Jump to content
Jade Shadows: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Kuva Liches 2.0 Rework Ideas


Recommended Posts

Kuva Liches 2.0 Rework Ideas


Kuva Liches start as Larvlings that gain the strength of the Warframe that kills them, and become super soldiers that return from the dead until the correct sequence of Requiem mods are used to sever their immortality. A quote from the Kuch Lich at Tennocon 2019, "Your voltage ran through me. My organs fried. My mind shattered...Killed me over and over and still I grew stronger."


However, the current design of the Kuch Lich system creates a Kuva Lich that does not return from the dead because it nevers dies. Whenever the incorrect requiem mods are used on it, the Lich counterattacks and kills the player's Warframe. This system does not follow the theme of immortal Liches returning from the dead and adapting to their enemies, nor does it bridge the different aspects and gameplay of Warframe (a goal Steve talked about at Tennocon 2019). Instead, it has become another island of content grind that the Tenno play while ignoring the rest of the game.


Interaction with the Kuva Lich is mostly limited to Lich missions because little progress can be made outside these missions, so the Tenno must go out of their way to defeat their personal enemy. These Liches fail to act like vengeful archenemies because interactions with them feel empty due to their lack of influence on gameplay and consequences. Their effect on gameplay is limited to petty amounts of resource theft and a single death from an incorrect Requiem mod. These results have little significance both inside and outside of Lich missions.


The hunt for Thralls is equally repetitive to the actual fight against the Lich, where the player uses brute force to wear down a tanky enemy that stands still and fights back with more brute force (which is a fight that is very similar to the Wolf of Saturn Six). There is more variety in the Lich’s appearance and personality than the strategy to combat them.However, the initial concept of the Kuva Lich still holds merit, and with adjustments, it can be a very fulfilling and enjoyable experience. Here are some suggestions that I think will enhance the Kuva Lich experience.



1. Kuva Lich Design


Currently: Kuva Liches do not die when attacked with the incorrect Requiem mod and will kill the Warframe in return in order to level up. The Lich starts with all 4 abilities from the progenitor Warframe.




A) Kuva Liches do not level up when they kill the Tenno but when they die. When the player kills their Lich with the wrong Requiem mod, their Lich will die only to glow and revive with a new found strength. When the Lich spawns for the first time, it starts with only one copied Warframe ability from the progenitor Warframe. With each subsequent death and level up, the Lich increases its stats and gains another stolen Warframe ability from the Warframe that deals the killing blow (this Warframe may be different from the progenitor Warframe). This results in a Lich that may hold abilities from a variety of Warframes that have dealt the final killing blow.


B) The killing blow involves using the parazon to stab the Lich with a Requiem mod equipped. When the correct mod is used, the Warframe will stab the Lich and execute the Lich like how a Thrall is executed, but the Lich will stand back up to fight until all 3 correct mods are used. When the incorrect mod is used, the Warframe will stab the Lich, but unaffected by the incorrect Requiem mod, the Lich will grab the Warframe’s throat. Then the Warframe kicks the Lich away and performs a Special Execution to kill the Lich (similarly to Mortal Kombat Fatalities). After the execution, the Lich’s body will glow and regenerate as it did when it was first born, granting it a level up and new ability. These special executions are great aesthetic details that add more personality to the fight against the Lich, show off the Warframes' unique abilities, and stays consistent with the Lich remembering how the player "fried it's organs".


Special Execution Examples:

- Frost freeze blasts the Lich into solid ice and punches the Lich in the face causing the top half of his body to shatter into pieces and his lower half falls back lifeless.

- Volt expels lightning out of his hand (possibly shouting, “Unlimited Power!”) and lifts the Lich into the air and slams it into the ground.

- Mag uses her magnetic powers to lift the Lich and crush its body into a ball and lets it falls to the ground.

- Wisp teleports in front of the Lich and kicks him to the ground, then opens a Sol gate point blank and melts the Lich’s face off.

- Nidus uses Virulence to impale the Lich and hold it in the air, then unleashes his maggots who crawl into the Lich and eat him inside out until the Lich’s head explodes with puss.


C) Each time the Lich is killed by the player, their appearance develops further showing scars and other signs of injuries to reflect their history dying to the Tenno and regenerating.


Scar Examples:

- If the Lich is killed with Heat/Radiation damage or Wisp’s special execution , the Lich will regenerate with burn scars on their face or a cooling system on their helmet.

