Riven frames (idea/conspiracy)

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

and people were wrong, like rivens, rivens are wrong

As a note, your comment doesn't make sense. I said 'people said the same thing about Corrupted mods' as in 'people said Corrupted mods are wrong' and yet they're still here and still an intrinsic part of how we build. Meaning, in turn, that those people were, in fact, wrong about Corrupted mods. And my implication is that your comment about Rivens being wrong is no different to that point, saying that you're going to be proved wrong in the future.

And yet you seem to agree with me by saying that people were wrong about Corrupted mods, but then double back and still say Rivens are wrong, defying the logic of that statement. Very strange.

But, and I ask this in all serious nature; why?

The reason people had for not liking them was that people could obtain a good one and hold onto it to get performance that other players could not. Except this doesn't affect any other players, and they can't just hold onto good ones because Rivens are being adjusted every three months to compensate for potential new 'meta' weapons being developed.

Unlike the Warframes, a weapon Riven doesn't actually make you play better, because all the over-powered guns in the world won't save you if you're just going to get shot before you can shoot them.

They introduce a reason to go through higher level missions than the base, and the farming is no different to the existing Relic system, with the exception that while the Relic system gets you a random part that you could not need, while the Kuva missions always give you the specific reward you're looking for as well as the ability to farm mods dropped by enemies that would typically only be found on the Kuva Fortress tile set (which is often confusing and people don't always enjoy going there). Heck, it even provides a place where people regularly do the Operator Dance to get the results, reminding them that it exists and that DE wants us to jump through some hoops with them every now and again.

And even the fact that people drove up the price of Rivens artificially was only based on the fact that nobody had access to the actual data on them, meaning that when some players tried to help out by having market averages (something that every other trading system in the world has) the listings could be manipulated. And DE have literally just fixed that, providing updated, week-on-week data for people to work from and design an interface for.

Rivens are no more wrong than Corrupted mods, and I believe that they're here to stay.

[Sharkgoblin]

1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As a note, your comment doesn't make sense. I said 'people said the same thing about Corrupted mods' as in 'people said Corrupted mods are wrong' and yet they're still here and still an intrinsic part of how we build. Meaning, in turn, that those people were, in fact, wrong about Corrupted mods. And my implication is that your comment about Rivens being wrong is no different to that point, saying that you're going to be proved wrong in the future.

And yet you seem to agree with me by saying that people were wrong about Corrupted mods, but then double back and still say Rivens are wrong, defying the logic of that statement. Very strange.

But, and I ask this in all serious nature; why?

The reason people had for not liking them was that people could obtain a good one and hold onto it to get performance that other players could not. Except this doesn't affect any other players, and they can't just hold onto good ones because Rivens are being adjusted every three months to compensate for potential new 'meta' weapons being developed.

Unlike the Warframes, a weapon Riven doesn't actually make you play better, because all the over-powered guns in the world won't save you if you're just going to get shot before you can shoot them.

They introduce a reason to go through higher level missions than the base, and the farming is no different to the existing Relic system, with the exception that while the Relic system gets you a random part that you could not need, while the Kuva missions always give you the specific reward you're looking for as well as the ability to farm mods dropped by enemies that would typically only be found on the Kuva Fortress tile set (which is often confusing and people don't always enjoy going there). Heck, it even provides a place where people regularly do the Operator Dance to get the results, reminding them that it exists and that DE wants us to jump through some hoops with them every now and again.

And even the fact that people drove up the price of Rivens artificially was only based on the fact that nobody had access to the actual data on them, meaning that when some players tried to help out by having market averages (something that every other trading system in the world has) the listings could be manipulated. And DE have literally just fixed that, providing updated, week-on-week data for people to work from and design an interface for.

Rivens are no more wrong than Corrupted mods, and I believe that they're here to stay.

 rivens are simply wrong, for a ton of reasons, corrupted mods on the other hand let players have different builds that lead towards different playstyles which is great, they're not very expensive or hard to get either and everyone should get them, i too have some rivens that i use and i spent time farming kuva to reroll them, and i did that a lot so i have the experience to say that rivens are really a bad thing, and i believe that even DE is doing the possible to discourage players to deal with them

[Xepthrichros]

I am just wondering, where does "conspiracy" fit into all this?

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Sharkgoblin said:

rivens are simply wrong, for a ton of reasons

And I'm asking for those reasons.

I supplied the reasons why I don't think they're wrong, and I asked you why you think they're wrong. If you have a ton of reasons, please list them so we can discuss.

[Shelusine]

Rivens on warframes would be cool but unnecessary. Warframe strengths are mostly linked to their mechanic, not stats. For instance a 300% power strength Ember in arbitration still does nothing while frames like Khora would become significantly stronger. The balance purpose of rivens would simply not apply to warframes.

