I'm ok with a Amesha nerf\rework...

[xS0nico]

8 hours ago, Smilomaniac said:

The Itzal. By their own logic there's now no other archwing worth using than the Amesha. Had Itzal retained its own blink ability, it would've been useful in Railjack.

The Tonkor and by extension all self-damage explosive weapons. Instead of fixing the headshot issue with the weapon, they made it pointless to use due to its low rate of fire.

The Telos Boltace, instead of tuning the waves, they made it pull enemies in below your melee swing and then push them out, making it actually useless.

The Catchmoon. It's not useless, but it was over nerfed.

Now I'm sure you're going to sit and pick everything apart that I just said, because your sphincter is so tight that it competes with the crushing gravity of a black hole, because I wrote 'uselessness'. We both know that you're not so infantile or stupid that you need to take everything said literally, so spare me the inevitable quote war and just tell me whether you understood my point or not, that DE overdo their nerfs.

I don't care in the slightest if you don't agree. Because you'd be wrong.

I can agree with most of these expect for the last 2.

Telos Boltace got buffed in the last update, and the gimmick is kinda decent if you need to group up enemies (like a Rhino 1° Augment setup)

And seriously...Catchmoon nerf is really, really far from being over nerfed. Not only because Zephyr exist, but because it literraly became what it was supposed to be: A pocket shotgun.
Honestly it hurted way more the dispo nerf that the range nerf if you ask me.


I'm going to repeat: I'm fine with a nerf if in exchange you give me 3 Archwing that actually are viable. 
If Amesha doesn't get nerfed, that's fine for me, i just want more choice possibility instead of a arbitrary one.



 

Edited January 4, 2020 by xS0nico

[SpringRocker]

13 minutes ago, Kerberos-3 said:

I think Elytron is fine as far as it's intended role, which is to be the damage-oriented archwing, it's just that the guidance for it's abilities is incredibly bad and most of it's abilities deal next to no damage(rather ironic, don't you think).. If anything, I'd keep Warhead as is as far as mechanics go, just with a massive damage boost.

Problem is that abilities don't scale well. It's basically either killing everything around you at low levels or not worth the energy at higher levels.

I kind of think that one of it's abilities should be an auto-turret that uses the stats for a second equipped Archgun. Channeled ability, Auto-adjusts for projectile travel time while it shoots, 1/4th the damage (as it will have AI tracking), and target priority similar to "Assault Mode" sentinel precept.

[More-L]

8 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I will laugh between choking sobs if they turn Watchful Swarm into damage reduction and call it a nerf to balance her down. Hello infinite energy.

There have been a lot of threads on potential arching changes and what buffs and nerfs might be appropriate. I do think that for the content that existed before Railjack, Itzal made sense, Amesha was broken, and Elytron was useless, and that any attempt to balance the three against each other and the new content is going to require an Ember level rework for Itzal and essentially an entirely new kit for Elytron, who's got nothing salvageable in any form.

If you play her properly you already have infinite energy without any concern. The only difference is you have a small window where you might get 1 shot by a big AoE right now. I'm also talking about her 4 giving reduction instead of immunity, basically working similar to rage but working on shields while giving damage reduction. Though it isn't like I believe all they need to do is give damage reduction and be done with it, all the Archwings need to be balanced/reworked around railjack the idea of giving her damage reduction instead of immunity is just what I think is the major point.

[Kerberos-3]

2 minutes ago, SpringRocker said:

Problem is that abilities don't scale well. It's basically either killing everything around you at low levels or not worth the energy at higher levels.

I kind of think that one of it's abilities should be an auto-turret that uses the stats for a second equipped Archgun. Channeled ability, Auto-adjusts for projectile travel time while it shoots, 1/4th the damage (as it will have AI tracking), and target priority similar to "Assault Mode" sentinel precept.

One issue is that Archwing has almost no ways to increase Ability Strength aside from (Primed)Morphic Transformer, which hurts Elytron's viability quite a bit.

[LazyKnight]

50 minutes ago, More-L said:

If you play her properly you already have infinite energy without any concern. The only difference is you have a small window where you might get 1 shot by a big AoE right now. I'm also talking about her 4 giving reduction instead of immunity, basically working similar to rage but working on shields while giving damage reduction. Though it isn't like I believe all they need to do is give damage reduction and be done with it, all the Archwings need to be balanced/reworked around railjack the idea of giving her damage reduction instead of immunity is just what I think is the major point.

