How to nuke the inflated riven market without destroying rivens as an income generator for DE, and also improve the kuva/riven grind for players.

[_Connor]

I think at this point it's pretty obvious that DE are reluctant to do much to resolve the obnoxious 'god roll' riven market that is being exploited by groups of traders for insane profits, and inflating the price of rivens to absurd levels. I assume this is because people trading large plat values means players are more likely to buy plat. 
I thought of a simple way to resolve this that i believe would spread those concentrated plat trades over many more players, destroy the toxic and nefarious culture of 'god roll' rivens, and make A LOT of players happy:

When a riven is traded, reroll the stats. This immediately reduces the price of any 'god tier' riven by a huge margin, and means that the only inherent value any riven has is in the weapon it's for. This would also mean that disposition changes won't have nearly as much relative impact on plat prices for 'meta' rivens. 

 This sucks for DE if it's true that such high value trades are responsible for plat purchases, and it sucks for players who don't want to have to grind upwards of 10 million kuva to get a god roll. SO, then allow players to pay platinum to 'lock in' a stat on a riven mod, and increase that price for each successive stat. i.e maybe you roll -zoom on a sniper riven, so you pay 100 plat to 'lock' that stat from being re-rolled. You re-roll a few more times until you hit multishot, now you pay 200 plat to lock that in. Now you're rolling between another 1 or 2 positive stats; if you want 2 more, you pay 400p to lock in a third stat, and any future rolls either generate a random 3rd positive stat or result in no change. 

Now any riven mod with a 'god roll' is worth 700p + [the trade value of that weapon riven with random stats]. This creates a fair platinum sink for DE, rather than allowing market manipulators to hoard wealth, buy up large volumes of high traffic rivens, and manipulate prices. it also allows players who don't have exorbitant amounts of plat to EARN 'god roll' rivens without relying on 0.00001% chance rng (or whatever the odds of a godroll are).

[(NSW)Greybones]

Oooh, interesting thought experiment 🤔. Personally, I’ll be giving this a think through 👍 I reckon a +1 to the idea of rerolling on trade is warranted from me

Edited April 16, 2020 by (NSW)Greybones

[kapn655321]

The ability to roll each individual stat, but keep the kuva cost the same as a whole roll.

I'm not paying plat to make a riven good. Rivens are bandaids for poor weapon balance, and under no circumstances should they support a p2w mechanic.

[_Connor]

6 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The ability to roll each individual stat, but keep the kuva cost the same as a whole roll.

I'm not paying plat to make a riven good. Rivens are bandaids for poor weapon balance, and under no circumstances should they support a p2w mechanic.

You don't HAVE to pay plat to make the riven good, You could simply choose to continue suffering the RNG you currently experience. Or you could pay plat to make it good, as you currently can with other players. The whole game is already a P2W mechanic. Buy plat and you can buy frames and weapons, potatoes for said frames and weapons, maxed out mods for your newly potatoed frames and weapons, maxed arcanes for your frame, boosters to rank it all up faster, forma to make it more powerful. From its very conception wf has been a pay-to-skip game. Rivens are currently p2w, and my idea doesn't change that. Saying 'the system shouldn't be made better because i don't want to have it at all' is reductive. 

[Synpai]

Nein, this is exploit territory.

"Hey new unexperienced/returning player come look at these tasty riven stats you can trade for"
*trades*
"Thanks for the plat"

Riven's are a faulty dam waiting to burst.
-> They were introduced to make lesser used weapons more usable (even though augments existed)???
->They were written off as not being intended to be a form of balance (...intention or not, we know what they are)

Rivens need such a massive overhaul, if not an outright removal that anyone whose invested (unwisely tbf) would be fuming. Sadly they were allowed to sit for too long with little interference or acknowledgement, though the Tonkor situation should have set the stage for the volatility of rivens.

They should've never been tradable in the first place and been more a symbol of progression similar to catalysts from Destiny 2.