- If the Lich is killed with Toxin/Viral/Gas damage or Nidus’ special execution, the Lich will regenerate with the Nox helmet.


The purpose of these changes are to create a more immersive experience with the Kuva Lich conflict and develop more unique characteristics for each Kuva Lich.



2. Kuva Lich Interactions and Connections


Currently: Liches and Thralls are only encountered in Lich missions and that limits Murmur gain and Lich progression to those missions. Kuva Liches will steal small amounts of mission rewards on planets within Lich territory.


Reworked: Kuva Liches will send Assassination squads of Thralls to kill the Tenno in regular missions (and the number of Thralls increase with the Lich level). These Thralls can be executed for Murmur gain allowing Lich progression outside of the previously designated missions. There is a greater chance of Assassination Thralls spawning on planets under Lich territory. The Lich missions within its territory can still be played as a faster method of Murmur gain and for a possible Lich encounter. Lich mission have a greater enemy spawn rate because fighting in enemy territory should yield greater numbers of enemies and more aggressive combat. In Spy missions, there is a 15% chance of gaining Murmur when perfectly cracking a vault. These changes allow for Murmur gain outside of Lich missions and reduce the need to grind the same missions, thus preventing player burnout.


Liches will only steal mission rewards (at a much greater percentage than before) from the rival player when it kills its rival Warframe (and steals an even greater percentage if it kills the Warframe multiple times). If the Lich deals the killing blow to its rival Warframe, it will perform its own execution on the Warframe and place a Kuva Collar on the defeated Warframe. The Kuva Collar is an ugly collar that will be placed around a defeated Warframe’s neck and be a symbol of shame and defeat. It can only be removed when the Lich is defeated. Other Warframes in the Arsenal will be unaffected by the collar. The collar will provide a single random debuff to the Warframe.


Kuva Collar Debuff Examples: The Warframe takes 25% more damage from the Grineer. The Warframe will be targeted and attacked more aggressively by the Grineer (even if there are other Tenno in the squad). The Warframe has -25% sprinting speed. No effect except for looking ugly and ruining your Fashion frame.


These changes connect the Kuva Lich content to other islands of content and bridges them together. They also create a more significant and personal consequence to losing to your Lich.



3. Kuva Lich Boss Fight

Currently: The Kuva Lich fight has 3 phases in his health bar where he behaves exactly the same throughout the fight. The only way to fight the Lich is with brute force and high damage. The Lich will sometimes grab and throw a Warframe.


Reworked: The Lich spawns right in front of its rival Warframe, and if the targeted player runs away and reaches a certain distance, the Lich teleports to him (like a Flameblade or Warden) and performs a knockback slam. The Lich will prioritize attacking its personal enemy over his squad mates (like the Stalker). When the Lich initially spawns, it falls from the air and performs a superhero landing that creates a shockwave and knockback. Liches often spawn a long distance away from the rival Warframe, so this teleporting ability can bring the Lich to the player and reduce backtracking through the mission.


The Lich will no longer grab the Warframe and throw them as an attack. Instead, the Lich has its own parazon, which it uses to stab the Warframe and hold it in the air while draining the Warframe's energy. During this short period, the player being held can use his Operator to attack the Lich with a Void Blast and free their Warframe. Having more energy will make the Lich take longer to drain the Warframe. If the operator is too late, the Warframe will be drained of all its energy and receive a Lich mark for the duration of the mission. If 3 Lich marks are accumulated, the Lich will execute the Warframe and instantly kill the player. Having this counterplay with the operator in the Lich fight makes the fight more interactive and enjoyable.


If the operator is within range of the Lich while the Lich is fighting and not draining a Warframe, the Lich will grab the operator and throw them into the ground (like they do currently with Warframes) and send the operator back into the Warframe.


Kuva Liches have weak points on their armor that can be targeted (similarly to Sargas Ruk, Lech Kril, and the Ambulas). If these weak points are destroyed, the Lich will be debuffed and become easier to defeat. This avoids the same problem as with the Wolf of Saturn Six where the boss was much too tanky and the fight was too long.


Debuff Examples: A shining light is located on 3 parts of the Lich’s armor, and when they are shot and destroyed, the Lich’s chest piece or helmet will fall off and the Lich loses a great amount of armor stats or headshots will deal 10 times more damage. The Lich has a tubing mechanism (like Lech Kril) on its back, and when they are destroyed, the Lich becomes vulnerable to status damage.


