Please stop adding entirely new gameplay systems for a couple years and just fix the core

[xXDeadsinxX]

6 minutes ago, Savire510 said:

Forgeting about the bugs, imagine opening relics in space while you are getting attacked by your kuva lich with his own fleet of ships. And at the same time your own converted lich sits behind your cannons.

That’d definitely be interesting not gonna lie.

7 minutes ago, Reifnir said:

It's as if Warframe development is a never ending loop of:

1) Hey, so I've got this crazy novel idea, how about we implement it!

2) So yeah, I've never though past the rough sketch, just bare bones, not really thought through, too, but hey, we'll think of something later, TIME TO LAUNCH IT!

3) Maybe we should allocate that one guy who seems to have free time in between tasks to "fix" it. Maybe. In other news, I came up with another crazy novel idea!..

...

I mean, I haven't been with Warframe from the very start, no. I started what, right before Update 13 or so, so spring 2014. Still quite a bit of time. And somehow they just don't seem to learn that stacking cool-but-unfinished ideas on top of each other forever and ever does NOT make a solid game. It works somehow, but the whole thing is looking more and more like a house of cards. Maybe it's about time to sit back and rethink stuff hard? As in, right about NOW, before the whole "venture comes crashing down around you" © Glast? Pretty please? 

Been here since 2014 as well, November to be exact, and what you said is 100% accurate. I’m all for them to have ideas and such, but fix/polish the older content first and then move onto the next idea.

Edited April 16, 2020 by xXDeadsinxX

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

I agree with the core stuff so much that I made my own update where DE takes what they already have, and bring it up to par with what they showed us not one but two TennoCons ago

[keikogi]

But do people even want the content to fixed?

Fixing the player damage curve and the enemy damage and durability curve would be paintfull 

Fixing the energy system behind skills would be polemic 

There is stuff that someone is on the same page like Fixing the new players experience. 

Or fixing bugs 

Or polishing the game 

 

 

[Urlan]

For what its worth, the request of this thread is what has mostly been happening lately, thus the folk saying there has been a content drought. We have been having a lot of reworks and tweaks, visual reworks or tweaks; that is polishing and not "releasing new content".

[xXDeadsinxX]

2 minutes ago, Urlan said:

For what its worth, the request of this thread is what has mostly been happening lately, thus the folk saying there has been a content drought. We have been having a lot of reworks and tweaks, visual reworks or tweaks; that is polishing and not "releasing new content".

True to an extent, visual tweaks are fine. Though, we’re talking about the last 3 big disappointing mainline updates (The Old Blood, Railjack, Scarlet Spear) and the years of content that they’ve abandoned in an broken and unpolished state.

[Aldain]

...A couple of months, sure.

A couple of YEARS?

I know they have a lot to fix but I cannot see it taking literal years to fix everything, if it would they should just shut down Warframe and make something else.

[Urlan]

1 minute ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

True to an extent, visual tweaks are fine. Though, we’re talking about the last 3 big disappointing mainline updates (The Old Blood, Railjack, Scarlet Spear) and the years of content that they’ve abandoned in an broken and unpolished state.

Due to focusing on tweaks of older stuff, instead of making new content and making sure those rare new contents were polished upfront. To be fair, Old Blood was originally the Nemesis and Kingpin system so its not like that mode was 'rushed', its been over 3 years. Railjack has a shorter time of baking but was originally teased with the Tennocon that showed off Fortuna while Scarlet Spear or the story build-up that it was supposed to have has been a long time in the waiting though admittedly its the quickest from tease to release so far mechanically.

[Savire510]

12 minutes ago, Urlan said:

For what its worth, the request of this thread is what has mostly been happening lately, thus the folk saying there has been a content drought.

About that, sometimes i think one of the problems actually slowing down this proccess of improving the game is the community of Warframe. Wow,wow what ?

We ( as a whole community) are like children with short attention span. We need new toys every day, we lose interest with one too quickly. DE said more than once that the life of Warframe hangs on the huge, ambitious updates and since Warframe is their only game its their jobs on the line. This has left its mark on how DE updates this game. This created this unhealthy process where DE sprints through updates not really having time to gasp for breath, and when they try people scream "Content drought!"

We can't really be pleased no matter what DE does.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by Savire510

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

4 minutes ago, Savire510 said:

About that, sometimes i think one of the problems actually slowing down this proccess of improving the game is the community of Warframe. Wow,wow what ?

We ( as a whole community) are like children with short attention span. We need new toys every day, we lose interest with one too quickly. DE said more than once that the life of Warframe hangs on the huge, ambitious updates and since Warframe is their only game its their jobs on the line. This has left its mark on how DE updates this game. This created this unhealthy process where DE sprints through updates not really having time to gasp for breath, and when they try people scream "Content drought!"

