Some nightwave challenges ruin the game and need to go

[Trenggiling]

I agree with the OP here.
Some of these acts will negatively effect a decent number of players.
Most notably the newer and casual players.

[Trenggiling]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

This, nightwave system should go and replaced with something else.

I wouldn't say that.

Just some tweaks to what kind of acts show up would suffice.

 

Heck they could even introduce a kind of... act reroll system, to swap out ones that you  cant/dont want to  deal with.

[Rogunz]

The ESO challenge just needs to be changed to 8 waves. It doesn't require you to do them consecutively so if someone can't do 8 waves for whatever reason they can still complete it but setting the goal at 8 would make most people try to stay for all 8 waves. It's one of the easiest and shortest "elite" challenges and requiring you to spend another 13 minutes on it really wouldn't change that.

[Xaxma]

Thank you for this thread. 

This definitely needs to be addressed. 

Ignore the dumb opinions of these white knights, you are absolutely, undoubtedly in the right here. They are giving mindless dissent for the sake of dissent and have zero clue. Don't bother replying to them and save yourself the headache. 

As a veteran myself, I didn't really consider these issues since I'm rolling around in so many resources, it doesn't take a second thought to just mindlessly expend them on these challenges, but you are absolutely correct in regards to newer players on a tighter budget. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Xaxma

[Hobie-wan]

If the 'challenges' aren't challenges at all, then vets will complain that they're too easy. If too many require things that vets can breeze through but new players struggle with, the new people will complain. This is why there is a mix and not all need to be completed to get to 30 in the 10 weeks. Plenty of the 'harder' ones can have newer people carried to some degree. I don't understand why so many people are incapable of understanding all of this.

[(XBOX)Sir Dwar]

My 2 cents here;

 

Forma Challenge: Hmmm.... For the newest of the new, having forma in the oven 24/7 the way someone a few weeks in does isn't practical. The challenge isn't hard, but this seems more like an issue with players not knowing how to get forma. Once you do, getting 3 forma in a week is easy, if a slightly tedious wait. Although if I didn't have so much gear lying around I might run into the problem of not wanting to waste a forma on something I'm going to trash.

Ayatan: I haven't had a problem with amber stars in a long time. Still, this is the challenge with the most issues. DE has taken steps to correct it, though. We'll see if finding 3 amber stars and 2 statues in a week is too much for people.

ESO: I'm not crazy about this one either. Pretty much anyone can be carried through 3 waves of ESO just by parkouring a lot, but it's not a great experience if you're in a PUG with such a person.

Gilding: Building and ranking up a modular item isn't too difficult, nor is getting the rep and resources required to actually gild the item. Still, it does feel... off, somehow. I don't like idea of gilding something I'm just going to throw away. It's a small quibble, but I think that sort of feeling is probably not something DE wants to cause on a regular basis.

[Xaxma]

22 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

If the 'challenges' aren't challenges at all, then vets will complain that they're too easy. If too many require things that vets can breeze through but new players struggle with, the new people will complain. This is why there is a mix and not all need to be completed to get to 30 in the 10 weeks. Plenty of the 'harder' ones can have newer people carried to some degree. I don't understand why so many people are incapable of understanding all of this.

It's not a matter of it being challenging; it instills a feeling of uncertainty in progressing with doing things like ayatan sculpture filling and forma'ing knowing full well you might very likely waste those resources when you could be doing it for the suspected challenges that require them. It's not challenging, it's forcing people to time their resource dumps, something newer players might not be capable of accessing as readily as older players. When you go down the line, you'll realize just how restrictive it can be for them.

On top of that, I can attest as a veteran myself that it's plenty annoying to go on a forma spree with my newly acquired weapons only to see the forma challenge come up three days later, which drags me away from doing what I wanted to do prior to that in order to go build the forma, install it on whatever, spam Hydron/ESO, etc ...

I get that it's trying to stir activity in this way and it gives a tiny motivation to stop being lazy with forma'ing things, but it's my damn forma, and I want to be able to use it whenever I want, same with sculptures.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Xaxma

[Hobie-wan]

I had just filled all my backlog of sculptures right before the first time that came up in nightwave. I was a bit annoyed, but I just ran the weekly Maroo one, paid attention on missions, and maybe ran ESO or a sorte for one of them. If I'd missed that one thing for the week, no biggie. When the forma one came up, I didn't feel the absolute need to forma anything, but I went ahead and did some anyway just because I had extra and some lesser used equipment could use a few more points. I could have skipped it as well.

