The time has come. Primed Streamline

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

1 hour ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Another funny thing about mods and damage and resistances and enemy EHP:

 

The way that mods work in Warframe, and have worked in Warframe for a very, very long time, is pants on head, gibberingly insane. The fact that we can add three mods which then quintuple a weapon’s damage output, the fact that a single base health mod adds several frigging times the base health of a ‘frame...that’s bonkers and was always, always going to result in a game that’s stupidly hard to balance and where high level gear becomes literally hundreds and hundreds of times more powerful than low level gear.

 

If instead, right from the word go, all weapons and ‘frames were designed so that when fully leveled but at base unmodded stats, they would operate at about seventy percent of the desired combat level, and damage mods instead did things like “+20% Damage” and “Convert 20% of Damage Into Viral”, as well as being based around playstyles such as a pair of mutually exclusive mods where one is “+20% Damage to Scoped Shots” and the other is “+20% Damage to Un-Scoped Shots”...we’d be in a much saner place right now in terms of power creep and how that relates to enemies and enemy challenge in development and design.

 

tl;dr nerf all mods down to giving benefits in reasonable increments instead of completely transforming a piece of crap gear into a nuke, as well as rewarding playstyle choices and tactics and then re-design enemies and missions accordingly, so that power creep on both sides can be handled sensibly.

Or, you can let other people have their power fantasy, customize your builds to suit your playstyle, or go play something else.

 

Nobody is forcing you to min max your builds.

[BornWithTeeth]

45 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Or, you can let other people have their power fantasy, customize your builds to suit your playstyle, or go play something else.

 

Nobody is forcing you to min max your builds.

That's not a good reading of my post, to be honest. What I said has nothing to do with 'nerfing everything and making Warframe really hard', it has to do with the degree to which giving everything really low base stats and then making mods give benefits in increments of hundreds of percent creates an accelerating BIG NUMBERS power creep problem, especially when combined with my previous observation that Endless Missions are actually kind of a bad (brainless, repetitive, cheesy) way of implementing a challenge.

 

You can absolutely have a power fantasy of playing a hypercompetent space ninja with a game system where everything has decent baseline stats which you then tweak to suit your playstyle and preferences by installing the mods you prefer, rather than simply packing in as many Plus % To Everything mods as will fit. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by BornWithTeeth

[(PSN)Silverback73]

27 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That's not a good reading of my post, to be honest. What I said has nothing to do with 'nerfing everything and making Warframe really hard', it has to do with the degree to which giving everything really low base stats and then making mods give benefits in increments of hundreds of percent creates an accelerating BIG NUMBERS power creep problem, especially when combined with my previous observation that Endless Missions are actually kind of a bad (brainless, repetitive, cheesy) way of implementing a challenge.

It’s funny...a “psychology of effect” phenomenon, methinks.

When it comes to personal, statistical progression, big jumps from a low number  encourage a person to keep progressing as they feel more rewarded and powerful from them.

When it comes to damage, the opposite is generally true.  People feel more rewarded by seeing smaller, more numerous tiks paint the screen with continuous feedback as enemies fall before your relentless assault.

Edited January 15, 2019 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Kokomala]

16 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Anyone mention that Efficiency is a capped attribute yet?

 

Efficiency is not a capped attribute. The UI displays a 75% cap as abilities have a 25% minimum energy cost.

This is important for duration based drain abilities. At 40% duration, you need 90% efficiency to reach the 25% minimum drain cost. 

[Furybone]

36 minutes ago, Kokomala said:

Efficiency is not a capped attribute. The UI displays a 75% cap as abilities have a 25% minimum energy cost.

This is important for duration based drain abilities. At 40% duration, you need 90% efficiency to reach the 25% minimum drain cost. 

Pretty much this. a lot of people don't know this or don't understand what primed streamline would actually do to the game.

They all complain about blind rage but prime streamline would just allow us to slot a max rank blind rage and still maintain 25% energy costs. This would require pax bolt from a kitgun but I'm fine with using that for uber renewal.

I guess nearly 120 health per second with almost 1000 armor from renewal while still using umbral mods is something i could dig.

Edited January 15, 2019 by Furybone

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Kokomala said:

Efficiency is not a capped attribute. The UI displays a 75% cap as abilities have a 25% minimum energy cost.

This is important for duration based drain abilities. At 40% duration, you need 90% efficiency to reach the 25% minimum drain cost. 

Efficiency is capped per the devs and has been for years now.

It's not a UI error...They purposely capped Efficiency to ensure, as you noted, all abilities have a minimum energy cost of 25%.

If your experience has differed do please let me know and provide proofs because that sounds more like a bug than an updated feature.

