Founders scowling in disgust at Update 26

[auxy]

Melee changes: Overall good. Most stances feel much better to use and melee weapons don't require gimmick builds (BR/CO) to work on starmap-level content.
                           The nerf of melee "power" at post-endgame/"endurance" levels doesn't matter to me because I don't engage in that tomfoolery.
                           Special mention to the animators for patching up and re-animating some moves that looked jank before and now look great.

Ember rework: Fantastic. The best rework to date. She feels even better than she ever has, and I was an Ember main in the early days of the game.

Vauban rework: Good, but not excellent. Vauban's still a squishy pancake when anything real tough rolls around.
                            Unfortunately, since most tough enemies are immune to CC, he's just always going to be kind of binary as long as that remains his only real defense.

Grendel: Can't really comment on him effectively as his visual design makes me so disinterested I level'd-and-locker'd him.

Kuva Lich system: A literal game-ruining atrocity. I'll let the Angry Video Game Nerd express my thoughts for me on this system:

Seriously, I don't even know where to begin with this. There are so many problems with this system.

• RNG-based lich acquisition that discourages co-op play
  This is a running theme throughout this whole system, where it's focused on one player in a multiplayer game. You should have come up with a better way to make liches.
• RNG-based requiem mod acquisition 
  This is not so bad on its own, but making the requiem mods silver drops is pretty obnoxious. If you were gonna do this, weapon exilus should have been a bronze, and the gold should have been a LOT of Kuva, like 10,000 or something. Weapon exilus adapters aren't that valuable considering you can buy them with syndicate standing. The relic drop tables weren't well-thought-out.
• RNG-based kuva lich properties 
  This is the real crime of this system. What weapon they use, the percent value of their elemental bonus, their powers, any quirks -- it's all too random. ALL of this should have been player-influence-able if not outright player-determined.
• RNG-based kuva lich system progression 
  Also quite bad. How many thralls will spawn per mission? Will your lich appear? Will you get to kill them if they do? Who knows!
• Insanely tanky liches at high rank 
  I've been playing this game nigh-on seven years. I have top-end gear and top-end builds. It can still take me minutes to knock off a third of one of these liches' health bars by myself, if I'm unlucky to have it spawn while nobody else is around. It's not challenging, it's just tedious.
• Kuva weapons generally being sidegrades or worse 
  Why did you do this? Nevermind that I'm one of very few players who actually uses the Ogris, the Tonkor, or the Drakgoon (three of my favorite guns) -- nobody wants an Ogris that fires faster from a smaller magazine for drastically less damage per shot! Nobody wants a crit-focused Drakgoon that does half the damage -- shotgun crit mods are horrible! And what the hell is with that Kuva Kohm?
• Weirdly-timed and utterly insane Riven disposition system changes
  The kuva weapons (for the most part, that Kuva Kraken is pretty dope) aren't better than the regular versions, so why would they get less effect from riven mods? And you say you're extending this system to all weapons? What the hell are you even doing? This is complete madness.
• Kuva weapons requiring 5 forma each to fully master (!!!!!!!!!!!)
  If, before the update, someone told me this would happen, I would never have believed them. This is stunningly-greedy and a really disgusting way to waste players' time, especially in combination with the above complaint. I love the Grineer weapons, but I don't want to use an inferior version for hours just to get the mastery out of it! I've spent hours here on these very forums defending you guys and your mastery system; I think forcing players to try all the weapons is a good thing. This is a bridge too far, though.
• Absolute and utter lack of story content or lore justification for any of this stuff just appearing (and no, that little obtuse cutscene doesn't cut it)
  How are kuva liches actually made? How and why are the Grineer selected to be liches? Why wasn't the Worm Queen making kuva liches before? Why are the kuva weapons different? (I was gonna say 'better', but, see above.) What even is kuva, actually?
  How do they suddenly just take over a sector when it normally takes a whole invasion period for factions to even attempt to capture a sector? How does the presence or existence of kuva liches impact the other factions, and how will they respond? How does the creation and influence of a kuva lich reflect upon the locals' opinion of the Tenno?
  I understand that we are supposed to have just always had the Parazon, like a retcon, but some of this other stuff feels retcon-y too, the way it's "just there". (And by the way -- when are we going to actually see and go to some of these colonies and settlements we're always hearing about?)