Damage reduction wouldn't mean much unless it was 90-95% and then it would make it effortless to heal via her 2. If Amesha's 2 was also nerfed then archwing would fall into the pit of having no way to heal outside of health pads. Rage works because players can supplement that lost health with either life-strike or some other means and rage without a healing method it is a waste.

The first issue DE needs to solve is the issue with railjack incoming damage. The NPCs do a stupid amount of damage and players should not need to have damage reduction or immunity to survive. This entire game-mode was not balanced and DE need to do a rework to make these systems play together.

Edited January 5, 2020 by LazyKnight

[nslay]

11 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

Damage reduction wouldn't mean much unless it was 90-95% and then it would make it effortless to heal via her 2. If Amesha's 2 was also nerfed then archwing would fall into the pit of having no way to heal outside of health pads. Rage works because players can supplement that lost health with either life-strike or some other means and rage without a healing method it is a waste.

The first issue DE needs to solve is the issue with railjack incoming damage. The NPCs do a stupid amount of damage and players should not need to have damage reduction or immunity to survive. This entire game-mode was not balanced and DE need to do a rework to make these system play together.

Healing currently isn't super reliable with Amesha either. It can especially take forever if 3 is active. Also players tend to get themselves damaged on purpose for energy using her 4 (which is dumb!). So part of the problem is Amesha's 4 is really dumb. But healing is not that big of a problem since you can heal when boarding Crewships.

If damage mitigation is high enough to survive the time between boarding Crewships, I think that's a win!

[Avienas]

10 minutes ago, nslay said:

Healing currently isn't super reliable with Amesha either.

Without being on the level of Magus repair, most healing based abilities fall off hard since flat healing/second is useless against anything with high health bases, to the point its better for something like Nidus, Inaros, Grendel, etc. just use a healing move they might have or a arcane to do the dirty work. Which especially does not help that the damage and health scales are on completely different levels between enemies and players, which gets even more noticable as enemies get higher in level, with that easily showing once people get past the 30-40 or so bracket, where a so-called tank frame with easily 70~90% D.R. starts getting shreded really fast, even with a max rank Arcane grace on them that is constantly re`procing.

But thats honestly likely Damage reduction literally loses power when its a rapid fire of bullets are what tearing you down instead. Since even if the shots only deal 2-3 a hit, them dealing 1-2 instead due to D.R. is not going to make that huge of a difference if hundreds of them are still slapping you a second, only when you are able to reduce that count of shots against you, at a rather fast pace.

Quote

 

It can especially take forever if 3 is active. Also players tend to get themselves damaged on purpose for energy using her 4 (which is dumb!).

Considering its either that or pancakes and its more efficient to just headbutt yourself for energy and one has to overly rely on Amesha`s slow and other abilities just to stay alive long enough while standing still and being able to freaking actually shoot enemies. Its no wonder why people would take the cheese route.

Quote

So part of the problem is Amesha's 4 is really dumb. But healing is not that big of a problem since you can heal when boarding Crewships.

If damage mitigation is high enough to survive the time between boarding Crewships, I think that's a win!

Exactly, the issue here is archwings need to have much more damage mitigation or railjack enemies need to deal ALOT less damage and have railjack slightly scaled back on durability to match, so archwings can take quite few hits on saturn content, especially with its max out ver of vitality, but should definitely be able to take some blows if it has a good armor base that is further boosted by an armor mod.

Otherwise, they might as well let archwings have around 40-60% Natural D.R. from a high armor pool and also reach the 75~85% D.R. range once they got the armor mod equipped. Sadly its safe to say that D.E. will likely not take the obvious route to fixing the problem and might do something stupid, like boost railjack`s sling shot range and let people magically able to multi lock fighters in the slingshot and chain battery ram thru them all to get a combo kill.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Avienas

[LazyKnight]

9 minutes ago, nslay said:

If damage mitigation is high enough to survive the time between boarding Crewships, I think that's a win!

Right now there is no real point in manually flying to a crewship when the slingshot makes you invincible. 

DE need to make the player invincible for 2-3 seconds after exiting the Crewship. Getting into a Crewship is not even remotely as dangerous as getting out because you can't see but everyone else is already targeting you.

 

Edited January 5, 2020 by LazyKnight

[nslay]

4 minutes ago, LazyKnight said:

Right now there is no real point in manually flying to a crewship when the slingshot makes you invincible. 

DE need to make the play invincible for 2-3 seconds after exiting the Crewship. Getting into a Crewship is not even remotely as dangerous as getting out because you can't see but everyone else is already targeting you.

