Liches will still kill you no matter what.

[ixidron92]

Justo ahora, Azvalk dijo:

It's also the way I explain it to myself, if I really had to accept it.
but I still do not want to accept this idea because it's just bad.
It's like if a game master of a roleplay session, unfairly decided to kill a player, like that, on a whim.
This death is absolutely not the result of a player's incompetence.
It is rather the result of an incompetence of the dev to produce an enemy constituting a real threat.

The DE equivalent of "Rocks fall you all die". Shows an epic fail when it comes to decision making.

[sam686]

"Liches will still kill you no matter what.", not always. Be a client in multiplayer squad, then press the transference and use context action buttons at the same time. 

I do agree this shouldn't cause deaths. Slow animation is also annoying.

 

[Azvalk]

il y a 3 minutes, sam686 a dit :

not always. Be a client in multiplayer squad, then press the transference and use context action buttons at the same time. 

Yeah, great bug, awesome.. 
So, a useless idea that breaks the coherence of the concept, and in addition, it is bugged. u.u

[TenebraeAeterna]

2 minutes ago, Azvalk said:

It's also the way I explain it to myself, if I really had to accept it.
but I still do not want to accept this idea because it's just bad.
It's like if a game master of a roleplay session, unfairly decided to kill a player, like that, on a whim.
This death is absolutely not the result of a player's incompetence.
It is rather the result of an incompetence of the dev to produce an enemy constituting a real threat.

I think that's where the disconnect is between myself and other players...

I don't really feel the impact of a single "death" in a mission. It's a failed mission that gives me the feeling of "death," so this system just doesn't bother me...it feels only a little more impactful than a failed hack.

Now if the mission failed and the lich leveled...then I'd be experiencing the same sort of distaste most others do.

6 minutes ago, GruntBlender said:

I care that it's not fun. I care that it's not what was shown originally to hype it up. I care that it's not long term or in any way sustainable.

I definitely care about all that...

The content is too quick to burn through, there isn't enough uniqueness currently implemented to keep people engaged, and the current system still has many people fairly divided when it comes to how to engage the system overall. The harvesting of murmurs and dealing with your lich needed to be two separate progressional systems, rather than rolled up into one...which would have then avoided all of the strife the system brought from the start.

The trading of liches, as it's currently implemented, is a nightmare from the standpoint of the lore...as is the current method of opting in, as there's no illusion of accidentally creating our liches...meaning that, from a story-standpoint, you can only explain it as, "Tenno wanted a new gun and unleashed an oppressive warlord of great power onto the Origin System in order to get it."

...and unlike the Tenno, most in the origin system don't have avatars that allow them to avoid death.

I'm simply speaking in context to the specific facet spoken about here, which is one of the few things that doesn't bother me about the entire system...heh.

[Azvalk]

il y a 8 minutes, Azvalk a dit :

il y a 12 minutes, sam686 a dit :

not always. Be a client in multiplayer squad, then press the transference and use context action buttons at the same time. 

Yeah, great bug, awesome.. 
So, a useless idea that breaks the coherence of the concept, and in addition, it is bugged. u.u

what's next? '-'
They will put a dev on it to fix this bug ?
Or put some devs on it to remove this bad idea of mandatory death, and come back to a concept that works '-' ?
I remind you that being killed by the lich pushed the players to not fight the lich, which forced DE to create a way for the lich to leave. <. <
I say that to insist on the fact that, from the begining, this little silly idea is problematic >.<

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, TenebraeAeterna said:

I think that's where the disconnect is between myself and other players...

I don't really feel the impact of a single "death" in a mission. It's a failed mission that gives me the feeling of "death," so this system just doesn't bother me...it feels only a little more impactful than a failed hack.

Some people just have a distaste for it from a game design and narrative standpoint.

I mean currently a player can down their Lich with 0 damage taken and die from the auto death, that is a ludonarrative dissonance between the gameplay and the fixed outcome.

The death isn't the actual problem, but rather that it is outside of the player's actual control and happens no matter how well a player performs in combat, if that helps clear up the issue some have a bit.

[Azvalk]

il y a 5 minutes, Aldain a dit :

Some people just have a distaste for it from a game design and narrative standpoint.

I mean currently a player can down their Lich with 0 damage taken and die from the auto death, that is a ludonarrative dissonance between the gameplay and the fixed outcome.

The death isn't the actual problem, but rather that it is outside of the player's actual control and happens no matter how well a player performs in combat, if that helps clear up the issue some have a bit.

Yes !
Of course, I want the lich to be able to kill us, even easily if they want it !
I don't care. Put all the power you want in this nemesis, like the wolf of Saturn if necessary. But not out of control, without logic, and breaking a fine idea that didn't ask anything ..

