Basmu is awful please buff

[Savire510]

26 minutes ago, coverU4ever said:

After fully empties the magazine, basmu will have 2second to change the magazine, and at the same time, it will do 3 blood sucking at the same time. The blood healing damage gradually increases with the wave damage and the range. The first 3 blood healing damage is very low, through MOD:Tainted Mag can increase the RELOAD time so that basmu can do more healing times. If u hav a riven with neg of reload speed,3positive 1neg -39~41% ur basmu can do 10times. 2positive and 1neg of reload speed can do 6~7times. THESE overhealings can cuz amazing damage the more waves it does the higher damage it does. 

This is a bug with Arcane Avenger with infinite scalling thats allows you to deal a whooping 218 billion damage

It's getting fixed in the next patch so hide your formas and basmus and rivens because its not gonna live forever.

[THeMooN85]

It's gonna be nerf fix in next hotfix or so.

[lukinu_u]

Haven't further tested, but from the number I've got with different mods setups, it sounds like each wave take the previous wave damage and multiply it with base damage mods.
So for example, if you have serration on (base damage is 10) :

• 1st wave deal 10*(1+1.65)=26.5
• 2nd wave deal 26.5*(1+1.65)=70.23
• 3rd wave deal 70.225*(1+1.65)=186.09

Overall, it mean the damage per wave is 10*(1+<base damage mods>)^<wave number*> (wave number is the actual position of the wave, not the total wave number, so 10th wave will get a "wave number" of 10)
It definitely sounds like a broken unwanted scaling to me (especially if you add Chroma to the equation, and it probably will be fixed somewhat soon.

[Savire510]

52 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Haven't further tested, but from the number I've got with different mods setups, it sounds like each wave take the previous wave damage and multiply it with base damage mods.
So for example, if you have serration on (base damage is 10) :

• 1st wave deal 10*(1+1.65)=26.5
• 2nd wave deal 26.5*(1+1.65)=70.23
• 3rd wave deal 70.225*(1+1.65)=186.09

Overall, it mean the damage per wave is 10*(1+<base damage mods>)^<wave number*> (wave number is the actual position of the wave, not the total wave number, so 10th wave will get a "wave number" of 10)
It definitely sounds like a broken unwanted scaling to me (especially if you add Chroma to the equation, and it probably will be fixed somewhat soon.

Add up invisibility/damage buffs and crits. Also using Firestorm mod with every wave range of the pulse increases.

Look at this insanity. This has to get fixed asap

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1zC4y1s7oe

Edited April 22, 2020 by Savire510

[lukinu_u]

Il y a 2 heures, Savire510 a dit :

Add up invisibility/damage buffs and crits. Also using Firestorm mod with every wave range of the pulse increases.

Look at this insanity. This has to get fixed asap

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1zC4y1s7oe

Tested with Chroma and crit to end up with this :

I deal a 466601344 red crit, which try to heal me for x10 that value (4666013440) and the game kill me instead because the variable loop back and deal damage instead of healing.

Edited April 22, 2020 by lukinu_u

[Colyeses]

While this is likely an error with each wave taking the previous wave's end-value as its base (Not just damage, crit chance and range as well, try Firestorm), I do hope that this bug will be reigned in, but also considered as a permanent feature for the Basmu. As broken as it can be, it takes some set-up and conditionality to make it really go broken, and I have to admit that this mechanism is one of the most entertaining ones I have seen in Warframe for the past year or so. I haven't had this much fun with the game in a very long time.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 5 minutes, Colyeses a dit :

While this is likely an error with each wave taking the previous wave's end-value as its base (Not just damage, crit chance and range as well, try Firestorm), I do hope that this bug will be reigned in, but also considered as a permanent feature for the Basmu. As broken as it can be, it takes some set-up and conditionality to make it really go broken, and I have to admit that this mechanism is one of the most entertaining ones I have seen in Warframe for the past year or so. I haven't had this much fun with the game in a very long time.

Sadly, this is why it should be fixed. The thing is useless unless you build around it, but once you do it the scaling is absurd and completely break the game.

