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(PS4)TertulSee

Tier List Time. Opinions only. Feel free to make your own.

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It’s time to rank the frames again because I feel it’s appropriate to give them all a tier. All of these are opinion based. Also note that I did try all of these frames recently and I have a good idea on where they all are. Now, these are based on the frame itself and not their stats. Also, if a PC player would kindly rate Gauss (since he’s not on console yet) I could gather up the data and give him an average grade.

Grade meanings

S tier: Needs a nerf. They are either so incredibly OP that there needs to be a nerf or they just fit too well in the meta.

A tier: Really good. Not close to needing a nerf. These frames are pretty well balanced overall.

B tier: They’re average tier. If they are average, that means their not bad. They just have no abilities or functions that make them stand out.

C tier: Probably needs buffs or a rework. It’s pretty obvious they’re not doing so great. Generally needs a buff.

D tier: completely unusable.

F tier: they don’t exist

Abbreviations: ESO = Elite Sanctuary Onslaught

Terry: Teralyst

Tridolon: Teralyst, Gauntalyst, and Hydrolyst.

 

Ash (Prime): B+

Not exactly the best or the worst at anything. In fact, he’s a very versatile frame. He can strip armor, finisher enemies and go invisible. That is basically all you need to complete any star chart mission even if they are the Sortie. Also useful in Arbitrations and maybe ESO.

Atlas: A-

Like Ash but not as versatile. However, he can sustain in a Tridolon (not that you would ever use him) and he’s more useful in open world content. Good for Arbitrations, ESO, and anything that needs a tank.

Banshee (Prime): A+

A much more versatile frame overall. She can buff damage, remove armor in mass, and CC an entire map. While lacking in armor, she makes up in being completely unnecessarily powerful in other areas. Good in ESO, Arbitrations, and open world. Also good for killing bosses.

Baruuk: B+

To be honest, Baruuk lacks diversity. He can tank and sorta do damage. While that’s great in this meta, it’s not as great overall. Good in anything that needs a tank that can’t kill.

Chroma (Prime): A-

Not as versatile as someone like Ash but makes up for overwhelming power. Not top tier but no slouch either. He does enough damage to complete tear up other frames and put their damage to shame. Good at Tridolons and one-shotting Terry.

Ember (Prime): C+

The queen of fire is only good for non late game content. However, she’s really great at speed runs. However, her augments grant Ember a huge amount of damage buffs when combined making her possibly out buff other frames such as Rhino. Sorta good for Tridolons and maybe ESO.

Equinox (Prime): A+

One of the best frames to bring to about everything. She can buff buffs! She can deal damage! She can even sleep an entire map. Very versatile and is generally useful in all content. She excels in ESO and Abritrations.

Excalibur (Umbra) (Prime): B+

Unfortunately, Mr. Posterboy isn’t all that great anymore. Yes, he could work in just about everything but he also can’t. He can be a very good starter, he can CC, he can do damage. However, that damage can fall off as armor grows, he doesn’t do it as quickly as other frames and he generally lacks “late game” usefulness over all of the new frames. DE probably has a problem now since their first frame is falling off. I’m not saying he can’t do late game content, he just doesn’t have enough reason to be used over other frames. Yes, I know about Chromatic Blade and Condition Overload. It’s not gonna change the fact that he’s still sorta slow.

Frost (Prime): A

Just as versatile as Ash. He can do a lot of things but everyone knows that his home is Defense. He is probably one of the best frames to take to a defense mission. While he could be useful in Profit Taker or Tridolons, nothing really beats his usefulness in a defense.

Gara: S-

Super underrated frame. Gara is probably one of Warframe’s most broken frames. She’s really tanky, has a ton of CC, scaling damage, and she can take aggro off of allies. Yeah, she lacks in usefulness in Tridolons and Profit Taker, however, she can easily wreck through everything that takes ability damage.

Garuda: B

Garuda is a very solid frame. She can take some damage, she can kill, and her damage scales pretty well. While not as great as some other frames, she has scaling damage and more sustain than other frames. This makes her good at ESO and Arbitrations. 