Find weapon you like -> Complete challenges (i.e: # combustion beam kills with beam weapons for example), earn certain amount of affinty, etc. and you gain bonuses to the weapon that can be rolled randomly or individually at a higher cost, though ideally flat bonuses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> percent increases because Goth knows the Embolist, for example, would need a massive bonus currently to be even comparable to a top secondary with a like 2 disposition.

Not to mention they argued players should use trial and error to find suitable rivens. Statistical increases shouldn't be ruled out, but definately shouldn't be the end all be all. There are a number of effects that could be tacked on to weapons to make them more interesting: see legendary items in any ARPG.

 

TL;DR: Rivens should be more like augments players can progress for....wouldn't even need to incentivize trading. There's no telling how profitable rivens actually are, since many of the people involved could be sitting on mountains of "old money" and not actually adding new currency into the pool.

[Genitive]

What you're proposing sounds too much like a slot machine.

They require a rework but I don't think that's it.

[_Connor]

Just now, Genitive said:

What you're proposing sounds too much like a slot machine.

They require a rework but I don't think that's it.

literally the opposite of a slot machine. You're paying to reduce rng. This is like saying vaccines 'sound like' a bad idea because mercury is poisonous. 

3 minutes ago, Synpai said:

Nein, this is exploit territory.
 

""Hey new unexperienced/returning player come look at these tasty riven stats you can trade for"
*trades*
"Thanks for the plat""

This is the system that already exists. 

"Rivens need such a massive overhaul, if not an outright removal that anyone whose invested (unwisely tbf) would be fuming."

No matter what changes are made to reduce inflated riven values, those unwise people will be mad. I'm not proposing a 'fix' for the way rivens fit into the meta / core gameplay, but a way to remove the means for trade manipulators to abuse the market and inflate prices. 

[Genitive]

2 minutes ago, _Connor said:

literally the opposite of a slot machine. You're paying to reduce rng. This is like saying vaccines 'sound like' a bad idea because mercury is poisonous. 

Rivens aren't vaccines and comparing your idea to them won't make your argument any more sound.

If you disagree with me then fine, but paying real money for locking randomized stats sounds like pay-to-win.

@kapn655321 and @Synpai had better ideas in my opinion.

[_Connor]

3 minutes ago, Genitive said:

Rivens aren't vaccines and comparing your idea to them won't make your argument any more sound.

If you disagree with me then fine, but paying real money for locking randomized stats sounds like pay-to-win.

@kapn655321 and @Synpai had better ideas in my opinion.

I'm comparing the logic of something that is the antithesis of a slot machine being a slot machine, to the logic of the arguments used to justify anti-vaxxing. i.e there is none. 'pay to win' isn't 'slot machine', and the game is already pay to win. I'm not disagreeing with you; what you said is just factually wrong. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by _Connor

[kapn655321]

27 minutes ago, _Connor said:

The whole game is

You make a fair point about your suggestion being more of the acceptable, 'pay to shirk the grind,' so that's fair. I jumped the gun on that assumption.

Rivens though, are bandaids. If they're made to address what a player feels they lack in order to restore a sense of control and build customization to make up the difference, I absolutely disagree with the current Riven system implementation. They've been successful.. because we So Very thorsty for weapons that we like best, to work better.

Having to pay 400p to mitigate the pain, making up the difference on a bad weapon.. that sticks in my craw. "We arbitrarily made it's stats bad, so you must go through both hell and high water to receive fair to middlin' damage stats." ...Of course, that only speaks to the poor/middlin' dmg weapons. I deal mostly in these weapons, because the feel of them is often dramatically better/ Others are balanced to feel awkward in performance, in order to deal appropriate damage. Sluggish reloads, knockback, accuracy, all turn me off of a weapon Way faster than poor DPS.

