Honest question. Is self harm really necessary in this game?

[Buttaface]

Self damage is extremely useful in WF to help me determine very quickly whether to use a weapon or never touch it.

[TheLexiConArtist]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

ad hominem attack with zero address of the actual content

lul, sorry but no.

What we have over there is called an echo chamber. The more vocal people post and cultivate a perspective which is not necessarily true, and systemically bury opposing viewpoints ensuring that this perspective will seed into the minds of others due to lack of visible counterpoints.
Others have called it "a solid read" and "one of the most in-depth posts on the topic (which has, as expected, been immediately downvoted)" so no, I'm right in claiming that there is a strongarming of opinion going on. Imagine if we could downvote here, what would have happened to us who argued for balance back during the height of Tonkor Meta?

As to the veracity of my argument itself, if you actually read the thread more than the auto-linked sentence, you'd see that I have dissected past, present and potential future in a display of why no/irrelevant self damage is bad and DE accepted that, what is wrong now, and how it can be changed to maintain the mechanic while bringing it into reasonable use cases.

Now then.

12 hours ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Lets start with so called "skill games" like destiny (*snort*) or call of duty, others.... Where you're expected to sorta know how your chosen weapons work... In these games they have in game tells...

Then lets take a look at more adventurous games ... will often, when you hold down the grenade button, show a ballistic arc, with an on ground circle indicating area of effect, giving you clear distinct feedback "your grenade will go here, and it will damage this area, don't be there.

Some games even have a heads up for things like placed mines and such that will give sort of a pulsing sphere of influence telling you where the "Self harming weapon" is, and what it's area of effect will be.... 

Warframe... Does none of these. It doesn't give you feedback what the area of effect for your explosive will be until after you've pulled the trigger, and ultimately that feedback will be "you survived" or "you didn't survive"... You have no way of knowing if you are too close to your target or explosive other than rough guess... In many cases, unless things have changed since my last time using say the ogris or talons, you might not even see an explosion, you'll just set them off and be dead. 

Overall, Warframe's strategy is learning through experience. It's called mastering a weapon for a reason. The idea - which was especially clear during the days when you didn't get MR as pre-emptive mod capacity - was that you'd take your fresh and weak explosive gear out and hit yourself occasionally in the process of levelling it. But it'd be fine, because it's soft enough to not kill you then. You grow used to the weapon, you know its radius (with and without Firestorm), so by the time it's fatal you can not kill yourself if you're competent.

There also are some tells in Warframe. Obivously the Lenz shows this, but don't forget the Tonkor shows a firing arc as well.

In addition to this, we have tech in the game that could be transplanted over from the Elytron archwing, which places UI markers on its projectiles. This would help you not jump forwards into an Ogris rocket in-flight, not get a Tonkor bounce-back you're not aware of, and you wouldn't forget that a Penta grenade happens to be under your feet.

5 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

accidentally shoot your squadmate in the back with your Ogris, and instead of insta death you lose all shields/health down to 1?

Pojectile collision on allies should simply be disabled for anything that has no productive use case on it. Contact explosives being one such example, as opposed to say, Castanas you could attach to your ally then trigger from a distance when they go meleeing some heavy targets.

[MixtheBlender]

Of course hell no. Aside from self damage enable gimmicks like vex armor, self damage has brought nothing but frustration. There are tons of weapons that are capable of mass destruction with no such drawback.

Plus that joke of a mod cautious shot. Which didn't really solve any problem caused by self damage at all aside from wasting a precious mod slot. If you realize how limiting our warframe hp scales, even a 1% damage from a weapon capable of dealing 1 million damage is capable of one shotting most of the frames with vitality mod on.

I'm usually okay with powerful weapon having drawbacks like low reload, low ammo mag, or low fire rate. For a weapon that I'm gonna use to murder enemies with and min-max mods to bring out its destruction, self damage is a pure hindrance.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

*Self aggrandizing but largely unfounded opinions*

You might find people downvote you less if you actually engage in reasoned discussion instead of insisting on blind validation. I'm sorry but I'm really not going to discuss this matter with you further because it's clear your only interest here is to promote your own philosophy without actually considering alternatives. 

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

You might find people downvote you less if you actually engage in reasoned discussion instead of insisting on blind validation. I'm sorry but I'm really not going to discuss this matter with you further because it's clear your only interest here is to promote your own philosophy without actually considering alternatives. 

Actually I have addressed commonly suggested alternatives and continue to do so. You seem to be the one exhibiting that attitude considering you've abjectly declined commenting on the actual counterpoints and criticisms, and my proposed solution.

It's not self aggrandising to point out an ad-hominem when you see one. If I was just being a prick I wouldn't have taken your additional post there and brought some opposing reasoning for that too. Hell, someone opposing in my thread actually helped me realise a deficit of my approach when it came to multishot, which I had to solve.