Converted Kuva Liches can be summoned as a Lich Specter using a specter gear item. If summoned during a fight with another Kuva Lich, the converted Lich will grapple the enemy Lich and hold them still to create opportunities of vulnerability where the Lich will have a reduced armor stat and the player can attack freely. If the enemy Lich stabs the Warframe with the Lich parazon to drain its energy, the converted Lich can attack the enemy Lich and free the Warframe. This gives converted Liches more functions and establishes another strategy to combating the Kuva Lich.


A favorite Converted Lich can be equipped in the Arsenal to designate which Lich to summon, and the Lich can be customized with color palettes and possibly special Lich mods.


Kuva Lich behavior will change during the boss fight depending on how much health it has. The 3 health bars will also indict the phase of the boss fight.


Phase 1: The Kuva Lich spawns with his entourage of Thralls and uses his stolen Warframe abilities to attack the Tenno.


Phase 2: The Kuva Lich begins using super moves to attack the Tenno. These super moves are telegraphed by red highlighted areas to indict where the Lich will attack. The supermoves deals massive amounts of damage so the players must move to dodge the attack. During the charge up of the super move, the Lich will be invincible.


Super Move Examples: The Lich raises its arm and charges a ball of energy above its head, then throws the ball into the ground and causes a great explosion of electric energy. The Lich targets a wide cone in front of it and creates a great vacuum of energy that sucks in the players that are caught in the area of effect and brings them towards the Lich, then the Lich unleashes a series of attacks with an energy blade and deals a great amount of radiation damage.


Phase 3: The Kuva Lich summons a group of special Thralls with increased stats and drains energy from these Thralls. During this time, the Lich has greatly increased damage, armor, and speed until these Thralls are executed. Another purpose of these Thralls is to encourage squadmates to assist in defeating a Lich because this phase spawns more Thralls that provide Murmur and will benefit them. The Lich will also use new advanced fighting techniques.


Advanced Fighting Technique Examples: The Lich turns invisible and when in range of enemy Warframes, stabs them from behind with the Lich parazon and instantly gives them a Lich mark. The Lich summons a group of grineer units and disguises his appearance to match them, then when the disguised Lich approaches a Warframe, it slams the ground and knocks down and damages Warframes, but also reveals his true identity.


Brute force (which is the current and only strategy), destroying weak points, and summoning converted Lich Specters are different strategies to defeating the Kuva Lich, and having this variety makes the fight fresh and interesting. The counterplay strategies allow players to combat the Lich even if they do not have an optimal weapon set up with Rivens and maxed out forma polarizations. The brute force strategy is what forces players to use the “meta” weapons, such as the Catchmoon, which had such a high usage rate that it had to be nerfed.


4. Kuva Lich Relay Assault (A new idea)


Previously, Sargas Ruk attacked a Tenno Relay, and the Tenno fought to defend it and drive him out.


As a new mission event, the Kuva Liches attack a Tenno Relay, and the Tenno will once again fight to protect their Relay. However, this time, the 4 Kuva Liches of the 4 squad members will team up for a giant 4 vs 4 boss fight inside the Relay. The Liches will bring an army of Thralls that can be defeated for Murmur and assist in Lich Progression. However, the Tenno will not fight alone because Tenno operatives, such as the Rescue/Defense Agent, Syndicate Agents (from Red Veil, Steel Meridian, .etc), and Clem will fight alongside the players as NPC allies. The Kuva Liches and Thralls vs the Tenno and Relay allies will be an invasion event tracked as a Construction Status mission like the Fomorian Sabotage and Razorback Armada, and its progress will be measured by the number of Kuva Liches defeated. Entry to this mission will require an active Kuva Lich and a special key that can be built with Kuva as one of its crafting materials.


Entry into this special mission can require a key built from a freely provided reusable blueprint with Kuva as one of its resources.


This event has the Kuva Liches taking the initiative and bringing the fight to the Tenno rather than the Tenno finding and hunting them. It also provides a boost in Murmur gain in a mission with limited availability. This culminating showdown shows that the Kuva Liches can team up and fight just like the Tenno.

Edited by NytmareChaos
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like this but instead of the collar what about the unused animation of the kuva parazon, if the lich kills you he uses the kuva parazon to interrupt the transference and taking the warframe away from you, back to the orbiter you will be able to play a... recover mission? I think that was the name similar to what happens when zanuka defeats you but this time your warframe will be on the kuva fortress and you need to get it out of there.