Gauss: B

Harrow: A+

The king of the buffs. He grants you more damage, brief invincibility, sometimes heals you, gives energy, and has a ton of CC. Harrow is a great frame overall. He tends to require a bit more than press a button but he’s very good if used properly. His usefulness extends to Tridolon and Profit Taker but also to any other content in the game.

Hildryn: A-

A tank that doesn’t really do scaling damage. I feel her armor/shield removal kinda sucks. However, I do admit that Hildryn is really tanky. She’s only has shields but Adaptation is the only thing that is saving her from being trash tier. When she’s out there, she’s bringing the pain. While great overall, she’s kinda slow and she doesn’t really do that well without teammates.

Hydroid (Prime): A

Hydroid is probably the most underrated and most versatile frames in the game. He can do anything in the star chart but better than Ash. While Hydroid doesn’t have the same damage as Ash, he makes up for it being so flexible. He’s the most flexible frame on the game being that he makes enemies drop more loot, can remove armor in mass, can heal himself, and can hold a point longer than most frames. He’s a frame that I don’t see very often and I don’t know why that is. 

Inaros: S-

He’s short a little bit on the damage side but he’s literally invincible. It is absolutely ridiculous how incredibly difficult it is to die as Inaros. He has heals, can negate status, has pretty decent CC and even create sand clones. Inaros is just short of being a god in Warframe and he’s not even that versatile. It’s his tankiness that makes Inaros versatile because being invincible is OP.

Ivara: A+

Inaros but slower but also grants more loot. Ivara is also short of being a goddess because she doesn’t actually have to get shot. Also, people tend to underestimate to power of Artemis Bow. She could one shot Sortie bosses. The only reason she would no belong on a Tridolon team is the pure fact that she can’t  take damage. She will be one shot by the Tridolons in most occasions because they don’t care if you’re invisible. Ivara is just close. She’s not quite that OP but she’s no slouch either. 

Khora: A-

This one is a bit hard to rate because Venari is pretty OP. However, Khora would be much lower if it weren’t for Venari. Her entire kit is designed around the cat so it’s only fair that she counts as being a part of her kit. Khora is mediocre at best but excels at defense in most cases. While not super OP, she can sustain herself due to Venari. She’s not really tanky but she can deal some significant damage. She sorta scales solely because Kavats have a mod that removes armor.

Limbo (Prime): A

Horrifying as it may be, Limbo is really good. He can solo a lot of missions. He’s good at spies, defense and can be useful in Tridolons. However, while he’s not as great at Defense as Frost, he can can deal significant damage. Not too bad for a frame that could potentially cause the failure of a mission.

Loki (Prime): B-

Oh no, Loki is useless now. Gauss has put the nail in the coffin for this former god. Loki used to be the best but ever since the buff Vauban mentality start to go around, it about time to look at Loki. Loki, just like Vauban, has a pure utility kit! He has no damage abilities and the only thing saving him is his Irradiating Disarm. His invisibility has been outclassed by frames such as Wukong or Wisp. The rest of his kit wasn’t very useful the the first place. He used to have speed. Loki is useless now! I never would have thought or believed this but Loki is dead. This game has shifted a million miles away from Loki and now he’s in the gutter. What has this game become?

Mag (Prime): B+

Mag has so much armor removal, damage, and utility that she’s pretty good. While there isn’t anything that will buff your damage or something amongst those lines, Mag has the ability to deal a ton of damage no matter what the situation may be. She’s also quite tanky due to Adaptation being a thing and her ability to now generate Overshields like nothing. Just putting it out there.

Mesa (Prime): A+

Ever since Adaptation was released, Mesa is a monster of a tank. She can take damage, has CC and can deal massive amounts of damage. While it doesn’t scale as well as some other frames, it fires so incredibly fast that it doesn’t need to scale. Generally good for everything but excels in ESO and Arbitrations.