[Aldain]

Just now, Azvalk said:

Put all the power you want in this nemesis, like the wolf of Saturn if necessary.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record for this, but Wolfy wasn't powerful, he was just a damage sponge.

His mooks were a bigger threat than he was since he was melee locked (outside of hammer throws, which were easy to dodge).

But I do agree that the power of the enemies has to be done in some fashion other than "You win, now die" design.

[Azvalk]

il y a 3 minutes, Aldain a dit :

I'm gonna sound like a broken record for this, but Wolfy wasn't powerful, he was just a damage sponge.

His mooks were a bigger threat than he was since he was melee locked (outside of hammer throws, which were easy to dodge).

But I do agree that the power of the enemies has to be done in some fashion other than "You win, now die" design.

Yes I know xD
I hesitated to talk about wolfy for that ..
It's just an example.
I mean, the very first time I met the wolf, I had a really strong enemy in front of me, and who was dealing real damage, I had to constantly heal myself between each of my attempts.
He was a character who, in terms of immersion, had presence, who inspired a little fear, we did not know if we would succeed.
that's what is needed for liches.
I mean, a tense fight, against a real boss, it's possible.

[Kaadu]

"It's an interesting power reversal" - Steve

Lol. It's not the liches killing us. It's the dev team.

When the Lich kills you in combat that's understandable, and you say "I should play better, or try another build".
When a Lich kills you in a cutscene, that's DE forcing their will upon you. You didn't fail in any way, there is nothing you can do to avoid it (besides pray to RNG)

Killing the player or forcing them the fail in a cutscene just makes the player resent the game / author of the plot. Cause they are the only reason you failed.

This is turning into a universal vacuum scenario. Where DE doesn't have any justification for their decision. And can't seem to see the problem.

P.S: Liches reference dying multiple times in their voice lines. At least remove these conflicting voice lines so it doesn't look like you rushed the system to work on railjack.

[Tyreaus]

2 minutes ago, Kaadu said:

"It's an interesting power reversal" - Steve

I wasn't able to catch the entire devstream, or wherever this was from. Is that actually their reasoning?

Call this a bit of an overreaction but...they are game developers, right? They're making an interactive experience for other people, right? Not some avant garde work of film?

Like, that kind of thought process is great if it's a game only you play. Of course you dictate whether something is interesting: you're the audience. But if you're making a game for other people, you don't get to dictate whether something's interesting or not. You get to say what your intent was, maybe what your personal experience was, and that's it. The audience—the players—say what the actual end result is, whether it's interesting or effective in whatever sense desired. And if you, as a developer, find yourself telling the audience what is and isn't interesting, as if that is how they're supposed to view the content? You've got problems.

---

As far as the OP goes: it hasn't discouraged me from playing entirely, because it is relatively minor given little progress is lost on death and it's part of the path to getting rewards. But I know it's poor game design. And every time I get myself killed, in the handful of moments I decide to do the Lich system, I always mutter that it's so freaking dumb. Every time. Without fail.

I will also add that I've kind of stopped caring about the game the same way I used to. I don't care for my Warframe—discarding it by throwing it on a proverbial pike provokes that kind of mentality—so I don't really care how it looks, and if I don't care how it looks, a lot becomes just numbers and efficiency...
That's probably just my experience, but the psychological apathy I've adopted to get through the Lich death stuff has made me pretty apathetic in a broader sense than just that mission. Largely, the Warframe has become just an item, rather than a representation or avatar for myself in the game. So, plod forward with Shimmering Blight and tap E constantly. So exciting. /s

I'm just thankful it's optional so I can kind of start to care again. Lol.

[Azvalk]

All I still have to say is, please, @[DE]Steve, reconsider. '-'
All that we say here about the unfair death, it's for the game, because we love the game, and we want what's best for it.
We know, that as the developper, you have your vision for your game, and you have to decide which part of the game is heavily influenced by players will, and which is not..
But this is not about wanting to impose our vision.
This is about letting you know, that there is a little something there, that doesn't seem to be a big issue at first sight, we know, but it is. °-°
We play this game since it started, for some of us, our vision of the game have merge with yours. So you can trust us, when we point out this kind of thing, please. '-'
He will see it ? I hope he will see it ..
I'm so desperate right now u.u

[Seph-Aldaire]

Given this is the case, my current lich shall be my last. Bad game design is bad.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 hours ago, DawnMad said:

Also I don't think anyone realized Liches also die when they kill you until Steve mentioned it in the Devstream today. I think that should be more emphasized

How do they die when they kill you? Genuinely curious about this. as currently it stands you beat them up they kill you so..... They get bored and die? That's even worse

[MirageKnight]

2 hours ago, DawnMad said:

I see what Steve's point in the stream was with how there should be an enemy that kicks our butt for a change,

If he wants stuff to be able to kick our butts more often, he and his dev buddies are going to need to reel in our power levels by a significant amount so that enemies, including bosses, pose an actual challenge / wind up being very real threats to players for a change.