The exact same situation happened to stacking stealth, old melee crit with bloodrush, condition overload exponential stacking, negative crit, etc...
All of these were underrated at firs, because they are strong only if you understand what you're doing and mod corretly, but once you do it you just just break the game with absurd values and it become the best option for every situation and it's not good.
It's fun when you discover them, but it's bad for the overall game experience that would encourage you using these broken mechanics to cheese everything.

[lukinu_u]

lmao

Citation

Fixed the Basmu's healing pulse receiving exponential copies of equipped Mods with each pulse when under the effect of some conditional buffs, which led to unintended amounts of damage.

 

[(PSN)True_Reclaimer]

The Basmu now is completely useless, rather than being niche usable due to the exponentially stacking pulse

It is STILL BROKEN on reload in the air, or jumping/rolling/stagger, all of which stop and prevent the healing pulses

Instead of nerfing the healing pulse damage, DE should've just toned down the damage numbers on the pulse, and let it remain a strong feature.

Currently the pulse does nothing at all after the "fix" - often dealing less than 10 damage

The base stats for bullets and beam both need severe buffs- magazine is too low, constantly reloading, crit is too low, projectiles too slow AND they self stagger... 

Worst part of Basmu? No option to select fire modes by clicking the secondary fire button. Instead 2nd fire must be held down, which makes it impossible to shoot and aim on a controller, since that is both bound on right thumb stick

The whole weapon is disappointing, broken, useless, and not accessibility friendly. Feels awful for an earned event reward

DE please ACTUALLY fix it!

 

PS - Convectrix and a few others need to have selectable fire modes rather than holding down 2nd, as well.

[Colyeses]

Yes, the end-result of the scaling mechanism overshot by so much that it could cause integer overflows, and that is pretty much impossible to justify. No weapon should break the game to this extent, especially since it also kills the player if it does this.

However!

To remove the Basmu's reload mechanism scaling outright, as opposed to reigning it in, is a misstep. More important than having the Basmu be a strong weapon is that it was a fun weapon. This new form of scaling opened doors and possibilities that would otherwise have remained unexplored. I never would've picked up Arcane Avenger if not for the Basmu benefiting from it so strongly. And I was excited about the prospect of a -reload Riven precisely because it would've made the weapon more entertaining. 

The Basmu's reload should come back as a viable combat option. Nerfing it is unavoidable, but returning it to a state that is so underwhelming that it might as well not exist at all is a missed opportunity. It should be reworked and re-introduced as a viable combat mechanism, to bring the Basmu back to enjoyable, viable play.

Let's do some maths!

Spoiler

Before the nerf, as I understand it, every subsequent wave of Basmu's reload would build upon the previous one. With just Heavy Caliber and Serration, it would gain +300% per wave.

Wave 1: 10 x4 = 40

Wave 2: 40 x4 = 160

Wave 3: 160 x4 = 640

Let's assume basic, 100% crit chance at 2x crit multiplier.

Wave 1: 10 x4 x2 = 80

Wave 2: 70 x4 x2 = 640

Wave 3: 490 x4 x2 = 5120

Add in Vital Sense, to bring the multiplier to 4.4x.

Wave 1: 10 x4 x4.4 = 176

Wave 2: 142 x4 x4.4 = 3097.6

Wave 3: 2016.4 x4 x4.4 = 54,517.76

That's on yellow crits. Let's do the lowest red crit tier, which brings the crit multiplier up to 11.2.

Wave 1: 10 x4 x11.2 = 448

Wave 2: 346 x4 x11.2 = 20,070.4

Wave 3: 11,971.6 x4 x11.2 = 899,153.92

 

This is where the game starts to break down, especially when you consider that with one mod, Tainted Mag, the number of waves on reload goes up from 3 to 5. Which, in the last case, would get us damage waves of roughly 40.2 million and 1.8 billion damage for waves 4 and 5. Yes, this is too much, as the crit scaling could go even further out of hand due to it not stopping at the lowest red-crit tier.

What happens if we take +damage out of the equation? That removes a x4 in the scaling across the board. Taking the highest situation we just went through, the tier 3 red crit, the multiplier drops from 44.8 to 11.2.

Wave 1: 112

Wave 2: 1254.4

Wave 3: 14,049.28

Wave 4: 157,351.936

Wave 5: 1,762,341.6832 

This immediately looks a lot more reasonable, considering this requires an extended reload time and consistent 300% crit chance on a weapon that has -no- base crit chance. 