Instead of stabbing the warframe to drain energy the lich could just hold the player attempting to perform a throw (this will last about 8 seconds), the player will need to use the operator to scape or a help of 2 other warframes and if he is helped by 3 warframes they will perform a throw to the lich.

One of my ideas was that we could level up the converted liches or even revive those who we killed, we will need to spend 2.5k kuva to level up and 5k to revive a lich.

Kuva Nemesis

We know that the liches are just a gloryfied Sargas Ruk but I been thinking, what about a lich like we saw in the tennocon? well here it is, take in mind that this will be a long term relationship.

Once you killed a kuva lich there is a small chance (~10%) that it will revive again but this time it will not talk to you, it will be working on the shadows to take back the reputation you took of him (2-3 missions) once that time passed the lich will start to conquer territories on the planet you killed it, once that is complete he will conquer another planets but only the ones that it sees convinient :uranus, jupiter, ceres, earth, sedna.

If he conquered Uranus: all the thralls will have the same inmunities and recistances that the lich.

If he conquered Jupiter: the thralls will have amalgam equipment.

If he conquered Ceres: he will have a special grineer galleon that needs the railjack to fight.

If he conquered Earth (almost impossible): he will have prime weapons, a pet and will traslade to the void, to fight him you will need a railjack.

If he conquered Sedna: you will have a permanent mark of the g3 and the executors of rathuum and all the grineer will have a damage boost.

This lich can and will change weapons and maybe abilities from time to time and it will not appear at any mission, you will need to locate the asasination mission and clear your way to it to fight him but even then the lich can left the mission to move to another point.

Using the same method that op said, you can kill the lich with the wrong requiems but instead of using one and if it's not the correct the lich will die and revive, this time the player will need to use the 3 requiems to kill the lich either way, after killin it a cinematic will play if it was not the correct requiems where the warframe is walking away from the corpse and the corpse will begin to move a little, after the tenno realizes,it begins to float and spark to finally dissapear laughting meaning the lich is still alive and now is stronger.

This lich doesn't need a player intervention to grow stronger so if the player leave it for a day let's say, it will conquer 4 planets.

All kuva nemesis will have a mask so either way you kill or convert it you will recieve its mask as a operator cosmetic.

Maybe we can go further with the cosmetics, the kuva nemesis can spawn with a manic syandana (the manic's characteristic backpack) and if you defeat it (kill or convert) you get the syandana.

Further and beyond, if you defeat a kuva nemesis that controls sedna you will recieve the grineer militar armor pack (torso armor, shoulder plates and syandana of the grineer lancers) for the warframe. And if you do something on the fight your reward will be the grineer arid armor pack (shoulder plate and syandana of the grineer arid lancers).

Edited by ozcg888
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Love your suggestions, I really wish DE would act on these in some manner.  Having this content island has prevented me from going after them.  For hunters, they sure do not hunt.  

Love the idea of murmor assassin squads.  However, how would this work for other players in squad? 

If everyone always had a lich, every mission would have extra murmor.  Why would I run lich missions?

It seems either spawn frequently or not enough (if solo).  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the idea of the Kuva Lich spawning in missions as an assassin, just like the stalker, but would have a higher spawn rate in planets within his territory. The Kuva Lich missions would guaranteed a encounters with Thralls and have an even better Lich spawn rate in order to expedite the Lich completion. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the new changes to the Tenebrous ephermera and Sentient Captura scenes, I hope the other ephermeras and Vengeful ephermeras will be moved to Rell for a regular purchase instead of being locked behind RNG. The Vengeful Ephermeras could have blueprints that are built using Kuva or a Kuva weapon holding the applicable stat bonus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep the kuva lich should spawn on their controlled planet(s) as an assasin sometimes even if you arent choosing the mode, especially if they're really angry at you.



The worst thing about liches is the kuva spawnling, needs a complete change is how it spawns.

It shouldnt be missions specific like it now, shouldnt be about kills after the alarm has gone off.

Currently it isnt possible to achieve on mobile defence or defence, as even when the screen goes red no amount of kills will make one spawn.

Should include kuva fortress and uranus missions as possible spawn locations currently it's ONLY saturn, adaro and plato on luna (which is shared grineer/corpus mission)


The best idea is this:

I think they should spawn from kuva fortress influenced nodes, and if you go to a kuva flood or kuva siphon or so mission one SHOULD always spawn for you after you kill the siphon. (if you dont have a lich currently) so birthplaces could be anywhere a kuva siphon happened.