Steve and company gave us broken tools that we've happily exploited. It's completely on them that a significant number of us are able to trivialize almost all of game's content...even when said content has been coded to "cheat" the rules to provide some "challenge".

I think the other reason for Steve insisting on Liches killing us on bad stabs might have to do with how enamored he and the others are of the cool grapple and finisher animations they set up for the Liches.

 

[Sunder]

I'll post it any time someone mentions it. 

 

Going to my doom to progress is NOT fun DE.

 

I'm just going to avoid the Lich portion of the game entirely. If they're not changing it? I'm not playing it.I know my personal opinion is not something DE cares about but I've been playing the game for years and I'd like to see it continue to grow and expand. That being said, I don't want newer players to come across this and feel the same as I do and simply quit the game out of frustration. I'll be warning people against getting into this aspect of Warframe. 

[Sibernetika]

I don't mind getting killed, what I do mind though is the 10 second wait while to litch levels up and disappear, before I can respawn on a defence mission with the pod getting the hell beaten out of it

[(PSN)FastestKnight]

What happened to the Lich at Tennocon who had stolen powers and a stolen Volt helmet in his shoulder? The Lich who talked about us killing him "over and over" and still growing stronger? The immortal enemy?

 

That's a real Lich. That's the Lich that was promised to us. That's the Lich we want.

 

But, just like Conclave medallions, just because X and Y at the development team changed their minds, now the rest of the team decided to ignore the feedback and go along.

 

I'm so disappointed that Steve basically said "the feedback that I got was why is taking me 76 days to kill a Lich and why is the Lich beating me up so badly". No, that's the feedback that you choose not to ignore. Just like you ignored people wanting Universal Medallions applying to Conclave and focus on 1 Twitter response instead. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by (PS4)FastestKnight

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 minute ago, (PS4)FastestKnight said:

Universal Medallions applying to Conclave and focus on 1 Twitter response instead. 

It wasn't one Twitter response and the difference between conclave and liches is that concave is an equal playing ground that while does require an investment does not have any game changing things within the syndicate that players can get. It's strictly cosmetic. 

People grinded out conclave.

It's a pvp node. 

Name a game where you can unlock pvp exclusive items through means of pvp. 

Please stop bringing up this uneducated argument 

If you want the cosmetic items that we know you only really care about.......... Play conclave 

[(PSN)FastestKnight]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

It wasn't one Twitter response and the difference between conclave and liches is that concave is an equal playing ground that while does require an investment does not have any game changing things within the syndicate that players can get. It's strictly cosmetic. 

People grinded out conclave.

It's a pvp node. 

Name a game where you can unlock pvp exclusive items through means of pvp. 

Please stop bringing up this uneducated argument 

If you want the cosmetic items that we know you only really care about.......... Play conclave 

 

First, I don't care about Conclave cosmetics, I was talking about the sentiment of the majority of the players at the Forums (just check out the discussions).

Second, name a game in which cosmetic stuff is literally the endgame and in which the pvp is almost completely abandoned both by the Devs and the community. 

Third, thanks for indirectly calling me uneducated. But the argument, opinions aside, was used as an example of the devs changing their initial decision, ignoring most of the feedback and just focusing on what best suits their decision. Which is what happened with Liches. 

 

Anyways, this is a Lich thread. The Conclave stuff was just an example and one which I particularly don't care, so let's focus on the topic itself. 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)FastestKnight said:

 

First, I don't care about Conclave cosmetics, I was talking about the sentiment of the majority of the players at the Forums (just check out the discussions).

Second, name a game in which cosmetic stuff is literally the endgame and in which the pvp is almost completely abandoned both by the Devs and the community. 

Third, thanks for indirectly calling me uneducated. But the argument, opinions aside, was used as an example of the devs changing their initial decision, ignoring most of the feedback and just focusing on what best suits their decision. Which is what happened with Liches. 

 

Anyways, this is a Lich thread. The Conclave stuff was just an example and one which I particularly don't care, so let's focus on the topic itself. 

If you consider cosmetics that don't affect gameplay endgame I feel sorry for you firstly. 

Secondly. While the forms house a percentage of the playbase it dosent speak for everyone 

Same for Twitter 

Same for reddit 

Etc

And while it is a game mode most don't play I can agree on that it has been abandoned. Doesn't that Mean... Give out the rewards no. Lobby to make the gameplay and the system more accessible not just the rewards.  That was the issue at hand for many. 

