Fixing Harrow: the selfish support

[Tiltskillet]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

It kinda does. Or it can, anyway. Allies are able to charge your ult, so it isn't hard for an Equinox player to just sit back while others do the work, then pop 4, provided your allies stay within your ult's range. Back when Onslaught first came out, it was really popular to take a pair of Equinox and have them charge each other's Maims for endless effortless nukes (they've probably patched this now).

Oh, I'm not asking whether Equinox can do it.   Rather,  why does it suit Equinox but not Harrow? 

Mend/Maim Equinox is actually  more extreme than what's being proposed here, since her personal kills are treated exactly the same as squad.

[(PSN)psycofang]

17 hours ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

You can burn your shields to make your 2 keep your health up, but then you have to do all the killing, and at sortie levels you're going to get one-shotted without your shields.

Thats why you keep spamming his 1 that ,with high power strength/range/duration, results in essy 2k overshields as well as easy to kill targets.

 

Theres no direct order to his skill usage

Charge thurble before/during confrontation thurble doesnt ever meed to go above 5 or 10 (at most) so youre never charging that long to begin with.

 

His 2 us best used under his 4 and brought back up during dps phase of his 4

Nothing at Sortie level sans puncture enhanced enemies should be 1 shotting you even without your shields.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I've said it before and i'll say it again.  If Harrow's allies are consistently killing enough enemies that Harrow is actually starved for kills they don't NEED his energy.  You can mod your harrow to get 1-3 kills and basically refill anyone's energy.  it's highly unlikely that Harrow will never get a few kills here and there unless you're playing with an AoE nuke.  In which Harrow isn't needed.

Literally the only change I think Harrow should give to allies is his RoF bonus he gets for sacrificing shields.  He already aides his team plenty with his ultimate.  If you wana be a battery for your team play trinity.

[MrTitan123]

Okay, I’m gonna say this right now. As a side Harrow main, no. He does not need to be fixed at all. 

YOU however need to be more aware of your team. 

Yes, it’s annoying for me when people steal my kills. It’s frustrating, I understand that. I main Nidus too, so I get double that frustration. But you know what? It’s fine because team communication exists. If you need health or energy from Harrow, just stay near him and watch his back!

Not only will you get the health and energy you need, but giving your support some cover will ensure THEY stay alive too! Like someone said earlier, Harrow is a vanguard support. He’s out there, doing stuff, kicking ass, taking names. If you’re afraid you won’t get energy, don’t be. The thurible buff shows up on his hud and yours as well. Chances are that if he has it even active in the first place, he knows you all need energy. Just stick near him, and stop shooting for a bit. Hell, maybe even buff your Harrow to say ‘thanks for keeping my S#&$ together’. 

I really don’t think you know how much we do to keep your asses alive, so a thank you is always appreciated.

[EinheriarJudith]

27 minutes ago, MrTitan123 said:

Yes, it’s annoying for me when people steal my kills. It’s frustrating, I understand that. I main Nidus too, so I get double that frustration.

i agree with most of the things you've said except this. the same thing applies to nidus. if enemies are dying before you can gain stacks, they arent a threat to you. its better for nidus if enemies dont die because stacks depend on hits not kills.

Edited April 29, 2019 by EinheriarJudith

[EinheriarJudith]

ive been noticing that frame powers seem to be tuned more towards when enemies start actually being able to fight back. in low-mid lvls even heavy units are fodder. but around 60-100 seems to be where some of these powers actually start being worth using.

[(XBOX)GameNerd300]

I kinda agree with OP, but I won't say Harrow is exactly selfish. The issue is that he ends up fighting with the other squadmates in order to really capitalize off of his abilities. Condemn is pretty straight forward cause it chains enemies down for him or other players to pick off, awarding Harrow with overshields with each enemy chained down. That's cool, cause Harrow doesn't have to fight with anyone else fro the kill.His 2, however, is contingent upon Harrow killing an enemy to give health to other players. His 3 isn't a problem until the buff is made and Harrow has to go around and get kills in order to give out energy per kill. As mentioned before, when there's large AOE frames like Saryn and equinox, it's really hard for Harrow to build any buffs since enemies are being mass deleted with either one of those frames running around with Harrow.

I wonder if making the team able to proc his buffs while they're active would cause Harrow to be considered OP? I mean, I can see how it would benefit the team and Harrow specifically.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

5 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

If Harrow's allies are consistently killing enough enemies that Harrow is actually starved for kills they don't NEED his energy

They do, as they run out and at the point where Trinity would EV them some more Harrow's got nothing. 

You can totally make him work with tight team control and communication, but it's clunky compared to other support frames.

30 minutes ago, MrTitan123 said:

YOU however need to be more aware of your team

I'd say they need to be more aware of me 😉

31 minutes ago, MrTitan123 said:

Just stick near him, and stop shooting for a bit.

I think this is the key bit players are missing. Harrow is not an easy to get frame for new players, he's not a frame you see commonly played, and most public groups seem to play like a kills competition.

