DE's questionable lRoadmap

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

The RJ gameplay in that demo clearly differs from what we got, though, so it's not even a question of what was told, but of what was shown, which is far more damning.

Off the top of my head:

• Players can fight in Railjack without getting shredded.
• Railjack is visibly connected to ground missions.
• Entirely separate teams can dynamically receive new objectives to contribute to Railjack missions.
• Boarding crew enemies aren't bullet sponges.
• There are more RJ missions besides merely fighting ships.
• There is strictly no mention of RNG-statted loot, or even stratified loot.
• The persistent resource sink took the form of temporary enhancements, rather than repairs.
• There is no resource-juggling for Railjack crew, who instead gets to participate much more actively in RJ missions.
• There's none of that Requiem nonsense when fighting the Kuva Lich.
• The Kuva Lich actually acquires the ability used to spawn it, and comments on it.
• Liches have multiple classes and specializations affecting how they invade the System and approach the player.

So effectively, the Railjack we saw is significantly more open, dynamic, and functional, and presents compelling incentives to the player that do not rely on artificially-induced grind. It also looked like it would genuinely connect the game together, which the current RJ is incapable of doing. It's not even that the roadmap changed, it's that DE clearly didn't deliver on what they'd set out to do, and so without any justification. DE clearly showed or announced one product, and delivered another. Given that the demo has nothing to do with reality, and by DE's own admittance was entirely staged, it is in fact a lie. The word may scare you, as with terms such as "promise" or "evidence", but the fact remains that DE produced that video with the intent to deceive its playerbase, regardless of what good intentions they may have had.

What about the Kingpin system as promised is similar to what we have now? I've elaborated on the differences already in a prior response to you here, so really, your whole paragraph of attempted rationalization does nothing to downplay the fact that we clearly did not get what was in that demo.

You have a really hard time understanding that what was showcased is what is planned for phase 3 and was never ever intended for phase 2, which is the phase we got now. The demo shows it all, liches, squad link and so on.

Also, ""Players can fight in Railjack without getting shredded". What? We can do that very well as it is in the version we have too. I've had no issues, be it on earth or in veil, getting shredded happens very rarely and is mostly due to lag from bad connection to the host. Most of your list is very odd aswell. Point 2, 3, 5 are for phase 3. The rest are based on what cannot be seen due to the systems not being finalized. None of it is actually in the video. There is no juggling of resources in the RJ we have either, if you are juggling resources you are likely not out of earth yet and probably think it is a good idea to invest in MK1 items aswell. The resource sink is the same in both systems, applying to repairs and all other things. Everything on the ship besides engine usage and turrests consume something that can be crafted through the forge with the right level on your engi. The reason requiem isnt in the video is because the system wasnt even final yet and likely had some other interaction for that, hence why the lich had been encountered 7 times in total and evolved 3 times aswell. Is whatever system they use there better or worse? We have no idea of knowing because it isnt showcased or described.

Also your whole comment about "strictly no mention of RNG-statted loot" is just mindblowing. "They didnt mention anything about it so they lied!" is what it sounds like. I mean, stop grasping for very very short straws. Heck, they didnt mention Shedu either, so obviously it shouldnt be in the game, neither should the sentient ship cos it wasnt showcased or mentioned. I mean, you hear how bad such reasoning sounds dont you?

All you bla-blaing regarding what we saw that isnt here is just you not keeping up with what has been discussed off and on regarding railjack for most of the year and finalized around 6 months ago. It isnt DEs fault if you decide to go with selective hearing and reading. Again, I say the words, phase three. Again, phase three. Has it sunk in yet? The only fact here is you having missed out on vital information and decide to complain about things missing that were covered and cleared up in said missed information. It is all on you, not DE. If those things wont come with phase 3, then yes, we are all very much in a position where we should complain about what is missing. But that is then, not now.

Well if you've answered regarding the differences they've likely been made up based on your expectations on it and not on what we've actually seen from it as the video shows. Because I cant find any differences aside from the showcased version not being finalized and being more barebones.

[Teridax68]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You have a really hard time understanding that what was showcased is what is planned for phase 3 and was never ever intended for phase 2, which is the phase we got now. The demo shows it all, liches, squad link and so on.

And you have a hard time understanding that there is strictly no guarantee that any of that will happen, especially given that DE have certainly not held up to what they announced so far. Similarly, you've chosen to deliberately ignore the fact that many of the fundamentals of Kuva Liches and Railjack as currently implemented would have to be completely redone to match the demo, as pointed out already.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, ""Players can fight in Railjack without getting shredded". What? We can do that very well as it is in the version we have too. I've had no issues, be it on earth or in veil, getting shredded happens very rarely and is mostly due to lag from bad connection to the host.

Good for you! Tell that to every other player who has pointed out the clear balance issues with Railjack that render Railjack combat unfeasible until a certain number of maxed-out items are acquired.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Most of your list is very odd aswell. Point 2, 3, 5 are for phase 3. The rest are based on what cannot be seen due to the systems not being finalized. None of it is actually in the video.

But the video did seem finalized, though, so you are consciously juggling between two very different modes of Railjack here, all while exercising more wishful thinking that you expect anyone to believe on... which reason, exactly?

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is no juggling of resources in the RJ we have either, if you are juggling resources you are likely not out of earth yet and probably think it is a good idea to invest in MK1 items aswell.

So there is juggling of resources, then, as you just mentioned. Again, the doublethink is strong here.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The resource sink is the same in both systems, applying to repairs and all other things.

This is blatantly false, as DE explicitly mentions a system of enhancements in the demo. You clearly have not even seen the video you are commenting on, despite having been presented it on express request.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Everything on the ship besides engine usage and turrests consume something that can be crafted through the forge with the right level on your engi. The reason requiem isnt in the video is because the system wasnt even final yet and likely had some other interaction for that, hence why the lich had been encountered 7 times in total and evolved 3 times aswell. Is whatever system they use there better or worse? We have no idea of knowing because it isnt showcased or described.

But there was no Requiem system described, yet the system presented was functional nonetheless. It thus stands to evidence that the Requiem grind was only slapped on later in an attempt to force more grinding into the Lich system.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also your whole comment about "strictly no mention of RNG-statted loot" is just mindblowing. "They didnt mention anything about it so they lied!" is what it sounds like. I mean, stop grasping for very very short straws.

Lying by omission is still lying. No part of that featured in the demo, and that is a major aspect of Railjack, not to mention its most controversial. It is you who are grasping at straws here by attempting to rationalize away clear contradictions.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Heck, they didnt mention Shedu either, so obviously it shouldnt be in the game, neither should the sentient ship cos it wasnt showcased or mentioned. I mean, you hear how bad such reasoning sounds dont you?

... both were showcased in prior dev streams and tweets, though? Your argument here is not even remotely true or coherent, to say nothing of how little it relates to the argument at hand.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

All you bla-blaing regarding what we saw that isnt here is just you not keeping up with what has been discussed off and on regarding railjack for most of the year and finalized around 6 months ago. It isnt DEs fault if you decide to go with selective hearing and reading.

So... where exactly were the changes discussed, then? Because I have in fact been following the game's development closely, as have many other players, and much of what was released still came across as unjustified.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Again, I say the words, phase three. Again, phase three. Has it sunk in yet? The only fact here is you having missed out on vital information and decide to complain about things missing that were covered and cleared up in said missed information. It is all on you, not DE. If those things wont come with phase 3, then yes, we are all very much in a position where we should complain about what is missing. But that is then, not now.

Yes, you do seem to wave around the term "phase three" as if it were a magical warding spell against reality, and DE's track record this year. Don't worry guys, all of what DE failed to do this year will be fixed in phase three! Just like how all of that bad writing in the later Game of Thrones seasons will be fixed in Season 8, and the new Star Wars trilogy with Rise of Skywalker... oh wait.

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well if you've answered regarding the differences they've likely been made up based on your expectations on it and not on what we've actually seen from it as the video shows. Because I cant find any differences aside from the showcased version not being finalized and being more barebones.

Ah, so my pointing out evidence of clear discrepancies between DE's announcements and reality is apparently invalidated just because you feel differently. How droll.

[MirageKnight]

 

3 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

But that is the problem: you are trying to convince me, or whoever else, that the content Warframe had this year was delivered "as promised", a claim I am contesting with evidence to support my point.