We can't really be pleased no matter what DE does.

 

That's what I've been saying, they are both at fault.

Because DE doesn't know what it wants for its game, neither does the community. And because the community doesn't know what it wants, neither will DE.

[xXDeadsinxX]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...A couple of months, sure.

A couple of YEARS?

I know they have a lot to fix but I cannot see it taking literal years to fix everything, if it would they should just shut down Warframe and make something else.

I didn’t mean that it would take years to fix, I meant that they have not fixed/polished certain content for more than a few years now. However, if it did actually take years for them to fix the content, than that’d be solely on them for making the game it is today.

4 minutes ago, Urlan said:

Due to focusing on tweaks of older stuff, instead of making new content and making sure those rare new contents were polished upfront. To be fair, Old Blood was originally the Nemesis and Kingpin system so its not like that mode was 'rushed', its been over 3 years. Railjack has a shorter time of baking but was originally teased with the Tennocon that showed off Fortuna while Scarlet Spear or the story build-up that it was supposed to have has been a long time in the waiting though admittedly its the quickest from tease to release so far mechanically.

True, Old Blood wasn’t necessarily a rushed update per say, but the Lich system even to this say still needs so much polishing though. As for Railjack, it only has been out for a few months but also needs a lot of polishing as well. The question is will Railjack get polished enough or will DE fix some of it and then go to the next project like they always do? That’s the question.

[Brynslustafir]

11 minutes ago, Aldain said:

...A couple of months, sure.

A couple of YEARS?

I know they have a lot to fix but I cannot see it taking literal years to fix everything, if it would they should just shut down Warframe and make something else.

Even when there aren't any major obstructions the project directors like to really take their time. It used to be because they were using that time to take in player feedback, but I'm not so sure that's still true. 

[keikogi]

11 minutes ago, Savire510 said:

About that, sometimes i think one of the problems actually slowing down this proccess of improving the game is the community of Warframe. Wow,wow what ?

We ( as a whole community) are like children with short attention span. We need new toys every day, we lose interest with one too quickly. DE said more than once that the life of Warframe hangs on the huge, ambitious updates and since Warframe is their only game its their jobs on the line. This has left its mark on how DE updates this game. This created this unhealthy process where DE sprints through updates not really having time to gasp for breath, and when they try people scream "Content drought!"

We can't really be pleased no matter what DE does.

 

In any game the ‘immunity always seems unpleasable because everyone wants something afferent so whenever something happens someone will be pleased and stay silent ( people happy with the current situation don´t voice their opinions because they don´t have a reason too) while people are displeased and voice their opinions. It is the job of the community managers to understand the seemingly incoherent voice and understand the wishes of the average player.

The community is explicitly unruly now because consecutive disappointment.

 

 

[xXDeadsinxX]

24 minutes ago, Savire510 said:

About that, sometimes i think one of the problems actually slowing down this proccess of improving the game is the community of Warframe. Wow,wow what ?

We ( as a whole community) are like children with short attention span. We need new toys every day, we lose interest with one too quickly. DE said more than once that the life of Warframe hangs on the huge, ambitious updates and since Warframe is their only game its their jobs on the line. This has left its mark on how DE updates this game. This created this unhealthy process where DE sprints through updates not really having time to gasp for breath, and when they try people scream "Content drought!"

We can't really be pleased no matter what DE does.

 

Fair enough, but I do think this mentality has actually changed quite a lot in the community, including myself. I will admit, I was one of the people who would also scream content drought, but that was over a year ago. You can look on the Forums, Twitter, YouTube, Reddit, a lot of the community has something in common these days, they want DE to finally start polishing old content.

Now I’m not saying players don’t want new content, there are still players going to be playing wanting to have new shiny toys and such. But DE will have to make the ultimate decision if they want to fix old content or just keep pushing out new content.

Edited April 16, 2020 by xXDeadsinxX

[CopperBezel]

Revised happened, and while quite a lot of people are very upset about individual changes, I think it certainly represents positive change overall and attention to making the core gameplay work. Those changes are going to be divisive no matter what, because players invested in the game will always be attached to different parts of it and it will always take time to adjust regardless. Since DE had to expect that, I also think it's a good sign that they chose to go forward with a set of changes like that anyway; we certainly don't want them to be building their game according to whoever complains the loudest with no vision of their own for how all the parts actually fit together. 

Liches and Railjack baffle me though. I just don't understand what was the purpose of so much investment in things that seemed to add so little. 