Aside from that first half week where I didn't get all of the challenges done, I've done all since then and I was already past Nightwave 30 before this week's refresh. I have captures all the fugitives that popped up in my missions except for maybe 3 that got away, but I haven't spent time farming for them. But with all that, there's 3+ weeks of plenty of buffer for getting up through the armor and skipping stuff you don't want to do.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Oh look, another well-reasoned thread addressing a simple concept with people dismissing the points using hand-wave arguments in semantics.

A system designed to encourage player participation should not simultaneously discourage players from participating outside the system. Period.

If I want to Forma an item, I want to Forma it without worrying about needing it to complete some trivial checklist chore. If I want to socket an Ayatan and cash it in, I want to do that without worrying that I might need it to complete some trivial checklist chore. If I... You get the pattern.

This is obviously going to be less of an issue for players who play more often and for longer, but "it doesn't affect me" is NOT equivalent to "it's not a problem."

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

26 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Oh look, another well-reasoned thread addressing a simple concept with people dismissing the points using hand-wave arguments in semantics.

A system designed to encourage player participation should not simultaneously discourage players from participating outside the system. Period.

If I want to Forma an item, I want to Forma it without worrying about needing it to complete some trivial checklist chore. If I want to socket an Ayatan and cash it in, I want to do that without worrying that I might need it to complete some trivial checklist chore. If I... You get the pattern.

This is obviously going to be less of an issue for players who play more often and for longer, but "it doesn't affect me" is NOT equivalent to "it's not a problem."

The system was designed so players DONT need to participate in EVERY event.  Don't like a challenge? Don't do it. there is a simple concept.

I agree the forma one is terrible for new players - AND I would fully support yanking it from the game - but I don't agree it "ruins the game".  The others on your list are simple to do - even the arbitration one for new players if they simply wait for a mission type that suits their playstyle and does a touch of recruiting. 

Are there acts that I despise? certainly -the forma one,  10 nightmare, x # of bounties, mine y # of gems - I need nothing from any of those game modes.  But i'm not going to say they ruin the game.

"it does affect me" is also NOT equivalent to "Its a problem" and certainly not equivalent to "its ruining the game".

 

[sam686]

Forma 3 times is probably a platinum wasting purchase or rush Formas, at least for new players that don't have any Formas. Relics have Forma blueprints that requires building it in Foundry with a slow 24 hours if not rushed with wasting platinum.

Gild item weekly... waste of standing (daily limited) and some materials. New players at mastery rank 0 have a tiny limit of only 1000 standings per day.

[DiabolusUrsus]

52 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

The system was designed so players DONT need to participate in EVERY event.  Don't like a challenge? Don't do it. there is a simple concept.

The system is designed to get players to play Warframe. It is specifically set up to require substantial and regular commitment to long-term goals. You are ignoring the content of the complaint, which is not "I don't want to do it."

Players are perfectly willing to apply Forma and fill statues. However, there is no good reason why they shouldn't be free to do it on their own terms without worrying about missing out on a reward because they did it a day early.

Quote

I agree the forma one is terrible for new players - AND I would fully support yanking it from the game - but I don't agree it "ruins the game". 

Oh look, another argument in semantics. If you want to nitpick rhetoric, go ahead. Just don't mistake that for an actual substantive argument.

Quote

The others on your list are simple to do - even the arbitration one for new players if they simply wait for a mission type that suits their playstyle and does a touch of recruiting.

Again, you continue to ignore or misconstrue the core of the complaint. The complaint is NOT about the "difficulty" of the challenges.

The complaint is that these challenges stop players with fewer resources or less available playtime from doing what they want on their own terms.

Quote

Are there acts that I despise? certainly -the forma one,  10 nightmare, x # of bounties, mine y # of gems - I need nothing from any of those game modes.  But i'm not going to say they ruin the game.

"it does affect me" is also NOT equivalent to "Its a problem" and certainly not equivalent to "its ruining the game".

Again, more semantics. You're quibbling over a subjective threshold for what is/is not a problem when you have no decision making power in the matter, and mostly just take issue with OP's word choice.

Requiring players to follow an arbitrary and unpredictable schedule for resource-limited fundamental activities like applying Forma in order to get credit for them is bad design. Period.