 

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

Ah, so my pointing out evidence of clear discrepancies between DE's announcements and reality is apparently invalidated just because you feel differently.

You're forgetting about something unfortunately.

Highly valued opinion / personal observation > Well crafted argument with verifiable evidence. Especially on these forums.

Edited December 30, 2019 by LascarCapable

[SneakyErvin]

37 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

And you have a hard time understanding that there is strictly no guarantee that any of that will happen, especially given that DE have certainly not held up to what they announced so far. Similarly, you've chosen to deliberately ignore the fact that many of the fundamentals of Kuva Liches and Railjack as currently implemented would have to be completely redone to match the demo, as pointed out already.

Good for you! Tell that to every other player who has pointed out the clear balance issues with Railjack that render Railjack combat unfeasible until a certain number of maxed-out items are acquired.

But the video did seem finalized, though, so you are consciously juggling between two very different modes of Railjack here, all while exercising more wishful thinking that you expect anyone to believe on... which reason, exactly?

So there is juggling of resources, then, as you just mentioned. Again, the doublethink is strong here.

This is blatantly false, as DE explicitly mentions a system of enhancements in the demo. You clearly have not even seen the video you are commenting on, despite having been presented it on express request.

But there was no Requiem system described, yet the system presented was functional nonetheless. It thus stands to evidence that the Requiem grind was only slapped on later in an attempt to force more grinding into the Lich system.

Lying by omission is still lying. No part of that featured in the demo, and that is a major aspect of Railjack, not to mention its most controversial. It is you who are grasping at straws here by attempting to rationalize away clear contradictions.

... both were showcased in prior dev streams and tweets, though? Your argument here is not even remotely true or coherent, to say nothing of how little it relates to the argument at hand.

So... where exactly were the changes discussed, then? Because I have in fact been following the game's development closely, as have many other players, and much of what was released still came across as unjustified.

Yes, you do seem to wave around the term "phase three" as if it were a magical warding spell against reality, and DE's track record this year. Don't worry guys, all of what DE failed to do this year will be fixed in phase three! Just like how all of that bad writing in the later Game of Thrones seasons will be fixed in Season 8, and the new Star Wars trilogy with Rise of Skywalker... oh wait.

Ah, so my pointing out evidence of clear discrepancies between DE's announcements and reality is apparently invalidated just because you feel differently. How droll.

DE have held up their end though. You need to stop moving the goalpost over to the "what-if?" area. We are discussing the roadmap and what we have now aswell as what we've gotten info about over the year compared to what we have now. If they dont deliver later on with the intended phase 3 it is another story and another argument to be taken then, when we know. Please stop using the word fact when you are ment to say "in my opinion". Your opinion is not fact and that is a fact. None of the fundamentals would need a rework, they are after all fundamentals i.e a foundation. What needs to be done is have things added. If things were in need to be redone then the lich system would have to be watered down even more to fit with what was shown, which was just a pointlessly long encounter with less variety that what we have now, that is what the video shows. You also fail to touch on what needs to be redone in your opinion. It would be very easy to present a few changes that should be done to fit with what you somehow saw in the demo. Things that would be actual improvements.

Those people are probably in need of better builds if they die that easily in RJ. Since it is very much a non issue for anyone built to handle the rest of the game. But this also explains your opinion on melee 3.0 and how it is worse than the old with less viable builds. In short, build better.

The video showed what the finalized version is intended to hold. That is all, that doesnt mean it is feature complete, because if it was it would be released back then. The lich was obviously lacking alot, squad sync was basic just to show what it may look like etc. It was a demo i.e demonstration.

And no, there is no juggling of resources. As I said, when you get out of earth everything of that becomes rather pointless and in low level mission you shouldnt ever need to enter your forge aside from hitting refine. Juggling resources would mean that there was a dilemma, a situation where you'd need to decide on if you can afford it or not. You arent juggling ammo or energy in normal missions right?

What they refer to as enhancements is very obscure. They can refer to flux powers, ordenance or artillery... or the tactical powers that ended up costing nothing. We do have several enhancements that are resource sinks. Heck, they could mean avionics, armaments and components aswell since they are material sinks and enhance your ship alot.

The reason there was no requiem described was that there had already been 6 attempts on the lich, we dont know what other system was in place there, obviously something that works similar since the number of encounters was fairly equal to a lich take down on live. So obviously there was a success/failure system.

If they didnt mention how they planned to solve loot it isnt the same as lying. If they had loot plans ready at the time we would have had the system in our laps shortly after tennocon and not 6 months down the road. You are grasping for extremely tiny straws now.

Sure we were showcased an arm cannon long long ago. Still, it wasnt mentioned or showed in the demo, so obviously it shouldnt even be released now. Because if they release something they dont tell you about they lie according to you. Or does that only apply when it comes to things you dont like? Cant have it both ways, it is either or. So nope, no sent ship and no shedu!

Apparently you havent been following the game if you've missed the part of them saying RJ will be split up in 3 phases. It was somewhere back during summer, not very long after tennocon, like early august or so.

No not some magic term. Just a little heads up that it is pointless to rage now when it all hasnt even been released yet and it is all according to their plan for it. As I said, if it fails and falls at phase 3 we all have a right to get upset. But currently they havent broken any promises since they've given nonn aside from the staggered release of empyrean. Which currently is going according to plans.

You still havent pointed out the actual differences though. As I said, I cant see the differences in the video that you calimed had obvious ones. All I see in that demo is a very bland lich and that says alot when we consider how bland the live liches are. It sounds more like you want them to use the lich system (what little we see of it) from the video on basic principals and not based on its actual design that we see (the lack off). I mean, you do have your lich from the video in RJ, just go do the assassination mission and you'll get to fight a boss with just as varied abilities as the lich you crave from the video. /s

 

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

the fact of the madder is, if they r going to make a working demo, only fking show whats real and works, instead of getting us hyped for something that will never exist

the fact that the demo had a mostly functioning game mode, that  could transition to from openworlds and back, ontop of liches being part of the system, and it showing corpus first

not a single thing of it was real, and if it was,why the hell did they scrap the whole thing and give us the buggy unfun, grindy greneer mess we got? we got none of what was shown in the demo, outside of the ship model, and we had an entire update just so show off the model and couldnt even attempt to use it

i dont care if u think its fine, because to most its not, and its bs, it took year and a half, AFTER the first demo, dont show us a demo that isnt real in engine gameplay ffs

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[0_The_F00l]

Man this topic is getting unnecessarily longwinded.

A road map is not a promise to deliver, it is more of a willingness to attempt certain actions, with some logical basis.

Not sure if DE actually thought anything through though, they do suck at time and resource management as is evident from their track record, 

But that does not mean DE cannot be held accountable for what it actually did (or did not) do.

You cannot tie two cups with a string and say you have provided a telephone and call it a day. 

DE really needs to stop with the minimum viable product mentality,

The lich system is not only buggy, it is incomplete, poorly implemented and is a delay tactic which is greatly disliked  for its multiple level RNG loop. An absolute sham of a content update which is changed in the last moments due to some internal call, the voice lines, actions, effects indicate it is not what was originally planned. It's not the kingpin system, it's a different thing, so that too is missed. 

The current Railjack system was rushed out to get players during the holiday season, filled with even more delay tactics and RNG and rarity walls, not to mention it is exactly another island when it was showcased as something that bridges islands - this I would say is the one truly disappointing realisation for me, maybe it will change over time, but since it not full the road map has not actually been met. 

Melee rework is still not complete, though it is acceptable enough in its current state. 

The frames were promised and delivered - the like or dislike of them is a different issue. 

Exploiter was also delivered well enough I think. 

New player experience (that cinematic that was released caused quite some hype) is not here, don't even see them talking about it, guess they gave up already. So that is missed. 

I don't know what weight age they gave. But purely by line items, I would say they missed half. 

I am disappointed though, in a lot of things. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

22 hours ago, (PS4)Hopper_Orouk said:

I'm not going to work under a half cooked company with poor decisions and roadmap plans that gets a holiday every day

I'm not going to judge from your posts here like you did with mine...but i'll just say you have no idea how out of order this company is

If you are using their roadmap as a litmus for their performance/success... I don't think you do either. No offense.

DE's only real error in regard to their roadmap was in releasing one to begin with...

Development milestones change constantly and program management is predicated on a bunch of separate threads of development to begin with....When one is setback( for any reason) they all can be.

