on what? Is Texas like Oregon because they're both US states? Also, you presume that Konzu's uncle is not an exception. You might've noticed in life that different people have different experiences. According to your logic, as many American slaves managed to escape their captors, they had "plenty of viable choices in life". See how this is absolutely horrible and unfounded? And, I think you're underestimating just how oppressive a militant group of fanatics can be, especially considering the creed "profit is life". Consider similar real-life groups for a moment, if you dare. And again, there are many references to the Solaris living extremely oppressed lives, void of basic human rights. In combination I think it's safe to say you should be a bit more considerate of the plight of different groups, and the commonality of abuse - you are clearly an optimist, rather than a realist. If the Warframe universe is anything like real life, the Solaris have it bad - real bad. Quote As for Thursby U-2278/Legs, he seems to be absolutely ecstatic about his augmentations. His whole character becomes far happier after the initial quest, that before/during. You missed the point, as Kerberos-3 also mentioned. If anything, him "bouncing back" is a tale of humans' ability to adapt. Life gave him lemons... Quote My point on all of this is that people are trying to have a morality discussion and complain about how terrible things are. If you ignore human choices, then morality has no point because it is to be applied to human decisions... else you are dealing with a weird form of the trolly problem. How are having a morality discussion and "complaining about how terrible things are" incompatible? If anything, that's the most common form in which morality is discussed. 😛 And yes, morality pertains to free will - that's a given. Lastly, if I'm coming on too strong here I apologize. My aim is to show you that morality is important, and must be considered well - not to emotionally upset you. You may view me as overly negative or "trolly", but in reality I care deeply about others and their experiences. It takes effort, and you shouldn't shy away from arguments that displease you. Edited November 26, 2018 by Gessie00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirTobe Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 (edited) Kids these days didn't grow up with Futurama. I just found it all very unexpected, not disturbing. Although I did wonder why everyone seemed to walk around with a box on their chest. Now I know 😄 Edited November 26, 2018 by SirTobe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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