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What the Developers NEED to Know About Tenno


(XBOX)DarknessZeref
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There are 2 main points I believe the developers are missing in relation to the Warframe community

  • We play the game because we are allowed to be absurdly powerful given proper investment
  • The people who excel at Warframe tend to be particularly smart and usually wealthy

POINT 1: Myself and everyone I speak to about Warframe have unanimous affection for the high range, high damage and high satisfaction style of combat. You can decimate hordes with a variety of warframe and weapon combinations which is just satisfying(For its own sake). Think about it this way, any time I get a new thing or launch a power I get a burst of dopamine. When I get on and see my Zenistar doesn't do anything, I've lost a dopamine stream and my perception of enjoying the game is significantly reduced. This is an effect we're seeing across the disciplines affected by each nerf and why veteran game players like myself ultimately stop playing one game or another- they "balance" everything to a point where getting anything is a hassle and finding what is enjoyable to experience turns into a Easter egg hunt instead of a symptom of game play. What matters isn't how much I kill or even what I kill, but the experience of doing so. The more you manipulate my experience of the game, the more significant and extreme my reaction. You could be enhancing the game for the bugs, glitches, fact that my clan logo appears on some flags and not others- type of things that I would LOVE. Rather, you're reducing things. Reducing things reduces me when I use it in game. Reducing me reduces my experience. Reducing my experience below a certain point causes me to drop the game no matter the game. We all love Warframe because it's epic on the scale of power compared to other games- give me an epic enemy, don't go against Warframe's value proposition in the marketplace. *cough cough DE SCOTT

POINT 2: Just last night I met a man playing Warframe (MR14) who works as a manager for a company that develops security software for public transportation systems. Some of his clients include the City of New York and LA to name 2. This is typical of high skill players I've met I mean one of my clan members (MR16) is a bodyguard in Atlanta who's done work for Jay Z, TI and other famous people along with deployments overseas. Personally, I own several businesses and appeared in several TV shows and podcasts speaking about financial literacy and empowering the next generation of professionals. Another clanmate (MR24) is an 18 year old guy who developed a software so impressive in school, he worked at IBM and now Lenovo all without a college degree. Another cool person I met has a graphic design company, so they began an alliance and offered free amazing logos to its members while being entirely reticent about their multi-million dollar earning year. What am I saying? We ain't dumb. We have money. When we break our silence as celebrities, moguls and generally cool people- we do so because we believe you'll listen. We respect your immense programming talent to have produced such an amazing game, it's time to respect our sentience as residents within this home you've created to accurately point out where the paint is chipping and when the A/C stops working. We have verbal conversations on a daily basis related to all of the tiny things you miss and all of the enhancements that we would love to see and how the game can be improved from a variety of creative perspectives. I post this to hopefully broaden your perspective about who you're serving and potentially incite the team to embrace the feedback received concerning so many swift and major changes. Ultimately I'm speaking to you as an investor. When I'm happy, I give you money. Go back into our accounts and see when you made us happy as a reference point for your bottom line. Feel free to push us out by refusing to listen, we become awfully comfortable game hopping when a development team is too strong-willed about their feelings for their own game and obstinate in the face of progression- which we don't think you are as evidenced by taking the time out to post at all. Please prove us right. 

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4 minutes ago, (XB1)DarknessZeref said:

The people who excel at Warframe tend to be particularly smart and usually wealthy

This point is rubbish. I have seen no evidence at all that this plays any role in anything. 

 

Point 1 seems about right though. 

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This is their game, it is not ours to dictate how it is developed.

4 minutes ago, (XB1)DarknessZeref said:

When I get on and see my Zenistar doesn't do anything, I've lost a dopamine stream and my perception of enjoying the game is significantly reduced.

You have tied your fun to a thing that is explicitly under development. They will never not change weapons when they are just a means to AFK farm. Your enjoyment is subterranean compared to the health of the overall game.

6 minutes ago, (XB1)DarknessZeref said:

Ultimately I'm speaking to you as an investor.

You have the dev/player relationship massively twisted. You are not and never will be DE's boss, no matter how many super real people you totally have regular conversations with.

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Point 1: yeah, I kind of agree, though I really don't mind having a challenge either, nor due I mind them trying to limit power creep because frankly, it's unsustainable.