[True_Naeblis]

1 hour ago, Brynslustafir said:

If any devs actually read this, Please stop overreaching. Take up a more reasonable workload and place your focus squarely upon it. The last thing you or I need right now is another distraction to take us away from the honestly Golden core gameplay system. You have the slickest core gameplay engine outside of an Arena Shooter, but you keep moving further and further away from it, That's not what Warframe needs right now, and this obvious over-ambition has me worried for this games future. I want to watch this game thrive, but this overextended ambition is hurting more than it helps. 

I agree with everything but what I bolded. The engine is very much another issue this game has. It is very much not built for all of what Warframe offers and it's why there are so many issues with the social aspects of the game. Hanging out in any of the limited player instance hubs or doing open world shows in stark detail how bad it is.

That said I'd be more than fine surviving it if that were the one glaring issue with the game, and sadly everything else you pointed out is very, very true. They've ignored, shut down, or banned people who made these very points over the past few years. The bottom line is, however, that they're not going to listen to you either. As long as players keep pumping dollars into the system as is, why would they ever change a thing? I know you've seen others making the very arguments you are, yet here we are.

Until players become serious enough to stop spending on a game that doesn't value their time and plays as the ultimate grinder to keep people invested nothing will ever, ever, ever change. Would you change anything if your status quo of pumping out broken content were helping you rake in hundreds of millions a year?

[Femuru]

i told ppl during the "content drought" way b4 that the issue was in the core game that there are too many fundamental mistakes for anything to work, barely anyone believe me (proceed to stare at how every content release last for less than a week, numbers slowly drop, community draws less tolerance). i told ppl blindly defending the game and saying to leave rather than engaging in topics would only again slowly drop numbers and lower player tolerance that in the end slowly end up in even more broken content (i kid you not i saw this coming). i told DE a couple years ago quit releasing frames for just a year (not a few) and start getting organized or the work for when they actually need to fix stuff will only get 10x harder and so forth but no one believed it till it was too late~

this is what its like when you try to stack concrete on sticks and itll just break apart. sadly alot of ppl dont even know what is wrong at the core and from time to time i see ppl give ideas at random without seeing why anything doesnt seem to work in the first place cuz again how many modes, maps, stuff in general have they released that just strike out? alot. in the end this still falls on DE and they need to start organizing (not write a white board that probly no one at the office even look at) cuz at this point they need multiple teams for-

Team for modding/scaling: mods are a nightmare of a mess with rivens making things 10x worse on release, they should of used flat numbers or else everything will be impossible to balance, adjust, or change anything at all that wont end up a cheesing contest. they should of had each planet go by lvl 10, next lvl 20, and so forth till it hit a cap with mods having stuff only adding something like plus 100 rather than 100% (and fix the double, triple, or even quadruple dipped numbers).

Team for damage system: at this point it is really a bloated mess cuz many are really pointless while others is end all be all factor. in my opinion remove stuff like blast, magnetic, corrosive, and gas BUT make the primary elements GOOD (obviously fixed scaling is a must for this to work or we just go back to snoozing gameplay). make stuff like slash based on that damage type number alone while making puncture and impact good following the same principle. 

Team for movement system: a GOOD movement system is understanding when it should feel subtle and when it should feel impactful to its gameplay setting but warframes case is that i made it across the map in 3.5 secs while eating a sandwich or im camping in a corner for 10 years. i said they should of looked at vanquish for reference since its older yet somehow more flushed out but also can relate on how to give a intense movement system.

Team for gunplay design: seriously play any actual shooter and u can find so many flaws already while other games care about ttk, we just care about big numbers cuz thats the design of the game (sorry scott simulacrum or not its still the same dull gameplay but one is just faster to get decent enemies). even something as small as reticles is important to shooters but nope warframe cares zip for any aspect of it being a shooter.

Team for melee design: AGAIN somehow this needs going back on to fix properly in many ways more than one. pick on a design philosophy already if you want it horde style then look at how horde style games function rather than spamming a button (even dynasty warriors took more skill than going beyblade spin to win). if you want impactful melee combos then design enemies to use it that way but again make a choice for once!

Team for frame roster: seriously ppl need to learn that balance isnt just "who stronger than who" its how you create the overall gameplay loop. if i play a mmo for example imagine that hey tanks are actually useless cuz they have no purpose, it isnt so easy to shrug that off. warframe needs to start breaking the frames to categories and creating/fixing the purpose of use for them rather than "i only use zephyr in open world". plus either throw away nuking or give everyone mobile cookie clicker and stay consistent with something, anything for once!