Mirage (Prime): A-

She’s kinda been the same overall but now she has more survival due to her rework. She’s still really good at buff your own damage but couldn’t find a spot on Tridolon teams because she can’t take damage. Overall, Mirage is great at Arbitrations and even ESO with certain weapons due to the AoE she puts on all weapons she wields.

Nekros (Prime): A

He has to be rated high and it may be bias but in a game where loot is the most important thing, Nekros makes more loot. Nekros is an essential frame for farming resources and such. He can also be a great tank. However, he’s not only a great tank, he can defend quite well as well. All of these factors make Nekros a very versatile frame overall.

Nezha: B+

Ever since his rework, Nezha has been a more than nice tank. He can take damage, has CC, and he has the speed. His damage kinda lacks but he doesn’t have to do much to get CC and he usually doesn’t need it since he’s so fast. Overall, he’s a good frame now.

Nidus: A

He’s not as good as Inaros and has a weak early. He gets really OP when he has stacks but that’s few and far between. However, he is a great healer and buff buffer like Equinox and he also has damage. He also has one of the strongest CCs in the game. Overall, Nidus is great for long survivals and stuff like Arbitrations. Although he’s quite slow with dealing with stuff like ESO.

Nova (Prime): S-

A frame that is just short of being able to do anything. She has buffs, she has nukes, she has some tanking potential, and she’s the fastest frame in the game (even beating Gauss). Nova is like best parts of every frame mashed into one. While she may be sorta lacking, she excels where there are a lot of enemies such as ESO or Arbitrations. 

Nyx (Prime): B

Nyx is in a weird spot. She’s incredibly tanky with an augment and has the utility and CC potential to do massive damage. However, that is usually not the case due to how chaotic she makes enemies. To be honest, she would be a lot better if she had a bit more control of her CC or if she made the AI smarter.

Oberon (Prime): A

He can strip armor, tank, heal, and deal significant damage. Yeah, I think Oberon is just fine where he is. He excels in just about everything but isn’t really suited towards one role. He can do Tridolons, Profit Taker, ESO, and Arbitrations but he doesn’t outshine the better frames at those roles.

Octavia: A

If you need to AFK a survival, Octavia is probably the best choice. She can deal loads of damage with Mallet and has buffs for Tridolons. However, just like other squishy buff frames, she not the best one to bring to a Tridolon. However, she does spread her buff to allies so she could be used. Just don’t expect her to survive often. She also has invisibility that lasts forever so she’s in a much better spot than Loki.

Revenant: A-

He’s almost good enough. He has his invincibility shield, a small heal, good CC and damage. However, the shield isn’t the best and his damaging ability isn’t sustainable for a long time. It falls off pretty hard at times due to the fact that he doesn’t deal well in large crowds. He’s almost good enough but lacks damage or survivability.

Rhino (Prime): A+

Rhino, the starter frame. The one that people see as the actual starter. He is tanky, he has buffs, he has CC and he’s easy to get. He has one of the strongest buffs in the game and is most ideal for Tridolons and Profit Taker. Also, he’s one of the first frames you should be getting as a new player. Overall versatile and useful during any part of the game.

Saryn (Prime): S+

She is the queen of ESO but kinda falls of in Arbitrations. She’ll make sure you never seen an enemy on the map. Saryn is good. She’s really good at her job. She is so overwhelmingly OP that she made every other frames useless.

Titania: B+

She only has 1 good ability, however, that one ability is so OP that her entire kit doesn’t matter. Razorwing is probably one of the most powerful abilities in the game because it does a lot of damage that Saryn doesn’t even compare. Sure, he damage falls off but it’s on so often that it will take forever for her to even start falling off. The only problem she has is the fact the rest of her abilities are completely useless and may even hinder your team.

Trinity (Prime): S-

The healer who will keep on healing, doesn’t need Adaptation to achieve tankiness and will give you energy. Oh yeah, on top of that, she can remove armor. Also, her Energy Vampire does a lot of finisher damage. Also, she can give you max overshields. Trinity is so overwhelmingly useful that she’s probably broken. I don’t know, Trinity is just the one that stands above the rest.