Point 2: Lol.  That sure is a long list of anecdotes.  Warframe has 50 million registered losers at this point.  Wealthy people are a minority of the population in general, and increasingly so... and thanks to inheritance, there's really very little tying wealth to intelligence anymore.  If you really think wealthy people are in a large segment of the player base that's down more to your own social insulation than any actual reality.  Like, I guess you could argue that you kinda have to be sort of smart to get to grips with some of the more complex features of this game when there's so little in the way of tutorials, but this is such a weird point. Also, you should watch out for Nora, I think she might be a socialist! 😋

Edited by Shoelip
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36 minutes ago, (XB1)DarknessZeref said:

There are 2 main points I believe the developers are missing in relation to the Warframe community

  • We play the game because we are allowed to be absurdly powerful given proper investment
  • The people who excel at Warframe tend to be particularly smart and usually wealthy

POINT 1: Myself and everyone I speak to about Warframe have unanimous affection for the high range, high damage and high satisfaction style of combat. You can decimate hordes with a variety of warframe and weapon combinations which is just satisfying(For its own sake). Think about it this way, any time I get a new thing or launch a power I get a burst of dopamine. When I get on and see my Zenistar doesn't do anything, I've lost a dopamine stream and my perception of enjoying the game is significantly reduced. This is an effect we're seeing across the disciplines affected by each nerf and why veteran game players like myself ultimately stop playing one game or another- they "balance" everything to a point where getting anything is a hassle and finding what is enjoyable to experience turns into a Easter egg hunt instead of a symptom of game play. What matters isn't how much I kill or even what I kill, but the experience of doing so. The more you manipulate my experience of the game, the more significant and extreme my reaction. You could be enhancing the game for the bugs, glitches, fact that my clan logo appears on some flags and not others- type of things that I would LOVE. Rather, you're reducing things. Reducing things reduces me when I use it in game. Reducing me reduces my experience. Reducing my experience below a certain point causes me to drop the game no matter the game. We all love Warframe because it's epic on the scale of power compared to other games- give me an epic enemy, don't go against Warframe's value proposition in the marketplace. *cough cough DE SCOTT

POINT 2: Just last night I met a man playing Warframe (MR14) who works as a manager for a company that develops security software for public transportation systems. Some of his clients include the City of New York and LA to name 2. This is typical of high skill players I've met I mean one of my clan members (MR16) is a bodyguard in Atlanta who's done work for Jay Z, TI and other famous people along with deployments overseas. Personally, I own several businesses and appeared in several TV shows and podcasts speaking about financial literacy and empowering the next generation of professionals. Another clanmate (MR24) is an 18 year old guy who developed a software so impressive in school, he worked at IBM and now Lenovo all without a college degree. Another cool person I met has a graphic design company, so they began an alliance and offered free amazing logos to its members while being entirely reticent about their multi-million dollar earning year. What am I saying? We ain't dumb. We have money. When we break our silence as celebrities, moguls and generally cool people- we do so because we believe you'll listen. We respect your immense programming talent to have produced such an amazing game, it's time to respect our sentience as residents within this home you've created to accurately point out where the paint is chipping and when the A/C stops working. We have verbal conversations on a daily basis related to all of the tiny things you miss and all of the enhancements that we would love to see and how the game can be improved from a variety of creative perspectives. I post this to hopefully broaden your perspective about who you're serving and potentially incite the team to embrace the feedback received concerning so many swift and major changes. Ultimately I'm speaking to you as an investor. When I'm happy, I give you money. Go back into our accounts and see when you made us happy as a reference point for your bottom line. Feel free to push us out by refusing to listen, we become awfully comfortable game hopping when a development team is too strong-willed about their feelings for their own game and obstinate in the face of progression- which we don't think you are as evidenced by taking the time out to post at all. Please prove us right. 

100% agree. Sadly, the game is on the track of becoming something that’s not warframe, constant nerfing, balancing for the mediocrity, destroying fun. The direction of the game is out of the touch and players like you and me are driven out. I had 4K plus in game hours because I enjoyed for what you described tremendously. DE is slowing killing the game and taking away the fun factors that made Warframe the game it was. 

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Just now, Shoelip said:

Point 1: yeah, I kind of agree, though I really don't mind having a challenge either, nor due I mind them trying to limit power creep because frankly, it's unsustainable.

Point 2: Lol.  That sure is a long list of anecdotes.  Warframe has 50 million registered losers at this point.  Wealthy people are a minority of the population in general, and increasingly so... and thanks to inheritance, there's really very little tying wealth to intelligence anymore.  If you really think wealthy people are in a large segment of the player base that's down more to your own social insulation than any actual reality.  Like, I guess you could argue that you kinda have to be sort of smart to get to grips with some of the more complex features of this game when there's so little in the way of tutorials, but this is such a weird point. Also, you should watch out for Nora, I think she might she's a socialist! 😋

Wealthy players like me and these mentioned by OP are those who pay the most. I always buy ANY if not ALL Tennogen items that look great. I will also pay extremely expensive synadanas and weapon accessories as long as it’s exclusive and if the game feels great to play and enjoy. If players like me are not even logging in, how is the game supported? By 80% average players who don’t pay a dime?  