Players should be able to play the game on their own terms without needing to worry about missing out on a reward because they did an activity too EARLY.

Edit:

To address your examples more directly; notice how none of them are resource-limited. Running a bounty doesn't prevent you from running another bounty if a new challenge appears requiring you to run bounties. Same goes for mining, nightmare missions, etc., whereas players with fewer resources/less time to play can absolutely screw themselves out of being able to finish a Forma/Ayatan/etc. challenge they otherwise COULD have.

Edited April 15, 2019 by DiabolusUrsus

[Hobie-wan]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Oh look, another well-reasoned thread addressing a simple concept with people dismissing the points using hand-wave arguments in semantics.

A system designed to encourage player participation should not simultaneously discourage players from participating outside the system. Period.

If I want to Forma an item, I want to Forma it without worrying about needing it to complete some trivial checklist chore. If I want to socket an Ayatan and cash it in, I want to do that without worrying that I might need it to complete some trivial checklist chore. If I... You get the pattern.

This is obviously going to be less of an issue for players who play more often and for longer, but "it doesn't affect me" is NOT equivalent to "it's not a problem."

Oh look, another person dismissing the fact that there are different types of players in different circumstances and that you don't need to do all of the challenges to get to 30.

If someone can only play for an hour a day because they have other real life things that need to get done, the game (with alerts) shouldn't force them to constantly check if something is being offered and drop their important chores or sleep just because the game says now is the time for nitain or a blueprint. They shouldn't be worrying that something popped up in the game when they're at work when they can't be there.

I can play this game too.

No matter what, there will be people that don't care for some of the challenges. It is impossible to please everyone. Those people you reference that don't have to play as much or for as long might have completely missed out on things because they weren't on when an alert came up.

[Vox_Preliator]

Then don't do them.  You don't need to, you aren't expected to.

On 2019-04-14 at 8:19 AM, Rubat said:

Yes, a good point, it might indeed be a time to drop warframe solely because of Nightwave.

I just plain don't get how Nightwave could possibly get someone to quit.  Unless someone has absolutely zero self-control and unhealthily forces themselves to do every challenge regardless of necessity or enjoyment, then they're the ones treating Warframe like chores or a job, not DE.  I'm just playing almost entirely as normal, and I'm poised to hit rank 30 this week, though I'll probably not bother hitting it 'til next week because that's the entire reason why we're given way more Standing than necessary to do exactly that.

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

Big 'ol strawman

Neither I nor OP are arguing that Alerts were better than Nightwave, or that they had no flaws.

I agree that it's impossible to please everyone, but the core of the argument is that having resource-limited challenges discourages players from engaging in specific basic activities UNTIL those challenges are available to be credited for them.

The argument is NOT that these challenges are too difficult.

The argument is NOT that players are unwilling to do the challenges.

The argument has NOTHING to do with the old Alerts system.

Address the actual argument, or you're just wasting everybody's time.

Player experience and available playtime is relevant, because it discredits the argument that "it's not hard to get more Forma/Ayatans."

True, acquiring more resources is fairly simple for veterans and players who have lots of time to play. However, if you're a player who can only play in short sessions or a few times a week, it would be undeniably frustrating to burn your limited resources only find out you wasted your only opportunity to complete an otherwise-trivial challenge.

[(XBOX)dude1286]

And then there are people like me, who are in the minority admittedly, who are punished for potatoing and formaing all the things when they come out. Place 3 forma on what? The things I've already formaed the bajesus out of. I'm not a streamer or someone who participates in that ridiculous 100 forma challenge. Don't create 'challenges' that are badically gear checking. It makes players not want to participate in those things anymore until the NW challenge returns.

[Test-995]

3 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Then don't do them.  You don't need to, you aren't expected to.

I just plain don't get how Nightwave could possibly get someone to quit.  Unless someone has absolutely zero self-control and unhealthily forces themselves to do every challenge regardless of necessity or enjoyment, then they're the ones treating Warframe like chores or a job, not DE.  I'm just playing almost entirely as normal, and I'm poised to hit rank 30 this week, though I'll probably not bother hitting it 'til next week because that's the entire reason why we're given way more Standing than necessary to do exactly that.

It's only about how many people feels that way, if they are majority, DE have to fix it (unless they are determined in their design, of course)

You can blame someone who hate nightwave all you want, it doesn't reduce their quantity.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

55 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

Then don't do them.  You don't need to, you aren't expected to.

