What is a more controversial topic: Leeches, or Difficulty?

[MagPrime]

1 hour ago, Quait said:

There is absolutely a meta for Lua puzzles -- Be Limbo, press [shift], go through the pew pews with no damage

 

1 hour ago, Kyoresh said:

got to stop you there. 9/10 People use guides for those things, removing all Challenge again

Guides and Limbo aren't gonna help you with the wall latching.  

There's one specific puzzle I spent about 3 hours playing, having to do wall latch on lit up panels and couldn't touch the ground, and no, Ivaras zip line didn't count. 

What guide teaches you the coordination without actually doing it?

Read about the how all you want but it takes skill and patience to actually complete the puzzle, which are two things some folks equate challenging content to.

Edited December 17, 2018 by MagPrime

[Obviousclone]

1 hour ago, Quait said:

There is absolutely a meta for Lua puzzles -- Be Limbo, press [shift], go through the pew pews with no damage

uhh limbo doesn't help you with anything beyond maybe spyvault C of pavlov.

 

Everything else (drift challenges, spy vaults) is parkour/knowledge based. Or it's a simon says puzzle (octavia/forma room).

 

I know it's fun to be all "I picked the right tool for the job 🙂  ", but in reality, gearing up is just one small step of the journey. You actually need to play well to get through this and know how to use your tools to be effective. I've seen the majority of lokis/limbos/ivara/octavia/ash players hop into a pub mission with the mentality of "I picked the right warframe, now I win right?" and then they lose because they just do not know that there's way more to it than just clicking the equip button.

[Toran]

If at all I'd say difficulty.

But that's a thing of perspective. A mate of mine really struggles with the game, the movement, the mod concept, the hundreds of weapons etc.

As the AI is lousy and will stay lousy, I don't expect much of difficulty in the future. Mission parameters like reduced energy, eximus enemies etc. aren't a challenge to the huge arsenal of us Master Ninjas. Damage, Kill Count, Time and Efficiency are our "challenges".

With the current system, I see only two options to spice the game up without making it cheesy:

1. Left for Dead/Warhammer Vermintide-style mission type:
   add half a dozen special units with nasty tricks to the horde, the more the merrier. Something that encourages more team play. 
2. Daily/Weekly/Monthly Challenge missions with fixed loadouts and map layout (independent of your MR and personal arsenal, maybe MR5 minimum):
   This takes a bit more work from DE to find the balance for a challenging mission and manually set up the missions. The variety could be huge from beginner frames with a very restricted loadout (when you still knew challenge in Warframe) to your badass MR15+ loadouts (which would showcase the good stuff to new players) and extra hard enemies.
   
   The mission challenge could be anything, really:
   - normal mission types where the fixed loadout and enemies are challenge enough
   - kill a number of enemies in a certain time
   - only headshots count
   - timed parcours mission
   - Operator only mission
   - Archwing parcours
   - K-Drive races / trick challenges
   etc.
   By having a fixed loadout, the challenge would be the same for all. It would strike us where it hurts most: our cheesy arsenal that laughs at any challenge DE has thrown at us so far.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Toran

[SirTobe]

1 hour ago, Kierlak said:

The vast majority of the playerbase isn't asking for a challenging game, now are they?

Lol, are you kidding? The vast majority is not/barely playing at all due to the lack of challenge. This is a constant complain on pretty much every WF related channel. DE relies too much on attracting new players to keep their numbers up, while older players who still very much wants to play but don't have any content that matches their godly gear and skills are forgotten/ignored. I mean, keeping as many players as possible around is a win for everyone, especially in a community and game like this where newbies relies a lot on help from the experienced players to understand and get into the game. 

And it's not about making a challenging game overall, but offering gameplay for all tiers of players. If you like low or medium difficulty, that's fine, you got plenty of missions to choose from. But what about the people who like high difficulty? Why would DE even offer us so many possibilities to achieve godly builds if there's no content to use it for? It makes no sense, and it's preventing the player base from actually growing with new players instead of just compensating for people leaving.

 

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, SirTobe said:

Lol, are you kidding? The vast majority is not/barely playing at all due to the lack of challenge.