Most companies won't release a roadmap like that to the public unless they are positive that development has reached a stage where it's down to testing, tuning, and polish.

Think of it this way...BioWare also had a roadmap for Anthem and managed to get about 5% of theirs released.

That's not to say DE is better but that their goals were more realistic for 2019 than they have been in years past. 

 

[MirageKnight]

On 2019-12-30 at 1:32 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

A road map is not a promise to deliver, it is more of a willingness to attempt certain actions, with some logical basis.

Agreed, but unfortunately it does tend to promote fairly reasonable expectations from people. If you show off gameplay that has certain new things, people are going to expect those things unless told otherwise.

On 2019-12-30 at 1:32 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

The lich system is not only buggy, it is incomplete, poorly implemented and is a delay tactic which is greatly disliked  for its multiple level RNG loop. An absolute sham of a content update which is changed in the last moments due to some internal call, the voice lines, actions, effects indicate it is not what was originally planned. It's not the kingpin system, it's a different thing, so that too is missed. 

I think it might be more accurate to say that the Lich Nemesis system was slated to be part of / derived from the Kingpin system. IIRC, Kingpin was supposed to have nemesis enemies for each faction and that a certain dojo room would allow you to plan attacks aimed at stopping them. Kuva Liches seem to be one part of that, but were redone at the 11th hour.

Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken about this.

Otherwise, I agree with you.

On 2019-12-30 at 1:32 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

The current Railjack system was rushed out to get players during the holiday season, filled with even more delay tactics and RNG and rarity walls, not to mention it is exactly another island when it was showcased as something that bridges islands - this I would say is the one truly disappointing realisation for me, maybe it will change over time, but since it not full the road map has not actually been met. 

Pretty much.

On 2019-12-30 at 1:32 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

Melee rework is still not complete, though it is acceptable enough in its current state. 

It still needs a fair bit of fine tuning though. Heavy Attacks being triggered by combos is a big deal for some people for example. Aside from some wonky combos and other niggling issues, I'd say that melee's in a somewhat better place now compared to several months ago.

On 2019-12-30 at 1:32 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

New player experience (that cinematic that was released caused quite some hype) is not here, don't even see them talking about it, guess they gave up already. So that is missed. 

As a player that's been around since 2013, this doesn't affect me. However, as a clan warlord, I've seen a lot of new players just flat out abandon ship despite the help and tips I've given them...and they've all said the same thing. The grind is tiring, getting mastery is a chore due to the need to build and rank up lots of gear, which requires a fair number of slots, etc., and the fact that learning things about the game isn't very intuitive, is hidden away, or requires a third party site to figure out.

Edited December 31, 2019 by MirageKnight
Spelling.

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

2019s road map was to just build hype, it was never realistic just like their LIVE DEMO... which turned out to be mostly fake. To me this hurts my ability to believe anything I’m seeing at a tennocion go forward...

[MirageKnight]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

To me this hurts my ability to believe anything I’m seeing at a tennocion go forward...

Gaming conventions are PR events specifically tailored to generate hype and interest in the game. Carefully controlled reveals of planned upcoming content is all part of the hype-building.

Tennocon is no exception.

[Teridax68]

On 2019-12-30 at 5:50 PM, SneakyErvin said:

DE have held up their end though. You need to stop moving the goalpost over to the "what-if?" area. We are discussing the roadmap and what we have now aswell as what we've gotten info about over the year compared to what we have now. If they dont deliver later on with the intended phase 3 it is another story and another argument to be taken then, when we know.

This rather hilariously self-contradictory set of statements belies the projection in your accusations: it is you here who are arguing on hypotheticals, claiming that DE will somehow fix everything in the upcoming phase 3 (just like they fixed all of melee in Phase 2... oh wait), while I'm pointing out the concrete evidence we have with the game's existing content. It is thus you who are shifting the goalposts to this argument by trying to displace DE's burden to fix their 2019 content in some 2020 update. We are indeed discussing the roadmap, what we have now, and the info we've gotten, and so far what we've received has not matched up to the roadmap or the info we've gotten. QED.

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Please stop using the word fact when you are ment to say "in my opinion". Your opinion is not fact and that is a fact.

It is a fact that the Kuva Lich system has received widespread and heavy criticism, as has Empyrean, as can be verified on these very forums. It is a fact that it takes a dojo, millions of credits, and various different resources in quantities of thousands to unlock a Railjack, which itself is contextualized under the late-game plot thread of dealing with the Sentient. It is a fact that Warframe has dropped off of Steam's top 10 most played games since The Old Blood. Unlike you, I am not arguing from mere opinion here, as I am supporting my points with actual facts, real things that can be objectively and independently confirmed. The only one who appears to be misusing the term "fact" here is you.

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None of the fundamentals would need a rework, they are after all fundamentals i.e a foundation.

This makes absolutely no sense. If a foundation is bad, it needs to be reworked all the same, it's just difficult to do if it's a feature upon which an entire portion of game content is built. You are implicitly admitting here that a flawed foundation dooms the final product to be deeply flawed as well, which does not bode well for Kuva Liches or Railjack unless those fundamentals are addressed.

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What needs to be done is have things added. If things were in need to be redone then the lich system would have to be watered down even more to fit with what was shown, which was just a pointlessly long encounter with less variety that what we have now, that is what the video shows.

See, this is what actually qualifies as arguing from opinion: your sole argument here is that you don't think DE should make the Lich system like what was shown in the demo, because you personally dislike it. You have no facts or evidence to support your claim, and in fact you are outright lying here by claiming that the system shown in the demo is somehow less complex or capable of variety than what we haven now, given that the Liches in the demo had classes (which live Liches don't), can dynamically steal and use the player's abilities (which live Liches can't do either, as their kits are entirely prefabricated), present much more complex missions (i.e. the capital ship assault we saw), and can grow in power organically with consequences on their equipment (Liches currently have no equipment outside of their weapon, which does not change).

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You also fail to touch on what needs to be redone in your opinion. It would be very easy to present a few changes that should be done to fit with what you somehow saw in the demo. Things that would be actual improvements.

I have strictly no need to elaborate on the details of what I think could be done to improve Liches on this thread, it is enough to point out that there already exists a model players liked, while also pointing to stuff that players dislike which should likely be removed. If you'd like, we could discuss what I think should be the model for Kuva Liches, but the relevant portion of this discussion is that the Liches we got were nothing like what were shown.

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Those people are probably in need of better builds if they die that easily in RJ. Since it is very much a non issue for anyone built to handle the rest of the game. But this also explains your opinion on melee 3.0 and how it is worse than the old with less viable builds. In short, build better.

People have already pointed out at length which builds to go for with RJ or melee, with a very high degree of consistency, as itself is easily verifiable just by looking at threads on Railjack loot or the like. Pretending like you're somehow better than everyone else here only further highlights how you have no idea what you're talking about.

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The video showed what the finalized version is intended to hold. That is all, that doesnt mean it is feature complete, because if it was it would be released back then. The lich was obviously lacking alot, squad sync was basic just to show what it may look like etc. It was a demo i.e demonstration.

There is a difference between a demo lacking certain secondary features (and even without those, it provided a sound minimum viable product), and a demo completely lacking core features subsequently added without warning, while also showing core features that are completely absent.

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And no, there is no juggling of resources. As I said, when you get out of earth everything of that becomes rather pointless and in low level mission you shouldnt ever need to enter your forge aside from hitting refine. Juggling resources would mean that there was a dilemma, a situation where you'd need to decide on if you can afford it or not. You arent juggling ammo or energy in normal missions right?

You are literally telling me resource juggling exists right as you attempt to deny its existence. This is ludicrous. Do you know the Forge exists?

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What they refer to as enhancements is very obscure. They can refer to flux powers, ordenance or artillery... or the tactical powers that ended up costing nothing. We do have several enhancements that are resource sinks. Heck, they could mean avionics, armaments and components aswell since they are material sinks and enhance your ship alot.

Nice try, but no. DE clearly mentioned temporary enhancements to our equipment, which is distinct from equipment that needs to be repaired just to not break. 

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The reason there was no requiem described was that there had already been 6 attempts on the lich, we dont know what other system was in place there, obviously something that works similar since the number of encounters was fairly equal to a lich take down on live. So obviously there was a success/failure system.