If you don't want to hear a full spectrum of answers (where mine is effectively "yes, but ideally with these changes") then you shouldn't post an open question. Kindly don't vilify me for disagreeing.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

hm weapons that explode and do aoe dmg without punch through. Said explosion killing me cause i got careless... hm...

Could just not use the weapons that blow or pay attention like srsly. If it explodes don't be surprised that it kills you cause you get too close ffs. 

*seasoned explosives main* 

The way we move makes it so easy to avoid getting blasted. 

Self dmg mostly punishes players that want to brain dead the game. Want to brain dead the game use one of the hundreds of weapons without explosions and give it punch through. Boom. You won't get the same aoe coverage but close. No, beams are not being counted cause they are currently pretty busted atm :P

[akots]

This thread and a nice serendipitous riven drop inspired me to get Secura penta.  Now, this one is amazing. I got 120% critical chance and it shreds everything with Hunter munitions. I tried it on two frames, Mag and Limbo. Mag for obvious reasons and Limbo works miracles. You can pop out of rift, shoot at your feet or wherever the enemies are, pop back in and blow it all up. Quite a hilarious weapon for indiscriminate crowd control. Can run it with Tether grenades against corpus and with Napalm grenades against everything else.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

5 minutes ago, akots said:

This thread and a nice serendipitous riven drop inspired me to get Secura penta.  Now, this one is amazing. I got 120% critical chance and it shreds everything with Hunter munitions. I tried it on two frames, Mag and Limbo. Mag for obvious reasons and Limbo works miracles. You can pop out of rift, shoot at your feet or wherever the enemies are, pop back in and blow it all up. Quite a hilarious weapon for indiscriminate crowd control. Can run it with Tether grenades against corpus and with Napalm grenades against everything else.

limbo and explosives is a good time.

[(XBOX)CertainLeader6]

On 2019-06-03 at 6:29 AM, (PS4)Black-Cat-Jinx said:

Okay so as this debate continues... Since I asked this question and didn't get an answer, I want to address how warframe handles explosive weapons that self damage compared to how other games handle them. And why people who in one game might be fine that "oops, I screwed up"... Where as in warframe they'll be "damn it not again!"
 

Well,you see, in a game like Warframe, a mistake can mean the difference between life and death. Just like in real life. 

 

On 2019-06-03 at 7:21 AM, Lone_Dude said:

TL;DR - self damaging weapons in Warframe don't work because they don't reward the player for taken risks properly, they also don't synergise well with fast-paced gameplay and movement system the game has. And Warframe is certainly not realistic enough to use "explosions harm everyone logic".

High risk high reward. And the movement in Warframe is meant for stealth, as there is a legit caption under the title, that says Ninjas Play Free. People just prefer going suicidal mode and charge in guns blazing, and next thing you know, your out of ammo because you overly rely your guns, and get the sh1t3 beat out of them

[Kontrollo]

Generally I think it's fine, makes the weapons more unique, risk and reward, etc. If only they could balance them properly, too. But it's DE, and I think we all know that's not their strength. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Now playing devil's advocate due to a pet peeve of mine:

Yes it's really necessary, and weapons like Catchmoon should have it, too.

Anything that goes big on AoE, visual effects and particles, which can then be modded in the most obnoxious colours should have big self damage, so that people learn to not point it at nearby allies.

[Xzorn]

Yes and No. Inconsistency plays a large reason for it being both. Some AoE hurts you, others don't.

On the Yes side:  It should not one-shot you. It should not be a mod fix or bounce off other player abilities.

On the No side: Plenty of AoE in the game doesn't self damage so the key balance element of Self damage is somewhat null.

Personally I think the easy fix is to simply cause %True Damage based on max Health+Shields with damage fall-off. ie A point blank blast to the face would be 50% of your combined max Health / Shields in True damage while a glace or splash damage would do 20%.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Considering that pets, hostages, specters, any non player controlled characters within a mission can randomly jump in front of the barrel, I say get rid of it. Or let it pass right through friendly units like every other weapon in the game. Oh yeah I parkour, bullet jump all over the place. Once I stop to aim, something just decide to run right pass me because my momentum pulls them forward.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

1 hour ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

Considering that pets, hostages, specters, any non player controlled characters within a mission can randomly jump in front of the barrel, I say get rid of it. Or let it pass right through friendly units like every other weapon in the game. Oh yeah I parkour, bullet jump all over the place. Once I stop to aim, something just decide to run right pass me because my momentum pulls them forward.

aimgliding is explosives best friend. Reduces risk of getting blasted by your own explosives to almost 0%

[Doomclaaw]

On 2019-06-03 at 12:47 AM, -OP-NerevarCM said:

Yes. Why? Tonkor before the nerf. That's what happens when you have an AoE weapon with massive damage and no drawbacks. You use it like a shotgun.