That being said, more mods for frames would be welcome. Still waiting for that PvE version of final act. 

[Teridax68]

One of the issues I take with Riven mods is that they tend to reduce weapons to competing stat lumps, without capitalizing at all on their unique mechanics (and in fact often making them less important in comparison). While this is somewhat excusable on weapons though, as weapons have pretty simple and similar functionalities (press button to attack or shoot), warframes are far more complex, and their stats interact very differently with their unique powers. In this respect, applying a stat-centric mod type to them risks giving them a lot more stats, as happens to weapons with Rivens, but without contributing to their inherent gameplay, which is why I'd personally oppose the idea.

[Sharkgoblin]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

And I'm asking for those reasons.

I supplied the reasons why I don't think they're wrong, and I asked you why you think they're wrong. If you have a ton of reasons, please list them so we can discuss.

getting a riven from sortie is rng (but in this case is fine, statues and catalysts are useful stuff)

the riven weapon category is decided by rng

the weapon  is decided by rng

rerolling the riven is pure rng you cant get lucky or you can get #*!%ed for 100 rolls straight and i have the suspect that if you reroll  a riven for a weapon you have a lot of kills on you will have even less chances to get a good roll

kuva gains from missions/sorties/bounties/kuva survival is very low and you need a smeeta and a resource booster if you ever consider rerolling a weapon till you get the desired stats, which most of the times you dont get and you are lucky to get something similar you wanted

riven power adjusted around popularity instead of the actual power of the weapon is absolutely horrible practice 

very good rivens cant make S#&$ weapons usable

mediocre weapons that can go endgame with a riven risk to get #*!%ed by the "popularity means power level" bs, except kohm, because kohm users are better than other players so they apparently deserve better than other people

 

[AtsiaZ]

3 minutes ago, Sharkgoblin said:

riven power adjusted around popularity instead of the actual power of the weapon is absolutely horrible practice 

Well good news then, DE ARE adjusting rivens on intended performance and power level of the weapon now.

 

5 minutes ago, Sharkgoblin said:

getting a riven from sortie is rng (but in this case is fine, statues and catalysts are useful stuff)

the riven weapon category is decided by rng 

the weapon  is decided by rng

rerolling the riven is pure rng you cant get lucky or you can get #*!%ed for 100 rolls straight and i have the suspect that if you reroll  a riven for a weapon you have a lot of kills on you will have even less chances to get a good roll 

If just being RNG is wrong, then every single drop in this game is wrong too.

 

10 minutes ago, Sharkgoblin said:

very good rivens cant make S#&$ weapons usable 

That doesn't make rivens wrong either, only shows the weapons that need actual stat changes.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Sharkgoblin said:

getting a riven from sortie is rng (but in this case is fine, statues and catalysts are useful stuff)

the riven weapon category is decided by rng

the weapon  is decided by rng

rerolling the riven is pure rng you cant get lucky or you can get #*!%ed for 100 rolls straight

All completely normal so far, there's nothing about a game built around so called 'known' RNG, where you always know what you're going for, but getting the specific is difficult (ie; you can be farming a specific mod, you know exactly which enemy to get it from, but enemy drops multiple mods, and getting the one you want is of an equal chance as all the other rare ones, and then that enemy only spawns with 33% chance on a specific mission. See example: Plains Aerial Commander and the three 0.5% drops from their rare pool that are unattainable anywhere else in the game, meaning the actual chance of getting a specific mod is actually closer to 0.0165% for any given run of the only Bounty that spawns that enemy.)

1 hour ago, Sharkgoblin said:

i have the suspect that if you reroll  a riven for a weapon you have a lot of kills on you will have even less chances to get a good roll

Disproven immediately by multiple rivens in existence right now, such as my own Tipedo riven, hit god-roll on roll 5, I have over 340 hours of in-mission time clocked to using the original Tipedo.

1 hour ago, Sharkgoblin said:

kuva gains from missions/sorties/bounties/kuva survival is very low and you need a smeeta and a resource booster

False. You don't need any of these. It may take you more time, but there are already existing examples of worse grinds in the game.

1 hour ago, Sharkgoblin said:

riven power adjusted around popularity instead of the actual power of the weapon is absolutely horrible practice

Opinion only. In my opinion, this would only be a problem if the stats were never further adjusted and only ever taken as a cross section once. As they are being updated every three months now, this practice means that they can shift the power consistently to encourage more usage of different weapons over the course of the game.