Spoiler TL;DR: Exponential scaling causes problems around wave 5 with +300% damage, +120% crit multiplier and 300% crit chance. This culminates into a fifth wave of 1.8 billion damage if Tainted Mag is used. If the +300% damage is taken out, however, the damage drops to 1.7 million on wave 5. 

I feel that this is a moderately fair damage point due to the weapon requiring an external, hard crit chance amplifier in order to reach these crits. 

That said, this is all revolving around crits, which are difficult to distinguish. Especially if the +crit chance of Point Strike is also added exponentially, which would likely result in far higher crit tiers. However, this does prove something of a point: If the +damage mods were not counted, and the maximum crit chance for the Basmu was hard-capped at 300%, it would have a strong fifth wave, but not scale out of control. A sixth wave would deal 19.7 million, and a seventh would deal 221 million. It would take far longer to go out of bounds.

The point I'm trying to make here is that, with some numerical jiggery-pokery, it would entirely be possible to have the Basmu's reload function as a powerful weapon without going too far out of bounds. What bugs me the most about the way the Basmu was handled is that the way it worked (Number of waves dependent on -reload speed, no innate crit means you need another source) completely turned the mod system and the way we play with it on its head in a very fun and refreshing way, and it was just clipped. Just... Poof. Gone. 

Even with the way status effects were changed, we still have the same base rule for weapons: Get some +DMG, stack crits, add elemental damage. Multiply, multiply, multiply. Everything else is fluff, or maybe there's a weapon that requires a mod here or there, like a reload fix for the Chakkhurr. The Bugsmu was the first weapon to introduce an alternative damage scaling component, and it was a lot of fun to toy around with and consider, and I definitely want to see it make a return appearance. 

How can this be done? Well, via a variety of ways. Rule number one, of course, will be to keep a tight lid on the scaling so that it doesn't go -too- far out of bounds. But beyond that, there's more that you can do! Some suggestions...

• Make the number of waves dependent on a specific action or feat, such as having every headshot increase reload time by X.
• Increase the damage multiplier, based on the number of status effects a target has. (Or damage resistances, in the case of the Sentient)
• Restore it in its old form but kick out one of the many legs it was standing on to rein it in, such as removing the base damage increase mods from the calculation.

Overall, the Basmu was a momentary glimpse into a fun new mechanism with a conditionality that made it fun and exciting to play with. Even if it could not continue in its current state, I think DE should take this bug and study its gameplay impact, to consider what parts of it are actually worth keeping, and try to figure out a way to recapture the joy that the Bugsmu brought for the duration of its limited lifespan.

[Univarous]

I feel like I missed some Exploit/OP power with the Basmu. Did it do some scaling damage or something?

[Podge]

3 minutes ago, TheGreatKazein said:

I feel like I missed some Exploit/OP power with the Basmu. Did it do some scaling damage or something?

i didnt actually use the thing but i know it had a special attack when you emptied the battery that made radial waves of health stealing. sounds like there was some sort of creative shenanigans involving that and critical hits and reload speeds.

[Colyeses]

1 hour ago, TheGreatKazein said:

I feel like I missed some Exploit/OP power with the Basmu. Did it do some scaling damage or something?

If you empty a Basmu's clip entirely, then for the duration of its reload, it would send out pulses. There was a bug that made each pulse's base stat line the end-statline of the previous pulse. So if you had Firestorm for +24% range, the first wave would have 124% range, the next would have over 148% range, etc.

This also affected +damage mods like Serration, and +Crit chance mods like Point Strike, although the waves had an innate crit chance of 0%.

Basically, if you had +Damage, +crit mods and some external crit booster like Arcane Avenger or Covenant, it would scale waves really quickly. You know, x4, x16, x64, etc. 

Couple that with -reload speed increasing the number of waves, and you could get -billions- of damage over an entire map cell at the tail end of a reload.

[Univarous]

Holy....

[Swiza]

basmu hits like a wet noodle

[AltairFerenc]

I'm using that thing a lot because it's fun, even on lvl5 Lich missions(that starts 90-100lvl) and I don't have any problem with it, I don't see it being weak(sure its not that good aginst liches themselfs but against anythineg else its good) If you compare everything to the top tier weapons ofc it's weak god dammit.