Have you fought even a single Lich? Because their Requiem shows even during the last and successful attempt against them. No such system existed, and the system DE had talked about then was one where the Lich would resurrect themselves after getting killed. Even their current voice lines point to this, even though they're nonsensical given that we only kill them once before permanently getting rid of them, which further highlights how the Liches we got are markedly different from what was initially shown.

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If they didnt mention how they planned to solve loot it isnt the same as lying. If they had loot plans ready at the time we would have had the system in our laps shortly after tennocon and not 6 months down the road. You are grasping for extremely tiny straws now.

It is you who are grasping at straws here, as you are desperately trying to downplay the fact that DE foisted random stats on loot with these recent updates, which they'd never announced previously, and which did not go down well with the playerbase. There is a conspicuous lack of RNG-statted loot in the demo, which nonetheless showed players obtaining other kinds of loot, so once again, that addition was deceptive. Moreover, how would loot be the only obstacle, or even the biggest one? You're fabricating this imaginary narrative where DE apparently stalled on Railjack for half a year just because they had to figure out slapping RNG onto item stats, based on... what evidence, exactly?

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Sure we were showcased an arm cannon long long ago. Still, it wasnt mentioned or showed in the demo, so obviously it shouldnt even be released now. Because if they release something they dont tell you about they lie according to you. Or does that only apply when it comes to things you dont like? Cant have it both ways, it is either or. So nope, no sent ship and no shedu!

This is also grasping at straws, because DE did announce both in prior media, and had valid spoiler-related reasons not to declare the Sentient ship or Shedu in the main post.

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Apparently you havent been following the game if you've missed the part of them saying RJ will be split up in 3 phases. It was somewhere back during summer, not very long after tennocon, like early august or so.

I'm well aware we still have a major phase of Railjack additions left, but that does not prevent the fact that what we've received is clearly not what was promised, not simply because a lot of content is lacking (which would be fine if it were the only problem), but because the content we got is fundamentally different from the hype-generating piece of media we were shown. I'm not claiming Phase 3 will never happen, I'm merely pointing out Phase 3 will not address Railjack's current issues unless it implements some changes to its fundamentals, namely the way players unlock Railjack, and the progression system within. You, by contrast, seem to be telling me that it will, all while simultaneously insisting that these fundamentals cannot change.

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No not some magic term. Just a little heads up that it is pointless to rage now when it all hasnt even been released yet and it is all according to their plan for it. As I said, if it fails and falls at phase 3 we all have a right to get upset. But currently they havent broken any promises since they've given nonn aside from the staggered release of empyrean. Which currently is going according to plans.

So, effectively, you are arguing on pure hypotheticals, claiming that all feedback is invalid until some magic future update fixes all of our problems, as if that ever happened before. Once again, this is magical thinking, and you dismissing valid feedback for no valid or concrete reason. The Warframe we are criticizing is the Warframe we have now, the finished product so far that the developers not only expect us to play, but pay money for, in this particular case through repair drones and RJ resources (which, by the way, has also been hotly criticized). It is thus entirely valid to point out that DE failed to meet expectations with this release.

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You still havent pointed out the actual differences though. As I said, I cant see the differences in the video that you calimed had obvious ones. All I see in that demo is a very bland lich and that says alot when we consider how bland the live liches are. It sounds more like you want them to use the lich system (what little we see of it) from the video on basic principals and not based on its actual design that we see (the lack off). I mean, you do have your lich from the video in RJ, just go do the assassination mission and you'll get to fight a boss with just as varied abilities as the lich you crave from the video. /s

I literally listed the differences above, in a post you replied to, so your statement here is also a lie. Once again, you are arguing entirely from personal opinion, dismissing independently verifiable evidence simply because you feel differently: for instance, you keep calling the Lich in the demo "a very bland lich" ... based on what facts? Which objective arguments? The fundamental problem with your argumentation is that not only is it not right, it's not even wrong, as it is based upon no concrete or objective premise, nor any logical reasoning, only your personal appreciation of certain bits of content that frequently isn't even grounded in the content itself. 

In the end, everything I've said can be and has been tied to something DE has actually said or done, and thus can be confirmed to be true, whereas you have so far only produced falsehoods or statements with no possible truth value. You feeling strongly about something does not make that thing true, and ultimately your statements are ultimately harmful to the generation of constructive feedback, as you've only bogged down discussion and added noise to drown out valid criticisms that could be used to improve Warframe.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

If you are using their roadmap as a litmus for their performance/success... I don't think you do either. No offense.

DE's only real error in regard to their roadmap was in releasing one to begin with...

Development milestones change constantly and program management is predicated on a bunch of separate threads of development to begin with....When one is setback( for any reason) they all can be.

Most companies won't release a roadmap like that to the public unless they are positive that development has reached a stage where it's down to testing, tuning, and polish.

Think of it this way...BioWare also had a roadmap for Anthem and managed to get about 5% of theirs released.

That's not to say DE is better but that their goals were more realistic for 2019 than they have been in years past. 

 

True. As I stated much earlier, DE likes to keep the players informed and involved. I've never heard of a company that places that much transparency into their product so I give kudos to them...but I also hope they understand the challenges along with that. Misinterpretation can be dangerous, toxic and counterproductive, as very visibly shown on this thread. If other game companies were to view this thread, they'd be very wary of sharing anything and would just release content quickly after a short period of advertising. I personally enjoyed seeing their roadmaps, works in progress and concepts but, if the community is going to not understand how those work, then I'd rather them do without them and save the headache.

[cmacq]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

True. As I stated much earlier, DE likes to keep the players informed and involved. I've never heard of a company that places that much transparency into their product so I give kudos to them...but I also hope they understand the challenges along with that. Misinterpretation can be dangerous, toxic and counterproductive, as very visibly shown on this thread. If other game companies were to view this thread, they'd be very wary of sharing anything and would just release content quickly after a short period of advertising. I personally enjoyed seeing their roadmaps, works in progress and concepts but, if the community is going to not understand how those work, then I'd rather them do without them and save the headache.

Especially if it's going to cause a certain sector of the community who don't understand roadmaps to accuse them of lying and being lazy...

[fish_wet]

40 minutes ago, cmacq said:

Especially if it's going to cause a certain sector of the community who don't understand roadmaps to accuse them of lying and being lazy...

Not sure about lying , however the reality is pretty much self explanatory.....

1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

I personally enjoyed seeing their roadmaps, works in progress and concepts but, if the community is going to not understand how those work, then I'd rather them do without them and save the headache.

Saying that people do not understand roadmaps is being in denial.

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, (PS4)GEN-Son_17 said:

True. As I stated much earlier, DE likes to keep the players informed and involved.

I guess...

I've been here a long time now and the devs were a bit more active in the past generally. That said, longtime players here already know that anything that gets said by the Devs is aspirational until Steve brands it with a update and the date of that update is generally TBA regardless.

I think it's a shame that the majority of nuggets we get from the devs nowadays has to come from their personal social media accounts...even though I do understand why.

 

21 minutes ago, cmacq said:

Especially if it's going to cause a certain sector of the community who don't understand roadmaps to accuse them of lying and being lazy...

That certain sector of the community would argue about the condition and quality of toast....I'm not even kidding.

It's almost like Gordon Ramsay made 300 separate Warframe accounts and posts daily on all of them.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

I think they simply bit off more then they could  chew and if you look at what they really want to accomplish with RailJack, we haven't received the whole picture yet. 

Plus you still have the Corpus ship tileset rework, another Orb Mother fight, Squad link, Corpus Lichs to add to The New War update( Its sounds more like a world tier update then a "quest") and Duvri and the next Nightwave, Plus that Stalker Syndicate that was mentioned a while back....they have ALOT going on. 

PLUS they also mentioned Raids in the last devstream, which sounds to be apart of Railjack and if done right, would be awesome in that mode. 

Personally I think theres alot to look forward to, it's not perfect or sometimes ideal, but the one thing that I really liked from DE from this year: They did a stream where it was about the actual launch of the update. 

I didn't think it was that bad a year, RailJacks out, even as buggy as it is: I'm having a great time with it. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by (XB1)Cram Duahcim

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

I mean, it happens. I tell my friends I'll go out on Monday and change my mind by Wednesday cause I'm too tired.

You shouldn't actually expect everyone to just do exactly what they say lol. 

Whole worlds built on lies.