You must be fairly new to the forums my fellow Tenno.  in almost every case where DE actually had or added anything that could be considered remotely challenging, the forums had a massive fit each and every time until DE either removed, nerfed, or changed it.  

[SpicyDinosaur]

16 minutes ago, SirTobe said:

Lol, are you kidding? The vast majority is not/barely playing at all due to the lack of challenge. This is a constant complain on pretty much every WF related channel. DE relies too much on attracting new players to keep their numbers up, while older players who still very much wants to play but don't have any content that matches their godly gear and skills are forgotten/ignored. I mean, keeping as many players as possible around is a win for everyone, especially in a community and game like this where newbies relies a lot on help from the experienced players to understand and get into the game. 

And it's not about making a challenging game overall, but offering gameplay for all tiers of players. If you like low or medium difficulty, that's fine, you got plenty of missions to choose from. But what about the people who like high difficulty? Why would DE even offer us so many possibilities to achieve godly builds if there's no content to use it for? It makes no sense, and it's preventing the player base from actually growing with new players instead of just compensating for people leaving.

 

I agree with the previous poster. You just think more people want it because you are going off confirmation biases. And because this typical group tends to be excessively vocal.

 

There's no reason other people shouldn't be able to finish a mission because Mr. Bill has complained about a lack of challenge for the unteenth time.

 

I can't run a 12 hour survival or anything, but I do very much enjoy difficulty. The problem is 95% (completely made up percentage on my end!) of the players out there do not consider what I am able to do as... doable. Even Eidolons, I tell people gimme 30 mins before night and I will get you started, no reason to be nervous. So there's also the intimidation factor for what people perceive as challenging, a lot of people I help only try the eidolons because i advertize it in clan. Yes I no eidolons are no longer, if ever seen as endgame content, but it's an example of the way people approach new stuff.

 

Where some players might want something absurd, raising the challenge would outright exclude a, imo, bigger portion of the playerbase. The player base don't work the same way as in other games, hypothetically an MR 5 can do a high end survival no problemo, where an mr15 might be flailing. t that many, many of them feel overwhelmed with, as opposed to needing more of a challenge.

 

DE has tried very hard to maintain no boring periodic end game stuff that feels like most MMOs. Stuff that becomes tedious and rote imo. This belief comes to me from being in raid guilds in past games.Instead they release things bit by bit, and try to accomodate challenge seeking players periodically.

 

Those players are like black holes of cynicism and want, though. It will probably never be enough.

 

The real issue, and you can see it in the somewhat toxic and bitter comments by people who "want more challenge" as opposed to falling in line with their outlook, is that when challenging things are introduced, you play it for 5 days then toss it aside and demand something new.

 

Why not equip all that dragon keys (except maybe hobble unless you want that too,) since you can equip them all at once now. Then see how well you do and come back to us with a report on the issue.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

Those players are like black holes of cynicism and want, though. It will probably never be enough.

I love this line.  May I have your permission to steal it for future use, please? 

[Fire2box]

I have zero idea what DE can do in making a system to detect leaching vs being carried by a friend (taxi to locked sortie stages, leveling on hydron at the start of the game, etc). 

As for difficulty, doesn't really matter and DEs clearly not caring about how easy stuff is for "endgame" players whatever we classify that as now (doing arby's, sorties, eidolons?)

 

I think the bigger question is updates for newbies vs updates for veterans of Warframe. Because both camps have strong cases for TLC.  

[SpicyDinosaur]

6 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I love this line.  May I have your permission to steal it for future use, please? 

of course!

[Makunogo]

where are the people who came into the game cus it looked fun? is that a dying breed?

Difficulty fades over time(repetition). everyone has a different definition of difficult as well.

Leeches is virtually impossible to get rid (without a negative impact on "legit" players)

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Makunogo

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

where are the people who came into the game cus it looked fun?

Here I am.  😄

2 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

Difficulty fades over time(repetition). everyone has a different definition of difficult as well.

TRUTH!