 

I think what you are saying is that you can mod for more than that and you certainly can.

The rest would be diminishing returns though...which means taking up mod slots for little effect imo. 

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Padre_Akais

[Furybone]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Efficiency is capped per the devs and has been for years now.

It's not a UI error...They purposely capped Efficiency to ensure, as you noted, all abilities have a minimum energy cost of 25%.

If your experience has differed do please let me know and provide proofs because that sounds more like a bug than an updated feature.

 

I think what you are saying is that you can mod for more than that and you certainly can.

The rest would be diminishing returns though...which means taking up mod slots for little effect imo. 

 

get a warframe with a channeled ability like oberon's renewal.

Equip fleeting expertise an no other mods. Check abilities with and without mods. you will notice that the cost of the ability does not change. This is because you use 40% of the energy 2.5 times per second. (.4 x 2.5 = 1)

now equip a partially ranked streamline such that it gives you 15% efficiency allowing you to reach exactly 75%. Once again, check abilities with and without mods.

At this point, replace the partially ranked streamline with a fully ranked one. and you will see a change.

10% of the base energy cost will be drained every .4 seconds, so .1 X 2.5 = .25 which is 25% of the base cost. This shows that efficiency is not "capped" at 75% for abilities that also scale with duration.

 

In this example, assuming we had a prime streamline we would get 25% more efficiency and with the 30% we get from the kitgun arcane Pax Bolt we would be able to slot a fully ranked blind rage without dropping below 75% efficiency, even with 40% duration.

If a mod like this was released you would be able to slot pretty much every power strength mod on valkyr prime along with fleeting and prime streamline without having to forma the frame unless you wanted to squeeze in power drift. The result would be something along the lines of 379% power strength and a cost of 1.25 energy per second to stay in hysteria.

It would be wise to drop intensify for narrow minded, and forma a few times so you can also fit power drift and prime continuity to get your duration up to around 150% so eternal war remains effective.

 

this happens because the game consumes X energy over Y duration. so fleeting alone does nothing. Narrow minded or any other way to get 200% duration will also reduce the drain per second, as you use 5 energy per 2 seconds, not 1 second. (would display 2.5)

this works for pretty much every channeled ability with the exception of equinox's pacify and provoke. Pacify uses X energy per second per mob in the radius. Duration does not matter in this case.

 

Pretty much, this build would be able to reach about 300% strength which works out to be 120 health per second (Little more actually) with around 600 armor while maintaining the lowest possible energy cost thanks to "prime" streamline and pax bolt. or 100 health per second and 500 armor if you drop energy conversion for rage/adrenaline

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Furybone

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

5 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That's not a good reading of my post, to be honest. What I said has nothing to do with 'nerfing everything and making Warframe really hard', it has to do with the degree to which giving everything really low base stats and then making mods give benefits in increments of hundreds of percent creates an accelerating BIG NUMBERS power creep problem, especially when combined with my previous observation that Endless Missions are actually kind of a bad (brainless, repetitive, cheesy) way of implementing a challenge.

 

You can absolutely have a power fantasy of playing a hypercompetent space ninja with a game system where everything has decent baseline stats which you then tweak to suit your playstyle and preferences by installing the mods you prefer, rather than simply packing in as many Plus % To Everything mods as will fit. 

Reread my post. Then try again.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Efficiency is capped per the devs and has been for years now.

It's not a UI error...They purposely capped Efficiency to ensure, as you noted, all abilities have a minimum energy cost of 25%.

If your experience has differed do please let me know and provide proofs because that sounds more like a bug than an updated feature.

 

I think what you are saying is that you can mod for more than that and you certainly can.

The rest would be diminishing returns though...which means taking up mod slots for little effect imo. 

 

The cap only applies to the regular casting cost. For channeling costs efficiency can go beyond the 75% cap to make up for negative duration. So with a primed streamline you could go even lower than 40% duration and still maintain the lowest energy drain possible from channeled skills.

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

@Furybone and @SneakyErvin

I think I get it...I am going to have to consult my tax advisor though.😃

 

Is it working as intended in that respect? 

 

 

 

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

@Furybone and @(XB1)ECCHO SIERRA

Thank you. I was seriously, seriously afraid that people were neglecting toggle abilities where efficiency is regarded as a mechanic beyond the capped 75% cast cost on abilities. Efficiency still functions beyond that threshold where energy drain is a concern.

[Furybone]

44 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

@Furybone and @SneakyErvin

I think I get it...I am going to have to consult my tax advisor though.😃

 

Is it working as intended in that respect? 