I've been playing this game just about as long as anyone. I've kept my head down during the various controversies over the years and even gone to bat for DE numerous times on various issues. This is the first thing that has me questioning how much Warframe I want to keep playing. I want you to take those words and think about them, DE.

[peterc3]

2 minutes ago, auxy said:

when are we going to actually see and go to some of these colonies and settlements we're always hearing about?

When you want the Grineer to blow it up from orbit or an infested mass to get flung at it.

We are a lightning rod for the solar system's worst. There's literally no reason I'd want a Tenno to show up in my village. It's new bad news or proof it's time to leave.

[BansheePrime]

Please don't speak for me. K thanks.

[auxy]

Just now, BansheePrime said:

Please don't speak for me. K thanks.

I didn't say "all Founders". Take your ego out of my thread. "K thanks."

[Genoscythe]

While this is for sure not the first update that has me going inactive for some time right one week after launch, I think it's pretty bad, yeah. However I also think that this one would actually require less time to un-f***, because only some minor adjustment would move the kuva liches from atrocious to a productive coop-activity. Remember how long Archwing was in the game before they actually managed to merge it with the main gameplay to give it some sense?

[auxy]

Just now, Genoscythe said:

Remember how long Archwing was in the game before they actually managed to merge it with the main gameplay to give it some sense?

That happened? I'm only half-serious, but I AM half-serious.

That aside I think you're right; I think this system is definitely salvageable with some changes, but it's gonna need some changes.

PUTTING FORMA BLUEPRINTS AS A BRONZE IN THE REQUIEM RELICS WOULD BE A GOOD START, DE.

[Oreades]

Just going to poke at a couple of these. 

34 minutes ago, auxy said:

• RNG-based kuva lich properties 
  This is the real crime of this system. What weapon they use, the percent value of their elemental bonus, their powers, any quirks -- it's all too random. ALL of this should have been player-influence-able if not outright player-determined.

That part isn't RNG tho it can certainly feel like it. 

What Warframe you kill them with will determine their Damage type (tho not their percentage) as well as determine their ability set(s) tho that can feel like RNG because the powers that the Liches can have (probably by design and probably for the best) are pretty anemic. 

There is actually a list floating around that covers what frames will get you what damage types. 

34 minutes ago, auxy said:

• Weirdly-timed and utterly insane Riven disposition system changes
  The kuva weapons (for the most part, that Kuva Kraken is pretty dope) aren't better than the regular versions, so why would they get less effect from riven mods? And you say you're extending this system to all weapons? What the hell are you even doing? This is complete madness.

Personally I think this particular change was a long time coming and makes a fair bit of sense tho they are going to have to be careful with regards to how hard they go with the dispositions. 

Because of the stat differences you really can't carry over the dispositions to the various weapons and one or the other will always be hindered because of the popularity of their counterpart. so while Prime dispositions will likely go down the normal Dispositions will probably be coming up. Everything will eventually hit equilibrium tho I expect it will be messy at first. 

34 minutes ago, auxy said:

• Kuva weapons requiring 5 forma each to fully master (!!!!!!!!!!!)
  If, before the update, someone told me this would happen, I would never have believed them. This is stunningly-greedy and a really disgusting way to waste players' time, especially in combination with the above complaint. I love the Grineer weapons, but I don't want to use an inferior version for hours just to get the mastery out of it! I've spent hours here on these very forums defending you guys and your mastery system; I think forcing players to try all the weapons is a good thing. This is a bridge too far, though.

I can not agree more, it is physically not possible. 

That said I saw the writing on the walls with the Paracesis but was hoping beyond hope that was going to be a one off "we see the error of our ways" moment but NOPE and here we are. 

This has become my line in the sand and if this is going to stand then I'm in the market for a new game. 

They need to hard roll MR interaction back and remove it from the game without any of that "we're leaving it in because people have already done it" BS. Strait up remove any link to MR and forma useage, for existing weapons you just get their full MR at 30 and refund the Forma to people who have used them to get to Mastery as to avoid any unnecessary heccstorms. 

That said I'm totally fine with the 5-10 bonus Mod Pool upon investing 5 Forma, just don't tie that hecc to MR. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by Oreades

[Walkampf]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb auxy:

I didn't say "all Founders". Take your ego out of my thread. "K thanks."