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3 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

Wealthy players like me and these mentioned by OP are those who pay the most. I always buy ANY if not ALL Tennogen items that look great. I will also pay extremely expensive synadanas and weapon accessories as long as it’s exclusive and if the game feels great to play and enjoy. If players like me are not even logging in, how is the game supported? By 80% average players who don’t pay a dime?  

DE have made Warframe's niche by developing its reputation as a live service game that isn't designed primarily to appeal to whales...  They've apparently become increasingly more successful over time doing what they've been doing, so I'm not sure why they'd listen to some random person who literally called themselves a "celebrity/mogul" over their own actual real world experience...  I mean, hell, I most definitely appreciate those who pay more into the game than I've been able to, but OP looks so full of themselves. 😅

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8 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Point? That entitles you to nothing but what you paid for.

It doesn't entitle us to anything, rather it's a point about how everyone perceives a free game.

No one is forced to pay for anything, but when we do it's because we're having fun. If we're having fun it doesn't matter if it's my last 80$ or a negligent $80, I'm paying it. 
The point is that focusing on the hot spots when people pay the most relative to features gives them data points to understand what we all like in the only way that really matters to a business- financially. 

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2 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Sadly, the game is on the track of becoming something that’s not warframe, constant nerfing, balancing for the mediocrity, destroying fun.

I still have a ton of faith! They're doing a great job and most of their changes are solid, but the few are in the direction of what you're mentioning. They've been nerfing, but I have faith that they'll stop. Their concept of "balance" is a bit misguided, you can really tell technical people make all the calls. I'm still having fun! I just feel like it's only because I have EVERYTHING that I can switch SPECIFICALLY to what's fun, which is a bit of a frownie face

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6 minutes ago, (XB1)DarknessZeref said:

The point is that focusing on the hot spots when people pay the most relative to features gives them data points to understand what we all like in the only way that really matters to a business- financially. 

The folks at DE aren't in this for the money, or else they'd just go suckle at EA's teat. They need money, sure. Have to make profit to get somewhere.

But money isn't their chief concern.

Edited by DrakeWurrum
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On 2019-12-17 at 8:07 PM, Shoelip said:

Wealthy people are a minority of the population in general, and increasingly so... Like, I guess you could argue that you kinda have to be sort of smart to get to grips with some of the more complex features of this game when there's so little in the way of tutorials, but this is such a weird point.

True. The argument is that you do have to be smart to figure things out so quickly, one of my clanmates started playing in August and already has a railjack built at MR 16, that takes some mental toughness- there are multiple learning curves in Warframe.

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4 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

The folks at DE aren't in this for the money, or else they'd just go suckle at EA's teat. They need money, sure. Have to make profit to get somewhere.

But money isn't their chief concern.

I'm here for this response! I love a company that isn't money grubbing and it's clear to me that DE isn't that. I just wish they'd see the connection between how much fun players have and their decision to hit "purchase" 

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2 hours ago, Shoelip said:

They've apparently become increasingly more successful over time doing what they've been doing, so I'm not sure why they'd listen to some random person 

What they've been doing is meticulously combing the forums for the opinions of "random persons" and implementing what aligns with their processes. That's why they'd listen. It's why they're successful

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3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is their game, it is not ours to dictate how it is developed.

You have the dev/player relationship massively twisted.

It's their game that needs us as players to continue functioning so on that point we disagree. It is a  scenario of servant leadership. They don't make the game and publish updates for themselves

 

3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

You are not and never will be DE's boss

If my name is James Schmalz, you are very wrong. 
Erroneous point of contention, we are the boss of DE like the US citizens are the boss of their President. If we leave for a "better" game and let them get the Evolve treatment, you probably wouldn't be standing firm by that point. 

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3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is their game, it is not ours to dictate how it is developed.

You have tied your fun to a thing that is explicitly under development. They will never not change weapons when they are just a means to AFK farm. Your enjoyment is subterranean compared to the health of the overall game.

You have the dev/player relationship massively twisted. You are not and never will be DE's boss, no matter how many super real people you totally have regular conversations with.