Team for enemy design: we known this for many years now but enemies are badly designed from dumb ai mob that feel like im bullying ants to a nully that negates everything in a non engaging combat loop. they need to work with how frames functions, how can they subtly counter different types without making it a end all be all like nullies, combat systems that make you try to some or any small degree not a boring nuke fest to one shot or be one shot cheese fest.

if anyone actually read this wall text then i commend you but here is the jist of it, these are just the basics of basics in many game designs but just for being the basics look at how much they need fixing, on top of several more others stuff they need to look at but these are just the starting grounds. ive seen ppl talk about DE should sell their game away to a bigger company, my younger self would be no but now just seeing the facts they dug the hole too big that they realistically cant get anything done anymore. rn its either a slow slope downward with DE with barely a chance at redemption or it goes to a company thatll either make/break it. personally i rather see the another take over cuz if it fail then atleast itll be a leech ripped off but if it succeed then the game has a chance for another 10 years rather than 2 and atleast DE wont have to grow more gray hairs while compensation from the game is safe for them to live off of.

Edited April 16, 2020 by SutomuDrgn

[Brynslustafir]

1 hour ago, SutomuDrgn said:

i told ppl during the "content drought" way b4 that the issue was in the core game that there are too many fundamental mistakes for anything to work, barely anyone believe me (proceed to stare at how every content release last for less than a week, numbers slowly drop, community draws less tolerance). i told ppl blindly defending the game and saying to leave rather than engaging in topics would only again slowly drop numbers and lower player tolerance that in the end slowly end up in even more broken content (i kid you not i saw this coming). i told DE a couple years ago quit releasing frames for just a year (not a few) and start getting organized or the work for when they actually need to fix stuff will only get 10x harder and so forth but no one believed it till it was too late~

this is what its like when you try to stack concrete on sticks and itll just break apart. sadly alot of ppl dont even know what is wrong at the core and from time to time i see ppl give ideas at random without seeing why anything doesnt seem to work in the first place cuz again how many modes, maps, stuff in general have they released that just strike out? alot. in the end this still falls on DE and they need to start organizing (not write a white board that probly no one at the office even look at) cuz at this point they need multiple teams for-

Team for modding/scaling: mods are a nightmare of a mess with rivens making things 10x worse on release, they should of used flat numbers or else everything will be impossible to balance, adjust, or change anything at all that wont end up a cheesing contest. they should of had each planet go by lvl 10, next lvl 20, and so forth till it hit a cap with mods having stuff only adding something like plus 100 rather than 100% (and fix the double, triple, or even quadruple dipped numbers).

Team for damage system: at this point it is really a bloated mess cuz many are really pointless while others is end all be all factor. in my opinion remove stuff like blast, magnetic, corrosive, and gas BUT make the primary elements GOOD (obviously fixed scaling is a must for this to work or we just go back to snoozing gameplay). make stuff like slash based on that damage type number alone while making puncture and impact good following the same principle. 

Team for movement system: a GOOD movement system is understanding when it should feel subtle and when it should feel impactful to its gameplay setting but warframes case is that i made it across the map in 3.5 secs while eating a sandwich or im camping in a corner for 10 years. i said they should of looked at vanquish for reference since its older yet somehow more flushed out but also can relate on how to give a intense movement system.

Team for gunplay design: seriously play any actual shooter and u can find so many flaws already while other games care about ttk, we just care about big numbers cuz thats the design of the game (sorry scott simulacrum or not its still the same dull gameplay but one is just faster to get decent enemies). even something as small as reticles is important to shooters but nope warframe cares zip for any aspect of it being a shooter.

Team for melee design: AGAIN somehow this needs going back on to fix properly in many ways more than one. pick on a design philosophy already if you want it horde style then look at how horde style games function rather than spamming a button (even dynasty warriors took more skill than going beyblade spin to win). if you want impactful melee combos then design enemies to use it that way but again make a choice for once!

Team for frame roster: seriously ppl need to learn that balance isnt just "who stronger than who" its how you create the overall gameplay loop. if i play a mmo for example imagine that hey tanks are actually useless cuz they have no purpose, it isnt so easy to shrug that off. warframe needs to start breaking the frames to categories and creating/fixing the purpose of use for them rather than "i only use zephyr in open world". plus either throw away nuking or give everyone mobile cookie clicker and stay consistent with something, anything for once!