Ahahahahahahaha, ah the hypocrisy.

If you are speaking for anybody but your own, then you are the one with the unreasonably inflated ego. 🙄

You schooling somebody on the very issue of having an ego is ironic.

Well, it's obvious you'd claim that youa re able to speak for other people as well, that way it at least seems that you'd have a legit point.

 

P.S.
Good job posting your opinion on a public forum and then complaining when others voice their opinion!

[auxy]

5 minutes ago, Oreades said:

What Warframe you kill them with will determine their Damage type (tho not their percentage) as well as determine their ability set(s) tho that can feel like RNG because the powers that the Liches can have (probably by design and probably for the best) are pretty anemic.

Well, it determines the damage type, sure. I haven't seen discussion on the ability set although I'm willing to admit I could simply be ignorant on that.

However, as you yourself noted, it doesn't determine the percentage nor the weapon, which means you are left with literally no recourse to try and get the weapon you want with the bonus you want besides grinding liches over, and over, and over, ad infinitum. THAT is the real problem here.

6 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Personally I think this particular change was a long time coming and makes a fair bit of sense tho they are going to have to be careful with regards to how hard they go with the dispositions. 

Because of the stat differences you really can't carry over the dispositions to the various weapons and one or the other will always be hindered because of the popularity of their counterpart. so while Prime dispositions will likely go down the normal Dispositions will probably be coming up. Everything will eventually hit equilibrium tho I expect it will be messy at first. 

But why? What's the point? All this does is make players do a bunch more math and fiddling to figure out whether the original weapon or the prime version (or whatever) is better with their riven mod. It adds a whole bunch of complexity and what do you gain? You gain nothing, ultimately. I mean what are even the arguments for this?

 

I agree with the rest of your post. Thanks for the comment.

[auxy]

Just now, Walkampf said:

If you are speaking for anybody but your own, then you are the one with the unreasonably inflated ego. 

Who is doing this?

1 minute ago, Walkampf said:

Good job posting your opinion on a public forum and then complaining when others voice their opinion!

Who is doing this?

Please cease your off-topic posting. This thread is for discussion (and complaining) about the Kuva Lich system.

[Cloudyvisage]

14 minutes ago, auxy said:

Well, it determines the damage type, sure. I haven't seen discussion on the ability set although I'm willing to admit I could simply be ignorant on that.

However, as you yourself noted, it doesn't determine the percentage nor the weapon, which means you are left with literally no recourse to try and get the weapon you want with the bonus you want besides grinding liches over, and over, and over, ad infinitum. THAT is the real problem here.

But why? What's the point? All this does is make players do a bunch more math and fiddling to figure out whether the original weapon or the prime version (or whatever) is better with their riven mod. It adds a whole bunch of complexity and what do you gain? You gain nothing, ultimately. I mean what are even the arguments for this?

 

I agree with the rest of your post. Thanks for the comment.

Those bits of fiddling are kinda what Warframe players tend to live for though? Finding something that works perfectly for you, feels and sounds good, hits hard/is precise and all that jazz. If it turns out that a riven makes the Braton Vandal better than the Prime in certain ways with that same riven? Cool! That is literally the point of Rivens, to put weapons closer to being on an even playing field. If I hadn't sold my Tiberon a while ago I would gladly go back to it as I love the look and feel of that weapon.

That being said, I'm not sure why everyone was freaking out about the riven change being a strict nerf, weren't the mods primarily balanced around the strongest variant? This should mean that any change to those rivens will be purely a buff to the weaker variants. The only reason they would be nerfing the Rivens from where they are is if they ALREADY were going to nerf it. Braton Prime maintains dispo as is, Braton Vandal gets a... let's say 15% increase, Braton normal gets a 35% increase, MK-1 Braton gets a 50% increase, that kinda thing.

Heck, I currently have a Gorgon Wraith with 5 forma and a Prisma Gorgon with 2, I like the Wraith more but ever since the weapon changes the Prsima gorgon went from being marginally superior unless you had a status chance riven (I did) to being superior in almost every way except a little bit less in status, making the riven still better on the Prisma even though it was status focused, this would bring the Wraith closer to the Prisma and the base Gorgon closer to the Prisma as well, seems like a lot of nice buffs to me. After all, by the time you're able to start getting more than the one-off rare riven you should be able to use anything you want, weapon-wise.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Cloudyvisage

[Oreades]

2 minutes ago, auxy said:

Well, it determines the damage type, sure. I haven't seen discussion on the ability set although I'm willing to admit I could simply be ignorant on that.