Valkyr (Prime): B+

As stated above, being tanky is really powerful. She is just that. She can take a lot of damage, deal a lot of damage, become invincible and heal herself, then proceed to deal even more damage. There isn’t anything particularly wrong about Valkyr’s place in the meta, she’s just overall good. Yeah, two of her abilities are kinda useless but they have niche uses that not many frames can also fulfill.

Vauban (Prime): C+

I get it, he has too much utility that he can’t utilize because of the meta. He’s still really good at defense but doesn’t compare to Frost. He’s the king of Interception but no one likes that mode. Vauban is kinda just weak due to popular opinion rather than his kit itself. Yeah, it can be more but right now, I think Loki is in more of a crisis than he is.

Volt (Prime): A+

Very useful in Tridolons because he has a shield. While squishy in nature, his shield is the thing that keeps him alive. His speed is also useful for running away and speed running and he can be quite tanky with Adaptation and Capacitance. Generally good overall but probably not that great of a starter.

Wisp: A

She is close to becoming one of my favorite frames. She has damage, she has CC, she can turn invisible, heal herself, and she just does a lot of things. Wisp is a frame that does a lot of things. That’s great. While she isn’t the best at anything in particular, she’s good at them decently. Overall, a very good frame due to the amount of things she can do.

Wukong (Prime): B+

Yes, he much more fun than he was before. Yes he was better than before. However, he’s still only good at the things he was good at before his rework. He’s no longer invincible in concept but I’ve only had to go down once throughout my entire experience with the new Wukong and that was only because his passive glitched. He can do damage now but isn’t as great as Saryn. However, he’s better than Excalibur because he can hit enemies from a far distance and mow down a room. The reason he’s so low is because of his abilities. His abilities that keep him alive take him and his clone out of battle too much. He can’t attack in Defy or Cloud Walker. This is a huge problem especially if he’s defending something or trying to mow down a room. While I enjoy the new Wukong, it takes him out too much.

Zephyr (Prime): A-

Zephyr is a frame that can do a lot of damage and has convenient CC at her disposal. She’s also survives very well and is very mobile. While a lot of the game doesn’t need more mobility, she excels at ESO and Arbitrations anyways because of the potential her powers bring.

That’s all folks. Feel free to leave your own opinions on this post or start your own. I kinda hope that DE does really look at how the meta has shifted and how it is kinda drawing the players away. It’s hard to see it slowly die away and I hope whatever they’re releasing next will help them change directions. 

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Volt (Prime): A

Volt should be SSS

 

Also, Gauss is a B as the main ability he was built for, his 1st ability, stop when collides with something, special door, which really ruin the fun. And all his other ability is so-so.

well, more testing is needed as mine is 0 forma, no umbra mod and still at lvl 26..

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Comments on frames i actually use with some semblance of frequency.  And Rhino, because the joke.

Ash (Prime): B+

Atlas: B-

Banshee (Prime): B

Baruuk: C+

Chroma (Prime): A-

Only two abilities worth using, but two vary good abilities worth using

Ember (Prime): D

Nerf me baby one more time

Equinox (Prime): A

Excalibur (Umbra) (Prime): B

Does a lot of things well, but is also overshadowed by a lot of other frames that does a lot more better

Frost (Prime): A-

Lots of good abilities, but the augments combined with lots of different builds requiring different, uh, builds prevents him from wearing the jack of many trades hat effectivly.  But freeze force update is worth a bump from B+++ to A-

Gara: A++

Garuda: B-

Gauss: A

Harrow: A

Hildryn: C++

As clunky as she is chonky, but does what she does well enough if you can get past it.

Hydroid (Prime): B

Inaros: A++

Ivara: A+

Khora: B+

Limbo (Prime): EX

Limbo main, not gonna pretend to be unbiased. OP listed him as A, so go with that.

Loki (Prime): C++

Fast, annoying and invisible. Hasn't aged well.

