Change Concentrated Arrow as Exilus?

[SpringRocker]

Every so often I go back and try to make a setup that uses Concentrated Arrow. The biggest issue is that I'm often 1 slot away from putting together something that "feels" right and falls into place. I like the idea of the mod, but it seems like more of a headache than anything else so I toss whatever build after 3 or 4 runs.

I primarily use Ivara but never got comfortable putting in Concentrated Arrow.

The biggest issue is that it's weird to try to fit in:
- The weapon change is a side-grade (yes, it's cool and AOE versus semi-wide angle. However it takes a non-exilus mod slot and requires headshots to use it).
- Takes a slot off a build that could be used for something else more useful.
- If you're putting on Concentrated Arrow you might as well build around it, because you're already committed (sounds kind of silly compared to normal builds, but it isn't really a mod for a "normal build").

Many times I'm 1 frame slot off from something that holds up or that plays as well as other Ivara build. Switching it to an exilus slot makes sense (to me) and seems like something to consider and I think changing it to be an exilus mod would be a good move/buff.

Edited September 14, 2019 by SpringRocker

[K4RN4]

But Exilus is for movement mods.

[Alcatraz]

Basically Exilus should be augment friendly. I asked one time for a new mod slot for augments, and I think it was ignored. Not long later, Exilus slot came along. What does it do? Movement mods only. So naturally we just put in drift mods or handspring/rush and never use augments in our builds unless we first build the entire thing, around that augment.

Maybe I'm the only player that almost NEVER uses augments because they have no place when you gotta have the "perfect" build,  or ruin some part of it.

Concentrated Arrow sadly doesn't fit the criteria of "movement" so I don't think it will ever be allowed in the Exilus slot. Mesa's Waltz was, because it changed movement and nothing more.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Alcatraz

[taiiat]

idk i fit the Augment and some Survivability Mods without any issues.

i'll still rather see a dedicated Augment Slot so that some of the really bad Augments don't have to compete for Stats (because they will always lose).

[SpringRocker]

16 minutes ago, K4RN4 said:

But Exilus is for movement mods.

Would make sense, but there are exilus mods for non-movment frame abilities, radar, unlock, and resistance (not talking about aviator; but including aviator).

It's a utility slot.

Edited September 14, 2019 by SpringRocker

[K4RN4]

14 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

there are exilus mods for non-movment frame abilities

Any examples for that?

What I meant was it's for movement augments, and as far as I know all augments that can use the exilus slot are movement related.

[Alcatraz]

It's not entirely movement mods only. Master Thief has nothing to do with movement, nor does Intruder, and things like Coaction Drift. Peculiar aren't movement defined, and there's Thief's Wit, and Enemy Sense (loot and enemy radar mods) that go in the Slot, but aren't movement defined.

Warm coat is debatable.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Alcatraz

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 hour ago, SpringRocker said:

The biggest issue is that it's weird to try to fit in:
- The weapon change is a side-grade (yes, it's cool and AOE versus semi-wide angle. However it takes a non-exilus mod slot and requires headshots to use it).
- Takes a slot off a build that could be used for something else more useful.
- If you're putting on Concentrated Arrow you might as well build around it, because you're already committed (sounds kind of silly compared to normal builds, but it isn't really a mod for a "normal build").

The biggest issue is the augment itself. As generally happens with anything related to Ivara's kit, it's got an un-Warframe-like caveat that, in this case, makes it actively hamstring your capability if not making use of its (limited) function.

It's a 'sidegrade' if you build around it specifically and hit heads constantly. Any time you can't or don't hit heads, it's a 6/7ths damage nerf to your Artemis bow.

Because Concentrated Arrow doesn't.. concentrate the arrows into a single shot with the sum total of damage. It just gives you one of the natural 7 arrows, with that one arrow's worth of damage, then adds a headshot bomb effect onto that pitiful projectile.

 

Ivara needs overhauling to get rid of all these weird limitations she has that other Warframes don't have in any sort of equivalence. Base abilities and augments, the whole lot.

Edited September 14, 2019 by TheLexiConArtist

[trst]

The only augments that are Exilus compatible are the mobility only ones.

[Orblit]

Agree that augments need a slot of their own, or just fit into exilus.