  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How about we just nuke the system from orbit and start over?

...I know that isn't exactly helpful feedback, but right now this system needs so much more time in the development oven that I'm pretty sure they just threw a bowl of flour in the oven for 10 minutes and called it a cake.

Edited by Aldain
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Aldain said:

How about we just nuke the system from orbit and start over?

...I know that isn't exactly helpful feedback, but right now this system needs so much more time in the development oven that I'm pretty sure they just threw a bowl of flower in the oven for 10 minutes and called it a cake.

Yeet it like they did trials? Sounds like the right move.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

how about getting rid of the requiems alltogether?? I mean, it´s a pointless grind above another grind that goes nowhere. how about if:

-The litch scales based on your mastery rank.
-It actively seeks you out by sending followers and eventually itself to invade on your missions (like the stalker/wolf of saturn six)
-when you manage to defeat it there, you´ll get hints/coordinates to where it´s base is, prompting a special assault mission where you fight it with it´s elite followers.
-when you manage to take it down there, the lich escapes and you have to find it-seek where it hid (killing thralls, etc) for a final showdown where it goes all out against you (i.e. over levels, special weapons/followers etc).

INSTEAD of the requiem/relic/die/rng malarchy.

all this could be implemented along what the OP said,and it will make the whole process more "organic" instead of "separate grind that gives out zilch for anything else you want to do in the game"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 часов назад, (PS4)AlexAntares сказал:

how about getting rid of the requiems alltogether??

They should have done something like this from the beginning. Too bad they'll think that they're too deep at this point and won't discard this system that feels more like an afterthought.

I mean, if they wanted to copy Shadow of War, all they had to do is to copy it right. SoW's bosses had immunities and resistances, but were still killable if you're a good enough player. Requiems don't require skill, it's just a pure RNG mechanic that even if you grinded all the murmurs, still punishes you because if you don't get the right order, you're screwed.

This whole concept was bad from the beginning. It's really baffling how they thought it was a good idea to implement something like this. I mean, I get the sentiment, it makes the players spend more time in-game, but it's such a predatory tactic, that I feel uncomfortable at best when I engage this system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I greatly enjoy the expansion of the lich hunt to more of a passively done process instead of active thrall farm. Another issue i want to highlight is the complete lack of any sort of connection to your lich via personality. I have played a lot of shadow of mordor/war and the greatest letdown for me was simply the way a lich is just the same 2 liches in different costumes. you'd honestly think that there are only two liches and they are professional actors that constantly swap appearances and pretend to be different individuals. Coming from another game that has practically unlimited variants for nemesis personalities it's very sad to see and underwhelming. There needs to be far more variety in how your lich acts because as it is every single lich blends together because nothing truly sets them apart. I have had 15 female liches and now their lines are like nails on a chalkboard and i am extremely disincentivized to go after another lich.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

En 28/1/2020 a las 16:29, BloodRavenCap dijo:

They should have done something like this from the beginning. Too bad they'll think that they're too deep at this point and won't discard this system that feels more like an afterthought.

I mean, if they wanted to copy Shadow of War, all they had to do is to copy it right. SoW's bosses had immunities and resistances, but were still killable if you're a good enough player. Requiems don't require skill, it's just a pure RNG mechanic that even if you grinded all the murmurs, still punishes you because if you don't get the right order, you're screwed.

This whole concept was bad from the beginning. It's really baffling how they thought it was a good idea to implement something like this. I mean, I get the sentiment, it makes the players spend more time in-game, but it's such a predatory tactic, that I feel uncomfortable at best when I engage this system.

the concept wasn't really the problem, the implementation is what is a flaming trash pile.

it's disconected rng over rng, which in turn makes for a poor experience. I´ve done one lich, that's it. since the next one came with a bafflingly bad weapon, and entrenched in a planet where nothing happens, I am happy to just let it exists and have zero interaction with the system. why? because I have to farm relics in a side mission to crack open and see if I got something, then go try it on the litch, and see if I don't have to grind some more. I'd rather spend my limited play time doing anything else, like just opening regular relics for primes I don´t have while working on my railjack (which is another topic, I'm mostly solo player so there is Zero point in me actually going out of my way to go for railjack right now.... Ironically, The Litches where suposed to be a Solo player heaven).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Create New...