 

I play Veil missions entirely in Amesha... the only time I need to heal is when I'm using that really dumb 4 ability to fuel the 3 ability. Otherwise, I would never need to heal in space. And the other Archwings have unreliable or no damage mitigation at all. I could probably pull this off with Odonata if the Energy Shell blocked AoE damage and the flares lasted longer and actually reliably intercepted projectiles/missiles... and Odonata has no healing ability at all! In fact, I was happily using Odonata all the way up to mid-Saturn.

EDIT: P.S. I've never died exiting a Crewship where I killed the gunners.

Edited January 5, 2020 by nslay

[nslay]

23 minutes ago, Avienas said:

Considering its either that or pancakes and its more efficient to just headbutt yourself for energy and one has to overly rely on Amesha`s slow and other abilities just to stay alive long enough while standing still and being able to freaking actually shoot enemies. Its no wonder why people would take the cheese route.

I'm so sick of that ability! After learning that fighters take gated damage anyway, I've switched my Cyngas to Cold+Particle instead of Radiation+Particle. I am still able to efficiently dispatch fighters in the latest Veil missions, only with Cold procs, I don't miss when leading the shots on otherwise weaving fighters in the absence of Amesha's 3!

Yeah, Radiation is cool when you can keep Amesha's 3 up. But Cold always works! And Cold will survive any impending nerf to Amesha's 3.

Edited January 5, 2020 by nslay
Add gated damage reference

[CopperBezel]

I've been using both. No disadvantage to doubling up. They're moving at 20% speed until I hit them, then they stop....

[Gentleman_Bird]

Ideas for archwing buffs:

Elytron: fast-moving seeker missiles that lock on to targets, similar to Ash's Bladestorm

Odonata: Grant shields to the Railjack

Itzal: bigger loot vacuum

[nslay]

8 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

I've been using both. No disadvantage to doubling up. They're moving at 20% speed until I hit them, then they stop....

I really hope they remove Energy Shell's +Heat, or allow us to change the element with energy color, or change how it combines with damage... because it would be unbelievably bad if it combined with Cold to form the meaningless Blast in Railjack.

I hope they remove it or change how it combines +Heat because even with the energy color feature, Cold would end up proc'ing way more often than you would want.

[LazyKnight]

1 hour ago, nslay said:

EDIT: P.S. I've never died exiting a Crewship where I killed the gunners.

I wasn't talking about being killed from the turret of the crewship being exited, but the other units.  I have been instant gibed a few times now running veil solo after exiting a crewship by the door and the get blasted  by another crewship that just spawn in above me. I didn't see it or get a message about a crewship translating into the sector and the first indication that another crewship was nearby was my own revival message.

 

[nslay]

Just now, LazyKnight said:

I wasn't talking about being killed from the turret of the crewship being exited, but the other units.  I have been instant gibed a few times now running veil solo after exiting a crewship by the door and the get blasted  by another crewship that just spawn in above me. I didn't see it or get a message about a crewship translating into the sector and the first indication that another crewship was nearby was my own revival message.

 

I never died that way either.

EDIT: Probably the reason I don't die this way is because I leave 1 captured Crewship alive to reduce aggro on me.

Edited January 5, 2020 by nslay

[LazyKnight]

Just now, nslay said:

I never died that way either.

Good for you. I am done with talking to you.

[AlphaPHENIX]

8 hours ago, nslay said:

To be honest Amesha is one hell of a really powerful archwing even outside of Empyrean, almost borderline broken if you ask me.

So you are saying that it's balanced?

[Danyelius]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Cubewano:

... and basically no nerfs happened last year, and those that did happened...

Hahaha, do you read your self? No offense, this made my day 😂

[CaptainMinty]

Considering Amesha is just a flying god of invulnerability, and CC, in a mode where CC is absolutely incredibly helpful, it's no wonder we have dove towards the archwing. It bathes in infinite energy and infinite invulnerability. Kinda like old trinity back in the day.

Amesha is disproportionate in power compared to the other Archwings. No other Archwing comes as close to it. Only reason Itzal was used more was because the thing was a taxi. Amesha flew under the radar in how powerful it was because almost nobody used their Archwings anymore, save for taxi service on the plains and vallis. 