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

It's a 'sidegrade' if you build around it specifically and hit heads constantly. Any time you can't or don't hit heads, it's a 6/7ths damage nerf to your Artemis bow.

Because Concentrated Arrow doesn't.. concentrate the arrows into a single shot with the sum total of damage. It just gives you one of the natural 7 arrows, with that one arrow's worth of damage, then adds a headshot bomb effect onto that pitiful projectile.

This is something I said multiple times when the augment came out.  But every one was like it's an improvement, while completely not realizing that it's actually a huge nerf.  The augment makes it so that you can't use it on Bosses or any other enemy that requires a weak spot that isn't the head. Then it requires a massive amount of power range just to make it worth the energy being used.  

I built a second Ivara just so I could make a build just for Concentrated Arrow without messing up my main build. I did this just so I could have a fair assessment of this augment.  If you normally use multishot on Artemis, you would have 14 arrows.  CA augment only does 1/14th of normal artemis build should you not get a headshot.  Because of the headshot requirement, you will end up wasting energy if you're with a group because they will more than likely kill the target you're aiming at.  If you're solo, then the augment isn't really needed at all.  It's only real value IMO is just having weird fun.  

I still recommend that the augment be changed so that it really does concentrate the arrows.  Then multishot will mean something while the augment is equipped.  

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

If anything “Infiltrate” should be an Exilus mod. Not “Concentrated Arrow” where Ivara is concerned.

[Zekkii]

Concentrated Arrow just makes it so that you need to try to build too many stats at once, but also have a slot for the augment itself.  You need high efficiency and strength for Artemis Bow, normal duration for Prowl, and high range for the actual explosion.  No matter what you'll have to sacrifice survivability, damage, range, energy efficiency, or more likely a mix of some of the aforementioned stats.

So realistically, unless you're deeply invested in making some small explosions, it's better to build for something other than Range and Concentrated Arrow.  But overall it's still not the worst augment, you can have fun with it at least.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Zekkii

[EmberStar]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

 It's only real value IMO is just having weird fun. 

I do have this equipped most of the time on both copies of Ivara (I built duplicates to play with Umbral mods due to the incredibly high capacity requirements, and that's without actually maxing out any of the Umbra mods.  😞  )  But then, I use Ivara exclusively solo.  So I'm free to take as long as I want to use attract arrow, sleep arrow, and then find the perfect target in a group to headshot and kill them all.  I also don't ever attempt "Endless Mot" or anything, so I'm only ever using it against generic Star Chart level enemies, or at most in a spy Sortie.  And given the other odd limitations Sorties usually impose, I'm not usually focused on actually killing anything in a spy Sortie.

But in the Sedna exterminate mission, a headshot while cloaked against sleeping targets will instantly kill anything except possibly a lucky Grineer Bombard.  Then again I don't think I built my Artemis bow with Multishot, so the weirdness described in one of the above posts means I'm probably actually doing more damage than an "optimal" Ivara build.  I seem to have plenty of room for Primed Continuity and Primed Flow, but I also don't attempt to use Corrupted Mods.  I only have ONE Warframe that uses any Corrupted Mods, and that's a "Tank Nova" who uses one to cap out the duration bonus on her first power for the damage reduction, and to bring the range as low as possible so the motes don't attack everything in sight.  This version would be "more hated than Limbo" if I ever teamed with her, because apparently the only Nova is speed Nova.  😞 

So... not actually contradicting you in any way, I guess.  Since I only use Ivara at all in "just for fun" situations.

[bibmobello]

You are right, i thought the same, concentrated arrow should be an exilus or a weapon mod. And no you can't have efficiency, strength and range at the same time to use concentrated arrow.. without dying. Anyway this mod is thought to be used with navigator to deal devastating amount of damage but there are better weapons for that.

Edited September 15, 2019 by bibmobello

[bibmobello]

4 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The biggest issue is the augment itself. As generally happens with anything related to Ivara's kit, it's got an un-Warframe-like caveat that, in this case, makes it actively hamstring your capability if not making use of its (limited) function.

It's a 'sidegrade' if you build around it specifically and hit heads constantly. Any time you can't or don't hit heads, it's a 6/7ths damage nerf to your Artemis bow.