[bananacat89]

My guess is they ran into some forks in the road and dead ends. Took a few wrong turns and got lost in roadmap limbo. They ironically pulled a Nomansky and gave us some half arsed , half finished buggy glimpse at what could have been.   Only thing we can hope for is they correct this mess like that game did. They will have to work extra hard to regain the trust of their customers after this. 2019 was not exactly a year to remember for Warframe. Wisp was awesome. The rest all kinda sucked. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

7 hours ago, bananacat89 said:

My guess is they ran into some forks in the road and dead ends. Took a few wrong turns and got lost in roadmap limbo. They ironically pulled a Nomansky and gave us some half arsed , half finished buggy glimpse at what could have been.   Only thing we can hope for is they correct this mess like that game did. They will have to work extra hard to regain the trust of their customers after this. 2019 was not exactly a year to remember for Warframe. Wisp was awesome. The rest all kinda sucked. 

You must be talking about BioWare...

The only fundamental difference to Warframe this year is the addition of RNG to our regularly scheduled RNG.

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Snippety snap long quote goes zap!

I'm arguing regarding what we have and what has been said to happen when. That isnt hypothetiical. You are bashing them on tings they havent even planned on yet. You are bashing phase 3 in phase 2. Now that is hypthetical. You are criticizing phase 2 based on phase 3. Phase 2 is in reality inline with what phase 2 was going to be, so it is according to play. They may screw up phase 3, but it is pointless to say they screwed up phase 3 now just because it wasnt part of phase 2, which it was never intended to be in the first place. 

No one is arguing that the Kuva system is bad. What I'm arguing is that you claim that the demo showed something so very different, which it didnt, and that you say it is fact that the fundamentals need a massive changes to be inline with what the demo showed. Which is also false because there are no differences to be seen except for the lich popping up in a railjack mission. So yeah, the fact is the lich system is criticized and rightfully so. What isnt fact is that you say it needs a full rework to be implemented in phase 3 when there are no actual difference between the demo and the lich system we have. And you are begging for the lich system in the demo, so you more or less want what we have now, but added into railjack. As for the RJ requirements, it was known from the start that it was going to be a clan project. It is also not a fact that it has dropped of off steams top 10, it is like all other top 10 games, dropping in and out constantly throughout the day. But now you are straying from the topic aswell. It is also odd that WF is doing so bad while still being the #1 topseller aswell according to Steam. I've also never used the word fact, except regarding that it is a fact that it is your opinion. So nice try.

So you say the foundation is bad. Yet you want the same foundation from the demo. Nice logic.

Yeesh if you are gonna sum up my post in quote lumps atleast lump together the parts that connect so you dont need to say the same thing twice. Again you repeat the differences between demo and live, yet they are nowhere to be seen. Do point out where you saw classes or any ability actually being stole or used besides as a flavor text. I mean, it would be nice to actually see it. We kinda have lich classes here aswel and stolen powers. Though stealing near 40-160 powers or something would be tricky. so instead they have base power classes, rooted in which frame that turn them. What specific classes did the liches in the demo have? They also didnt steal any abilities in the demo. The lich mainly seen had a power from Volt, not much unlike how they get an electrical themed kit from Volt in the live system. And the capital ship assault we saw is the assassination mission we have, nothing different from it except that they showed squad link in order to get inside iirc. And those are things coming in the final product. And where did you see these growth mechanics on the lich? Nowhere in the actual gameplay.

Again, it is the exact same model from what we saw in the demo aside from some arbitrary numbers that werent actually explained. So it seems like you want no changes at all.

If they build correctly there should be no problem. I've got zero issues on ground or in space, I've ran into no issues with other peoples RJs either. I've ran about 100 missions or something and I think I've failed uhm 2 if you dont count the 2 with bugs that forced me to quit out early on. I also cant remember the last time I had to actually repair something frequently in a mission. That is also all done in pugs. So the problem people have cant be too common if pugs manage that well in Veil. I also havent min-maxed anything, run unrivened melee and lack some of the better items for avionics and I'm not even a stellar player. Yeah RJ balance is in such a mess and melee is so weak. /s

The reason the demo showed a finalized version that is different from what we have is because it was never intended to be part of this release. I'm also having a hard time seeing that dysfunctional railjack you seem to experience, nor does it feel rushed. It had some bugs at start, but those were quickly fixed and it is currently a very well done mode, although lacking in content diversity, but it is what I'd expect from a first iteration release. And the demo was likely not a faked fabrication, it just happened to be optimized for the showcase at the time, instead of trying to be optimized for several different possible rig setups across the globe with fluctuating connection between hosts and clients.

I'm not saying resource juggling exsists, I'm saying it doesnt exsist because you dont need to juggle resources. It is a learning issue if you somehow run into a situation where you feel you need to juggle resources for some off reason during a mission.

What uhm items do we need to repair so they dont break? What are you even talking about? We do have several enhancements on our RJs to use in mission, some cost resources other have CDs. I assume their intent was to have tactical skills costing resources too, but they stopped the resource use at omni, ordenance, flux and artillery, making the enhancement buffs free. I'm not trying to "muddle" anything. I'm just saying they may have ment this or that. But it is also kinda funny, you rage on about some resource juggling then rage about enhancements not also costing resources. I mean what? "This whole thing needs me to juggle resources! Bah add more resources costs!". I get the feeling you arent really sure what you want.

I've fought plenty of liches, you failed to understand what I wrote. I wrote "we dont know what other system ws in place there". It has been a similar system because it had been encountred 6 times with 3 level increases, so there has been a similar success/fail system that they've played around with. It might have been 100% RNG for all we know where you just stab it and 50/50 it succeeds or fails. If you fail it levels, if it succeeds you are one step closer to defeating it, after 3 successes you can finaly kill it. That would add up with the number of levels and encounters. 1 = fail, 2 = success, 3 = fail, 4 = success, 5 = fail, 6 = success, 7 = vanquish. 3 fails = 3 levels, 3 success = kill unlock, 7th attempt = vanquish.

Loot is usually finalized last, especially for new modes when they know what the balance will require. There was no lying about it because nothing was said and developers are allowed to use placeholder items for things that are yet not finalized. Lying would be saying that the railjack equipment will be just like archgun or frame weapons and then add what we have now, which is based on rng stats, isnt modable, doesnt have any indivicual capacity, cannot be formed, cannot be mastered etc. But that is something that they've never implied so they cant really have lied either. It is a silly accusation really. I mean, really lowest of the lowest ways to dev bash. And it is probably also a reportable offense.

Who did it fail the expecations for? Not me since I quite enjoy a new way of grinding items. It is a breath of fresh air since it isnt the same in any way. "Deceptively changing a product" get over yourself please.

As I said previously, the reason it is different is because the media shown is the final intent of empyrean while what we have is the introduction to it to solve bugs and balance before it effects a wider part of the systems in the game. More focus on RJ specific bugs instead of having to find possible bugs that may be unrelated to the RJ system. There are also zero issue with unlocking the RJ. It is ment to be clan centered endgame content, the costs are very low if you are actually endgame ready. Not everything needs to cater to new players. The one thing I actually had to farm were the few new resources (without cheesing as a RJ crewman) and getting the argon. New players will breeze through it since they can snatch the new resources while grinding their captain level as a crewman in RJ. So they'll be ahead of us when their RJ is ready with armaments, components, avionics and levels waiting. I'm not saying the fundamentals cant change, I'm saying there is no reason to change them since we've all gone through the same hoops in the end.

Yes, feedback based on what wasnt in by intention isnt valid feedback. It is redundant because most of the thing are likely already on the table to be implemented. Feedback should fall on the things we can currently experience in RJ, like balance, loot, bugs and so on. You have the full right to dislike the RNG loot, or feel that the mobs are too hard etc. But you should likely be fair about it and not base your feedback regarding it on bad builds, still being in earth or saturn proxima and so on (not saying you are). Just as you shouldnt base your feedback on a demo video of things you see as missing when they are already intended to be released later on. I'm curious to how far you've actually progressed in empyrean. Have you been taxied, have you gone with your own ship, have you been a crewman, have you tried to gear your ship and so on. Because we are experiencing two widely different empyrean systems.