Yes, many weapons could use a stat buff, but the actual point of Rivens being introduced was to get people out of the base power-creep Meta of every new weapon is better than the previous. With a Riven weapons that are specifically designed to be low tier, like the Veldt and the Plinx can become good. Not S-tier, but good weapons that perform adequately for the duration a player wants to use them.

All weapons are not created equal, that's the point of them having a Mastery requirement and ranking, a Riven is not supposed to make any of the deliberately bad weapons compete with the deliberately good ones, that's just introducing more and more power-creep into the game and would be the worst way to run the Riven system because it would mean that there would be no need to rank up and get the better weapons that are available if you enjoy the Mk-1 Kunai and have a Kunai Riven that suddenly makes it deal as much damage as a Tigris Prime.

2 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

very good rivens cant make S#&$ weapons usable

So no, this is precisely the point; some weapons are not meant to be good, they are supposed to be stepping stones before you acquire the actually good ones. Like every other RPG in the world does.

I mean, what this all really boils down to is that you just want less RNG and less cost on Rivens because you honestly don't see them the way the game sees them:

Even if the stats you want out of a Riven don't roll around, stat boosts do appear. Ones that normal modding does not give you. Sometimes this is to the detriment of the specific weapon, but only by virtue of them having negative stats to balance the positive ones. And, importantly, the stats added are all outside of the mods that are available for that weapon because they can be applied in addition to those existing mods.

It's like Augment mods, sometimes the Ability is not worth the cost of a mod slot in order to get the added effects, but since those effects are genuinely extra to the ability, that Augment always would be a buff to the frame.

The Rivens are always buffs. Just not the buffs you want. And because they are always buffs, and always have the chance to roll to better buffs, they are made expensive. 

All of these reasons you've given here do not make Rivens a bad idea. They simply don't. They're either pure opinion, some of them are actually false, or they're based on misunderstanding the purpose of why Rivens exist.

In short, Rivens are not bad for the game. Not according to these reasons you've listed. Bad for you, maybe, but nobody else is you.

[BlindStalker]

No please. The idea of rivens for frames is awful to me and would make the already riven crazy obsessed community, even more obsessive. Don't encourage them.

Edited April 4, 2019 by BlindStalker

[Cibyllae]

There are too many weapons to have balance passed at, which is why rivens work well for weapons. It allows players to balance their own weapon so to speak. But allowing the players to balance warframes through rivens is a bad idea. And honestly, more stats is not a good way to go about balancing the core mechanic of a game, for many warframes they are simple being outclassed because their abilities don't do enough with one button press.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Cibyllae

[Sharkgoblin]

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

All completely normal so far, there's nothing about a game built around so called 'known' RNG, where you always know what you're going for, but getting the specific is difficult (ie; you can be farming a specific mod, you know exactly which enemy to get it from, but enemy drops multiple mods, and getting the one you want is of an equal chance as all the other rare ones, and then that enemy only spawns with 33% chance on a specific mission. See example: Plains Aerial Commander and the three 0.5% drops from their rare pool that are unattainable anywhere else in the game, meaning the actual chance of getting a specific mod is actually closer to 0.0165% for any given run of the only Bounty that spawns that enemy.)

yeah but at least you know that that enemy can drop a specific mod, with rivens you know #*!%all due to the vast arsenal of weapons

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Disproven immediately by multiple rivens in existence right now, such as my own Tipedo riven, hit god-roll on roll 5, I have over 340 hours of in-mission time clocked to using the original Tipedo.

disproven my ass i can show you my daikyu and miter and twin vipers riven, so you can see the S#&$ luck i got with those that are my most used weapons

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

False. You don't need any of these. It may take you more time, but there are already existing examples of worse grinds in the game.

false what, farming kuva sucks, everyone says that except you, like for a single roll with no boosters or smeeta you need to do like 4 kuva siphons and 1 kuva flood, which are around 20 mins depending on the missions, the planet (on ceres those siphons are always well hidden for some reason)  after you did those missions you have to wait 1 hour or do kuva survival, then for kuva survival for one single roll you since you get 200 for each modified life support and each life support spawns every 90 seconds you have to defend 18, which gonna take around 25 minutes, 25 minutes for 1 roll, its absolutely horrible and you must be high on kuva to say the opposite

 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Opinion only

not opinion, is a fact, garbage ass system how can you defend that S#&$, its just bad and lazy 

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

So no, this is precisely the point; some weapons are not meant to be good, they are supposed to be stepping stones before you acquire the actually good ones. Like every other RPG in the world does.

I mean, what this all really boils down to is that you just want less RNG and less cost on Rivens because you honestly don't see them the way the game sees them:

Even if the stats you want out of a Riven don't roll around, stat boosts do appear. Ones that normal modding does not give you. Sometimes this is to the detriment of the specific weapon, but only by virtue of them having negative stats to balance the positive ones. And, importantly, the stats added are all outside of the mods that are available for that weapon because they can be applied in addition to those existing mods.