[Althaline]

Wait, you're saying the Basmu's reload attack actually worked for you guys?

[bubbabenali]

And I always thought to myself why all the enemies melted every time I reloaded...

[Catomb]

 

This weapon had a real problem! for having tested for a few days the expodential mechanics was a real atomic bomb! and even after removing the critical, I still do millions of damage !

the pulsations have the role of controlling and regenerating. For damage, you have to look at the shooting modes. No weapon should achieve such potential alone...

 

 

 

[3allvalve]

There are many weapons and frames that should SO be buffed in the eyes of... me, but after a minimum of research I came to the conclusion, hey, I can skip this one. [laughing and pointing at you]

[SashaReds]

It’s a fun weapon. Especially when bullets ricochet. Once maxed out it can be a formidable weapon till like 30-40lvl. After that the gun starts struggling. It’s completely unusable in Scarlet Spear after 50-60lvl. You might as well just sit and mediate and bring Mk1-Braton

i think life steal has to be buffed for sure. And more crit wouldn’t hurt. 

A weapon has to be viable on its own without arcane, team of buffs or any other trickery. These are there to maximise not to complement. IMO

Edited April 24, 2020 by SashaReds

[Redlove108]

It does fine against normal enemies but against sentients it is a horrible.

Against 100+ enemies it starts having issues and can't keep up. So definitely not useful in Scarlet Spear.

[crashapple12]

i think we can also talk about all the various issues the weapon has outside of its raw damage

for example, its alt fire has no minimum damage falloff on its arc beams *let alone its lack of general alt fire damage* leading to it being fully capable of doing 0 damage

see DPS dummies on the right

its reload pulse mechanic has been heavily bugged since launch
with its supposedly "fixed" damage issues but also

magazine capacity changes the quantity of pulses the weapon makes and reload speed does not change the time it takes for the pulses to stop
leading you into being technically reloaded but stuck in its reload animation waiting out the extra pulses
at least i think that's whats causing it

let alone its general tiny magazine capacity
poor alt fire damage
its inability to use beam range mods
inability to use various explosive weapon mods *while technically being an explosive weapon*
somewhat under performing primary fire *though not much*

love the weapon, massive fan of sentient tech weapons (would be nice if phantasma had the unlimited ammo+reload pulse mechanic that shedu/basmu has)
but man this thing has issues

[(PSN)LoneWolf_001]

On 2020-03-26 at 3:59 PM, SpringRocker said:

It's not a crit weapon, just wanted to point that out.

I don't think the crit potential should be disreguarded. It's a fair weapon and can do well as a status-crit hybrid. No, it's not a crit monster, which I think is the original poster's complaint. I do think the Alt fire needs crit chance to even be remotely viable or a much higher base damage. IDK, it's a creative weapon with some decent gimmics. It reloads faster if you don't empty the mag, only do that if you're low on HP.

[(PSN)LoneWolf_001]

On 2020-04-23 at 1:47 AM, Colyeses said:

Yes, the end-result of the scaling mechanism overshot by so much that it could cause integer overflows, and that is pretty much impossible to justify. No weapon should break the game to this extent, especially since it also kills the player if it does this.

However!

To remove the Basmu's reload mechanism scaling outright, as opposed to reigning it in, is a misstep. More important than having the Basmu be a strong weapon is that it was a fun weapon. This new form of scaling opened doors and possibilities that would otherwise have remained unexplored. I never would've picked up Arcane Avenger if not for the Basmu benefiting from it so strongly. And I was excited about the prospect of a -reload Riven precisely because it would've made the weapon more entertaining. 

The Basmu's reload should come back as a viable combat option. Nerfing it is unavoidable, but returning it to a state that is so underwhelming that it might as well not exist at all is a missed opportunity. It should be reworked and re-introduced as a viable combat mechanism, to bring the Basmu back to enjoyable, viable play.

Let's do some maths!

  Hide contents

Before the nerf, as I understand it, every subsequent wave of Basmu's reload would build upon the previous one. With just Heavy Caliber and Serration, it would gain +300% per wave.

Wave 1: 10 x4 = 40

Wave 2: 40 x4 = 160

Wave 3: 160 x4 = 640

Let's assume basic, 100% crit chance at 2x crit multiplier.