I just plain don't get how Nightwave could possibly get someone to quit.  Unless someone has absolutely zero self-control and unhealthily forces themselves to do every challenge regardless of necessity or enjoyment, then they're the ones treating Warframe like chores or a job, not DE.  I'm just playing almost entirely as normal, and I'm poised to hit rank 30 this week, though I'll probably not bother hitting it 'til next week because that's the entire reason why we're given way more Standing than necessary to do exactly that.

Congratulations, you are a rational person, who doesn't go out of the way to do things in the worst possible way, and then blame others for the results. 

For many of us there wasn't any real reason to rush or complete all of the challenges. There was no unreasonable fear of missing out. There was no unreasonable increase in the level of grind. Much of what we were asked to do, was stuff we're likely to have done anyway. There is no real need to withhold from doing any tasks that we might be asked to do for a challenge, and even the "gild something modular" was not a major issue if you didn't have a weapon already built and waiting. 

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

1 hour ago, Test-995 said:

It's only about how many people feels that way, if they are majority, DE have to fix it (unless they are determined in their design, of course)

You can blame someone who hate nightwave all you want, it doesn't reduce their quantity.

Nor does spreading the hate in as many places as possible increase your number. After all you're still on record as finding ESO tedious and then a few minutes later you posted that you find everything but ESO tedious. If you hate the majority of the game, then any event that requires you to play other parts of the game than the very limited few that interest you, obviously you won't enjoy it. 

But again that's because you seem to actively hate playing this game. 

[Test-995]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Nor does spreading the hate in as many places as possible increase your number. After all you're still on record as finding ESO tedious and then a few minutes later you posted that you find everything but ESO tedious. If you hate the majority of the game, then any event that requires you to play other parts of the game than the very limited few that interest you, obviously you won't enjoy it. 

But again that's because you seem to actively hate playing this game. 

Haha you are completely right and i don't have any argument XD

Saying that "i don't want it/i want it because~" is fine imo, but i don't like someone who says "no u bad that's ur personal opinion it's worthless".

Oh yes, it's only mere personal opinion and feel free to ignore.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Test-995

[Ulvra]

I mostly agree and have also said as much in the general feedback thread, but have a bit of additional commentary to a couple...

Apply 3 forma
This act is simply awful. I have multiple weapons that I'd like to polarise, but as a result of knowing that this is now a thing, generally instead of doing the leg work I wait and wait because one such act might come along and eat my forma tomorrow. I get what they're trying to do with the act, but "apply 1 forma" would have had the same effect and would not feel as much as a slap in the face as usually there's at least one place where you could probably fit a single forma, due to new content or places you hadn't gone yet. I'd like to either see this act removed or bumped down to a single forma.

Gild 1 item
Same as before, awful. I feel like I am being punished because I got excited about the content DE put out so now I have to waste resources and slots to make weapons I don't need. "Luckily" I've not yet crafted all the amps I want to eventually have, so the result now is that I sit on the parts rather than craft them, because one of these acts may come tomorrow and then I need them in my back pocket.

The problem with both of these is that they're promoting inactivity. Promoting not playing the content that DE is putting out and that is counter productive, to the game and to those you play with. An additional note that I made before, why is it that the forma challenge is only worth 3k when it requires opening a bunch of relics, getting the right drop, getting the resources, crafting them over 72 hours and first then being able to apply them to whatever when opening a measely 10 relics is worth 5k? To me that seems like someone realised it wasn't that good of a challenge and wanted not to cause too much of an uproar.

Now the ayatan challenge, this one need not be removed, however I'd like to see it further reduced to 2 ayatans, which would be one from the weekly and one from other souces. The purpose is the same as the "1 forma", namely that it still promotes the same, but without being as punishing. 5 ayatans was very exclusionary for new players, 3 is better but still a needless waste of time. The result of this act however is the same, instead of preparing my ayatans, I now have 30 sculptures in my pocket that isn't socketed because "what if".

Finally the onslaught, this one I'm fine with honestly. When I go to onslaught I either bring something that allows me to solo if need be or I go with a friend and work together. I rarely ever have anyone in elite who stuck around past round 3 anyway even before the act, only a rare single person. Most people went in there to level a weapon and then buggered off afterwards, usually sitting in a corner trying to nuke from cover. If you can't solo I can see it being annoying, but it's only for a week if that's the case and it happens constantly anyway.