Please explain how the zenistar is "AFK".  You were able to use it for massive status and then combine that with your  weapons to be able to go far into higher level enemies (high level being 100,200....etc).  The zenistar was by no means afk because you still needed to be active.  A good example of actual AFK was banshee, where you could  use her 4 and walk away from the game.  And the zenistar now has the potential to have more than double to the time it previously had.  So where is your argument going?

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5 часов назад, (XB1)DarknessZeref сказал:
  • We play the game because we are allowed to be absurdly powerful given proper investment
  • The people who excel at Warframe tend to be particularly smart and usually wealthy

Both wrong.

1st in my personal case.

2nd in common sense.

And judging by how you spamming posts trying to convince lowlife scrubs in your superior truth I'd suggest you get sober first.

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2 hours ago, (XB1)DarknessZeref said:

I still have a ton of faith! They're doing a great job and most of their changes are solid, but the few are in the direction of what you're mentioning. They've been nerfing, but I have faith that they'll stop. Their concept of "balance" is a bit misguided, you can really tell technical people make all the calls. I'm still having fun! I just feel like it's only because I have EVERYTHING that I can switch SPECIFICALLY to what's fun, which is a bit of a frownie face

From my experience of roughly  4K in-game hours, the pinnacle of the fun factors and tremendous powers Tennos are equipped with is from 2017 to late 2018. From there, the fun factors of the game have been going down hill slowly but steadily with NON-STOP nerfs. I didn't think about this "technical" point of view. I think the direction of the game might be hijacked by technical people in DE, and these technical people have no love for the game nor do they know what made it feel so great about Warframe. Just watch those dev streams clips when some newer DE employees talk about  nerfs. It's very cold and slapping players in the faces. Every new nerf stultifies some players who then leave.  After hundreds of nerfs implemented in the game  for the sake of "balancing",  so many players have been driven out of the game. I think  that's why the player base is not growing at the same rate as other top rated games or even declining. 

I'd love DE to release a special version based on Warframe Updates from 2017 and 2018.

Edited by George_PPS
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6 hours ago, George_PPS said:

100% agree. Sadly, the game is on the track of becoming something that’s not warframe, constant nerfing, balancing for the mediocrity, destroying fun. The direction of the game is out of the touch and players like you and me are driven out. I had 4K plus in game hours because I enjoyed for what you described tremendously. DE is slowing killing the game and taking away the fun factors that made Warframe the game it was. 

I agree with you. I sometimes feel like they are trying to drive people away 

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7 hours ago, (XB1)DarknessZeref said:

There are 2 main points I believe the developers are missing in relation to the Warframe community

  • We play the game because we are allowed to be absurdly powerful given proper investment

POINT 1: Myself and everyone I speak to about Warframe have unanimous affection for the high range, high damage and high satisfaction style of combat. You can decimate hordes with a variety of warframe and weapon combinations which is just satisfying(For its own sake). Think about it this way, any time I get a new thing or launch a power I get a burst of dopamine. When I get on and see my Zenistar doesn't do anything, I've lost a dopamine stream and my perception of enjoying the game is significantly reduced. This is an effect we're seeing across the disciplines affected by each nerf and why veteran game players like myself ultimately stop playing one game or another- they "balance" everything to a point where getting anything is a hassle and finding what is enjoyable to experience turns into a Easter egg hunt instead of a symptom of game play. What matters isn't how much I kill or even what I kill, but the experience of doing so. The more you manipulate my experience of the game, the more significant and extreme my reaction. You could be enhancing the game for the bugs, glitches, fact that my clan logo appears on some flags and not others- type of things that I would LOVE. Rather, you're reducing things. Reducing things reduces me when I use it in game. Reducing me reduces my experience. Reducing my experience below a certain point causes me to drop the game no matter the game. We all love Warframe because it's epic on the scale of power compared to other games- give me an epic enemy, don't go against Warframe's value proposition in the marketplace. *cough cough DE SCOTT

 

 

 I do agree with most of this 1st point, but nerfs do have their place in this game, reducing power doesn`t necessarily mean reducing fun. For example, the issue of power creep, where certain equipment is literally so good that it negates every other that doesn`t stand up to it, in these cases I understand and agree in the use of nerfs, even though the game is centered around the power fantasy.

