The true reason why DE won't fix Lich RNG

[DoomFruit]

38 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Except that those that draw connections between this and rivens are very out of touch with the whole thing. A lich weapon will never ever have the impact of a riven and will never be of any real value for anything. At worst we will probably look at something like 50p (if even that) for a lich with a specific weapon, with a specific damage type, with a specific percentage incase they ever become available as plat trades.

So if you are going to compare it to anything within the riven system it is the lowest of the low disposition and nothing else. A Kuva weapon will barely even bring the bonus that a minimal dispo riven will for a weapon. And those rivens go for practically nothing, if they can even be sold at all. Those rivens are also far more rare than 1 weapon out of 13 with a specific roll.

At the moment, perhaps. But what happens later on when more Grineer weapons get kuvafied, and when we also get corpus and infested "liches" (orokin too?). I also wouldn't be surprised if the kuva gear got buffed, because the weapons are mediocre as you say, but they come from what's supposedly an endgame process - the effort-reward tradeoff isn't there.

[Andrew7811]

22 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

It's simple: Money.

The Lich system is probably their new iteration of Rivens - A new moneymaking scheme, and they are testing the mechanics and our responses.

They are gonna make Liches contracts tradeable as they said. So, once the trading begins and the platinum flows, can you imagine what's next?

Exactly as I, and many other players feared when Kuva liches were first introduced. This is going to become Rivens 2.0 where some players are going to go "WTS best Toxin Kuva Khom with ephmera 10K plat"

This will have quite a toxic effect on the warframe economy that will end up artificially inflating prices on everything that can be traded between players because some suckers are going to decide to buy a crap ton of plat instantly. DE should instead find other ways to reward players who end up hoarding lots of good converted liches,

[Remedyheart]

23 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

It's simple: Money.

The Lich system is probably their new iteration of Rivens - A new moneymaking scheme, and they are testing the mechanics and our responses.

They are gonna make Liches contracts tradeable as they said. So, once the trading begins and the platinum flows, can you imagine what's next?

Imagine how much platinum a lich contract with a perfect 60% roll would cost.  Imagine how much an ephemera contract would cost. They've just made tradeable cosmetics a thing!

Now imagine the new additions down the road: New weapons. New elemental combinations. New stat boosts like critical chance or critical damage. The system will basically become Rivenized weapons (and not just weapons, but reskinned existing ones. All the benefits of new content with 0 effort) plus cosmetics as a bonus. It's just ephemeras now, but soon it could be armor pieces and syandanas as well.

How long before Liches can drop a Kuva Ignis with bonus slash/viral combo and critical+status chance? How much do you think a perfect 60% damage bonus weapon with the right extra stats would cost? 1k platinum? 2k platinum? More? This is just another marketable feature to move platinum around, to make people invest money, time and resources.

RNG is just a way of creating artificial scarcity, much like the riven slot machines.

Time will tell if I'm right or if this is just a nutty conspiracy theory. Once Liches become tradeable, and the results are analyzed, we'll truly see what will happen.

Geee! Its like we're not playing a free to play game! Oh wait...contradictions. Right.

Go back to your abusive relationship you call a console game.

[Fire2box]

10 minutes ago, Remedyheart said:

Geee! Its like we're not playing a free to play game! Oh wait...contradictions. Right.

Go back to your abusive relationship you call a console game.

I fail to see why we should accept bad gameplay and bad monetization in a free to play game. 

[Remedyheart]

2 minutes ago, Fire2box said:

I fail to see why we should accept bad gameplay and bad monetization in a free to play game. 

I fail to see the reason for complaining when this game is free and development still continues with 100s of handouts given away.

What is your beef man?

Edited November 13, 2019 by Remedyheart

[ixidron92]

hace 17 minutos, Remedyheart dijo:

Geee! Its like we're not playing a free to play game! Oh wait...contradictions. Right.

Go back to your abusive relationship you call a console game.

 I believe sacrificing gameplay for the shake of monetization is eventually self defeating and harmful for the game. It's possible to monetize something fairly without screwing over the playerbase.

Edited November 13, 2019 by ixidron92

[Remedyheart]

Just now, ixidron92 said:

 I believe sacrificing gameplay for the shake of monetization is eventually self defeating and harmful for the game.

Guess what. What did wr give in return besides our time. Nothing. So we lose nothing. We voluteer to use our time on this game. 

Ya don't like it then avoid it but you also lose nothing.

Jesus just because they put a reset button on your builds don't mean the end of the world. What happened to the fun part of collecting and making your own thing?

Just...did DE take your weapons away from you or something? Because you sure act like they did. But I look in my equipment inventory and see the exact same stuff I've always had. And I got a lot of stuff for a 3 year MR 26.

[Teridax68]

56 minutes ago, Remedyheart said:

Guess what. What did wr give in return besides our time. Nothing. So we lose nothing. We voluteer to use our time on this game. 