This. And I pray to the Void that we never return to that nightmare....

[NinjaZeku]

6 hours ago, (XB1)CertainLeader6 said:

game like Warframe [...] Just like in real life

Does not compute.

6 hours ago, (XB1)CertainLeader6 said:

High risk high reward.

But it's not. It's high risk, mediocre-at-best reward.

6 hours ago, (XB1)CertainLeader6 said:

the movement in Warframe is meant for stealth

A massive amount of content straight-up makes stealth impossible.

This is a horde shooter, where sometimes you have the option of stealth.

4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

makes the weapons more unique, risk and reward, etc. If only they could balance them properly, too

Very much this. Up the effectiveness against enemies far enough that the suicide risk becomes warranted.

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

simply cause %True Damage based on max Health+Shields with damage fall-off.

That'd also work. Hek, you could have both, and more.

Some Launchers (with amazing damage per shot) could kill you easily,
some (say, more spammy ones) would work on this % basis, some might even have non-damage drawbacks,
e.g. forced Blast procs / temporary debuffs that can't be circumvented / mitigated by Mods / abilities.

Edited June 6, 2019 by NinjaZeku

[Lone_Dude]

6 hours ago, (XB1)CertainLeader6 said:

Well,you see, in a game like Warframe, a mistake can mean the difference between life and death. Just like in real life. 

 

High risk high reward. And the movement in Warframe is meant for stealth, as there is a legit caption under the title, that says Ninjas Play Free. People just prefer going suicidal mode and charge in guns blazing, and next thing you know, your out of ammo because you overly rely your guns, and get the sh1t3 beat out of them

Well, you see, the point is that I don't have to worry about making mistakes as long as I have a non-self-damage weapon. There are no high rewards for high risks. My KPS is much higher if I use just about ANY meta weapons, than let's say Ogris when it comes to higher level play. That's the point. Such weapons simply don't pull their weight. If Ogris dealt 3000 damage per rocket or had crits - there would be a "high reward" for my troubles. Right now there is none, yet it kills me all the same. So I can just use something like Opticor over it and lose NOTHING. Why bother slowing myself down, while in game modes like ESO and survival I literally have to be quick about killing things?

Movement in warframe is not made for stealth. It's meant for moving fast lmao. Your wet dreams about stealthy ninjas died long ago, this game is now a full on shooter. Unless you think that sliding around as an invi frame with a melee modifier is a pinnacle of stealth. And buddy, if you can't rely on guns - your guns are bad. Try harder.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

1 hour ago, NinjaZeku said:

Does not compute.

 

I was about to be like "wut...."

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

3 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Does not compute..

Update 29.10.1 - Fantasy Not Reality

• Fixed hitscan detecting targets directly under the reticle, intended targets must now be located 45 degrees to the right and 30 degrees above reticle position to avoid simulating the realism of shooting directly where weapon is pointed.
• Projectiles now travel in randomized spirals as we discovered that predictable travel paths based on a launch vector and velocity was a mechanic found in 'real life'

 

That's how absurd sweeping generalisation like that sounds. Warframe may not be a precise simulator of reality but 'cause and effect' is not something you can 'lol vidja game' away.

I mean, the original statement is so abstracted that you, criticising it, are suggesting that statements such as "I stood in front of the dying Orb mother taking no action to mitigate or avoid the explosion and died, clearly a bug as mistakes should not cause consequences in Warframe, DE pls fix" are logically sound.

[NinjaZeku]

10 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

absurd sweeping generalisation

I'm not saying I'm against logic and things following rules / balance standards,
I'm saying "it works like this in real life" is not always a good enough reason to put it into a game.

Games are, in no small part, about abstractions, you pick and choose what carries over from the RLs, and to what degree.

There is a place for self-damage in Warframe (I believe), but the current implementation is simply not balanced.

_{(BTW, please don't add stuff to my quote that wasn't there, even if it's only an extra period,
I'd rather not have my posts look like those of a certain poster that overuses ellipses to the extreme, thankyouverymuch.)}

Edited June 6, 2019 by NinjaZeku

[TheLexiConArtist]

9 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

I'm not saying I'm against logic and things following rules / balance standards,
I'm saying "it works like this in real life" is not always a good enough reason to put it into a game.

Games are, in no small part, about abstractions, you pick and choose what carries over from the RLs, and to what degree.

There is a place for self-damage in Warframe (I believe), but the current implementation is simply not balanced.

Not wrong at all, but you should have expanded that in your response up there.  As it is, it just looks like a very shortsighted jab saying that video games and reality can never be related.