The bland lich view comes from it being bland and nothing else. I see no specific skill use, I see no specific class use, I see a level 3 lich dancing around getting shot at by a peashooter while doing little in return. Can bland take any other form? On live I atleast have to make sure to not get him by things, keep track of where it might teleport, avoid getting grabbed and be careful so I (or others) dont get rad procced. What I see in the demo is just the ordinary captain from the assassination objective, nothing else. I cant really tell it is a lich if it wasnt for the infomercial bla-bla at the right hand of the screen i.e the corrupted vor cosplay-lite drama. I think you also missed my /s at the end of the "varied abilities" comment, you know, the sign for sarcasm. Neither of them have varied abilities, that is my point.

 

 

[Aggh]

18 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

It is a fact that the Kuva Lich system has received widespread and heavy criticism, as has Empyrean, as can be verified on these very forums

~95% of the player base doesn't even bother with the forums.  Assuming the entire player base is the same as a vocal angry minority on the forums has always been silly.  Reacting to forum rage is why DE has yet to actually make a real dent on new player experience.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Aggh

[Teridax68]

On 2019-12-31 at 2:59 PM, SneakyErvin said:

I'm arguing regarding what we have and what has been said to happen when. That isnt hypothetiical.

That is the very definition of hypothetical, as you have just admitted to basing your arguments on stuff that has been promised, but not released. You seem to have this rather strange double standard here where, when DE announces something but doesn't deliver, it was apparently never meant to be taken seriously, but when DE announces something yet hasn't delivered yet, it's apparently totally going to happen exactly as declared.

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You are bashing them on tings they havent even planned on yet. You are bashing phase 3 in phase 2. Now that is hypthetical. You are criticizing phase 2 based on phase 3. Phase 2 is in reality inline with what phase 2 was going to be, so it is according to play. They may screw up phase 3, but it is pointless to say they screwed up phase 3 now just because it wasnt part of phase 2, which it was never intended to be in the first place. 

This is false, as I am bashing Phase 2 on Phase 2 alone here. As already stated, the issue with Railjack is not simply its lack of content, but fundamental problems with its loot, progression and balance, all of which stemmed from features that weren't in the demo. Simply adding more content will not fix these issues, so the only way Phase 3 would fix them is by undoing additions made in Phase 2, which would only further highlight the mistakes DE made in their current content releases. Unlike you, I am not talking about hypotheticals, as I am basing my assessment here on the state of the game that currently exists, without factoring in some magic future update that will supposedly make everything perfect.

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No one is arguing that the Kuva system is bad. What I'm arguing is that you claim that the demo showed something so very different, which it didnt, and that you say it is fact that the fundamentals need a massive changes to be inline with what the demo showed. Which is also false because there are no differences to be seen except for the lich popping up in a railjack mission. So yeah, the fact is the lich system is criticized and rightfully so. What isnt fact is that you say it needs a full rework to be implemented in phase 3 when there are no actual difference between the demo and the lich system we have. And you are begging for the lich system in the demo, so you more or less want what we have now, but added into railjack.

But this is also clearly false, as the numerous core differences between the Lich system from the demo and what we have now have already been listed here, namely the Lich's self-customization (i.e. Lich classes and the player's own abilities in the demo, as opposed to a prefab kit in live), its evolution (independently and with tangible material gains in the demo, purely through player encounters and more stats in live), its resurrections (multiple in the demo and the voice lines in the current game, literally just once on live), and the method to end it (a climactic HQ assault in the demo, the Requiem system in live). Kuva Liches in the demo were depicted as this enemy that would hound the player over an extremely long period of time and operate largely independently of them, requiring intervention to prevent them from becoming too strong, and multiple kills before some final death. Meanwhile, the Liches we have now do absolutely nothing except tax the player and wait for Thralls to be farmed, only to die twice at most, and so within under a day's worth of grinding. The two systems are nothing alike.

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As for the RJ requirements, it was known from the start that it was going to be a clan project.

Yes, but we did not know it was going to be gated by such a high resource sink, nor that it would require completion of The Second Dream and knowledge of the war with the Sentient to unlock. That on its own is enough to severely mitigate its ability to serve as a new system to connect our missions and planets together as was suggested, as opposed to the extra bunch of Archwing missions we have now.

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It is also not a fact that it has dropped of off steams top 10, it is like all other top 10 games, dropping in and out constantly throughout the day.

The fact that games fluctuate on the charts does not contradict the fact that Warframe fluctuated its way out of the top 10 most played games on Steam, a position it had held consistently for years until then. It has still not returned to the top 10, by the way, so you are quite simply factually wrong here.

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But now you are straying from the topic aswell. It is also odd that WF is doing so bad while still being the #1 topseller aswell according to Steam.

You are, once again factually wrong. Warframe is not even on the first page of top-selling games on Steam. 

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I've also never used the word fact, except regarding that it is a fact that it is your opinion. So nice try.

Not only is this hilarious in that it is effectively an admission on your part that you've never even attempted to argue on a factual basis in a factual debate, you are also lying yet again:

On 2019-12-30 at 2:05 PM, SneakyErvin said:

If you wanna bring in facts atleast provide that video you talk of with liches in railjack.

This is you talking about facts.

On 2019-12-30 at 2:05 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Different opinions doesnt change the fact (and that is actual fact) that the content was released as promised.

This is you not only talking about facts, but claiming to be producing one, while simultaneously demonstrating a lack of understanding of what facts actually entail.

On 2019-12-30 at 4:11 PM, SneakyErvin said:

The only fact here is you having missed out on vital information and decide to complain about things missing that were covered and cleared up in said missed information.

Same as above.

On 2019-12-30 at 5:50 PM, SneakyErvin said:

Your opinion is not fact and that is a fact.

Perhaps the only actual fact you have ever produced, even though your statement only makes sense when completely divorced from all context. So yes, you have tried to talk about facts, if only to express how discussing anything with even the vaguest grounding on objective reality disturbs you tremendously. You've even tried to state facts, including in your very last posts, though unfortunately have been proven wrong, again because unlike opinions, facts have a truth value and can be verified independently, which is perhaps why you've avoided dealing with them as much as possible.

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So you say the foundation is bad. Yet you want the same foundation from the demo. Nice logic.

I certainly want the same foundation as the demo, which as detailed at length is fundamentally different from the foundation we currently have for Kuva Liches and Railjack, which even you admitted isn't good. Where exactly is the flaw in the logic, pray tell?

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Yeesh if you are gonna sum up my post in quote lumps atleast lump together the parts that connect so you dont need to say the same thing twice.

Then perhaps try not to repeat yourself, so that I don't have to respond to the same dross multiple times over. As it stands, you are arguing from repetition both within the same post and across your posts, as demonstrated by the immediate following:

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Again you repeat the differences between demo and live, yet they are nowhere to be seen.

The many differences have already been pointed out, to say nothing of how self-evidently delusional this claim is in and of itself.

Quote

Do point out where you saw classes

At 35:35:

"So this Kuva Lich is a tech specialization, which means they can redirect capital ship energy into protecting themselves"

Quote

or any ability actually being stole or used besides as a flavor text. I mean, it would be nice to actually see it.

At 37:44:

"Created by [DE]Rebecca - Volt

Stolen Abilities Shock

Specialization Tech"

The Kuva Lich uses Shock in combat, and also says the following at 33:35:

"Your voltage ran through me. My organs fried. My mind shattered. You killed me. And I grew stronger. I built a small empire, you tore it down. Obliterated my fleet. Killed me over and over. And still I grew stronger."

So effectively this demonstrates that DE announced a) Kuva Lich classes, b) Kuva Liches stealing specific abilities and commenting on them, and c) killing the Kuva Lich repeatedly being a part of their gameplay loop. Not only are you utterly wrong in everything you've said, you've just demonstrated that you refuse to accept any evidence even as it is spoon-fed to you directly from DE's own media.

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We kinda have lich classes here aswel and stolen powers. Though stealing near 40-160 powers or something would be tricky. so instead they have base power classes, rooted in which frame that turn them. What specific classes did the liches in the demo have? They also didnt steal any abilities in the demo. The lich mainly seen had a power from Volt, not much unlike how they get an electrical themed kit from Volt in the live system.

This is a whole lot of self-contradictory rationalization, riddled with falsehoods. Liches currently do not have classes, nor do they steal powers from progenitor warframes, they only come with prefab kits based on some arbitrary and simplified elemental system. See above for what was actually promised.