That's not quite true, though, because as you just said, we put time into this game, and we could've spent that time doing something else. This time is worth something to us, as we could obviously be using it to do more productive tasks, but it is also worth something to DE, as it feeds directly into their player statistics, and therefore their bankable reputation. Thus, there is in fact a tacit agreement at hand, where we players agree to commit to this videogame, on the basis that this videogame provides us with enjoyment in return. When the game fails to achieve this due to a mistake, it is justifiable for players to criticize it, but when the game fails to achieve this due to an intentional design decision, it is equally justifiable for players to lose faith in the established agreement, and by extension in the game and its developers. You also can't really use the pretense that Warframe is free-to-play in this respect, when it has been a known fact for some time in the videogame industry that some of the most predatory monetization schemes are attached to f2p games, particularly on mobile.

Warframe is ultimately a game being sold for a profit, even if its monetization process follows differently from that of the classic good traded for a lump sum: because DE just promised to tie Liches into the trading system, which features the exchange of Platinum, itself shorthand for real money, the game is effectively about to incentivize us to pay real money to get rid of an inconvenience. It does not matter what the intent is (even though I'd say it's pretty transparent), DE has manufactured an inconvenience, has been made aware that players dislike this inconvenience, yet has refused to comprehensively address said inconvenience, instead giving us the option to pay to make the inconvenience go away. This is not ethical, and that aside is simply not good for us players. Worse still, though, I doubt it's even that good for the developers, because this is one of those monetization schemes that puts players and devs at odds with each other, where one only benefits at the expense of the other. You can dismiss the OP's warnings as you like, but as it stands, this update made Warframe fall off the top 10 most played games on Steam. People have lost faith in the game. If you truly like Warframe and want it to prosper, it would be better not to blindly defend it as it visibly suffers; rather, it is better to criticize the game fairly, and give clear feedback on how it can become more successful. I for one am not going to pretend things are fine when DE releases an update that has so far visibly not had the most positive impact, and so due to the Kuva Lich system.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Teridax68

[Fire2box]

1 hour ago, Remedyheart said:

I fail to see the reason for complaining when this game is free and development still continues with 100s of handouts given away.

What is your beef man?

Well they or at least Megan already said the Lich system is designed to be RNG so people can't farm one after the other and be done in a day or a weekend. Allowing people to trade lichs, reverting them to contracts with the same weapon, the same stats lets people do exactly that. The only difference is there's the extra steps of going to a new clan then back to the old one if players so choose. 

Whats your beef with people voicing their own opinion? 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Fire2box

[Mikaer88]

A gay fat man once said:

"A game selling "time savers" is a game admitting it's bad. It's saying there's clear value on playing the game less, simple as that."

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

32 minutes ago, Mikaer88 said:

A gay fat man once said:

"A game selling "time savers" is a game admitting it's bad. It's saying there's clear value on playing the game less, simple as that."

And he is wrong. Time is the most precious commodity you have, so every game(most commonly part of a game) has value on playing less. But it's the developers' choice whether cash in on that value or not, and some of them do it in a nasty way.

Edited November 14, 2019 by (PS4)caoshen0625

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

4 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

 I believe sacrificing gameplay for the shake of monetization is eventually self defeating and harmful for the game. It's possible to monetize something fairly without screwing over the playerbase.

I agree with the first sentence, but I don't understand why you are screwed

[SordidDreams]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

Time is the most precious commodity you have, so every game(most commonly part of a game) has value on playing less.

That's like saying that making a rollercoaster shorter makes it better because you get to the end sooner.

[Aldain]

...Has DE even talked about these contracts being tradeable on the standard market at all?

Or is this preemptive hysteria?

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

6 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

That's like saying that making a rollercoaster shorter makes it better because you get to the end sooner.

yes if you don't really enjoy the thrill but want that rollercoaster photo. 

[SordidDreams]

1 minute ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

yes if you don't really enjoy the thrill but want that rollercoaster photo. 

Then you're doing rollercoasters wrong.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

3 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

Then you're doing rollercoasters wrong.

To you, of course, but money is money, and there's a lot ppl play the game "wrong", but again, their money is as good as yours. If ppl paying for it, then there's value in it. Have you ever use fast travel in an open world game? Does a game that have fast travel make it bad? I use fast travel, but if they sell it for money, I'll riot.

My point is it's that if the developers sell time saver, it doesn't necessarily mean the game is bad, it means the developers have low standards.  

[SordidDreams]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

To you, of course, but money is money, and there's a lot ppl play the game "wrong", but again, their money is as good as yours. If ppl paying for it, then there's value in it. 

And that right there is why capitalism is cancer. It doesn't incentivize making a good product, just one that sells well. And that's not the same thing.

6 minutes ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

Does a game that have fast travel make it bad? I use fast travel, but if they sell it for money, I'll riot.

What if they sell it for money after deliberately making the game world huge and empty to be as boring to travel manually as possible?