Mag (Prime): B-

Mesa (Prime): A+

Mirage (Prime): A--

Nekros (Prime): A-

Nezha: A

Nidus: A+

Nova (Prime): A

Nyx (Prime): C

Oberon (Prime): A

Octavia: A+++

Revenant: C++

Rhino (Prime): B

Opticor

Saryn (Prime): A+++

Titania: C++

Trinity (Prime): A

Valkyr (Prime): B++

Melee 3.0 is gona hit Valkitty like a brick wall

Vauban (Prime): D

Has aged even worse than Loki

Volt (Prime): A--

Still relevant. 

Wisp: A-

Wukong (Prime): A---

He hits things with a stick and doesn't die. That said, he doesn't kill things fast enough or provide any team utility to warrant putting him with the rest of the A lineup

Zephyr (Prime): B-

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Opinion on Tier lists ~ in the bin, right down the bottom under that moldy lettuce is where they belong.

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4 minutes ago, (NSW)Drake_Remorea said:

No one got the F? 

Not even a D?

Idk I'd throw Zephyr, or Ember, or Vauban, or Atlas, all of them get the D and F.

Atlas is not that bad i would give him at least a C+

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2 hours ago, (PS4)TertulSee said:

Valkyr (Prime): A-

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)TertulSee said:

Wukong (Prime): B+

With regards to what the game considers content, I can't see Valkyr beating Wukong in anything.

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13 minutes ago, (NSW)Drake_Remorea said:

No one got the F? 

Not even a D?

Idk I'd throw Zephyr, or Ember, or Vauban, or Atlas, all of them get the D and F.

You do not want to see a D or F tier frame on this list. Frames that are D tier are in dire need of rework and frames in F tier are not usable. I wouldn't say those frames meet up with the dire need of a rework. Yes, they need a rework, but they could still be used for their purposes.

Atlas is actually really good. I'm not sure if you've used him but he's not as bad as everyone say he is (because everyone is kinda outdated). The bulk of Atlas reviews online was before the implementation of Adaptation and those are all outdated. Atlas is in a more than powerful spot and doesn't need any real buffs. He's good enough at doing damage, he has a ton of survivability, and he has a ton of utility. Yeah, it's not going to wipe the map on ESO, he can sustain just about everything.

Zephyr is fine where she is too. I don't think she's that bad because she does have a ton of damage and survivability. In Zephyr's case, she can indeed wipe an ESO map. It's a bit more chaotic than Saryn but she can.

Ember is really low already but she's viable at speed running low level missions. Also, she can buff damage with her augments making her have some redeeming value.

Vauban is only bad to people who never used him.

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6 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

With regards to what the game considers content, I can't see Valkyr beating Wukong in anything.

I don't really mean to judge but Valkyr is slightly better due to the fact that she's always doing damage even if she's healing. Wukong has to step out of battle and then back in to become tanky enough to compete with Valkyr's base armor and he also has to step out to heal as well. I feel Valkyr is in a much better state than Wukong is right now even though she doesn't have the massive damage. She's more consistently doing damage than Wukong. I don't want to argue with the Legendary @DeMonkey but I think it may be because of bias. I'm trying to get as unbiased of a rating as possible.

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I'd personally give Nidus an S- at least.

He's self sustaining also has some nice Cc and most importantly he can take a hit while also being able to heal.

Hildryn I would say is an A rank frame. 

She boosts shields, gives shield gating but she's also good at surviving and her 2nd scales with the enemies. She has decent CC as well.

Btw Revenant I would put into God tier. I mean let's face it, he's perfection it self in warframe form. Anything other frames can do he does it much better. And that is not ironic that's a straight up fact.

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When I saw Nyx getting a better rating than Loki, and Vauban get the exact same rating, I just went nah bro... I would still easily rank Loki at a B+. Yeah, wukong has a great invis now, but let's not forget that you need to step out of it to hack consoles and sometimes the sheer speed of it can get you in trouble. Wisp's invis is only when in air, so that causes problems in a lot of cases too. Ivara's invis is much slower and destroying lasers is so easy that her augment doesn't really matter. His whole kit is quite good too, not just the disarm. People who only give credit to disarm clearly didn't play him enough. As to no damage abilities, neither does Nyx, and imo Hildryn is trash tier compared to Loki. Well, that's just my rant. I'm giving him a B+ because it is true that he fell from the godspot, but he is far from useless.