However, as you yourself noted, it doesn't determine the percentage nor the weapon, which means you are left with literally no recourse to try and get the weapon you want with the bonus you want besides grinding liches over, and over, and over, ad infinitum. THAT is the real problem here.

Personally I keep hoping for a Token system, EG Kill your Lich, get a Token, choose your weapon. 

The stats for the bonus can still be random BUT with the valance system coupled with some form of progression with respect to weapons that are of a lower percentage than your current weapon. I think they would really have something because no Lich would feel like a waste of time. Which is a good chunk of their problem as things stand, even with the current Valance system they are only worth while if and ONLY if they have a better bonus damage than your current. 

5 minutes ago, auxy said:

But why? What's the point? All this does is make players do a bunch more math and fiddling to figure out whether the original weapon or the prime version (or whatever) is better with their riven mod. It adds a whole bunch of complexity and what do you gain? You gain nothing, ultimately. I mean what are even the arguments for this?

Why? Like I said, currently one or the other is always punished for the popularity of it's counterparts and because of the base stat differences that just doesn't make sense. 

I think they should shift away from giving strait up stats view on the base riven and shift instead to something more easy to digest with regard to the Riven as a whole. 

Right now for example something might have 150% multishot on one weapon but 75% on it's variant, so displaying either doesn't really make sense. Instead I feel they should display a function of the rivens total potential and probably largely in a non numerical form. Because the Rivens bonus ratio doesn't change between weapons if for example that riven had 60% of it's potential in Multishot and the remaining 40% spread out wherever that doesn't change between weapons, just the bonus that 60% breaks down into. 

I would also suggest that it might behoove them to switch away from a numeric representation of those ratios to lesson confusion. So it would be a Six Star  in Multishot instead of outright saying 60%. As well as showing the actual bonuses for any applicable weapons kinda how they are trying to set it up now where you mouse over them and it shows you how that Six Star bonus breaks down into actual percentage bonus for each weapon.

At least that's where I would be leaning. 

[auxy]

8 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Personally I keep hoping for a Token system, EG Kill your Lich, get a Token, choose your weapon.

That would be an improvement, yes, although you'd still have the issue with the randomly generated elemental bonus amount. The valence transfer mechanic is a hasty band-aid on a broken system; at the very least you should be able to COMBINE weapons with the same element to increase the bonus. At the very least.

I agree that "liches can be a total waste of time and there is no way to discard them and try again without spending 4+ hours disposing of them (assuming you already have the right requiem mods!)" is a humongous problem, possibly the biggest.

8 minutes ago, Oreades said:

Why? Like I said, currently one or the other is always punished for the popularity of it's counterparts and because of the base stat differences that just doesn't make sense. 

In the case of the Primes, they're *supposed* to be a straight upgrade. You're not supposed to want to use the Braton if you have the Prime. I've never thought that was all that great; I don't like linear upgrades, but it is what it is.

In the case of weapons like the Braton Vandal vs. the Prime, ideally they should offer different things (i.e. crit and superior range vs. status and superior handling) and the riven should apply equally to both. I don't see any valid argument for having the same riven mod apply uniquely to different weapons. It just doesn't make sense in any context.

8 minutes ago, Oreades said:

I would also suggest that it might behoove them to switch away from a numeric representation of those ratios to lesson confusion. So it would be a Six Star  in Multishot instead of outright saying 60%. As well as showing the actual bonuses for any applicable weapons kinda how they are trying to set it up now where you mouse over them and it shows you how that Six Star bonus breaks down into actual percentage bonus for each weapon.

This is pretty decent, if they're dead-set on this "rivens apply different stats to variants" thing. I still think it's a terrible idea, though. Brain-bendingly monstrous.

9 minutes ago, Cloudyvisage said:

Those bits of fiddling are kinda what Warframe players tend to live for though? Finding something that works perfectly for you, feels and sounds good, hits hard/is precise and all that jazz. If it turns out that a riven makes the Braton Vandal better than the Prime in certain ways with that same riven? Cool! That is literally the point of Rivens, to put weapons closer to being on an even playing field. If I hadn't sold my Tiberon a while ago I would gladly go back to it as I love the look and feel of that weapon.