6 minutes ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

My point is it's that if the developers sell time saver, it doesn't necessarily mean the game is bad, it means the developers have low standards.  

I have a hard time understanding how a developer with low standards would be able to create a game that is good, except perhaps by accident, and I think games are too complex for that.

Edited November 14, 2019 by SordidDreams

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

And that right there is why capitalism is cancer. It doesn't incentivize making a good product, just one that sells well. And that's not the same thing.

 

Agree 100%

4 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

What if they sell it for money after deliberately making the game world huge and empty to be as boring to travel manually as possible?

Then they are the lowest of the lowest, and sadly it's basically fuking mandatory in AAA this days...Just so sad

[SordidDreams]

8 hours ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

Then they are the lowest of the lowest, and sadly it's basically fuking mandatory in AAA this days...Just so sad

So what do you think of all of Warframe's grind and time gating? Resource grind, affinity grind and the need to forma weapons and frames many times to bring them up to their potential, prime part grind, kuva grind, having to wait days for items to craft in the foundry, etc., etc. Do you think these elements were put into the game because they make the game more fun to play, and it's just a coincidence that there's a way to pay money to skip or at least speed them up?

Incidentally, what do you think of the foundry UI, where the "pay money to skip" button is literally half the width of the screen and the cancel button is tiny and embedded in the larger button? What do you think that UI design is trying to accomplish?

Edited November 14, 2019 by SordidDreams

[Test-995]

I mean, if they want money prolly they'd try to make a meta or interesting weapons...

[ixidron92]

hace 4 horas, SordidDreams dijo:

So what do you think of all of Warframe's grind and time gating? Resource grind, affinity grind and the need to forma weapons and frames many times to bring them up to their potential, prime part grind, kuva grind, having to wait days for items to craft in the foundry, etc., etc. Do you think these elements were put into the game because they make the game more fun to play, and it's just a coincidence that there's a way to pay money to skip or at least speed them up?

Incidentally, what do you think of the foundry UI, where the "pay money to skip" button is literally half the width of the screen and the cancel button is tiny and embedded in the larger button? What do you think that UI design is trying to accomplish?

Do you realize that players are usually fine with timegating and effort based grind, but RNG based grind is something everyone despises and basically just the key feature of Chinese MMOs?

Had they made weapon bonuses depend on the level you kill your lich and upgradeable by killing more liches, collecting resources they drop and building upgrade modules from those resources, people wouldn't be complaining about it.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, DoomFruit said:

At the moment, perhaps. But what happens later on when more Grineer weapons get kuvafied, and when we also get corpus and infested "liches" (orokin too?). I also wouldn't be surprised if the kuva gear got buffed, because the weapons are mediocre as you say, but they come from what's supposedly an endgame process - the effort-reward tradeoff isn't there.

It wont change, why would it?

It will still be a much less random items compared to rivens. I mean they are so far and wide apart that the only thing that really connects them is that they involve RNG. You'll still be able to effectively grind them, still be able to pinpoint the exact stat you want while also being able to specifically decide which faction to hunt. The roll variance between min and max is also far lower than that of Rivens. As I said they are comparable to the lowest possible dispo rivens but with far less RNG tied to them. Really low dispo rivens very rarely sell for an amount of plat even worth mentioning.

And if they add more weapons to the Grineer pool I'm fairly sure they will solve it to a point with the arbitration route, remove certain weapon drops from the pool and have them obtained in a different way. Maybe even give you a choice of two at that point to make the grind fairly even for old and new weapons alike.

I wouldnt bet on them buffing the weapons. They are obvious upgrades over their normal versions, while some are actually respectably strong among other weapons, like the Kuva Brakk. It is just that there are better weapons out there. And to be fair, the effort-reward tradeoff is pretty fair since the content is pretty damn trivial. The only thing it really takes is time and facing an auto-death animation a few times. None of it is actually challenging when it comes to the mechanics of the fight.

[SordidDreams]

21 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

Do you realize that players are usually fine with timegating and effort based grind, but RNG based grind is something everyone despises and basically just the key feature of Chinese MMOs?

Had they made weapon bonuses depend on the level you kill your lich and upgradeable by killing more liches, collecting resources they drop and building upgrade modules from those resources, people wouldn't be complaining about it.

Yes? Do you realize I was asking a question, and not even asking you at that?

Yeah, I don't understand why they didn't do that. But what do I know, I'm not a professional game designer.

[Darklord_Tou]

I wouldnt really say they wont fix Lich RNG because they want to milk there fanbase.If you look at the lich system closely you dont really see anything that says otherwise.

Now here is the thing on a looter game rng is a must to have to keep player grinding.Warframe has gone away without or less rng for too long.But no rng is a death nail for any looter game.So de is trying to add rng loot like riven and lich weapons but its pissing off many player because people will always want less rng.DE is pretty much in a no win situation here.