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3 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

I'd personally give Nidus an S- at least.

He's self sustaining also has some nice Cc and most importantly he can take a hit while also being able to heal.

Hildryn I would say is an A rank frame. 

She boosts shields, gives shield gating but she's also good at surviving and her 2nd scales with the enemies. She has decent CC as well.

Btw Revenant I would put into God tier. I mean let's face it, he's perfection it self in warframe form. Anything other frames can do he does it much better. And that is not ironic that's a straight up fact.

Well, Nidus has major problems. I do believe he can achieve S tier. However, Nidus isn't OP. Only frames that are legitimately needing a nerf goes on S tier. S- if they don't really need a nerf. Unless you think Nidus needs a nerf, I wouldn't suggest putting him as S tier.

Hildryn is a frame I don't like. It's my opinion after all. She has a lot of problems that keeps her from A tier. That's all I'm gonna say.

Revenant is nowhere near god tier. If he gets overwhelmed, he goes down quick. Before you say it, no, not every frame gets as easily overwhelmed as Revenant. Revenant is good but not without a ton of problems.

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3 hours ago, (PS4)TertulSee said:

Revenant is nowhere near god tier. If he gets overwhelmed, he goes down quick. Before you say it, no, not every frame gets as easily overwhelmed as Revenant. Revenant is good but not without a ton of problems.

Duuuude. Revenant just moves one leg and wipes the map clean of enemies.

Mesa got nothing on him bro. He can also survive anything. A meteor cannot hurt him. 

He's like the very best. I don't even know why he didn't get a nerf. But then again. How do you nerf a god?

Anyways i get It's your opinion but that's why i said "personallly" I would do that.

Tho now that I know what S rank means to you that puts the whole thing into a completely different perspective.

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8 minutes ago, DemoniesGaming said:

When I saw Nyx getting a better rating than Loki, and Vauban get the exact same rating, I just went nah bro... I would still easily rank Loki at a B+. Yeah, wukong has a great invis now, but let's not forget that you need to step out of it to hack consoles and sometimes the sheer speed of it can get you in trouble. Wisp's invis is only when in air, so that causes problems in a lot of cases too. Ivara's invis is much slower and destroying lasers is so easy that her augment doesn't really matter. His whole kit is quite good too, not just the disarm. People who only give credit to disarm clearly didn't play him enough. As to no damage abilities, neither does Nyx, and imo Hildryn is trash tier compared to Loki. Well, that's just my rant. I'm giving him a B+ because it is true that he fell from the godspot, but he is far from useless.

He's good but only on content no one plays anymore. Yeah, he could be good in Sorties but so can Vauban. He's on the same level as Vauban for the sheer fact that he's bee outdated. I think he's close to needing a rework. That's my opinion. What does Loki have that couldn't be beat by other frames? He's no longer the fastest, his Invisibility does only invisibility, he's more annoying to use for spies because he has to place his decoy in the right spot. I would say, Wisp has Loki beat in the spy department now. The only thing keeping Loki alive is his Radial Disarm. His Decoy is mostly useless except in very niche scenarios and his switch teleport is quite useless in general now. He only has a utility kit just like Vauban. If Loki is so good, than Vauban is good because they basically serve the same purpose.

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6 minutes ago, (PS4)TertulSee said:

I don't really mean to judge but Valkyr is slightly better due to the fact that she's always doing damage even if she's healing. Wukong has to step out of battle and then back in to become tanky enough to compete with Valkyr's base armor and he also has to step out to heal as well. I feel Valkyr is in a much better state than Wukong is right now even though she doesn't have the massive damage. She's more consistently doing damage than Wukong. I don't want to argue with the Legendary @DeMonkey but I think it may be because of bias. I'm trying to get as unbiased of a rating as possible.