See my above comments to Oreades.

9 minutes ago, Cloudyvisage said:

That being said, I'm not sure why everyone was freaking out about the riven change being a strict nerf, weren't the mods primarily balanced around the strongest variant? This should mean that any change to those rivens will be purely a buff to the weaker variants. The only reason they would be nerfing the Rivens from where they are is if they ALREADY were going to nerf it. Braton Prime maintains dispo as is, Braton Vandal gets a... let's say 15% increase, Braton normal gets a 35% increase, MK-1 Braton gets a 50% increase, that kinda thing.

I didn't see any freaking out in that regard; that's certainly not my complaint.

I just don't want the exact situation you're talking about. If the riven adds 50% multishot to the MK-1 and only 15% to the Prime, well, which one ends up doing more damage? It's going to make everything fuzzy and unclear and generally add a bunch of tedium to the game. I'm all about finding the best choice, but this is just going to complicate things so far beyond practicality.

Edited November 11, 2019 by auxy

[Walkampf]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb auxy:

Who is doing this?

 

vor 49 Minuten schrieb auxy:

Founders scowling in disgust at Update 26

 

vor 15 Minuten schrieb auxy:

Who is doing this?

Case 1:

vor 38 Minuten schrieb auxy:

Take your ego out of my thread. "K thanks."

Case 2:

vor 16 Minuten schrieb auxy:

Please cease your off-topic posting.

My opinion regarding your choice of words is very much on topic.

Because, while every person has the right to an own opinion, not all oinions are worth the same.

Your opinion for example is on the same level as that of flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. It is badly informed, features hardly no foundation and made almost entirly out of nothing but sensationalism.

[auxy]

@Walkampf No, it isn't on-topic, I'm sorry. If you have a personal problem with me, you should take it up with me in private messages.

There are in fact "founders scowling in disgust at Update 26" and it is not egotistical in any way to say that. I am not speaking for anyone else besides the persons in question. Again, I did not say "all Founders" -- I don't know BansheePrime, why would I be speaking about them? You don't get to say rude things about me and clog up my thread with personal attacks because you misunderstood (or read in your own meaning to) something I wrote.

As for your unprompted and unjustified attacks on the validity of my opinions, well.

[Vit0Corleone]

57 minutes ago, auxy said:

Insanely tanky liches at high rank 
I've been playing this game nigh-on seven years. I have top-end gear and top-end builds. It can still take me minutes to knock off a third of one of these liches' health bars by myself, if I'm unlucky to have it spawn while nobody else is around. It's not challenging, it's just tedious.

So far I've beaten 19 Liches and am yet to see one that doesn't go down in seconds. Solo or in a squad makes little difference.

Not sure what to tell you, but my experience is very different from yours.

[auxy]

Just now, Vit0Corleone said:

So far I've beaten 19 Liches and am yet to see one that doesn't go down in seconds. Solo or in a squad makes little difference.

Not sure what to tell you, but my experience is very different from yours.

I have heard this remark from other people, particularly on the Warframe discord. However, other people there -- and other people elsewhere, such as in my clan, and other random players I've met -- also agreed that liches can be ludicrously tanky.

I'm not sure where the disconnect lies; some people have assumed that I was using a resisted element and certainly I think that's a factor in some people's experience, but even when using an element that isn't resisted, or even a weak element, liches can be incredibly difficult to drop.

Thanks for your reply in any case.

[AgasKahn]

hace 1 hora, auxy dijo:

Insanely tanky liches at high rank 
I've been playing this game nigh-on seven years. I have top-end gear and top-end builds. It can still take me minutes to knock off a third of one of these liches' health bars by myself, if I'm unlucky to have it spawn while nobody else is around. It's not challenging, it's just tedious.

 

hace 1 hora, auxy dijo:

Melee changes: Overall good. Most stances feel much better to use and melee weapons don't require gimmick builds (BR/CO) to work on starmap-level content.
                           The nerf of melee "power" at post-endgame/"endurance" levels doesn't matter to me because I don't engage in that tomfoolery.
                           Special mention to the animators for patching up and re-animating some moves that looked jank before and now look great.