35 minutes ago, MrTitan123 said:

Yes, it’s annoying for me when people steal my kills. It’s frustrating, I understand that. I main Nidus too, so I get double that frustration

Yeah, same issue there, he too often groups enemies together so others can kill them.

11 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

its better fo rnidus if enemies dont die because stacks depend on hits not kills

I won't feel so bad about my stray Catchmoon/Plasmor blasts then 🙂

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)GameNerd300 said:

I wonder if making the team able to proc his buffs while they're active would cause Harrow to be considered OP? I mean, I can see how it would benefit the team and Harrow specifically.

 

19 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

The developer who designed Harrow stated (a long time ago) that this wasn't going to happen because it would allow the frame to be really passive. It ain't gonna happen.

If you want a passive support frame, we already have several options. Harrow is a more involved one and I for one want it to stay that way. You don't get to be the badass gunslinging warrior priest who can do their job by popping up their auras, sitting back and hiding behind other players. That just doesn't jive.

it would make him to passive which is opposite of his playstyle.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, (XB1)KayAitch said:

I won't feel so bad about my stray Catchmoon/Plasmor blasts then 🙂

when i play nidus i use melee and larva and on occasion virulence until things start piling up then i slam on virulence spam hehe.

[(XBOX)GameNerd300]

2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

 

it would make him to passive which is opposite of his playstyle.

Ok, that makes sense. I just wish he didn't have to fight other players just to provide buffs.

[Gurpgork]

12 minutes ago, (XB1)GameNerd300 said:

Ok, that makes sense. I just wish he didn't have to fight other players just to provide buffs.

This is a result of Warframe having a really unhealthy coop atmosphere. Enemies are so trivial to kill and it's possible for one player to kill so many of them at once that most missions become a competition between other players of "how much can I realistically contribute if there's a Saryn?" 

Having four players in your squad should mean that everyone needs to contribute for the squad to succeed. Right now, getting swarmed with enemies just means that whoever picked the nuker just gets more affinity. 

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

 Right now, getting swarmed with enemies just means that whoever picked the nuker just gets more affinity. 

this is only partially correct. if the person who is killing the most enemies is trying to lvl equipment they will get almost nothing but will get affinity for what they are using to kill. the people who cant do anything will get all the affinity.

[----Legacy----]

On 2019-04-28 at 9:35 AM, (XB1)KayAitch said:

if a Saryn or Mesa is close to you then you get nothing - they steal your kills.

And then other frames that require active interaction with enemies can have a hard time too with them in the squad. Imo, that's more of an issue with Saryn and Mesa being braindead easy to use for how rewarding they are than with frames that require active gameplay needing tweaks.

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

this is only partially correct. if the person who is killing the most enemies is trying to lvl equipment they will get almost nothing but will get affinity for what they are using to kill. the people who cant do anything will get all the affinity.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that if you're playing a nuker, then "coop" just means "solo, but with more loot." 

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

True, but that doesn't change the fact that if you're playing a nuker, then "coop" just means "solo, but with more loot." 

you wont get any complaints about that from me since i agree.

[(XBOX)Devo 20 XD 6]

On 2019-04-28 at 11:56 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

i use this. adaptation is always worth using on shield frames because DR applies to shields.



I will have to try adaptation on Harrow when I get it. I do use Redirection and Vitality on one of my Harrow builds as I find having a larger health pool will make me survive better than a massive shield pool. I do use Steel Fiber though too. If you don't use Steel Fiber than listen to @EinheriarJudith advice it is good, some people don't like using Steel Fiber on Warframes with less than 300 base armour. Having three survivability mods I would probably drop Intensify, Auger Reach, or Streamline. Depends on your play style, Harrow IMO doesn't need much strength if he has lots of Shields to cast his 2, and he can easily take massive enough damage to max out his 4 without a strength mod. That said using a strength mod makes things a little easier. Using one range mod is fine too, as well as having 100% efficiency. You will have to sacrifice something if you wanted to have more survivability (or more of anything else for that matter). 

A fun build for Harrow is using Fast Hands Aura, using Natural Talent with either Vigor (primed or normal) or base shields (no Redirection mod). Harrow can still get high overshields if his 1 hits a big group of baddies or by spamming his 1, and with natural talent he can spam his 1 really quick. You can use any Aura mod you want, fast hands is good if that is what you want and it is fun on Harrow with natural talent. It's like using Ken instead of Ryu on Street Fighter.

Edited April 29, 2019 by (XB1)Devo 20 XD 6
To make more sense

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

13 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

And then other frames that require active interaction with enemies can have a hard time too with them in the squad. Imo, that's more of an issue with Saryn and Mesa being braindead easy to use for how rewarding they are than with frames that require active gameplay needing tweaks.

That's a good point, but even if you nerf them they're still DPS - that's what they do on a team. You expect them to have the majority of the kills. Fix that, fix support in general so that Nyx and maybe even Vauban becomes viable for non-kill CC, you still have the problem that Harrow has to compete with DPS for kills.