Because Concentrated Arrow doesn't.. concentrate the arrows into a single shot with the sum total of damage. It just gives you one of the natural 7 arrows, with that one arrow's worth of damage, then adds a headshot bomb effect onto that pitiful projectile.

 

Ivara needs overhauling to get rid of all these weird limitations she has that other Warframes don't have in any sort of equivalence. Base abilities and augments, the whole lot.

It's add even a flat +50% crit chance and piercing navigator can add other +50%flat crit chance + empower quiver you will deal huge amount of damage but there are better and more efficient weapons for that. The problem is impossible to use all the 3 augmented mods at the same time... They should change the artemis bow to give the option to change from normal to concentrated with the alt fire.

Edited September 15, 2019 by bibmobello

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, bibmobello said:

And no you can't have efficiency, strength and range at the same time to use concentrated arrow.. without dying.

Actually you can.  I was able to do it with my 3rd Ivara.  But that was only because I specifically made a new frame just to do it. One just has to remember that Ivara doesn't really need survivability mods if you stay in Prowl.  

Overextended was needed just to get the range at a level where the blast radius was acceptable for my liking.  This then caused the need to counter the negative effects of that corrupted mod.  Its very possible to have efficiency, strength and range at the same time on Ivara.  You just have to remember that she really doesn't need survival mods that most put on other frames as she's not suppose to take any damage at all. 

This build works and it works well if Concentrated Arrow is your goal.  I'm fairly sure that there are other ways to achieve the same goal.  Honestly, I haven't invested more time into really checking those possibilities.

The really interesting or hard part came when modding for Artemis Bow to make better use of Concentrated Arrow.  This was due to all 3 of my Ivaras all sharing the same single Artemis Bow.  This one is still a work in progress.  

Edit:  I do agree that maybe a change to make Concentrated Arrow a toggle on alt fire with the augment could be a better choice.  

edit2:  I posted all this from my experiment just as an example of what's possible and hopefully to help others who might be interested in this type of thing.  😀

Edited September 15, 2019 by DatDarkOne

[ShortCat]

9 hours ago, taiiat said:

i'll still rather see a dedicated Augment Slot so that some of the really bad Augments don't have to compete for Stats (because they will always lose).

Similar argumentation was circulating during Exilus introduction. At that time I pointed out, that even with a dedicated slot, nobody will use bad mods - so it happened and even with Exilus nobody is using Warm Coat. It is not a slot problem, it is a mod problem. Mods themselves should be imroved. Otherwise you just create several mod pools with clearly defined favourites.

8 hours ago, Orblit said:

Agree that augments need a slot of their own, or just fit into exilus.

The moment you allow all Augments into Exilus, you kill regular Exilus mods.

 

5 hours ago, Zekkii said:

Concentrated Arrow just makes it so that you need to try to build too many stats at once, but also have a slot for the augment itself.  You need high efficiency and strength for Artemis Bow, normal duration for Prowl, and high range for the actual explosion.  No matter what you'll have to sacrifice survivability, damage, range, energy efficiency, or more likely a mix of some of the aforementioned stats.

I am not Ivara main, but from my understanding, people usually do not build her for PS. In general, Artemis builds require broader stat investments than regular perma invis builds. This is not an Ivara exclusive problem. If you want to be more successfull in different fields, you have to give up on specializations.

[Zekkii]

12 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

I am not Ivara main, but from my understanding, people usually do not build her for PS. In general, Artemis builds require broader stat investments than regular perma invis builds. This is not an Ivara exclusive problem. If you want to be more successfull in different fields, you have to give up on specializations.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't build for Strength on normal Artemis Bow builds.  It not only increases the damage of Artemis Bow, but also the headshot multiplier of Prowl, the damage multiplier of navigator, the damage bonus of Empowered Quiver augment, and the speed boost of her Infiltrate Augment.  Not only that, but it's particularly important in Concentrated Arrow builds since you only fire a single arrow instead of the usual seven, and every shot you aim should be getting the headshot bonus for Prowl.