I admit the response was a little curt, but some people are too impressionable and need to be reminded that while 'real life' isn't always a hard-line reason for something, that doesn't mean it's never a reason for anything.

Games are about abstractions, and many things can diverge from realism. When you change a rule, though, you should be able to justify the difference internally (maintaining consistency and balance) and externally (why this is different, an explanation that isn't just 'A Wizard Did It').

 

When we had the Tonkor meta, one of the identifiers was unjustified inconsistency. All the other 'conventional' explosives self-damaged in a scalable manner (when they could be scaled) where the Tonkor was.. irrelevant to begin with and ignorant of mods. Since it was also overpowered, it failed on every metric. Bad consistency, bad balance, and why don't you take damage from this one? A (Space) Wizard Did It, I suppose.

That's not to say self-damage is always the answer. Tonkor meta was sistered with Simulor meta. Which was still bad for balance (and obnoxious in every regard.. I can barely believe it's now even worse visually), but lacked the consistency question. Additionally, when you look at the properties of the Simulor, it was clear that there was no real way a player wouldn't hit themselves with its self damage.
So we didn't get self-damage on the Simulors. They got brought out of imbalance with other factors - mechanical shifts and damage shifts - so the local Mirage didn't PRANG PRANG PRANG their way through missions without ever actually caring where enemies were.

 

Unfortunately, between power creep (enemies and ourselves both) and the fact that the self-damaging Tonkor was a far-too-hesitant change to be made and only happened after collateral damage was done... we also end up with the problem that our self-damage model isn't appropriate any more (due to linearity of the relationship) so, yes, we need a change. That change just isn't throwing the entire mechanic out and repeating past mistakes.

The history from which to learn exists, it shouldn't be ignored.

_{I didn't add anything to the quote, by the way, I must have just missed one from the end of your post when I was selecting the rest of the content to trim out.}

Edited June 6, 2019 by TheLexiConArtist

[MJ12]

On 2019-06-02 at 8:49 PM, akots said:

IMHO, self-damage is nice to have. It adds a pinch of realism into an otherwise not very realistic space fairy tale style game. It is very limited and has no noticeable impact in general apart from some occasional minor annoyance and similar minor exploitation by a few frames. IMHO, let it be, it is a little reminder that not everything obeys the space sorcery laws.

What pinch of realism? Self-harm from launchers, in fact, is more unrealistic than a lack of self-harm.

Tenno are hardened, shock-resistant cyborgs who can hit the ground at terminal velocity for humans and get up no worse for wear, have skeletal structures strong enough to stay intact while wielding massive melee weapons and hitting hard objects with them without snapping their wrists, have multiple-redundant organs and hard dermal armor ("sword-steel"), and many of them have significant additional armor that makes them heavily resistant to almost all enemy weapons. This would realistically make them virtually immune to non-directional explosives designed for antipersonnel work. Explosives are absolute crap against hard targets without using directional detonations (explosively formed penetrators or HEAT rounds), and directional explosions, for obvious reasons, deal damage directionally, i.e. not behind them, i.e. not to their user. There's a reason Vietnam era flak jackets and steel helmets, which didn't provide any meaningful protection against bullets, would drastically cut down on the ability of grenades and artillery shells to injure soldiers. 

All Tenno basically have full-body flak jackets and possess much tougher internal systems than a normal human, and therefore should shrug off non-impact explosives extremely well.

Furthermore, realistically, modern launchers have minimum arming distances that significantly exceed their kill radii. The M203's minimum arming range is 15 to 30 meters away from the launcher, with a kill radius of 5 meters. A Javelin ATGM requires a minimum arming distance of ~50 meters. Realistically, firing a modern-tech explosive weapon too close to you shouldn't kill you, it should make the explosive weapon not explode because the munition failed to arm.

And all this is ignoring that Warframe takes place in the far future where more advanced munitions fuses and munitions designs exist which would make self-damage even more 'unrealistic.' As a random example, Tenno-used launchers might be Selectively Aimable Warheads, which specifically aim their explosions at nearby enemies, rather than having omnidirectional explosions. Tenno are tough enough that the reduced blast and shockwave of said SAWs would be easily shrugged off. They might incorporate IFF systems that can selectively deactivate the weapon fuse if a friendly or noncombatant is in the kill radius. They might be given smart fuses which will only detonate them where they'll do the most good, rather than dumb fuses.

Self-harm in Warframe is not actually realistic.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

3 hours ago, MJ12 said:

What pinch of realism? Self-harm from launchers, in fact, is more unrealistic than a lack of self-harm.