When trying to obtain the kind of DPS expected of us into late content, only some combinations do it, while swathes of guns are non-options. ..except, maybe there's a chance to make that weapon work! But you can't do it without a spicy crazy super rare Riven! 😉 Yep, to make this dogsh*t weapon do a fraction of the damage you need with no scaling potential, you're going to throw hundreds of thousands of Kuva into the void. They'll eat your catalysts and forma just the same, and your exilus adapter just the same.. those surely make money, too.

I can't justify being so in approval of leaving things like it is, and creating more marketing/infrastructure around it, because it still feels wrong. So if you'll understand in that respect, I'm not eager to agree with anything that helps keep rivens as what they are. ...Not without increases of low damage weapons to an Obtainable range of acceptable parity.

Let's put it this way, I'm ok with a player having boundless lust for overkill damage numbers, and hitting them up for expensive rivens is kinda fine. They want to pay to break the game, so be it..  though in doing so, content should not be taken away from those who don't have that lust, because it outscales things that cost the same.

Edited April 16, 2020 by kapn655321

[_Connor]

2 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

You make a fair point about your suggestion being more of the acceptable, 'pay to shirk the grind,' so that's fair. I jumped the gun on that assumption.

Rivens though, are bandaids. If they're made to address what a player feels they lack in order to restore a sense of control and build customization to make up the difference, I absolutely disagree with the current Riven system implementation. They've been successful.. because we So Very thorsty for weapons that we like best, to work better.

Having to pay 400 damage to mitigate the pain, making up the difference on a bad weapon.. that sticks in my craw. "We arbitrarily made it's stats bad, so you must go through both hell and high water to receive fair to middlin' damage stats." ...Of course, that only speaks to the poor/middlin' dmg weapons. I deal mostly in these weapons, because the feel of them is often dramatically better/ Others are balanced to feel awkward in performance, in order to deal appropriate damage. Sluggish reloads, knockback, accuracy, all turn me off of a weapon Way faster than poor DPS.

When trying to obtain the kind of DPS expected of us into late content, only some combinations do it, while swathes of guns are non-options. ..except, maybe there's a chance to make that weapon work! But you can't do it without a spicy crazy super rare Riven! 😉 Yep, to make this dogsh*t weapon do a fraction of the damage you need with no scaling potential, you're going to throw hundreds of thousands of Kuva into the void. They'll eat your catalysts and forma just the same, and your exilus adapter just the same.. those surely make money, too.

I can't justify being so in approval of leaving things like it is, and creating more marketing/infrastructure around it, because it still feels wrong. So if you'll understand in that respect, I'm not eager to agree with anything that helps keep rivens as what they are. ...Not without increases of low damage weapons to an Obtainable range of acceptable parity.

Let's put it this way, I'm ok with a player having boundless lust for overkill damage numbers, and hitting them up for expensive rivens is kinda fine. They want to pay to break the game, so be it..  though as in doing so, content should not be taken away from those who don't have that lust, because it outscales things that cost the same.

I get that rivens are inherently already a band-aid solution to a larger issue, and that they need a total overhaul. They also create new sub-issues, and this idea is intended as a solution to one of those sub-issues, and would act as a band-aid solution to one negative aspect of rivens as a whole by reducing one of the main issues people have with rivens. 
But at the end of the day, a vast majority of game content can already be bought, is already a total rip off that preys on noobs, and it's already up to the player to know what is and isn't worth their money, and not allow themselves to be ripped off by the devs or other players. Having the option available for those who do want to spend what other players see as a 'waste of money' is basically the foundation for WFs monetisation. 

[kapn655321]

2 minutes ago, _Connor said:

I get that rivens are inherently already a band-aid solution to a larger issue, and that they need a total overhaul. They also create new sub-issues, and this idea is intended as a solution to one of those sub-issues, and would act as a band-aid solution to one negative aspect of rivens as a whole by reducing one of the main issues people have with rivens. 
But at the end of the day, a vast majority of game content can already be bought, is already a total rip off that preys on noobs, and it's already up to the player to know what is and isn't worth their money, and not allow themselves to be ripped off by the devs or other players. Having the option available for those who do want to spend what other players see as a 'waste of money' is basically the foundation for WFs monetisation. 