I also feel that the Archguns should only be strong enough for non-elite fighters. The focus on damage output should be the mighty cannons of the Railjack. As for survivability, is it truly insane to think that fighters, or heavily armed and armored crewships shouldn't easily take down what amounts to basically someone in a suit of armor with a space jetpack on? I mean, these are ships we are talking about. It honestly makes sense that if one of those crewship shots hits a Warframe with an Archwing on, the Warframe being completely exposed is gonna suffer fatal trauma. The issue is that crewship shots track the Archwing. They should be missing such a small agile target 95% of the time with ship cannons.

[Cubewano]

6 hours ago, Danyelius said:

Hahaha, do you read your self? No offense, this made my day 😂

if you think me inaccurate do feel free to provide evidence to the contrary. 

[CopperBezel]

6 hours ago, CaptainMinty said:

As for survivability, is it truly insane to think that fighters, or heavily armed and armored crewships shouldn't easily take down what amounts to basically someone in a suit of armor with a space jetpack on? I mean, these are ships we are talking about. It honestly makes sense that if one of those crewship shots hits a Warframe with an Archwing on, the Warframe being completely exposed is gonna suffer fatal trauma. The issue is that crewship shots track the Archwing. They should be missing such a small agile target 95% of the time with ship cannons.

That makes sense until you consider the rest of the game. But warframes take on hordes of the best biomechanical fighting machines the system has to offer, and most of them do it  eating immense punishment in the process. I fully expect a warframe in space mode to be noticeably superior to any given Grineer fighter craft.

[nslay]

8 hours ago, AlphaPHENIX said:

So you are saying that it's balanced?

The quote the forum is attributing to me is not actually my quote. I did not write that Amesha is "one hell of a really powerful Archwing outside of Empyrean," because it's actually nothing special outside of Empyrean.

However, that does not imply that Amesha is balanced for Empyrean where survivability is the most important attribute of an Archwing (and everything else reduces to a gimmick).

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

And what about the Amesha is being nerfed? 

Do NOT touch the enemy slow, and if you do Nerf Amesha's Ult? 

You better make it so Archwings can actually survive a few hits. I have activated Amesha's ult after exiting an exploding crewship. Within 1.5 seconds I was obliterated even with the ult.

The slow on Amesha makes enemy ships less frustrating to shoot, but I really wish the guns were hitscan or I could lock onto them or something.... I honestly wouldn't enjoy Railjack unless the nerf comes with several severe qol changes that solve what Amesha resolves. 

(If ships aren't annoying to shoot, people wouldn't use the Amesha slow so they can shoot an enemy ship continuously for 20-30 seconds..... with a max forma-ed imperator vandal...)
I would love to use other archwings without getting one shot. 

[(PSN)UltraKardas]

19 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Amesha shut off all difficulty, completely, in every AW mode before Empyrean. It's been broken levels of strong as a tank/support Archwing since its realease, and the only reason it hasn't been reigned in yet is because Archwing's limited game mode pre-Railjack gave too little reason to bother with rebalancing (same reason no Archwing has ever gotten a free-space use balance pass until Railjack).

It was "fine" because it didn't rob other players of things to do in AW missions, but now that there's some AW content scaling past Level 30, Amesha's brokenness now presents a bit of "false choice fallacy". Let's hope the other Archwings get some tweaks to be more than just transports to enemy Crewships. Buffing other AWs will likely help even out choices, but we can't just pretend Amesha isn't broken. It does need some tining down.

You always have a frame/arching remove all dificulty. Amesha really wasn't a problem or even popular as people liked the speed of Itzal over the godmode of Amesha. 

Yet Amesha also was solely responsible for saving the Jordas Raid. 

After they nerfed Trinity, and Trinity could no longer heal the archwings in the Jordas Raid, Amesha was the only real reason that was possible. People would either spam heal and shields pizzas which could mess up the Jordas Raid... Amesha has fixed alot of issues and made things more enjoyable for the larger populace, just not as much as Itzal. 

[DatDarkOne]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Amesha really wasn't a problem or even popular as people liked the speed of Itzal over the godmode of Amesha.

Not quite my fellow Tenno.  Amesha wasn't a problem mostly because players weren't doing actual AW content much.  Itzal was used most only because of it's speed by the general masses.  

All I have to say about this whole thing is that this situation is a perfect example of why nerfing stuff isn't always a good answer.  Look at what happened to Itzal.  It basically got nerfed because it was the best choice in one mode of play.  Now it's suffering in the newer content released right after it's nerf.  If Itzal wasn't nerfed, we might not even have the current discussion we're having now.  Amesha is in the same area as pre-nerf Itzal was.  

I think that DE should look for the cause of the problem and not the end results of that cause.