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Similar argumentation was circulating during Exilus introduction. At that time I pointed out, that even with a dedicated slot, nobody will use bad mods - so it happened and even with Exilus nobody is using Warm Coat. It is not a slot problem, it is a mod problem. Mods themselves should be imroved. Otherwise you just create several mod pools with clearly defined favourites.

 

I am not Ivara main, but from my understanding, people usually do not build her for PS. In general, Artemis builds require broader stat investments than regular perma invis builds. This is not an Ivara exclusive problem. If you want to be more successfull in different fields, you have to give up on specializations.

oh i certainly would prefer Augments to just all be compelling as targeting to be 'alternative choices' but my confidence in that happening is basically zero thesedays.
if Warframes as they come out of the box have trouble being more than AFK turrets or being useful outside of having a specific use order forced to pretend like some stuff has "synergy", then what hope do the Augments that were never useful have. not much.

 

and Concentrated Arrow requires even broader investment considerations. 
and yet, one can still easily have positive Duration, high/max Efficiency, and close to or greater than 200% both Strength and Range.
sounds like everything fits just fine to me.

it's Loadouts that are centralizing around Infiltrate that get really strange and complicated, tbh. since you don't just want good Strength there, you want.... all of it. but still lots of Duration/Efficiency and Range is still useful.

Edited September 15, 2019 by taiiat

[TheLexiConArtist]

10 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is something I said multiple times when the augment came out.  But every one was like it's an improvement, while completely not realizing that it's actually a huge nerf.  The augment makes it so that you can't use it on Bosses or any other enemy that requires a weak spot that isn't the head. Then it requires a massive amount of power range just to make it worth the energy being used.  

I built a second Ivara just so I could make a build just for Concentrated Arrow without messing up my main build. I did this just so I could have a fair assessment of this augment.  If you normally use multishot on Artemis, you would have 14 arrows.  CA augment only does 1/14th of normal artemis build should you not get a headshot.  Because of the headshot requirement, you will end up wasting energy if you're with a group because they will more than likely kill the target you're aiming at.  If you're solo, then the augment isn't really needed at all.  It's only real value IMO is just having weird fun.  

I still recommend that the augment be changed so that it really does concentrate the arrows.  Then multishot will mean something while the augment is equipped.  

4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

The really interesting or hard part came when modding for Artemis Bow to make better use of Concentrated Arrow.  This was due to all 3 of my Ivaras all sharing the same single Artemis Bow.  This one is still a work in progress.  

Spoiler

 

That screenshot - seeing an Eidolon hunter loadout for the bow - pleases me. When Plains dropped I took Ivara out for my first hunts, solo, with a beefed up Bow (albeit through primary mods at the time) to tackle the synovias. Worked pretty well. Kept the Prominence sigil on her in memory.

The trouble is that projectile multishot gets weird with certain crits and buffs, spreading out multipliers to a far lesser effect, and the bigger Eidolons are tougher to get up close land a full spread in the right spots.
^{(You might notice when using standard A-Bow that crits and non-crits actually hit the same per individual shot and apparently inconsistent between shots; the number of crit rolls is determined on firing and the net damage is then spread evenly to each projectile.)}

Concentrated Arrow, if it did what the name suggested, would not only solve that problem entirely by combining the full spread into a single projectile, but it would also positively synergise with Navigator's multiplier and make an impressively potent build for that purpose instead of being the same regardless of the augment - you only get to control and therefore multiply a single arrow, a fraction of the total output.

Full 7-18* Artemis spread condensed into one shot, multiplied by up to 15x-16x on Navigator? That's spicy. But we can't, because.. Ivara problems.

_{* Vigilante Armaments in addition to Split Chamber}

I'm aware we have the Navi-Castanas Eidolon hunter build, but that's just as oddball, honestly. It would be amusing to see what ludicrous damage would come from combining the crit damage buff there in this hypothetical as well.

57 minutes ago, taiiat said:

it's Loadouts that are centralizing around Infiltrate that get really strange and complicated, tbh. since you don't just want good Strength there, you want.... all of it. but still lots of Duration/Efficiency and Range is still useful.

Build around Infiltrate? That mod is a catastrophic waste of design space, much less something to actively build around.

Ivara shouldn't be painfully crippled in Prowl, no other stealth frames suffer that (plus all the other Prowl caveats), so the movement speed factor is irrelevant - should be baked back into the baseline.