 

 

yes. you can reduce the cost of abilities by 75%. so you can say its "capped" at that but this shows otherwise. functionally its the same.

you could do the same thing with 100% duration and exactly 175% efficiency.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Furybone

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Furybone said:

yes. you can reduce the cost of abilities by 75%. so you can say its "capped" at that but this shows otherwise. functionally its the same.

you could do the same thing with 100% duration and exactly 175% efficiency.

It either is or it is not.

if it is not...Then the question remains to whether it is working as intended imo.

It won't be the first time issues like this have cropped up due to how stuff got calculated.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

It either is or it is not.

if it is not...Then the question remains to whether it is working as intended imo.

It won't be the first time issues like this have cropped up due to how stuff got calculated.

... This has been working as intended since Oberon’s Renewal before his rework, or Banshee with her regular Soundquake...

[DerGreif2]

We cant have p streamline because of power creep reasons. They even tested it. Why do people who do max 20 min survivials want to be gods at 90 min missions? We already have to to much energie. Dont make this problem worse...

[Rakosta_Kai]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

... This has been working as intended since Oberon’s Renewal before his rework, or Banshee with her regular Soundquake...

K.

I, personally, don't require convincing... And you wouldn't be equipped to convince me even if I did.

The ticks clearly aren't capped...Is that working as intended or not? I don't know.

I haven't seen anything cited saying it is or isn't working as intended...I can plainly see that it's happening though.

With no offense to you...Unless you work for DE, you telling me it is tells me nothing.

 

[Jaysus41]

Primed Streamline would be good, or any other new mod that offered efficiency.Consider this, we haven't had any new mods with efficiency on it since 20 - Fricken - 13

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

K.

I, personally, don't require convincing... And you wouldn't be equipped to convince me even if I did.

The ticks clearly aren't capped...Is that working as intended or not? I don't know.

I haven't seen anything cited saying it is or isn't working as intended...I can plainly see that it's happening though.

With no offense to you...Unless you work for DE, you telling me it is tells me nothing.

 

“Warframe Changes

Toggled Abilities and Energy Drain:  The following adjustments have been made to Abilities that can toggle on or off with the intention of making each Ability more rewarding to use in a wider range of scenarios.  We will continue to monitor the balance of all Toggled Abilities after launch.

Duration Mods now have an effect on toggled Abilities.

For example: Mods that added 100% duration will make a 10 Energy drain become a 5 Energy drain.

Drain-Per-Second and other adjustments has been made on the following Toggled Abilities:

[...]

The minimum energy cost of an Ability cannot go below 25% of the base cost.”

As per @Furybone‘s example with Oberon, this was intended regarding the duration/efficiency energy drain relationship with toggle abilities.

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

@Furybone and @SneakyErvin

I think I get it...I am going to have to consult my tax advisor though.😃

 

Is it working as intended in that respect? 

Yep working as intended.

edit: To make it more clear, there isnt really a cap of 175% efficiency, there is however a cap on costs not being able to go lower than 25% of initial cost, that goes for casting costs and channel costs. However, channeled skills are effected by both duration and efficiency so you have two different ways to reach the 25% cap, either by more efficiency and lower dura or more dura and lower efficiency. Currently the lowest we can go is 40% dura since we cant get more than +90% efficiency.

Edited January 16, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

“Warframe Changes

Toggled Abilities and Energy Drain:  The following adjustments have been made to Abilities that can toggle on or off with the intention of making each Ability more rewarding to use in a wider range of scenarios.  We will continue to monitor the balance of all Toggled Abilities after launch.

Duration Mods now have an effect on toggled Abilities.

For example: Mods that added 100% duration will make a 10 Energy drain become a 5 Energy drain.

Drain-Per-Second and other adjustments has been made on the following Toggled Abilities:

[...]

The minimum energy cost of an Ability cannot go below 25% of the base cost.”

As per @Furybone‘s example with Oberon, this was intended regarding the duration/efficiency energy drain relationship with toggle abilities.

That means it's capped...

This is literally what I said in the first place...

On 2019-01-14 at 6:46 PM, Padre_Akais said:

Anyone mention that Efficiency is a capped attribute yet?

 

 

15 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Efficiency is capped per the devs and has been for years now.

It's not a UI error...They purposely capped Efficiency to ensure, as you noted, all abilities have a minimum energy cost of 25%.

If your experience has differed do please let me know and provide proofs because that sounds more like a bug than an updated feature.

...Ya'll are actually making my head hurt at this point.

Did it stop being capped or not?

All your cited source is saying is that "Yes...It is capped."

Which means if it isn't.... It's not working as intended.

I completely understand the relation between low duration pulses on toggle abilities and how the efficiency seems higher. Over a set interval the amount still shouldn't be going under the 25% minimum though.

My question regards whether that is not in place anymore.