3 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

Leeches is virtually impossible to get rid (without a negative impact on "legit" players)

Hence one of the many reasons I solo a lot.  

[Kierlak]

47 minutes ago, SirTobe said:

Lol, are you kidding? The vast majority is not/barely playing at all due to the lack of challenge. This is a constant complain on pretty much every WF related channel. DE relies too much on attracting new players to keep their numbers up, while older players who still very much wants to play but don't have any content that matches their godly gear and skills are forgotten/ignored. I mean, keeping as many players as possible around is a win for everyone, especially in a community and game like this where newbies relies a lot on help from the experienced players to understand and get into the game. 

And it's not about making a challenging game overall, but offering gameplay for all tiers of players. If you like low or medium difficulty, that's fine, you got plenty of missions to choose from. But what about the people who like high difficulty? Why would DE even offer us so many possibilities to achieve godly builds if there's no content to use it for? It makes no sense, and it's preventing the player base from actually growing with new players instead of just compensating for people leaving.

 

 

Stop dangling off LifeofRio's zenistar and get out of his little echo chamber. Most of the people playing this game are muddling their way through, guessing and wiki diving to figure out whatever little issue has sprung up this week/this day/this hour. They are certainly not going "Boy, I sure do wish everything was harder," as they try and figure out wtf their 80+% status shotgun is underperforming in such an extreme way, or why their molecular prime goes like 10 feet and stops, or why that cool new +120% slash mod doesn't seem to be doing anything to their slash procs.

 

This is a farming game. It will never be a skill based, challenge laden extravaganza where only the most elite gamers can survive, and everyone else dies IRL because it's just to extreme for them to handle. It will never even have a satisfactory challenging mode stuck off a corner, and for two main reasons. 1: The foundation of the game was never meant for it, and 2: The developers are simply not good enough to bend this game engine and scripting into a 'challenging' mode that doesn't suck, because the only tools they have are bigger enemy damage die in 1 shot, bullet sponge enemies take forever to kill, or annoying mechanics that make everything tedious and unfun. You would NEVER be satisfied with anything they come up with for 'challenge', because you haven't been satisfied with the things they already HAVE come up with.

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

They are certainly not going "Boy, I sure do wish everything was harder," as they try and figure out wtf their 80+% status shotgun is underperforming in such an extreme way, or why their molecular prime goes like 10 feet and stops, or why that cool new +120% slash mod doesn't seem to be doing anything to their slash procs.

This is because almost none of the YTers explain or even show the importance of status chance.  Combine that with how Warframe Builder completely ignores it and you can start to easily see why some might miss the reasons for different things.  

6 minutes ago, Kierlak said:

You would NEVER be satisfied with anything they come up with for 'challenge', because you haven't been satisfied with the things they already HAVE come up with.

I can agree with this statement if not the reasoning behind it. 

[Acos]

I don't think I've ever really noticed anyone leeching, and I doubt I would care very much if they were. Difficulty is more important to me since I care more about gameplay than making sure somebody isn't getting rewarded for playing a video game. 

[Makunogo]

5 minutes ago, Acos said:

I don't think I've ever really noticed anyone leeching, and I doubt I would care very much if they were. Difficulty is more important to me since I care more about gameplay than making sure somebody isn't getting rewarded for playing a video game. 

yes the leeching is more of a bandwagon topic that has popped up from people in PUB fortuna ( cant help but chuckle)

[MagPrime]

6 minutes ago, Acos said:

I don't think I've ever really noticed anyone leeching, and I doubt I would care very much if they were. Difficulty is more important to me since I care more about gameplay than making sure somebody isn't getting rewarded for playing a video game. 

I've noticed a few over the yeafs but, as long as they aren't d!cks about it, it's not like most of the games content requires a full team to complete the mission objective.  Plus most missions move so fast, I dont even notice who's still at the start line most of the time. 

[Makunogo]

2 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

I've noticed a few over the yeafs but, as long as they aren't d!cks about it, it's not like most of the games content requires a full team to complete the mission objective.  Plus most missions move so fast, I dont even notice who's still at the start line most of the time. 