That's fair, I'll do my best to present a reasoned argument, and if you feel it's still due to bias then I'll take that.

Point 1) With regards to having to step out of combat for an armour boost, that's certainly valid. However both Warcry and Defy have their pro's and cons.

Warcry has a long cast time, based on a quick video it appears to be about 2 seconds long. You can't move during those 2 seconds and you can be damaged. This cast has to be refreshed, at base, every 15 seconds.

Defy has a maximum cast time, but can be cancelled earlier (at higher levels you'll max out the buff very quickly). You can move during it's cast time, you cannot be damaged. This has to be refreshed, at base, every 25 seconds. Effectively, Warcry has to be cast 66.6% more often, meaning you're spending more time casting your armour buff than Wukong is.

Point 2) With regards to armour competition, if each frame has a maxed Umbral build (certainly not an unreasonable choice) then the relevant stats will be as follows.

Valkyr Prime:

910 health

2,047 armour before Warcry.

3,979 armour after Warcry (I think, blame the wiki if this is wrong), or 93% DR.

That gives her an ehp of 13,000 health.

Wukong Prime:

1,455 health

804.4 armour before Defy

2,304.4 armour after Defy, or 88.4% DR.

That gives him an ehp of 12,543.

Not too far off in the slightest. Granted of course Valkyr can pump her power strength up some more for some extra armour, but it won't be especially game changing imo.

Point 3) With regards to the consistency with which one outputs damage, I do feel that Wukong has Valkyr edged. Whilst Valkyr is Warcry'd and using a proper melee weapon, she can certainly output reliable damage alongside Wukong and his staff, but the moment Valkyr goes in for a heal with her claws she loses that. All reliable damage goes out the window in favour of only being able to hit enemies at claw range or leaping at individual targets, meanwhile Wukong is still cleaving groups of enemies with the ability to heal whilst gap-closing alongside a clone that acts and damages enemies independently of Wukong.

I very much disagree with Wukong "stepping out" to heal, although that certainly does happen, and prefer to think of it as... "stepping very quickly towards the nearest enemy whilst healing". Lets be honest, we aren't always surrounded, there are regularly moments of downtime where you're looking for the next victim enemy to charge at.

Tried to be as objective as possible, hope you can see that.

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2 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Duuuude. Revenant just moves one leg and wipes the map clean of enemies.

Mesa got nothing on him bro. He can also survive anything. A meteor cannot hurt him. 

He's like the very best. I don't even know why he didn't get a nerf. But then again. How do you nerf a god?

Anyways i get It's your opinion but that's why i said "personallly" I would do that.

Tho now that I know what S rank means to you that puts the whole thong into a completely different perspective.

Well, this is general discussions. I know he has complete invulnerability when he has his shield but even the slightest touch brings that shield down by one. His damage also falls off quite significantly at higher levels especially toward Corpus. When you have like 10 enemies firing at you at once with rapid fire weapons, his shield goes down in a second. He's kinda meh. He doesn't really do that much unless you're playing on low enemy density maps.

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1 minute ago, (PS4)TertulSee said:

When you have like 10 enemies firing at you at once

If that happens whilst you're playing Revenant, you did something wrong.

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)TertulSee said:

Well, this is general discussions. I know he has complete invulnerability when he has his shield but even the slightest touch brings that shield down by one. His damage also falls off quite significantly at higher levels especially toward Corpus. When you have like 10 enemies firing at you at once with rapid fire weapons, his shield goes down in a second. He's kinda meh. He doesn't really do that much unless you're playing on low enemy density maps.

Depends on play style. I'm always outside of the enemy's sight. And let thralls to distract the enemies. Main problem with him is that he's slow like a snail. Other than that he can still survive anything. I played him against every faction and on every lvl but nothing could strip that ability down. He's a swiss army knife in this game. Imo anyways. 

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3 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

That's fair, I'll do my best to present a reasoned argument, and if you feel it's still due to bias then I'll take that.

Point 1) With regards to having to step out of combat for an armour boost, that's certainly valid. However both Warcry and Defy have their pro's and cons.