It's like Augment mods, sometimes the Ability is not worth the cost of a mod slot in order to get the added effects, but since those effects are genuinely extra to the ability, that Augment always would be a buff to the frame.

The Rivens are always buffs. Just not the buffs you want. And because they are always buffs, and always have the chance to roll to better buffs, they are made expensive. 

All of these reasons you've given here do not make Rivens a bad idea. They simply don't. They're either pure opinion, some of them are actually false, or they're based on misunderstanding the purpose of why Rivens exist.

In short, Rivens are not bad for the game. Not according to these reasons you've listed. Bad for you, maybe, but nobody else is you.

who the #*!% cares about other games this is warframe and DE said that rivens are meant to make players give a shot to old weapons not to get transmute fodders

and they #*!%ed up big time, except for the money im sure they made a lot of them which is good dont get me wrong

i just understand that you like this S#&$ system so theres no point of arguing

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

On 2019-04-01 at 1:25 AM, -Dajn said:

Now imagine something like 5 disposition frame with a riven. What do you guys think about it? 

Stats could be like (both positives and negatives) 

Range, strength, efficiency, duration, health, armor, shield, sprint speed, energy pool. Might be more options. 

Now imagine having something like banshee disp 2 (due to popularity in the future if this would be implemented) with 100 ish range, 80 strength, 60 efficiency, and a negative sprint speed or something likely. 

What are your ideas when it comes to frames with what kind of riven and why would you run them? 

ummm did you mean: corrupted mods?

blind rage

overextended

narrow minded

we already have riven warframe mods...it's just a different lable, and besides i'm not afraid of DE screwing this up if they ever did that, what i'm afraid of is the overreaction of trade chat, i don't want to see someone selling [Ember critatax] for 5000 plat  

[Darkuhn]

For the love of god please don’t implement Warframe Rivens! 

All that would lead to would be Rivens  with Range/Power and Efficiency and no negatives for almost all frames. They could as well implement pure positive dual stat Mods for Frames it would have the same effect of Powercreep

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

disproven my ass i can show you my daikyu and miter and twin vipers riven, so you can see the S#&$ luck

Yes disproven, because it shows that you just have

12 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

S#&$ luck

Luck, not bias inbuilt into the game against your favourites.

12 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

false what, farming kuva sucks

5 missions? You're complaining about running only 5 missions for guaranteed resources? When I've shown you that even when you know the source of another resource in game, you can play the game and the source doesn't even appear?

It's not that I particularly like Kuva farming, it's just that running 5 missions is nothing compared to the potential power Rivens can give. So you've not gotten that power yet? So what? You still will eventually get that power you're looking for with grind.

13 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

yeah but at least you know that that enemy can drop a specific mod, with rivens you know #*!%all due to the vast arsenal of weapons

With any Riven you know you're getting a Shotgun, Rifle, Secondary, Melee, Zaw or Kitgun Riven. Yes there's a large pool in each of those, but you do know that you're going to get one from that pool. Just because you're farming a certain one? That's no different to the way the rest of the game works. You can be farming a Prime part for a frame, and it could be the common drop on that Relic, but you have an equal chance of getting any other part in the common slots. You could be going through Tyl Regor to get Equinox, and you stand a chance of not getting every single part equally for sixty or seventy runs if you have bad luck, even though you get an Equinox part every single run, because there's 8 parts that all drop from the same drop pool on that 'guaranteed' part of the reward table.

And again, your complaint isn't that the system is bad, it's that you haven't gotten what you want out of it yet. You've gotten all those Rivens, all of them are buffs to the weapon they relate to, but because you're being picky about it, apparently it's a bad system.

13 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

who the #*!% cares about other games this is warframe

And Warframe is a co-op, looter shooter, RPG. They have growth of power from the Mastery Rank of each weapon because it's a progression system. Like an RPG. Which it is.

Just because Warframe is not specifically another game, doesn't mean it's another category, you moistened biscuit.

13 hours ago, Sharkgoblin said:

rivens are meant to make players give a shot to old weapons not to get transmute fodders

So just how are you giving those other weapons a shot, if you're saying that none of the Rivens you've gotten are for the weapons you want? If all of them are just Transmute fodder, you're not giving those weapons a shot. You're not taking any time, investing any grind, you're just saying 'oh, a Veldt, that's a crap weapon, scrap the Riven'.

All of these complaints of yours boil down to 'Well I'm not getting what I want, so it must be a bad system.' Grow up.