If it is in place... it's still capped and abilities can't cost less than 25% (even if that 25% is split out over multiple intervals).

If it is not still in place....It is not capped and they can cost less than 25%.

If it is not still in place and, as such,  is no longer capped...Is that working as intended.

All you are doing is disagreeing with me and telling me I am right in the same sentence imo.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

50 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

That means it's capped...

This is literally what I said in the first place...

 

...Ya'll are actually making my head hurt at this point.

Did it stop being capped or not?

All your cited source is saying is that "Yes...It is capped."

Which means if it isn't.... It's not working as intended.

I completely understand the relation between low duration pulses on toggle abilities and how the efficiency seems higher. Over a set interval the amount still shouldn't be going under the 25% minimum though.

My question regards whether that is not in place anymore.

If it is in place... it's still capped and abilities can't cost less than 25% (even if that 25% is split out over multiple intervals).

If it is not still in place....It is not capped and they can cost less than 25%.

If it is not still in place and, as such,  is no longer capped...Is that working as intended.

All you are doing is disagreeing with me and telling me I am right in the same sentence imo.

The context of the discussion was within the boundaries of over-efficiency affecting toggle abilities and its energy drain.

The reality, and it always has been regardless of the discussion no matter what you are pushing for regardless of the reason (see Furybone’s images, again), is that efficiency on ability casts are capped at 175% of the ability’s cast cost. Be it that 175% efficiency was implemented or 190% efficiency was used, the images shown on the Abilities UI still showed the base cast costs down to 25%.

For whatever reason you are confusing yourself with a scenario that cannot inherently happen, where abilities can be casted at a cost below the 25% base cost threshold.

Proving you right is not how I would ascertain this situation.

[Rakosta_Kai]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

The context of the discussion was within the boundaries of over-efficiency affecting toggle abilities and its energy drain.

The reality, and it always has been regardless of the discussion no matter what you are pushing for regardless of the reason (see Furybone’s images, again), is that efficiency on ability casts are capped at 175% of the ability’s cast cost. Be it that 175% efficiency was implemented or 190% efficiency was used, the images shown on the Abilities UI still showed the base cast costs down to 25%.

For whatever reason you are confusing yourself with a scenario that cannot inherently happen, where abilities can be casted at a cost below the 25% base cost threshold.

Proving you right is not how I would ascertain this situation.

Just stop...

Playing obtuse ain't gonna cut it at this point.

Three of you saying it wasn't capped due to duration have since pulled 180°'s and said it is.

That means 3 of you either didn't read, explained poorly, or are fibbing.

I don't really care which it is...it's enough to ask DE to ensure that it's working as intended.

The question of whether it is working as intended is rhetorical as far as you are concerned.

So you can leave off with the additional commentary, weak insults, and generally fishy behavior...I am not interested.

Have a good day.

[Furybone]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Just stop...

Playing obtuse ain't gonna cut it at this point.

Three of you saying it wasn't capped due to duration have since pulled 180°'s and said it is.

That means 3 of you either didn't read, explained poorly, or are fibbing.

I don't really care which it is...it's enough to ask DE to ensure that it's working as intended.

The question of whether it is working as intended is rhetorical as far as you are concerned.

So you can leave off with the additional commentary, weak insults, and generally fishy behavior...I am not interested.

Have a good day.

No, it means it has additional conditions that you simply don't want to understand. No one is fibbing. Someone even quoted the patch notes when the change was made.

Look at the abilities base costs and then the modified costs in the screenshots i posted. neither the casting cost or the cost per second goes below 25% of base cost. not really sure what your looking for at this point, the writing is on the wall showing that 90% was required to reach it.

 

But more on topic, any more efficiency will just allow people to dump more ranks into a partially ranked blind rage. 25% more from any source will just let us cap blind rage and sustain at 25% base costs.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

Just stop...

Playing obtuse ain't gonna cut it at this point.

Three of you saying it wasn't capped due to duration have since pulled 180°'s and said it is.

That means 3 of you either didn't read, explained poorly, or are fibbing.

I don't really care which it is...it's enough to ask DE to ensure that it's working as intended.

The question of whether it is working as intended is rhetorical as far as you are concerned.

So you can leave off with the additional commentary, weak insults, and generally fishy behavior...I am not interested.

Have a good day.

Just look at it this way instead. Dont think about efficiency being capped at 175%, think of it instead that abilities are capped at a 75% cost decrease i.e 25% of their initial cost. For channeled skills this also includes increases and decreases in power duration, where a decrease in power duration can be made up for by an increase in efficiency beyond 175%.

This is because it is all based around skills not being able to go below 25% of their initial cost.

[DanteYoda]

Yes please 275%

Edited January 17, 2019 by DanteYoda