Warcry has a long cast time, based on a quick video it appears to be about 2 seconds long. You can't move during those 2 seconds and you can be damaged. This cast has to be refreshed, at base, every 15 seconds.

Defy has a maximum cast time, but can be cancelled earlier (at higher levels you'll max out the buff very quickly). You can move during it's cast time, you cannot be damaged. This has to be refreshed, at base, every 25 seconds. Effectively, Warcry has to be cast 66.6% more often, meaning you're spending more time casting your armour buff than Wukong is.

Point 2) With regards to armour competition, if each frame has a maxed Umbral build (certainly not an unreasonable choice) then the relevant stats will be as follows.

Valkyr Prime:

910 health

2,047 armour before Warcry.

3,979 armour after Warcry (I think, blame the wiki if this is wrong), or 93% DR.

That gives her an ehp of 13,000 health.

Wukong Prime:

1,455 health

804.4 armour before Defy

2,304.4 armour after Defy, or 88.4% DR.

That gives him an ehp of 12,543.

Not too far off in the slightest. Granted of course Valkyr can pump her power strength up some more for some extra armour, but it won't be especially game changing imo.

Point 3) With regards to the consistency with which one outputs damage, I do feel that Wukong has Valkyr edged. Whilst Valkyr is Warcry'd and using a proper melee weapon, she can certainly output reliable damage alongside Wukong and his staff, but the moment Valkyr goes in for a heal with her claws she loses that. All reliable damage goes out the window in favour of only being able to hit enemies at claw range or leaping at individual targets, meanwhile Wukong is still cleaving groups of enemies with the ability to heal whilst gap-closing alongside a clone that acts and damages enemies independently of Wukong.

I very much disagree with Wukong "stepping out" to heal, although that certainly does happen, and prefer to think of it as... "stepping very quickly towards the nearest enemy whilst healing". Lets be honest, we aren't always surrounded, there are regularly moments of downtime where you're looking for the next victim enemy to charge at.

Tried to be as objective as possible, hope you can see that.

Reasonable, but I think Wukong won't really be as favorable until Melee 3.0 comes out. Hopefully Hysteria would better than it is now. However, I am not that moved on your stance. Yes, Wukong has better damage. However, I feel that Valkyr can still do sufficient damage while Hysteria is active. Warcry also has the benefit of buffing melee weapon speed and slowing enemies around you. Wukong does have problems that I do not like overall because it's my opinion. He lacks any form of duration based CC for example. It may be my own distaste for Wukong but I do like the new Wukong. I just feel he doesn't have as much flexibility as Valkyr.

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)TertulSee said:

Reasonable, but I think Wukong won't really be as favorable until Melee 3.0 comes out. Hopefully Hysteria would better than it is now. However, I am not that moved on your stance. Yes, Wukong has better damage. However, I feel that Valkyr can still do sufficient damage while Hysteria is active. Warcry also has the benefit of buffing melee weapon speed and slowing enemies around you. Wukong does have problems that I do not like overall because it's my opinion. He lacks any form of duration based CC for example. It may be my own distaste for Wukong but I do like the new Wukong. I just feel he doesn't have as much flexibility as Valkyr.

May I suggest then that it is your own bias that is the potential problem here?

Yes, Warcry buffs melee speed, Defy does a ton of damage. Pros and cons.

Valkyr can absolutely do sufficient damage whilst Hysteria is active, certainly, but to a single enemy at a time. That's a massive loss in overall effective damage from using a long range melee than can hit 2-3 enemies at a time.

If we're being realistic, Valkyr also lacks duration based CC. Neither Warcry nor Paralysis are any more effective at CC than Wukong's Cloudwalker stun, nor the knockdowns from his stomps. Enemies slowed by Warcry are immediately killed afterwards, enemies affected by Paralysis are... just kidding, no one uses Paralysis.

Valkyr is an outdated frame and I really implore you to look inwards for bias as opposed to outwards, because Wukong is now one of the most flexible frames in the game. I'm sorry that you don't think he is.

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