THIS SO HARD. 😂😂 sometimes people are done the bounty before i get there. like i actually wanna use the K Drive but most people mindset is get the bounty done asap (which is fine) but if they b1tch at me for using the k drive i dont even respond lol

[(PSN)KatyPerryIsMine]

To me leeches are the larger issue of the two going into a mission or bounty and having one person standing around doing nothing or moving side to side every minute and not helping is not useful and hurts the game because the rest of us have to pick up their slack. Difficulty on the other hand is handled poorly in this game the enemies scale something awful your weapon can be fully modded and formaed and there will come a point where it will stop killing enemies in a effective manner also past level 65 i would say your war frame begins to get one shot by anything and with the amount of enemies on screen at any given time you will go down over and over and over again. Health mods shield mods vigor etc will not help so i have just stopped bothering with them on most frames. To me difficulty is about enemy variety what attacks they have rather than the raw damage they do one shotting the player is not difficulty that is just frustrating and ruins the flow of game play. I love a challenge but even in dark souls or devil may cry or any other game i can list would being one shot be fun or a good way to handle a challenge. To me challenge should lay in your objective and the attacks and types and amounts of enemies you face rather than you doing less damage and them doing a truckton more.

[Makunogo]

honestly i think the leech issue is being heavily inflated. its not nearly as bad as the forums have been making it out to be. 

its also slightly toxic in my opinion essnetially if someone isn't going nuts on enemies they are leeching..?  is a bit dramatic.

there is times i have literally none or a small  damage % but i never leech. but you can bet people have been like " im gonna report you" or "wow high mr n00bs" 

despite my CC being the reason they got the mission done in the first place 🤣

especially in bounties. there is hardly any killing that needs to be done. you can get through most missions with CC unless it specifically requires a kill count 

and that kill count is pretty low ( that needs to change along with a base increase in spawn imo ) 

so i in fact can stand there in most of the bounties cus honestly not much needs to be done in most of them. 

this is more true for cast frames (gara/frost/limbo/octavia/ect) 

they dont need to move to control the playing field but they generally do not have the most damage if any.

now someone who is just standing around doing nothing is just a d*ck im not referring to those people.

[Kierlak]

11 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

honestly i think the leech issue is being heavily inflated.

 

It's not, because the problem isn't the amount of it. The problem is that the leechers leech with 100% impunity. You can't do anything to punish them. Reports do nothing, and there is no vote kick. You can't even ignore them and prevent being put in the same group with them again.

[RX-3DR]

8 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

now someone who is just standing around doing nothing is just a d*ck im not referring to those people.

But this is what most people are referring to. The people who have joined a mission with no intent to actually play the mission. A lot of people have made the distinction clear that someone struggling to keep up is not who they're referring to. Whether or not they're fishing or mining is not the problem, the fact is, they have selected a bounty with no intention of actually doing anything for it and are being rewarded for taking up a player slot.

Perhaps you're lucky that you don't run into them frequently but there are others who do not share such luck. Personally, I've seen one person not moving from the gate in maybe 4 out of 5 games during Cetus bounties when they put in unvaulted Relics in the drop table.

[SirTobe]

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I agree with the previous poster. You just think more people want it because you are going off confirmation biases. And because this typical group tends to be excessively vocal.

 

There's no reason other people shouldn't be able to finish a mission because Mr. Bill has complained about a lack of challenge for the unteenth time.

 

I can't run a 12 hour survival or anything, but I do very much enjoy difficulty. The problem is 95% (completely made up percentage on my end!) of the players out there do not consider what I am able to do as... doable. Even Eidolons, I tell people gimme 30 mins before night and I will get you started, no reason to be nervous. So there's also the intimidation factor for what people perceive as challenging, a lot of people I help only try the eidolons because i advertize it in clan. Yes I no eidolons are no longer, if ever seen as endgame content, but it's an example of the way people approach new stuff.

 

Where some players might want something absurd, raising the challenge would outright exclude a, imo, bigger portion of the playerbase. The player base don't work the same way as in other games, hypothetically an MR 5 can do a high end survival no problemo, where an mr15 might be flailing. t that many, many of them feel overwhelmed with, as opposed to needing more of a challenge.