I am not a founder, but I can clearly say that I share a large majority with all the strengths you mentioned, except for those 2 that I cited

I was not particularly difficult encounters with the liches, mine and squadmates, I know they can get tough, but I consider them passable

and as for melee, I cannot summarize it alone in this right or wrong, they touched too many things and in my opinion they fixed many, but destroyed others

and returning to the subject, with the other points I think you can not be more successful

 

[auxy]

1 minute ago, AgasKahn said:

I was not particularly difficult encounters with the liches, mine and squadmates, I know they can get tough, but I consider them passable

That's fair. I myself have had encounters with liches that were comically easy, even at rank 5. But sometimes...

2 minutes ago, AgasKahn said:

and as for melee, I cannot summarize it alone in this right or wrong, they touched too many things and in my opinion they fixed many, but destroyed others

Personally, I am not someone who ever played "endurance" modes (survival for hours, or 50+ waves of defense) often, so the changes just feel good to me.

However, a couple of my clanmates feel this way. I empathize with the feeling; it's never fun when your favorite weapon is suddenly weaker, or even "weak".

Thanks for the reply and the support.

[AgasKahn]

Already announced changes in the liches

[Xzorn]

Can I be in the club or is this a pay2win only thread?

Ember lost be best and most unique ability Accelerant. Both in damage and CC capacity. Not sure how that equates to Fantastic.
Vauban lost Concuss which actually makes old Vauban survive better than new since those CC immune enemies will just shoot him.

I accidentally made a Kuva Lich while doing a run through holding left click for Nightchores. You can just read the RNG and should know better.

[auxy]

44 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Ember lost be best and most unique ability Accelerant. Both in damage and CC capacity. Not sure how that equates to Fantastic.

Cool troll bro! 👌👌👌😂😂😂👍👍👍💯💯💯

Seriously, what a joke. You haven't even played her rework; her 3 does even more CC than Accelerant ever did, now.

And Immolate is just the old Overheat with a new name and a special gauge. Replacing Overheat with Accelerant is the thing that ruined her in the first place.

[Xzorn]

38 minutes ago, auxy said:

Cool troll bro! 👌👌👌😂😂😂👍👍👍💯💯💯

Seriously, what a joke. You haven't even played her rework; her 3 does even more CC than Accelerant ever did, now.

And Immolate is just the old Overheat with a new name and a special gauge. Replacing Overheat with Accelerant is the thing that ruined her in the first place.

 

Accelerant was a unique ability to the game. Nothing else amplified Heat damage. It made her the 2nd best team damage buff frame for guns after Banshee long as there was no Armor. A simple 200% Power Strength Ember increased team damage output by 600% and considerably more if they shot through stacked Fireblasts.

If you think a Ragdoll that makes enemies harder to hit, costs more energy and has a CD period is better than a spamable stun for CC then I think this conversation will go nowhere. One is clearly a better form of CC. You might have played Ember but I've doubts you played her well after that comment.

Ember wasn't ruined by removing the DR on her 2nd. It was dumb but she still worked fine because she had CC through Accelerant and WoF. She could output a lot more damage than before too. It wasn't until they nerfed her for the 10th time she was ruined in addition to all the new immune enemies she could do nothing about.

• Accelerant scaled off weapon damage.
• Fireblast scaled off weapon damage.
• Flash Accelerant scaled off weapon damage.
• Fireball Frenzy scaled off weapon damage.

All she has left is Fireball Frenzy and you're going to claim she's fantastic? She scales right off a cliff. "Ember's damage sucks. Armor Scaling. I don't know how to use guns". Meanwhile Pure Corrosive Torrid, amp it up with Heat; lvl 300 Solo Grineer but nah lets all complain cuz we can't AFK WoF so we get yet another generic kit frame.

[auxy]

2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

If you think a Ragdoll that makes enemies harder to hit, costs more energy and has a CD period is better than a spamable stun for CC then I think this conversation will go nowhere. One is clearly a better form of CC. You might have played Ember but I've doubts you played her well after that comment.

No, I quit playing her when they turned her into an AFK WoF bot. When I played her, she was a tank frame.

She's finally true to her original design, and that's why those of us who liked her back when like her once again.

[Walkampf]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb auxy:

As for your unprompted and unjustified attacks on the validity of my opinions, well.

Again with the hypocrisy, you can't claim that you don't care and then can't help yourself but to respond anyway...