Tenno are hardened, shock-resistant cyborgs who can hit the ground at terminal velocity for humans and get up no worse for wear, have skeletal structures strong enough to stay intact while wielding massive melee weapons and hitting hard objects with them without snapping their wrists, have multiple-redundant organs and hard dermal armor ("sword-steel"), and many of them have significant additional armor that makes them heavily resistant to almost all enemy weapons. This would realistically make them virtually immune to non-directional explosives designed for antipersonnel work. Explosives are absolute crap against hard targets without using directional detonations (explosively formed penetrators or HEAT rounds), and directional explosions, for obvious reasons, deal damage directionally, i.e. not behind them, i.e. not to their user. There's a reason Vietnam era flak jackets and steel helmets, which didn't provide any meaningful protection against bullets, would drastically cut down on the ability of grenades and artillery shells to injure soldiers. 

All Tenno basically have full-body flak jackets and possess much tougher internal systems than a normal human, and therefore should shrug off non-impact explosives extremely well.

Furthermore, realistically, modern launchers have minimum arming distances that significantly exceed their kill radii. The M203's minimum arming range is 15 to 30 meters away from the launcher, with a kill radius of 5 meters. A Javelin ATGM requires a minimum arming distance of ~50 meters. Realistically, firing a modern-tech explosive weapon too close to you shouldn't kill you, it should make the explosive weapon not explode because the munition failed to arm.

And all this is ignoring that Warframe takes place in the far future where more advanced munitions fuses and munitions designs exist which would make self-damage even more 'unrealistic.' As a random example, Tenno-used launchers might be Selectively Aimable Warheads, which specifically aim their explosions at nearby enemies, rather than having omnidirectional explosions. Tenno are tough enough that the reduced blast and shockwave of said SAWs would be easily shrugged off. They might incorporate IFF systems that can selectively deactivate the weapon fuse if a friendly or noncombatant is in the kill radius. They might be given smart fuses which will only detonate them where they'll do the most good, rather than dumb fuses.

Self-harm in Warframe is not actually realistic.

Shrapnel is a thing tho. Especially if the explosives are designed to utilize projectiles using the explosion to propel their flight. 

Also no the frames aren't cybernetic as they are mostly made of infested flesh. Infested are rather vulnerable to explosives. There's also the issue of the type of armor Players have which is ferrite which has a healthy number of weaknesses unlike alloy.  Heavily resistant to most weapons? No not really. Especially at higher levels triple digits+

The Javelin is a anti tank warhead with lock on, being that it's a warhead it needs the distance based arming so it doesn't accidentally kill it's own troops. Also there's velocity based arming which once it hits the required speed would arm the explosives. If it's the latter then it's very easy to picture that being able to kill the player. Also omnidirectional explosions are the default unless the explosive is intended for a specific purpose like heavy armor busting/building destruction or nailing a bunker. 

 

Now let's look at the weapons that all have self dmg and are considered explosives.

Castanas which emit electric currents in all directions around it.

Talons which explode in all directions.

Kulstar which is a pocket launcher that shoots projectiles backwards from initial explosion.

Angstrum which shoots multiple explosives per shot and charge shot dumps the whole clip simulating a mini carpet bomb.

Ogris which shoots a rocket with small splash and can be outfitted to spew fire in all directions of where it exploded.

Tonkor think it's been talked about enough so moving on.

Penta pews out explosives that can explode on impact with an augment, stick to others with another and remotely detonates by default or with sticky augment.

Lenz fires off a omnidirectional dual detonation projectile.

Zarr which hurls cannon fire and upon detonation spawns bomblets that explode further.

Phantasma alt fire big splash of plasma that spawns roaming projectiles upon detonation.

Larkspur alt fire big splash of almost plasma with decent coverage.

Hildryns Balefire firing like a bigger splashing Staticor.

Any weapon with Concealed Explosives/Thunderbolt.

Glaives/Wolf Sledge when thrown and detonated after throwing.

 

Many of these weapons all splash in a 360 range or detonate multiple times. Making it understandable for them to be able to blast the user. Even moreso when you remember the Tenno aren't nigh indestructible cyber golems. Also last i checked we're not toting around explosives meant to blow up something massive enough to warrant distance/velocity or smart arming. Like to blow up a formorian or a corpus tradeship.

So self dmg in the game actually is pretty realistic. 

 

 Also last i checked we're not firing Warheads. yet x: The day we get a fatman slingshot weapon in this game will be glorious. OR a MIRV like weapon like from Fallout 3.

 

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, MJ12 said:

What pinch of realism? Self-harm from launchers, in fact, is more unrealistic than a lack of self-harm.

Tenno are hardened, shock-resistant cyborgs who //  basically have full-body flak jackets and possess much tougher internal systems than a normal human, and therefore should shrug off non-impact explosives extremely well.

Furthermore, realistically, modern launchers have minimum arming distances that significantly exceed their kill radii. 