 

DE has tried very hard to maintain no boring periodic end game stuff that feels like most MMOs. Stuff that becomes tedious and rote imo. This belief comes to me from being in raid guilds in past games.Instead they release things bit by bit, and try to accomodate challenge seeking players periodically.

 

Those players are like black holes of cynicism and want, though. It will probably never be enough.

 

The real issue, and you can see it in the somewhat toxic and bitter comments by people who "want more challenge" as opposed to falling in line with their outlook, is that when challenging things are introduced, you play it for 5 days then toss it aside and demand something new.

 

Why not equip all that dragon keys (except maybe hobble unless you want that too,) since you can equip them all at once now. Then see how well you do and come back to us with a report on the issue.

That "typical group" you're referring to is not what I'm talking about. It's what can be read everywhere, in forums, in chat, on discord, from random players ingame, clans, livestreams and social media, etc. It is constant and everywhere, a running joke, hardly just a "group". The minorities arguing here are irrelevant, as it's the big "silent" majority I'm talking about. I understand and can relate to this since I recently reached that same point and are scrambling reasons to keep going. 

I think you are missing the point entirely though. It is all about progression. The whole definition of "endgame" is that it's not meant to be played until late in the game. By then you are more than enough invested into the game (hundreds of hours) to not let harder content scare you away, so that is not an issue. A new player or a mid-game player can't be mad about him/her not being able to finish or even have access to these kind of missions, because he/she has not reached that level in the game yet. Just keep playing and improving your gear, and you'll eventually reach that level as well. It's like PoE for a new player, a complete brutal experience that you simply have to come back to later on. Nothing new, really. 

If you're the kind of player that simply don't like more intense challenges, then this may simply not be your thing. As I said earlier, that is okay, there is plenty of other content for you to play instead. Does everyone play and enjoy Conclave? Nope. Does everyone play and enjoy Archwing? Nope. Does everyone play and enjoy Defection? Nope. You don't have to be part of everything in the game to enjoy it. Warframe can be big enough for us all, can it not?

Also, just for clarification. I never referred to endurance runs. Since Arbitrations most people clearly don't want to spend more than a half hour in in one session, at least not for just shooting mindless waves of enemies.

And please, don't compare this to running around with dragon keys. Endgame is not about gimping yourself, but to challenge your best setups, and motivate you to keep improving and exploring new tweaks and techniques. Pretty much the same we do throughout the whole game up until that point where the content can't keep up anymore.

 

4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

You must be fairly new to the forums my fellow Tenno.  in almost every case where DE actually had or added anything that could be considered remotely challenging, the forums had a massive fit each and every time until DE either removed, nerfed, or changed it.  

That's DE not having balls enough to stick to the original concept/purpose, not exactly a new phenomenon in the industry. If a gamemode is meant to be a challange, for people who want a challange, than that is what it must be, despite what new and bad players may say. DE have their own QA team who play the game all days long, who should know what's a challange and what's not. It's too much junior soccer with the community feedback, where apparently everyone has to be a winner. 

 

1 hour ago, Kierlak said:

 

Stop dangling off LifeofRio's zenistar and get out of his little echo chamber. Most of the people playing this game are muddling their way through, guessing and wiki diving to figure out whatever little issue has sprung up this week/this day/this hour. They are certainly not going "Boy, I sure do wish everything was harder," as they try and figure out wtf their 80+% status shotgun is underperforming in such an extreme way, or why their molecular prime goes like 10 feet and stops, or why that cool new +120% slash mod doesn't seem to be doing anything to their slash procs.

 

This is a farming game. It will never be a skill based, challenge laden extravaganza where only the most elite gamers can survive, and everyone else dies IRL because it's just to extreme for them to handle. It will never even have a satisfactory challenging mode stuck off a corner, and for two main reasons. 1: The foundation of the game was never meant for it, and 2: The developers are simply not good enough to bend this game engine and scripting into a 'challenging' mode that doesn't suck, because the only tools they have are bigger enemy damage die in 1 shot, bullet sponge enemies take forever to kill, or annoying mechanics that make everything tedious and unfun. You would NEVER be satisfied with anything they come up with for 'challenge', because you haven't been satisfied with the things they already HAVE come up with.