Something else I don`t agree with is your affirmation that the fun factor of warframe is completely dependent on the power fantasy feeling. When you say that Warframe is only fun for the power fantasy, and that they should move towards this kind of gameplay by not nerfing weapons and frames, you are overlooking the real reason why the power fantasy is fun in the first place. I may be speaking from a personal view, but I do believe that most of the satisfaction that occurs is not entirely a result from the killing of a bunch of guys, but from the preparation and execution of the killing. For example:

My favorite warframe is Mesa, and that`s mostly because of her 4th ability, which is basically two exalted pistols with aimbot, but this overpowered ability is not why I like this frame, it`s how the limitations that were set onto that ability create a fun gameplay loop. When you activate this 4th ability, you`re not able to move, making the ability kind of boring because of the lack of mobility, but what you can do to overcome this is: slide jump forward, activate the ability mid-air, and use bullet jump to float, and boom, you just got yourself an aimbot cheat for max payne, and it`s consintently the most fun thing I have ever done in this game, and depending on how you mod the exalted pistols, you can kill high level enemies in less than seconds, which also scratches an itch in my ocd filled brain. It`s the same thing they did with the Ember rework, they made her powerful but not without it`s limitations, and playing around those limitations in fun and creative ways is why the game is so fun to play for me, and probably to you too.

Tl:Dr

Nerfs aren`t inherently bad for the game, mostly because of power creep and how it takes away from fun factor by negating every other weapon or warframe that doesn`t compare to its standard.

I do agree that the power fantasy should be a focus for Warframe, but it shouldn`t be done by just making everything powerful af, the fun in gameplay doesn`t come just from the act of killing a bunch, but from what it takes to kill a bunch effectively. IMO It should be taken into account how to implement a fun gameplay loop into a weapon or frame, so that by doing well in that fun gameplay loop, you get rewarded with the power fantasy. With this in place, skill is at least minimally required, and still delivers the power fantasy. 

6 hours ago, (XB1)DarknessZeref said:

 

  • The people who excel at Warframe tend to be particularly smart and usually wealthy

POINT 2: Just last night I met a man playing Warframe (MR14) who works as a manager for a company that develops security software for public transportation systems. Some of his clients include the City of New York and LA to name 2. This is typical of high skill players I've met I mean one of my clan members (MR16) is a bodyguard in Atlanta who's done work for Jay Z, TI and other famous people along with deployments overseas. Personally, I own several businesses and appeared in several TV shows and podcasts speaking about financial literacy and empowering the next generation of professionals. Another clanmate (MR24) is an 18 year old guy who developed a software so impressive in school, he worked at IBM and now Lenovo all without a college degree. Another cool person I met has a graphic design company, so they began an alliance and offered free amazing logos to its members while being entirely reticent about their multi-million dollar earning year. What am I saying? We ain't dumb. We have money. When we break our silence as celebrities, moguls and generally cool people- we do so because we believe you'll listen. We respect your immense programming talent to have produced such an amazing game, it's time to respect our sentience as residents within this home you've created to accurately point out where the paint is chipping and when the A/C stops working. We have verbal conversations on a daily basis related to all of the tiny things you miss and all of the enhancements that we would love to see and how the game can be improved from a variety of creative perspectives. I post this to hopefully broaden your perspective about who you're serving and potentially incite the team to embrace the feedback received concerning so many swift and major changes. Ultimately I'm speaking to you as an investor. When I'm happy, I give you money. Go back into our accounts and see when you made us happy as a reference point for your bottom line. Feel free to push us out by refusing to listen, we become awfully comfortable game hopping when a development team is too strong-willed about their feelings for their own game and obstinate in the face of progression- which we don't think you are as evidenced by taking the time out to post at all. Please prove us right. 

So you`re saying that because you are wealthy and famous, and therefore smart, you should be listened to by DE more than everyone in this forum or anywhere else. And if DE continues to ingore your suggestions, you will stop investing in the game.

Idk if you`ve been around here for a while, but just to let you know, DE ignores a lot of feedback, and I don`t mean just the stupid feedback we see all the time, I mean really simple but effective fixes for trivial things that should already exist in the game. This has been going on for a while, and it reached a peak with the outright vocal denial from DE to fix a stupid oversight from the Kuva Lich system, they didn`t even have the decency to say "maybe" and turn it into a meme, they saw the negative feedback, and ignored it.

Just because you have more cash to throw at DE`s face doesn`t mean you will be listened to, or even have decent enough feedback for them to act on. 

Aside from all that, I hope you know why you come off sounding like a complete A****** in the entirety of your 2nd point. And that you don`t actually believe you should get special recognition in terms of feedback just because you spend more money in a free to play game, I`m assuming you wrote the OP without such a belief.

I really do hope that`s the case here.

Edited by Lightel03
Paragraphs were looking weird af
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