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And the capital ship assault we saw is the assassination mission we have, nothing different from it except that they showed squad link in order to get inside iirc. And those are things coming in the final product. And where did you see these growth mechanics on the lich? Nowhere in the actual gameplay.

At 19:50:

"Rebecca has one that's been hounding her for a while, and has grown so powerful that he controls his own capital ship now."

So, once again, you demonstrate an utter refusal to heed any evidence presented to you. The mission we have now is only a shell of what was presented, to say nothing of how the balance is completely off.

Quote

Again, it is the exact same model from what we saw in the demo aside from some arbitrary numbers that werent actually explained. So it seems like you want no changes at all.

You are arguing from repetition here, a fault made all the more embarrassing by the fact that what you're stating is provably wrong. See above for reference on the many differences between the demo and reality.

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If they build correctly there should be no problem. I've got zero issues on ground or in space, I've ran into no issues with other peoples RJs either. I've ran about 100 missions or something and I think I've failed uhm 2 if you dont count the 2 with bugs that forced me to quit out early on. I also cant remember the last time I had to actually repair something frequently in a mission. That is also all done in pugs. So the problem people have cant be too common if pugs manage that well in Veil. I also havent min-maxed anything, run unrivened melee and lack some of the better items for avionics and I'm not even a stellar player. Yeah RJ balance is in such a mess and melee is so weak. /s

All because you are sooooo good and everyone else is clearly doing it wrong. /s

But seriously, you've pretty much said this already, and were laughed at the first time. What makes you think you'll win anyone over with this sort of hollow self-aggrandizement? How exactly do you hope for any of this unsubstantiated nonsense to invalidate the dozens of threads all pointing out the balance and technical issues with Railjack?

Quote

The reason the demo showed a finalized version that is different from what we have is because it was never intended to be part of this release. I'm also having a hard time seeing that dysfunctional railjack you seem to experience, nor does it feel rushed.

It is not difficult to not see anything when sticking one's head in the sand. As such, it is to no-one surprise that someone with as obvious a bias as you would refuse to see problems literally thousands of users have now pointed out, nor does your opinion matter in the end when yours is visibly founded upon wilful ignorance, even in the face of hard facts and overwhelming consensus.

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It had some bugs at start, but those were quickly fixed and it is currently a very well done mode, although lacking in content diversity, but it is what I'd expect from a first iteration release. And the demo was likely not a faked fabrication, it just happened to be optimized for the showcase at the time, instead of trying to be optimized for several different possible rig setups across the globe with fluctuating connection between hosts and clients.

So optimized that it features entirely different systems, different gameplay, different balance, and different technical performance to the finished product. Right.

But also, the bugs haven't all been fixed, and the mode is still dysfunctional, as players continue to point out. You personally calling it "a very well done mode" (on what basis?) is of no consequence or relevance to this.

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I'm not saying resource juggling exsists, I'm saying it doesnt exsist because you dont need to juggle resources. It is a learning issue if you somehow run into a situation where you feel you need to juggle resources for some off reason during a mission.

See above on how your repeated insistence on self-promotion (i.e. "This thing doesn't exist because I'm so good at it!") achieves the exact opposite intended effect upon your argument. As it stands, it is an established fact that resource juggling does exist, by your own admission, and is a feature DE have included Railjack via the Forge.

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What uhm items do we need to repair so they dont break? What are you even talking about? We do have several enhancements on our RJs to use in mission, some cost resources other have CDs. I assume their intent was to have tactical skills costing resources too, but they stopped the resource use at omni, ordenance, flux and artillery, making the enhancement buffs free. I'm not trying to "muddle" anything. I'm just saying they may have ment this or that. But it is also kinda funny, you rage on about some resource juggling then rage about enhancements not also costing resources. I mean what? "This whole thing needs me to juggle resources! Bah add more resources costs!". I get the feeling you arent really sure what you want.

Have you never repaired wreckage? You are trying to muddle things here, because I'm pointing to a specific feature DE patently did not include, which you are trying to twist into something completely different. I am being rather precise here with what I am pointing out, too, so your feigned lack of understanding here stems purely from your own inconsistent arguments.

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I've fought plenty of liches, you failed to understand what I wrote. I wrote "we dont know what other system ws in place there". It has been a similar system because it had been encountred 6 times with 3 level increases, so there has been a similar success/fail system that they've played around with. It might have been 100% RNG for all we know where you just stab it and 50/50 it succeeds or fails. If you fail it levels, if it succeeds you are one step closer to defeating it, after 3 successes you can finaly kill it. That would add up with the number of levels and encounters. 1 = fail, 2 = success, 3 = fail, 4 = success, 5 = fail, 6 = success, 7 = vanquish. 3 fails = 3 levels, 3 success = kill unlock, 7th attempt = vanquish.

See above for how the Lich system demonstrably wasn't what we got. Once again, you are being contradicted by facts here, and given that you are putting your credibility on the line here, so goes that too.

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Loot is usually finalized last, especially for new modes when they know what the balance will require.

Says who?

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There was no lying about it because nothing was said and developers are allowed to use placeholder items for things that are yet not finalized. Lying would be saying that the railjack equipment will be just like archgun or frame weapons and then add what we have now, which is based on rng stats, isnt modable, doesnt have any indivicual capacity, cannot be formed, cannot be mastered etc. But that is something that they've never implied so they cant really have lied either. It is a silly accusation really. I mean, really lowest of the lowest ways to dev bash. And it is probably also a reportable offense.

See above for how you are arguing on no factual basis, and against established facts. Threatening to report me for pointing out facts is as unintentionally funny as it is pathetic, and is just about the worst example of white knighting you could've demonstrated.

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Who did it fail the expecations for? Not me since I quite enjoy a new way of grinding items. It is a breath of fresh air since it isnt the same in any way. "Deceptively changing a product" get over yourself please.

Ah, so because you're not disappointed, all is well in the world! Literally nobody else matters, apparently, not even when they have valid reasons to lay criticism (such as an entirely manufactured gameplay "demo" that even the developers admitted was staged), so long as you feel a certain way. And you're telling me to get over myself? Please.

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As I said previously, the reason it is different is because the media shown is the final intent of empyrean while what we have is the introduction to it to solve bugs and balance before it effects a wider part of the systems in the game.

What does the "final intent of empyrean" even mean here? Are you saying they added bugs and balance problems since the demo?

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More focus on RJ specific bugs instead of having to find possible bugs that may be unrelated to the RJ system. There are also zero issue with unlocking the RJ. It is ment to be clan centered endgame content, the costs are very low if you are actually endgame ready. Not everything needs to cater to new players. The one thing I actually had to farm were the few new resources (without cheesing as a RJ crewman) and getting the argon. New players will breeze through it since they can snatch the new resources while grinding their captain level as a crewman in RJ. So they'll be ahead of us when their RJ is ready with armaments, components, avionics and levels waiting. I'm not saying the fundamentals cant change, I'm saying there is no reason to change them since we've all gone through the same hoops in the end.

Thank you for confirming my point that Railjack, which was originally promised to connect our in-game universe, is currently being delivered as "endgame". It cannot achieve both at the same time, and so long as it attempts to achieve the latter, it will continue to remain this isolated piece of content, and fail to deliver what was shown in the demo and teaser.

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Yes, feedback based on what wasnt in by intention isnt valid feedback.

Why? It very much is valid feedback when players liked content that was promised, but got something else instead that is unpopular.

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It is redundant because most of the thing are likely already on the table to be implemented.

Interesting, I didn't know you worked at DE, or possessed the gift of clairvoyance.

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Feedback should fall on the things we can currently experience in RJ, like balance, loot, bugs and so on.

Which has been given, and which you have dismissed.

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You have the full right to dislike the RNG loot, or feel that the mobs are too hard etc. But you should likely be fair about it and not base your feedback regarding it on bad builds, still being in earth or saturn proxima and so on (not saying you are).

Case in point.

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Just as you shouldnt base your feedback on a demo video of things you see as missing when they are already intended to be released later on.

This is another argument from repetition, see above on how many criticisms lie not just with content that is missing, but content that exists.

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I'm curious to how far you've actually progressed in empyrean. Have you been taxied, have you gone with your own ship, have you been a crewman, have you tried to gear your ship and so on. Because we are experiencing two widely different empyrean systems.