Jeez, you're making a lot of silly assumptions here. First of all I don't give a damn about Rio and his endless complaints. What I say is only based on my own experience of the game and interactions with the community surrounding it, and as shockingly as it might sound, I do tend to agree with the people pointing out that there is nothing engaging enough to do later in the game. Not because I like to complain about things, but because I want to keep playing. 

Yes, it is a farming game, but what are we farming for? Just for the sake of farming? There need to be a goal with it all, and we had goals throughout the starchart and some after that, but then you hit empty space. You still have things to improve with your gear and focus, but for what? That's when many just drop it, and that's where I'm starting to struggle now as well.

Saying that the engine, "foundation of the game", or their tools wasn't meant for this must be the most ridiculous thing I've read here so far. I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant for open worlds and ship-to-ship combat either, but oh wow, look at where we are. That's what we call development. I am not talking about some major change in the game though. They pretty much already have all the pieces, they just have to make more use of them by putting them together for different modes and balance it properly for high tier. With that said, I've certainly been satisfied with the challenge of the game up until this point, so I have no complaints with that part. They introduced some great assets with Fortuna that can be of good use to make Arbitrations more interesting, for example.

Now get your head out of you butt please. You're embarrassing yourself.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

> that moment when you're a mostly Solo player that enjoys the power fantasy, so doesn't belong to either camp. guess that just means I'm here to watch and eat popcorn until the thread locks. I will say this though:

 I'd probably side more towards hating leechers than caring about difficulty, but we all know pigs will fly before DE puts in an inherently-flawed kick system and/or releases any content that's actually challenging without the community proceeding to complain about it. it's a cycle: community wants challenge > DE attempts challnege > people complain it's not hard enough/too hard and/or the rewards suck > DE try to improve it > complaints keep coming > DE feels they wasted their time and think "why even bother?". then at some point they'll think of another idea for high-level content and then we're back to where we were before. it's happened with Sorties, it's happened with ESO, it's happened with Arbitrations. it will ALWAYS happen.

so as far as I can see, they've decided to say "forget this" and stick to what they're good at; power fantasy. and warframe continues to grow, so nobody can say this approach doesn't work; they can only say that this approach doesn't suit their own desires for the game.

[kgabor]

I wonder when will DE realise people on the forum and social media are a minority and their opinion doesn't represent the whole community when they say we have to keep the game as boring as possible for the 'power fantasy' with no challenge.

Probably never.

Other games have polls in game you can't ignore/are given an incentive to complete or at least forum polls.

I wonder what people's endgame is with cheesy builds, what are they trying to achieve?

I personally sometimes use cheesy builds to speedfarm more interesting items but i never set the use of cheesy meta as an endgame goal.

Pressing 4. to nuke the map gets boring.

[Cuchullin]

One thing to be aware of is the definitions of difficulty/leeching has yet to be clearly defined in warframe. I mean for difficulty I've heard vets call for harder content but very little on what that harder content is. Is it the scaling, the reward system, the replay-ability, a combination of all three? If it's any of these or none what would you consider to be "endgame" content enough for you that can be widely accepted by the community vets and yet can be reached by those who are not experienced meta masters.

As for leeching again this is technically more defined the difficulty but I personally have been called a leecher for not having the best gear available and not speed running the entire map while nuking everything in my sight. (If it's not obvious at this point I'm an average middle of the road casual player at best). My point here is that yes there are those players who will actively mess around or not take part in missions to fish or whatever and that's clearly leeching but for those who are trying to take part but for whatever reason can't keep up with experienced players or get stuck on terrain can very easily get tarred with the same brush. And this was on public settings for me so take that for what it's worth.

All in all the community is large enough that you can probably find people that you can work with to create a level of difficulty or minimize leeching but in trying to cater to everyone for one and eliminate the other will just end up annoying everyone and can't reach a complete agreement on what it is in any case.