I'm happy when DE makes lots of money. Truly and sincerely. I think they're swell, and deserve good things for all their hard work and patience. I'm not ok with hunkering down on rivens and saying they're good enough to be worth more money, to keep broken things at their most broken.

[_Connor]

5 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

I'm happy when DE makes lots of money. Truly and sincerely. I think they're swell, and deserve good things for all their hard work and patience. I'm not ok with hunkering down on rivens and saying they're good enough to be worth more money, to keep broken things at their most broken.

Sure, but do you prefer cabals of immoral player traders to an actually useful plat sink?  I guess there's no reason you couldn't just spend kuva to lock in stats rather than plat, and let players buy kuva from the market since you can already buy just about everything else from the market. 

Obviously in an ideal world you just remove the plat / 'p2w' aspect from the equation, but my intention is to play devil's advocate from DE's perspective on the assumption that riven trading is profitable for them. So the question is how to reduce the insidious nature of a free-trade, player-managed market without cutting DE out of the picture. 

Edited April 16, 2020 by _Connor

[kapn655321]

3 minutes ago, _Connor said:

but do you prefer

Heavens no. It's a silly side effect of an incomplete system, made on the back of something so imbalanced, it creates these chances to gouge us so deeply.

I'd rather see rivens in more grineer drop tables, and we be able to roll each stat at a time, so that making custom rivens isn't a hard market to enter for more players.. so that we have better bandaids to staunch the bleeding of players with crappy gear, in order to access the game and not be a burden to their peers in mission.

[Genitive]

35 minutes ago, _Connor said:

I'm not disagreeing with you; what you said is just factually wrong.

Ok, fair enough, I can take that.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Wht does everyone think there is something wrong with rivens? Cause there's not. Don't trade crazy amounts of plat for one. You have the power to say no. So say no.

[_Connor]

Just now, (XB1)Shodian said:

Wht does everyone think there is something wrong with rivens? Cause there's not. Don't trade crazy amounts of plat for one. You have the power to say no. So say no.

There is very much something wrong with groups of players getting together in private to buy out, and scam or coerce particular riven mods to manipulate their pricing, and create a false market around meta items. 'just ignore the broken content if you don't like it' is not an argument in a discussion about how to fix said broken content. 

[Genitive]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Wht does everyone think there is something wrong with rivens? Cause there's not. Don't trade crazy amounts of plat for one. You have the power to say no. So say no.

You might be able to say no, but there are people who can't, such as those prone to gambling, and rivens exploit their weaknesses. 

Maybe if they weren't tradeable or their disposition was changed based on their stats rather than popularity, then they would be more acceptable.

2 minutes ago, _Connor said:

There is very much something wrong with groups of players getting together in private to buy out, and scam or coerce particular riven mods to manipulate their pricing, and create a false market around meta items. 'just ignore the broken content if you don't like it' is not an argument in a discussion about how to fix said broken content. 

This is also a good reason.

[Tyreaus]

One thing I'd like to throw out there, take it as one will:

Perhaps the scarcity could move away from the RNG rolls, as many in the thread seem to desire, and into acquisition.

Obviously, Rivens are profitable (to some degree) to DE via scarcity. RNG generates that scarcity. Compromising the RNG, even with a plat sink, makes profits from that venture pretty uncertain. On the other hand, the heavy RNG isn't what players want.

But you can balance out RNG-based scarcity with acquisition scarcity. Basically, the inverse of what they did with Requiem relics, which made Rivens much easier to acquire. (Not saying that should go, but the number of shards per Riven could be tweaked - as an example)

Of course, I don't know other people's opinions on that matter. But I can see reduction in RNG being more palatable on DE's end with that kind of trade-off

On the other hand, considering their disposition changes and the aforementioned boosts to Riven acquisition, maybe DE isn't so reliant on Riven trading as an income and they could nuke it (and fix up the Riven mods into something better) with few repercussions for themselves. Still something to consider, I think.