Ignoring lasers is basically irrelevant to anyone who actually farmed Ivara naturally, especially if she could actually move normally while in Prowl. It wouldn't save enough time over just going around them same as the players were doing before they got her (unless Limbo).

Infiltrate should be scrapped for something that actually adds something productive, not just easing arbitrary limitations.

Edited September 15, 2019 by TheLexiConArtist

[bibmobello]

2 hours ago, Zekkii said:

I'm not sure why you wouldn't build for Strength on normal Artemis Bow builds.  It not only increases the damage of Artemis Bow, but also the headshot multiplier of Prowl, the damage multiplier of navigator, the damage bonus of Empowered Quiver augment, and the speed boost of her Infiltrate Augment.  Not only that, but it's particularly important in Concentrated Arrow builds since you only fire a single arrow instead of the usual seven, and every shot you aim should be getting the headshot bonus for Prowl.

You don't build for build strength for survivals or other long missions because you will run out of energy immediately and you will die every seconds, for Eidolon and some assassination i bring the +300 strength build and some Mesa don't understand how the bosses died till he see the stats...

I use ivara for everything and the main damage comes from navigator, some people don't understand it's a multiplicative damage(after every other bonus damage added) like the combo multiplier not like the  rhino or chroma buff and with a efficiency build you will have +10 X, you can have criticals on weapons with 0 crit chance and 0  crit damage, it would be fun to have some space to use 3 augmented mods but you will lose too much strength or range...Probably You could clear a map faster than saryn or Equinox...

Edited September 15, 2019 by bibmobello

[DatDarkOne]

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

it's Loadouts that are centralizing around Infiltrate that get really strange and complicated, tbh. since you don't just want good Strength there, you want.... all of it. but still lots of Duration/Efficiency and Range is still useful.

 

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Build around Infiltrate? That mod is a catastrophic waste of design space, much less something to actively build around.

Hehe, interestingly enough my main Tenchu Assassin Ivara build is built around Infiltrate.  😀 It works because I found out a very long time ago that I can get away with only having 95% duration as long as my efficiency is max or very close to it.  It's a build I use for everything except the open world maps.  My second Ivara is just for those.  

[ShortCat]

5 hours ago, Zekkii said:

I'm not sure why you wouldn't build for Strength on normal Artemis Bow builds.

I didn't say you should not build for PS for Artemis Bow builds. I said people usually discard high PS and Artemis in favor of cheaper invisibility. At least I hardly see an Ivara using her exsalted bow.
My point was, that Frames can require broad stat destribution due to their kits. As such, you either specialize; or spread stats in favor of an extensive tool kit.

 

4 hours ago, taiiat said:

oh i certainly would prefer Augments to just all be compelling as targeting to be 'alternative choices' but my confidence in that happening is basically zero thesedays.
if Warframes as they come out of the box have trouble being more than AFK turrets or being useful outside of having a specific use order forced to pretend like some stuff has "synergy", then what hope do the Augments that were never useful have. not much.

Fair and understandable points. However, I would still try to switch the mood in favor of general fixes, not mere band-aids. I mean, just going from "We need Augment slots" to "Revisit Augments" threads would be relevant enough.

Edited September 15, 2019 by ShortCat

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, ShortCat said:

I said people usually discard high PS and Artemis in favor of cheaper invisibility.

This is only because people seem to think Prowl can go over the Efficiency limit.  It can't.  Once you have max efficiency, you have the lowest drain possible on Prowl.  this is with a Duration of just 100%.  So having max efficiency and then having high duration just for Prowl is just wasting stat points.  Drain will never go lower than .25.  Once you have a drain of .25, then more duration is only effecting Cloak, Sleep Arrows, and Prowl steal time.  The latter I never really depended on for long survivals anyway as keeping your kill rate up with increase energy Orb drops with the same energy per time ratio.  Having Vacuum to suck up orbs as a distance makes this even easier. 

 

12 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

spread stats in favor of an extensive tool kit.

This is my method of building frames.  The only exception being Speed Nova.  Honestly I've never really understand the idea of min/maxing for just one ability on a frame.  then again that could be because I approach the game with a solo player mindset.