But he's not a DPS, and if you nerf Saryn, Mesa, etc to the point where Harrow does compete with them you make him OP. 

He's a support that needs to hog the kills. That's what I mean by "selfish".

13 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

this is only partially correct. if the person who is killing the most enemies is trying to lvl equipment they will get almost nothing but will get affinity for what they are using to kill. the people who cant do anything will get all the affinity

This is one area where Harrow shines - you only get his buffs if you'd stay in affinity range of him, so he does help reduce player spread.

[000l000]

Le 28/04/2019 à 16:02, EinheriarJudith a dit :

saryn and mesa keep coming up because of their ridiculous killing range but if enemies are dead they dont need you. while invulnerable with his 4 you can still gain shield and over shield with condemn. his survivability is in the fact that condemn gives shield and overshield and that he can become invincible for a period (again healing is not turned off while you are invincible)

i can understand you feel he is squishy but you are going to have to grin and bear with it until DE rolls out a patch to buff shields (some of us are guessing they will because they are testing the waters with Hildryn) or you get Adaptation which makes him ridiculous but in a good way.

do not use penance infront of enemies who are not CC by condemn (or other CC), or not unless you are under the effects of his 4. playing smart is all you actually need.

No offense but if one has nothing else to do than trying to compete with Harrow TTK he's completely dumb and should definitely play solo or play anything but a coop game. If one is playing Harrow the least one could do is to allow him to kill some enemies to help the entire team.

Once again, there's absolutely no issue with this frame but only with individualistic players. The only thing DE could do would be to nerf "press X to win" powers and weapons and make common guns viable again.

[EinheriarJudith]

4 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

No offense but if one has nothing else to do than trying to compete with Harrow TTK he's completely dumb and should definitely play solo or play anything but a coop game. If one is playing Harrow the least one could do is to allow him to kill some enemies to help the entire team.

Once again, there's absolutely no issue with this frame but only with individualistic players. The only thing DE could do would be to nerf "press X to win" powers and weapons and make common guns viable again.

i am of the same mind. i was just stating a truth. if there are no enemies then no support is needed because no one is taking damage or needs energy.

[(PSN)BenHeisennberg]

It isn't really that hard to get kills with Harrow.  Saryn still can't move faster than something like a whip.  His biggest downfall is the existence of Trinity as a much easier and stronger support character.

[000l000]

il y a 5 minutes, EinheriarJudith a dit :

i am of the same mind. i was just stating a truth. if there are no enemies then no support is needed because no one is taking damage or needs energy.

That's quite a common flaw some frames are sharing though. Without cannon fodder some frames powers are definitely impaired and thus these aren't much viable against bosses for example. I don't understand why DE keeps designing such kits (Garuda for the latest example) but at this point i don't even think they really care since they still launch frames that can't even run some kind of content at all (Hildryn, if you hear me).

[EinheriarJudith]

2 minutes ago, 000l000 said:

That's quite a common flaw some frames are sharing though. Without cannon fodder some frames powers are definitely impaired and thus these aren't much viable against bosses for example. I don't understand why DE keeps designing such kits (Garuda for the latest example) but at this point i don't even think they really care since they still launch frames that can't even run some kind of content at all (Hildryn, if you hear me).

 

16 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

ive been noticing that frame powers seem to be tuned more towards when enemies start actually being able to fight back. in low-mid lvls even heavy units are fodder. but around 60-100 seems to be where some of these powers actually start being worth using.

i absolutely agree.

[(XBOX)GameNerd300]

On 2019-04-29 at 11:14 AM, Gurpgork said:

This is a result of Warframe having a really unhealthy coop atmosphere. Enemies are so trivial to kill and it's possible for one player to kill so many of them at once that most missions become a competition between other players of "how much can I realistically contribute if there's a Saryn?" 

Having four players in your squad should mean that everyone needs to contribute for the squad to succeed. Right now, getting swarmed with enemies just means that whoever picked the nuker just gets more affinity. 

You're so effin right! lol every time i'm in a squad with a Saryn, Equinox, or any room killing frame I barely provide buffs as Harrow because I need bodies to make those buffs, and before I can even aim at an enemy, It's either been corroded to death, blasted to hell and back, or melted. You really notice the anti-synergy with other frames even more with Revenant and his thralls. Players kill them the moment they see them or accidentally kill them.

[Benour]

He has team heal/energy regen but how many times you actually help your team with it? Yeah almost never cause teammates has to be in his 3 range and YOU have to do the killing. So when you actually want heal somebody it almost never work its pretty much useless its faster to let them go down and then ress them in 5 seconds with invulnerable operator.

So what i did i pumped 220% power str, like 100% range, negative effi and like 180% duration with vitality/adaptation/QT and just go ham on weapons. I made him just weapons platform just like mirage or max power str rhino. And man hes fun as hell, even more SOLO. Yes hes awesome solo support, makes sense right!? Screw team be selfish!