Yes, we are, and more to the point, the Empyrean you are claiming to experience is different from the Empyrean pretty much everyone else is experiencing, as can be seen by the many threads to that effect. As such, the pertinent question here is what progress and builds you have, to be able to pretend to have experienced no issue.

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The bland lich view comes from it being bland and nothing else.

So nothing but pure, subjective opinion then. Thank you for confirming!

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I see no specific skill use, I see no specific class use, I see a level 3 lich dancing around getting shot at by a peashooter while doing little in return. Can bland take any other form? On live I atleast have to make sure to not get him by things, keep track of where it might teleport, avoid getting grabbed and be careful so I (or others) dont get rad procced. What I see in the demo is just the ordinary captain from the assassination objective, nothing else. I cant really tell it is a lich if it wasnt for the infomercial bla-bla at the right hand of the screen i.e the corrupted vor cosplay-lite drama.

In other words, you haven't actually bothered to even watch the demo, or are simply full-on denying reality, as evidenced by your need to have the demo not only linked to you, but timestamped as well with exact quotes and clips.

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I think you also missed my /s at the end of the "varied abilities" comment, you know, the sign for sarcasm. Neither of them have varied abilities, that is my point.

Which is precisely what I called out, as your statement is a lie. The Lich we were shown had its own class and stolen ability, which suggested variations in the abilities of Kuva Liches in demo-Warframe, as opposed to the lack of variation in abilities from mission to mission in Assassination missions. That was my point.

On 2019-12-31 at 6:33 PM, Aggh said:

~95% of the player base doesn't even bother with the forums.  Assuming the entire player base is the same as a vocal angry minority on the forums has always been silly.  Reacting to forum rage is why DE has yet to actually make a real dent on new player experience.

It is even sillier to assume that there is somehow this silent majority of players with the exact opposite opinion of every single bit of criticism posted on the forums, Reddit, content creator channels, and so on. Similarly, DE has reacted to forum rage on plenty of occasions, often to positive effect, such as by finally caving and giving us Vacuum on more companions, so pretending that DE doesn't respond to negative criticism here is also wrong.

[Aggh]

4 minutes ago, Teridax68 said:

 

It is even sillier to assume that there is somehow this silent majority of players with the exact opposite opinion of every single bit of criticism posted on the forums, Reddit, content creator channels, and so on. Similarly, DE has reacted to forum rage on plenty of occasions, often to positive effect, such as by finally caving and giving us Vacuum on more companions, so pretending that DE doesn't respond to negative criticism here is also wrong.

 

Never said that.  Might want to slow down and read posts you're responding to.  Just pointing out that forum rage is not consistently representative of the wider player base's opinion, it rarely is, in any game.  I'm not sure that the examples you gave really make up for the constant failed slog at attempting to create an end game for players who have and never will be happy with any attempt at end game.

[Teridax68]

11 hours ago, Aggh said:

Never said that.  Might want to slow down and read posts you're responding to. 

It is an assumption your post is implicitly relying upon. I would suggest you read the post you originally responded to as well, as I myself never claimed that the entire Warframe community posted on here. I simply know how sample sizes work, and while there is always a higher proportion of critics in any feedback forum than in-game, that in itself doesn't really factor in when criticism is so overwhelming and consistent, as is the case with The Old Blood and Empyrean.

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Just pointing out that forum rage is not consistently representative of the wider player base's opinion, it rarely is, in any game. 

This is completely false, and there are many documented cases of forum rage that are entirely representative of the playerbase's opinion, as with Reddit's lambasting of Star Wars Battlefront 2, and turning that "pride and accomplishment" corporate reply into the most heavily-downvoted comment on the site. Within just the context of Warframe, demand for universal Vacuum, the rage against DE's wrong-headed approach to it in The Vacuum within, and the developers subsequently buckling under pressure with a compromise, are a clear case of the controversy being representative of a larger issue that DE eventually had no real choice but to address. Less extreme instances include feedback for Nightwave, already short-term feedback for The Old Blood, backlash against Echoes of Umbra, the list goes on really.

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I'm not sure that the examples you gave really make up for the constant failed slog at attempting to create an end game for players who have and never will be happy with any attempt at end game.

How is this the players' fault? The playerbase is right to ask for endgame content in a game that has consistently failed to produce any; it is simply unfortunate that DE has so far not succeeded in providing an endgame despite multiple attempts. The answer isn't going to be to tell players to collectively stop asking for stuff that they want, but to continue asking for endgame, as DE figures out how to implement that durably without attempting yet another throwaway quick-fix that will be done and largely abandoned within weeks.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Teridax68

[SneakyErvin]

16 hours ago, Teridax68 said:

Then perhaps try not to repeat yourself, so that I don't have to respond to the same dross multiple times over. As it stands, you are arguing from repetition both within the same post and across your posts, as demonstrated by the immediate following:

The many differences have already been pointed out, to say nothing of how self-evidently delusional this claim is in and of itself.

At 35:35:

"So this Kuva Lich is a tech specialization, which means they can redirect capital ship energy into protecting themselves"

At 37:44:

"Created by [DE]Rebecca - Volt

Stolen Abilities Shock

Specialization Tech"

The Kuva Lich uses Shock in combat, and also says the following at 33:35:

"Your voltage ran through me. My organs fried. My mind shattered. You killed me. And I grew stronger. I built a small empire, you tore it down. Obliterated my fleet. Killed me over and over. And still I grew stronger."

So effectively this demonstrates that DE announced a) Kuva Lich classes, b) Kuva Liches stealing specific abilities and commenting on them, and c) killing the Kuva Lich repeatedly being a part of their gameplay loop. Not only are you utterly wrong in everything you've said, you've just demonstrated that you refuse to accept any evidence even as it is spoon-fed to you directly from DE's own media.

This is a whole lot of self-contradictory rationalization, riddled with falsehoods. Liches currently do not have classes, nor do they steal powers from progenitor warframes, they only come with prefab kits based on some arbitrary and simplified elemental system. See above for what was actually promised.

At 19:50:

"Rebecca has one that's been hounding her for a while, and has grown so powerful that he controls his own capital ship now."

So, once again, you demonstrate an utter refusal to heed any evidence presented to you. The mission we have now is only a shell of what was presented, to say nothing of how the balance is completely off.

 

I'll just touch down on this and ask you again. Do you really, I mean really, want a system that has gone on for 72(!!) days where you have only faced the lich 7 times in total at the time of his death in order to get something like Tech specialization added (which will likely come when liches move in with empyrean)? Yay I get to face my lich one time every 10 days! And over 72 days there cant have been much action regarding his goons either, since the video also shows a lousy 300 henchmen kills in total over those 72 days. The current system is already tedious, that system would be like spending a year watching paint dry and probably a tad worse.

The rest of the things, those from around 37:44 are already in the game. It already accounts for which frame kills it, which is what the abilities are based on. We have 7 different classes now based on which frame killed them. The only thing from the 37:44 out take that I want is the killing of the lich instead of the forced killing of the player. As I said earlier, if you look at the video and understand what is shown you see the exact same system except that the lich has 1 skill instead of 4, the encounter is dragged out over a time several thousands of percent longer than live while we still fight the lich the same amount of times as now.

I rather have what we have now, with a lich taking up towards 2 hours and having prefab skill sets they actually use, instead of what seems as one skill only. Also, what point is there to him commanding a ship? It is just fluff flavor, just as when he spreads to new planets based on leveling up. It really just means he happened to expand to railjack instead of another planet (or that him hitting level 3 always makes him expand to railjack). It is the same lump of meat, he isnt making the ship he's in more dangerous, he isnt trying to hunt you down with it, it is just a tile to fight him on in a different mode. I think you would be horribly let down if that system went live, I bet you would say the same thing "it isnt what they promised!". I know I would be as disappoited in that system as in the one we have, except for me being able to kill the lich instead of getting forcefully killed by it.

And do you really think it would be close to reality to have liches based on 42 seperate frames while somehow also giving them interesting kits that involve more than one skill? This while also deciding which frame impacts what element you get on the lich weapon? How would you balance a 72 day long encounter when it comes to loot rewards? Should he give about 1000 times the rewards in one go instead of that single weapon we get around each 2 hours? Or should we still just get that one weapon? Yeah that would surely fly with the community. There is a reason DE decided to dump the "day" system.

So no, there is nothing positive, extra or better with the lich system shown, it is just straight up worse except for us killing it and possibly some cooler fluff.