And all this is ignoring that Warframe takes place in the far future where more advanced munitions fuses and munitions designs exist which would make self-damage even more 'unrealistic.'

Self-harm in Warframe is not actually realistic.

First, regarding the Tenno. We're resistant in some cases and just as papery in others, depending on the frame. Despite any of that, we get annihilated by good old NpcThrownGrenadeWeapon just the same. The Grineer strikes against Tenno targets where they anticipate Warframe opposition still use Bombards and Napalms where you'd 'expect' these to be solely utilised on, say, Grineer/Corpus conflicts because they just Shouldn't Work on Tenno armours by your argument. For each claim of 'future tech' against self-damage, there's an equal claim that the tech surrounding it would need to handle it. What of Grineer armour? What are Corpus shields? Sure, they're 'human' for want of a better word underneath, but they still have ambiguously-futuristic protections that we might have to make an explosive equally capable of harming Warframes as it is of harming their intended targets.

On top of that, you should definitely remember that many of these weapons literally oiriginate from our enemies.  This matters for two reasons; one because it supports the 'capable of harming Warframes' criterion, and another that countermands the idea of 'future tech' smart-fuses.

We get into thematics at this point. Let's look, thematically, at the enemy factions.

1. Grineer are notoriously unsafe practices, cobbling together Whatever Works with semi-reckless abandon. They'd rather grow new clones than worry about making their explosives 'safe' (at the cost of maybe not working 'for the greater good'). Also don't forget these are the dudes that literally take a guy and strap bombs to his fists to hit you with. (Inferior Ghouls) Any weapon from Grineer is unrealistic to expect safety mechanics.
2. Corpus are miserly corporate overlords. What do money-grubbing corporations do? They cut corners. One grunt Crewman blowing himself up? That's just one less wage needing to be paid! They would not shell out the money to research and fit adequate safety measures on all mass-produced weapons. Corpus-origin gear is therefore fair game for 'dumb' fuses.
3. Infested are a hive mind. Hive minds care not for the individual. I mean, they literally already have Volatile Runners. infested-base weaponry would by no means necessarily be self-safe. The hive wouldn't care as long as the threat was removed.
4. Sentient? Maybe these would be concerned, with the whole void-barren thing going on making every loss pertinent to them. But on the other hand, maybe they just adapt to their own exploding. Sentient-based weaponry may or may not be fitted with smart-arming.

So that means that we have one source from enemies that is currently very shallow, and possibly only pure Tenno-faction-created weaponry that would be fitted with concerns for personal risk. Even Orokin-make wouldn't necessarily be equipped to care. The Gilded Gods wouldn't be doing such crass things as fighting for themselves, and they certainly don't care enough about the rest of the castes 'so far beneath them' to make a mandate of it for their sakes.

[MJ12]

1 hour ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

Shrapnel is a thing tho. Especially if the explosives are designed to utilize projectiles using the explosion to propel their flight. 

Shrapnel is extremely bad against armored targets. Guess what all Warframes have! That's right, armor. Also "if the explosives are designed to utilize projectiles using the explosion to propel their flight" that's what we call an explosively formed penetrator, which is a form of directional explosive, which means you shouldn't have self-damage because most of the explosion force is being directed forward, not backward.

1 hour ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

Also no the frames aren't cybernetic as they are mostly made of infested flesh. Infested are rather vulnerable to explosives. There's also the issue of the type of armor Players have which is ferrite which has a healthy number of weaknesses unlike alloy.  Heavily resistant to most weapons? No not really. Especially at higher levels triple digits+

Warframes are made with components including control modules (an AI subprocessor for robotic units), neural sensors (interface for cybernetic implants), and orokin cells (mechanical power sources). They are, in fact, cyborgs with armor. Explosions are very bad at damaging cyborgs with armor. And Warframes are, in fact, heavily resistant to most weapons. Ballas specifically calls them out as being extremely durable, and outside of endless survivals you can take a lot of gunfire with a tanky Warframe and hardly go down to one or two shots from anything other than heavy weapons.

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

The Javelin is a anti tank warhead with lock on, being that it's a warhead it needs the distance based arming so it doesn't accidentally kill it's own troops. Also there's velocity based arming which once it hits the required speed would arm the explosives. If it's the latter then it's very easy to picture that being able to kill the player. Also omnidirectional explosions are the default unless the explosive is intended for a specific purpose like heavy armor busting/building destruction or nailing a bunker. 

First off, Warframe is the future. Nanotechnology exists and is common. Computers and materials science are both far more advanced than today. It's perfectly plausible-in fact, it's probably more plausible than anything else in Warframe for directional explosives to be nigh-nonexistent because literally every explosive in the game needs to be directional to be effective.