[kapn655321]

4 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

One thing I'd like to throw out there, take it as one will:

Perhaps the scarcity could move away from the RNG rolls, as many in the thread seem to desire, and into acquisition.

Obviously, Rivens are profitable (to some degree) to DE via scarcity. RNG generates that scarcity. Compromising the RNG, even with a plat sink, makes profits from that venture pretty uncertain. On the other hand, the heavy RNG isn't what players want.

But you can balance out RNG-based scarcity with acquisition scarcity. Basically, the inverse of what they did with Requiem relics, which made Rivens much easier to acquire. (Not saying that should go, but the number of shards per Riven could be tweaked - as an example)

Of course, I don't know other people's opinions on that matter. But I can see reduction in RNG being more palatable on DE's end with that kind of trade-off

On the other hand, considering their disposition changes and the aforementioned boosts to Riven acquisition, maybe DE isn't so reliant on Riven trading as an income and they could nuke it (and fix up the Riven mods into something better) with few repercussions for themselves. Still something to consider, I think.

The scarcity of the stats or the riven are just as much a source of backlash.. especially when it comes time to review the data and do rebalances where necessary. Rivens being more common mitigate that upset, as well as makes the game look better; more stylish options being used confidently and happily by players performing well.

When players have bad loadouts, it hurts the game, and the players.. new, harder events look and feel bad, as players stumble into it with thousands of permutations that just.. don't work right. Rivens are already a cost savings for DE, as they didn't have to rework the fundamental problems of every single weapon all at once.

[Tyreaus]

3 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

The scarcity of the stats or the riven are just as much a source of backlash

In that case, I shall continue to hope they find it in themselves to just nuke Riven trading and fix up Riven mods in a more satisfactory manner.

[kapn655321]

27 minutes ago, (XB1)Shodian said:

Wht does everyone think there is something wrong with rivens? Cause there's not. Don't trade crazy amounts of plat for one. You have the power to say no. So say no.

I agree that paying some crazy price for a riven that works is totally a choice one should decline. The trouble being how Rivens are totally necessary to make some weapons viable in the first place, how scarce that bandaid is, how incentivized DE is to keep it as such due to revenue.. the ballooned prices for rivens are in part artificial, but still vastly more expensive in realistic estimates, than many of their respective weapons deserve.

Edited April 16, 2020 by kapn655321

[DrivaMain]

What we need is a significant RNG reduction on Rivens. I could think of a few things

1. Riven stat locking to prevent a stat we want from getting rerolled. A popular requested feature. 

2. Palladino should sell what type of riven we want, not a random weapon type riven. So she now sells Melee Riven Mod, Shotgun Riven Mod, Kitgun Riven Mod, Zaw Riven Mod. You can only buy 1 of each type per week.

3. If you complete a challenge, you have an increased chance to get a riven of that weapon you put the veiled riven on or even guaranteed. EX : Completing a challenge with Rubico reward you with a higher chance to get or even guaranteed Rubico Riven Mod.

 

 

[Voltage]

Why not just remove Riven Disposition so players can remain confident in their stat roll and always feel like their Riven has a similar value +/- some Platinum? I really don't understand why it's a bad thing that there are Riven Mods worth loads of Platinum. Making changes for the sake of trying to make items cheaper isn't the right way to go about it.

We don't need stat locking either as it really defeats the charm of owning a unique Riven.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Voltage

[kapn655321]

4 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Why not just remove Riven Disposition

To do that, they'd have to totally homogenize the DPS output of every weapon. ...I'm kinda fine with that, honestly..? Otherwise, as you make the strongest weapons stronger, those will require new enemies to challenge them. To make those enemies, you've powercrept the less powerful weapons entirely out of viability. ..As someone who uses these less powerful weapons most, I seriously do not desire that outcome any more than we already have it.

Edited April 16, 2020 by kapn655321