Btw this 

36 minutes ago, (PS4)FastestKnight said:

But, just like Conclave medallions, just because X and Y at the development team changed their minds, now the rest of the team decided to ignore the feedback and go along

Does not equal this 

 

13 minutes ago, (PS4)FastestKnight said:

calling me uneducated. But the argument, opinions aside, was used as an example of the devs changing their initial decision, ignoring most of the feedback and just focusing on what best suits their decision. Which is what happened with Liches. 

While I agree that the lich system is terrible and needs to be fixed they are sticking with this system and ignoring it because of what they feel is right  from a player standpoint the ums use was revoked in favor of players. You can argue that it was one person on Twitter etc. But it still stands that players were against ums working on conclave as well. Everyone is generally against the lich system however 

 

I agree let's keep this on task with liches

[Urlan]

58 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

If he wants stuff to be able to kick our butts more often, he and his dev buddies are going to need to reel in our power levels by a significant amount so that enemies, including bosses, pose an actual challenge / wind up being very real threats to players for a change.

Steve and company gave us broken tools that we've happily exploited. It's completely on them that a significant number of us are able to trivialize almost all of game's content...even when said content has been coded to "cheat" the rules to provide some "challenge".

I think the other reason for Steve insisting on Liches killing us on bad stabs might have to do with how enamored he and the others are of the cool grapple and finisher animations they set up for the Liches.

 

I disagree with us needing winding in, but if that is the case; if one things that players have too many tools to kill folk, remove the enemy level scaling as is; give enemies the same options on mods and leveling gives them mod points. You have now created the same situation, and low and behold, the enemies still have superior numbers to utilize those same boosts. That comment from the devstream logically lost a lot of muster due to using the god mode during the Railjack run.

[Steel_Rook]

So a couple of points here. First of all, I found DE's attitude throughout this Dev Stream quite appalling. They spent like half an hour at the start making excuses for the sorry state of their releases without ever offering an actual apology or even indicating that they had regrets. It's pretty clear there are internal frustrations around S#&amp;&#036; not getting done on time, but nobody seems willing to go "OK, we blew our deadline. Sorry about that, we're doing what we can to keep up with releases but we've had to push some things back."

Secondly, the attitude around Liches is abominable. The Liches killing us every time is not what they promised, it's not a thing that makes sense thematically and it seems like they're sticking to it either out of sheer contrarian stubbornness or rather due to some kind of technical limitation that they don't want to admit. The dishonesty with which the Old Blood was handled, not to say the obvious slapdash manner of its release, have exhausted my benefit of a doubt. I straight-up no longer believe these people, and they weren't exactly good about not acting shifty and dismissive. If you're going to have Streams, then maybe come up with a statement so you don't end up coming across like sour grapes.

As to the topic at hand, Liches killing us on a wrong Requiem sequence is not a power reversal. It's just dumb. Doubly so when the same Lich couldn't even budge my health not 10 seconds ago, to the point where I could have clocked out for lunch and come back to him still shooting me. Then I hit a button and die in a cutscene. Sure, if the Lich had defeated me in combat AND THEN executed me, then fair's fair. I lost, I deserve to have Bain break my spine. But to kill me after I've WON? #*!% that, not to put too fine a point on it. This doesn't add to the Lich's feeling of threat and only serves to undermine how seriously I can take the game. Here's my Inaros shrugging off gunfire from Level 100 Grineer when a Lich appears. My Inaros stands there eating his damage, blasts him to pieces, then RKO OUT OF NOWHERE! Then my Inaros gets back up and proceeds to keep shrugging off gunfire from level 100 Grineer. Good thing I packed an extra spine in my lunchbox! *cue laugh track*

You can't do a "power reversal" for canned animation when there's no power reversal to be found anywhere in the mission, either before or after. If the Lich breaking my back and making me humble is intended to be humiliating, it isn't - not after the third time, anyway. At this point, I treat it the same as tripping on flat ground - yes, it's embarrassing I hope nobody saw that, but I'm not going to forget it happened in about 5 seconds. That DE are too stubborn to admit that speaks ill of their ability to listen to feedback, and I'm frankly losing my patience for it.

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

If the Lich breaking my back and making me humble is intended to be humiliating, it isn't - not after the third time, anyway.

I don't think it ever was humiliating, it was just more...insulting that they had to stoop to "Rocks fall, everyone dies" levels of BS to make Lichs seem "threatening".

[MirageKnight]

15 minutes ago, Urlan said:

I disagree with us needing winding in, but if that is the case; if one things that players have too many tools to kill folk, remove the enemy level scaling as is; give enemies the same options on mods and leveling gives them mod points.

Actually, I really like that idea...enemies using mods and all. Thanks for the civil and nicely thought-out response btw.

2 minutes ago, Steel_Rook said:

So a couple of points here. First of all, I found DE's attitude throughout this Dev Stream quite appalling.

Agreed. Little more than lip-service and a condescending hand-wave.