Team for enemy design: we known this for many years now but enemies are badly designed from dumb ai mob that feel like im bullying ants to a nully that negates everything in a non engaging combat loop. they need to work with how frames functions, how can they subtly counter different types without making it a end all be all like nullies, combat systems that make you try to some or any small degree not a boring nuke fest to one shot or be one shot cheese fest.

if anyone actually read this wall text then i commend you but here is the jist of it, these are just the basics of basics in many game designs but just for being the basics look at how much they need fixing, on top of several more others stuff they need to look at but these are just the starting grounds. ive seen ppl talk about DE should sell their game away to a bigger company, my younger self would be no but now just seeing the facts they dug the hole too big that they realistically cant get anything done anymore. rn its either a slow slope downward with DE with barely a chance at redemption or it goes to a company thatll either make/break it. personally i rather see the another take over cuz if it fail then atleast itll be a leech ripped off but if it succeed then the game has a chance for another 10 years rather than 2 and atleast DE wont have to grow more gray hairs while compensation from the game is safe for them to live off of.

You have a solid grasp of the situation. That is commendable.

[TheWhitterMatter]

Everything here has been said for years. DE is clearly just not caring, for some reason. I'd even go as far as to say that they pretended to care, basedo n what I've seen the last two years. I will quit warframe if they haven't improved christmas. It'll be my seventh year by that time. They used to release actual reliable and FUN content. I am done wit the grind. I have a life.

[DatDarkOne]

[Duality52]

The fun analogy for Warframe is DE making a layered cake. They want to stack the cake with bigger and shiner parts each year: Unfortunately, most of the cake is undercooked along with some awful flavor tasting, but as always the cake looks visually stunning on the outside.

While I understand DE needs to make "new" layers of cake, they need to go and fix the undercooked parts of it (think of the Jovian Concord, Saint of Altra, and the Revision this year). It won't take long before the entire cake collapses.

[Zebiko]

Core is just fine. And everything you mentioned isn't part of the core, but are the new addons and islands.

When you ignore the newest updates, the core gameplay is still fun. 

[Urlan]

6 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

I didn’t mean that it would take years to fix, I meant that they have not fixed/polished certain content for more than a few years now. However, if it did actually take years for them to fix the content, than that’d be solely on them for making the game it is today.

True, Old Blood wasn’t necessarily a rushed update per say, but the Lich system even to this say still needs so much polishing though. As for Railjack, it only has been out for a few months but also needs a lot of polishing as well. The question is will Railjack get polished enough or will DE fix some of it and then go to the next project like they always do? That’s the question.

Very good points, I agree.

[CopperBezel]

2 hours ago, Duality52 said:

While I understand DE needs to make "new" layers of cake, they need to go and fix the undercooked parts of it (think of the Jovian Concord, Saint of Altra, and the Revision this year). It won't take long before the entire cake collapses.

This is a good point I hadn't considered -  the Gas City rework, like Revised, was another effort to go back and do the less glamorous fixing and fussing and improving the basic gameplay. Disruption is new "content" but kinda is a part of that scheme too - changing something on the star map instead of adding some other new thing on top. And we got the melee changes dribbled out over a long period to finally hit with the bulk of the changes shipping with the Old Blood. 

It honestly just makes it more baffling to me though. The Gas City rework was successfully pitched as new content because it came with a new game mode and a new frame (coincidentally one of the best new frames we've got in quite some time.) I kinda feel like they could be doing that across the board and fixing problems, rather than giving us new ones with liches and Railjack and so on, while still giving them something to sell. 

[Urlan]

6 hours ago, Savire510 said:

About that, sometimes i think one of the problems actually slowing down this proccess of improving the game is the community of Warframe. Wow,wow what ?

We ( as a whole community) are like children with short attention span. We need new toys every day, we lose interest with one too quickly. DE said more than once that the life of Warframe hangs on the huge, ambitious updates and since Warframe is their only game its their jobs on the line. This has left its mark on how DE updates this game. This created this unhealthy process where DE sprints through updates not really having time to gasp for breath, and when they try people scream "Content drought!"

We can't really be pleased no matter what DE does.

 

On this I disagree. The community has a pretty good idea of the big picture when it isn't trying to focus on something that was already happening. DE has been slowing down content to work on revisions and polish. Its not DE's fault that it isn't going to result in the same polish or the revisions for each person. While content is much easier to see and count. A new Tennogen not content, hek even Old Blood and Railjack have limited content and what came out since Fortuna before? A revision of Jupiter not content. Your statements here lack solid ground.

[Twilight-Knight]

Pfff the obvious.

It's look like they trying to finishing the game - the story, because they see the ending of this game.

As far as I seeing, the time before the sacrifice update is better than the rest of the time after it. There was many of changing to what ??? appearance UI ??? And the memories that the game consume now is almost triple.

WHY ? why they have to colorful everything unnecessary while they can't even provide a solution for issue that existed for years ? I get you bring new things but yet you just have to add a load of functions and effects details change and sometime secret stuns for a few seconds. I could play the game with high setting before but now just low.