Second, most of the things Warframes fight are going to be tough. Grineer are massive cyborgs. Corpus wear heavy suits and are heavily shielded and use shielded robotic combatants. Infested are incredibly tough, fast-healing nanotech-mutated killers. Sentients are heavily armored adaptable robots.

1 hour ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

 

Now let's look at the weapons that all have self dmg and are considered explosives.

Many of these weapons all splash in a 360 range or detonate multiple times. Making it understandable for them to be able to blast the user. Even moreso when you remember the Tenno aren't nigh indestructible cyber golems. Also last i checked we're not toting around explosives meant to blow up something massive enough to warrant distance/velocity or smart arming. Like to blow up a formorian or a corpus tradeship.

So self dmg in the game actually is pretty realistic. 

The M203, an infantry grenade launcher, has a minimum arming distance in its fuse. The OICW put a smart fuse in a 20mm grenade. Last I checked, the explosive weapons Tenno use are perfectly large enough to qualify for smart fusing. I literally told you that the M203 has a minimum arming distance greater than its kill radius.

1 hour ago, (PS4)chibitonka said:

 Also last i checked we're not firing Warheads. yet x: The day we get a fatman slingshot weapon in this game will be glorious. OR a MIRV like weapon like from Fallout 3.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/warhead

A warhead is literally just the part of any missile or rocket that contains explosives.

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

First, regarding the Tenno. We're resistant in some cases and just as papery in others, depending on the frame. Despite any of that, we get annihilated by good old NpcThrownGrenadeWeapon just the same. The Grineer strikes against Tenno targets where they anticipate Warframe opposition still use Bombards and Napalms where you'd 'expect' these to be solely utilised on, say, Grineer/Corpus conflicts because they just Shouldn't Work on Tenno armours by your argument. For each claim of 'future tech' against self-damage, there's an equal claim that the tech surrounding it would need to handle it. What of Grineer armour? What are Corpus shields? Sure, they're 'human' for want of a better word underneath, but they still have ambiguously-futuristic protections that we might have to make an explosive equally capable of harming Warframes as it is of harming their intended targets.

Here's the thing. You seem to think that explosives with 'safety features' are less dangerous than explosives without. This isn't true. The benefit of directionally fused explosives is that they actually deal damage more effectively to targets because they waste less energy on things that aren't the target.

Your entire post is based on the belief that weapons more effective against enemies must also be more dangerous to the users. The exact opposite is true. Safety measures either have zero effect on the actual lethality of the munition (minimum arming distances) or actually increase the effectiveness of the weapon (aimable/directional blasts) against hardened targets. Every joule that goes into potential lethal backblast is a joule that is being wasted because it's not hitting the enemy. In fact, an ideal explosive weapon will only put its force into enemies and be perfectly safe for your ally standing right next to it.

And no, according to my argument Bombards and Napalms should work just fine. Napalms don't actually use explosive blast (they're incendiaries) for one, which aren't completely ineffective against hardened targets. Nothing in the game or out of game suggests that Bombards don't use some sort of selectively aimable warhead which would channel the blast towards enemies rather than having an ineffective omnidirectional blast-and in fact the Ogris blast radius when used by enemies (i.e. against Tenno) is much smaller than the Ogris blast radius against other targets. This suggests that against Tenno, you need to use more focused warheads, or that Tenno use HE-FRAG instead of HEAP rounds because many of their foes aren't heavily armored, and therefore the Tenno Ogris shouldn't do significant self-damage.

1 minute ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

On top of that, you should definitely remember that many of these weapons literally oiriginate from our enemies.  This matters for two reasons; one because it supports the 'capable of harming Warframes' criterion, and another that countermands the idea of 'future tech' smart-fuses.

We get into thematics at this point. Let's look, thematically, at the enemy factions.

1. Grineer are notoriously unsafe practices, cobbling together Whatever Works with semi-reckless abandon. They'd rather grow new clones than worry about making their explosives 'safe' (at the cost of maybe not working 'for the greater good'). Also don't forget these are the dudes that literally take a guy and strap bombs to his fists to hit you with. (Inferior Ghouls) Any weapon from Grineer is unrealistic to expect safety mechanics.
2. Corpus are miserly corporate overlords. What do money-grubbing corporations do? They cut corners. One grunt Crewman blowing himself up? That's just one less wage needing to be paid! They would not shell out the money to research and fit adequate safety measures on all mass-produced weapons. Corpus-origin gear is therefore fair game for 'dumb' fuses.
3. Infested are a hive mind. Hive minds care not for the individual. I mean, they literally already have Volatile Runners. infested-base weaponry would by no means necessarily be self-safe. The hive wouldn't care as long as the threat was removed.
4. Sentient? Maybe these would be concerned, with the whole void-barren thing going on making every loss pertinent to them. But on the other hand, maybe they just adapt to their own exploding. Sentient-based weaponry may or may not be fitted with smart-arming.