Wave 1: 10 x4 x2 = 80

Wave 2: 70 x4 x2 = 640

Wave 3: 490 x4 x2 = 5120

Add in Vital Sense, to bring the multiplier to 4.4x.

Wave 1: 10 x4 x4.4 = 176

Wave 2: 142 x4 x4.4 = 3097.6

Wave 3: 2016.4 x4 x4.4 = 54,517.76

That's on yellow crits. Let's do the lowest red crit tier, which brings the crit multiplier up to 11.2.

Wave 1: 10 x4 x11.2 = 448

Wave 2: 346 x4 x11.2 = 20,070.4

Wave 3: 11,971.6 x4 x11.2 = 899,153.92

 

This is where the game starts to break down, especially when you consider that with one mod, Tainted Mag, the number of waves on reload goes up from 3 to 5. Which, in the last case, would get us damage waves of roughly 40.2 million and 1.8 billion damage for waves 4 and 5. Yes, this is too much, as the crit scaling could go even further out of hand due to it not stopping at the lowest red-crit tier.

What happens if we take +damage out of the equation? That removes a x4 in the scaling across the board. Taking the highest situation we just went through, the tier 3 red crit, the multiplier drops from 44.8 to 11.2.

Wave 1: 112

Wave 2: 1254.4

Wave 3: 14,049.28

Wave 4: 157,351.936

Wave 5: 1,762,341.6832 

This immediately looks a lot more reasonable, considering this requires an extended reload time and consistent 300% crit chance on a weapon that has -no- base crit chance. 

Spoiler TL;DR: Exponential scaling causes problems around wave 5 with +300% damage, +120% crit multiplier and 300% crit chance. This culminates into a fifth wave of 1.8 billion damage if Tainted Mag is used. If the +300% damage is taken out, however, the damage drops to 1.7 million on wave 5. 

I feel that this is a moderately fair damage point due to the weapon requiring an external, hard crit chance amplifier in order to reach these crits. 

That said, this is all revolving around crits, which are difficult to distinguish. Especially if the +crit chance of Point Strike is also added exponentially, which would likely result in far higher crit tiers. However, this does prove something of a point: If the +damage mods were not counted, and the maximum crit chance for the Basmu was hard-capped at 300%, it would have a strong fifth wave, but not scale out of control. A sixth wave would deal 19.7 million, and a seventh would deal 221 million. It would take far longer to go out of bounds.

The point I'm trying to make here is that, with some numerical jiggery-pokery, it would entirely be possible to have the Basmu's reload function as a powerful weapon without going too far out of bounds. What bugs me the most about the way the Basmu was handled is that the way it worked (Number of waves dependent on -reload speed, no innate crit means you need another source) completely turned the mod system and the way we play with it on its head in a very fun and refreshing way, and it was just clipped. Just... Poof. Gone. 

Even with the way status effects were changed, we still have the same base rule for weapons: Get some +DMG, stack crits, add elemental damage. Multiply, multiply, multiply. Everything else is fluff, or maybe there's a weapon that requires a mod here or there, like a reload fix for the Chakkhurr. The Bugsmu was the first weapon to introduce an alternative damage scaling component, and it was a lot of fun to toy around with and consider, and I definitely want to see it make a return appearance. 

How can this be done? Well, via a variety of ways. Rule number one, of course, will be to keep a tight lid on the scaling so that it doesn't go -too- far out of bounds. But beyond that, there's more that you can do! Some suggestions...

• Make the number of waves dependent on a specific action or feat, such as having every headshot increase reload time by X.
• Increase the damage multiplier, based on the number of status effects a target has. (Or damage resistances, in the case of the Sentient)
• Restore it in its old form but kick out one of the many legs it was standing on to rein it in, such as removing the base damage increase mods from the calculation.

Overall, the Basmu was a momentary glimpse into a fun new mechanism with a conditionality that made it fun and exciting to play with. Even if it could not continue in its current state, I think DE should take this bug and study its gameplay impact, to consider what parts of it are actually worth keeping, and try to figure out a way to recapture the joy that the Bugsmu brought for the duration of its limited lifespan.

<------This guy. Why is this guy not reviewing weapons in Warframe directly for DE? Great post.