So that means that we have one source from enemies that is currently very shallow, and possibly only pure Tenno-faction-created weaponry that would be fitted with concerns for personal risk. Even Orokin-make wouldn't necessarily be equipped to care. The Gilded Gods wouldn't be doing such crass things as fighting for themselves, and they certainly don't care enough about the rest of the castes 'so far beneath them' to make a mandate of it for their sakes.

The enemies of the Tenno are not some primitive bunch who can't build modern technology, so this doesn't countermand the idea of future tech smart fuses. The idea that they can harm Tenno also supports the idea of future-tech smart fuses, because dumb explosives are inefficient and ineffective ways to harm fast-moving armored targets, while smart fuses make these weapons more effective.

The Grineer use extremely hastily grown and deformed clones as line troops, who cannot be trusted to use unsafe explosive weapons effectively. Meanwhile, they are led by fairly intelligent, tactically adept commanders. Grineer explosive weapons should all have safety measures because the Grineer don't want an idiot clone blowing up their entire squad and disrupting their battle plans. Furthermore we know that Grineer are actually surprisingly technologically adept, this is literally stated in the Fragments. They make extensive use of smart weapons like the Bombard Ogris and the Buzlok. The Bombard who, by the way, is more than willing to fire his Ogris at point-blank range, almost as if he wasn't concerned about self-damage. Ghouls are flash grown creatures that are used as initial vanguards and exist mostly to absorb fire, and the Ghoul Expired is in fact a literal Ghoul corpse that is incapable of doing much more than being a fast zombie. Importantly, Ghoul expired explosives aren't nearly as self-destructive as Tenno ones either, because if you set off one of their bombs it just blows off their arm. This suggests directional explosives with greatly reduced backblast.

The Corpus sell their weapons to others. The buyers of said weapons would probably want basic features like "won't be more dangerous to us than to the enemy" included in their weapons and "will actually be able to direct their force effectively against hardened targets" as well, since that's kind of the point of a weapon. Furthermore the Corpus probably wouldn't want a single incorrectly brainwashed Crewman with a launcher to sabotage their entire operation by firing their launcher inside of their dropship or something. This means safety systems to stop mutinies from leading to mission failure.

The infested would probably want their munitions to not, you know, blow up their relatively advanced assets, because unlike Volatile Runners, the Infested units which actually wield what we think of as 'weaponry' are significantly rarer and more elite.

And fairly obviously the Tenno would want safe weapons because they're an elite force which doesn't want to lose their assets to accidents.

So there's sufficient justification for all major factions to use non-self-damaging weapons, especially when you consider that things like directional explosives and selectively aimed warheads exist not primarily as safety mechanisms but because by aiming the blast and shrapnel at things you don't like, rather than having it hit both things you do and don't like, you do more damage to the things you don't like. In fact, you have to jump through hoops, and deliberately make the game less realistic, to maintain an insistence on the frankly comical self-damage that exists in Warframe.

[(PSN)chibitonka]

 

15 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

Warframes are made with components including control modules (an AI subprocessor for robotic units), neural sensors (interface for cybernetic implants), and orokin cells (mechanical power sources). They are, in fact, cyborgs with armor. Explosions are very bad at damaging cyborgs with armor. And Warframes are, in fact, heavily resistant to most weapons. Ballas specifically calls them out as being extremely durable, and outside of endless survivals you can take a lot of gunfire with a tanky Warframe and hardly go down to one or two shots from anything other than heavy weapons.

Ah yes because Mag = Rhino. Not all warframes are tanky.

Armor is such a loose term. *puts on cardboard shaped like armor* Look i'm wearing armor. 

Armor doesn't mean jack in this game unless you have several thousands of it. Otherwise you're counting on an ability like Iron Skin or similar to mitigate the dmg which proves that the armor isn't doing anything of value. 

Don't take much dmg? Nightmare mode enemies would like to have a word with your frame. Same with Simulcrum minions for testing.

Funny the grineer have the same TYPE of armor the tenno have outside a few that are alloy armored. Yet our explosives can shred them so easily, and when we're not playing under lv100 stats they shred back just as well. Cause anything under lv100 is too weak to use for any serious argument.

Lastly the infested don't even use guns/explosive weapons. If it's not part of their body they ain't using it. 

 

Heh maybe self dmg would make sense in this ones eyes if we were using nuclear weapons. 

Actually we should just delete all existing self dmging weapons and replace them with nuclear launchers instead. Then ppl will stop this nonsense, cause it blowing up isn't enough of a reason for ppl to not just try rocket jumping off them like it's team fortress 2 or some crap.