Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[ReshyShira]

9 hours ago, (PS4)evilkittenofdoom said:

If that’s the case, then nerf Frost and Limbo along with it. 

Let's not get into the endless nerf rat race.

[selig_fay]

19 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Let's not get into the endless nerf rat race.

Well, then what's the point of all these nerfs if Limbo and Frost keep making things easier? On the other hand, after the nerf Limbo/Gara/Frost, people will use Loki and then it needs a nerf. After Loki, we have all the aggression generators like Khora or Revenant which also make everything easy even with nullifiers. And so we came to the unfortunate Vauban.

The problem with all these people who come in and talk about "hard content" is that they have double standards and want to nerf everything except their playstyle.

OK, the healing is strong. Let's then make it so that you can't heal an object for 10 seconds after the object has taken damage. And invulnerability won't help with that, because the fact of taking damage stops healing, not the amount of damage. Thus, 60% healing will not help with heavy fire, and invulnerability will give a temporary reprieve, no more. On the other hand, for example with the same Vazarin, you must control mobs for 15 seconds to prevent the object from taking damage and heal it by 60%. OK, Trinity can heal 100%, but Trinity doesn't have any CC/Nucking/Defensive abilities to keep an object intact for 10 seconds and here we see the balance.

Now we add for all factions of heavy mobs that have the ability to instantly destroy any defense after a large caste. You can kill it before the mob finishes caste or you can react quickly after caste or you can CC to interrupt cast. There are also many options.

All the rules affect the game and not on the effectiveness of abilities. If you follow the rules, you get full power and this is why the game is considered a game. But we got just a nerf that just killed the ability and that's it. This will not affect the difficulty because there are frames that really make the game super easy and that have not received any changes. Here again, the question of whether the meaning of nerf healers?

 

[Krenlik]

Not sure why you're singling out Garuda's blood altar as being unthematic, so shouldn't be able to heal the defensive target... draining a foe to heal up yourself/friends IS the point of it just like all of the others.  I could see reducing the AMOUNT of healing per altar like you did for some of the others.

 

 

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

13 hours ago, zhellon said:

I made 97hps for Oberon at maximum energy efficiency. My Wisp in the build for the maximum buff makes 119hps and this is not the limit. I just put the maximum power for interest on Khora and got 174. And I really don't understand what balance we are talking about.

You need to mod heavily for it to break the 100 mark which gives up alot of other stats. The balance we are talking about is the one that is needed to make the game interesting again.

12 hours ago, ReshyShira said:

It's nothing when it takes up all of your time to maintain it, versus it working passively ala Oberon/Khora.  It also isn't enough of an amount to matter at mid to high level due to how HP scaling works.

Healing isnt supposed to be the be-all-end-all approach. It is supposed to support whatever else is brought to the mission instead of being either completely bonkers or completely useless.

[selig_fay]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

You need to mod heavily for it to break the 100 mark which gives up alot of other stats. The balance we are talking about is the one that is needed to make the game interesting again.

Khora does this at the strength 200%. 200% is easy. At the same time, Khora has a powerful CC.

But the problem of weak healing is the problem of weak healing. Personally, I don't understand why it was necessary to drive everything else into the ground just because Nidus can't reach 100hps (although, let's calculate how much Khora will do under the nidus buff)

[SneakyErvin]

20 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Khora does this at the strength 200%. 200% is easy. At the same time, Khora has a powerful CC.

But the problem of weak healing is the problem of weak healing. Personally, I don't understand why it was necessary to drive everything else into the ground just because Nidus can't reach 100hps (although, let's calculate how much Khora will do under the nidus buff)

It is still strength wasted on a very specific thing. And that is at the current value of 100/sec.

Now imagine the idea that was provided that Vaz (and Trinity likely) were going to heal for 25% over 5 seconds. That is 5% per second. Now you suddenly look at 2250/sec in already trivial content like Hydron. Even at 5% over 5 second it would be silly since it would be 450/sec compared to other frames having to break 100 through wasting mod slots.

100/sec is more than enough since it was balanced in comparison to normal heals. There was never a plan to buff anything beyond what it normaly is capable of, so there was never an intent to buff healing from venari, obe or others, the intent was to just make them usable like venari was previously. Venari was already strong enough on her own below 100/sec to keep targets health up as a back up support, this includes longer arbitration runs. They shouldnt balance the game around being able to outheal absurdly long endless, they should focus on balancing things around what most people do, while leaving endless as a "challenge". Aim the healing towards very long endless and you trivialize everything else even more.

[Orhott]

11 hours ago, (PS4)DidelphisV said:

Everyone’s saying that this healing isn’t enough for things like Arbitrations but like.....isn’t that the point? It’s supposed to be hard endgame content, the whole community complained about everything being too easy but y’all still wanna trivialise the actual hard content 

I have a couple problems with this. Arbi defense operatives cannot be defended well. They run around and have really bad AI it seems. This means that limbo/frost/whatever meta defense frame you wanna use for these cannot mitigate incoming damage anymore and that you'll fail the mission sooner rather than later. Healing is required to keep that operative alive and I've never seen it regenerate any health on its own, unlike stationary defense targets (anyone else or is that just me?). Defense arbis were still extremely difficult with Vazarin Protective Dash, it wasn't exactly trivialized by it unless players themselves decided to take it upon themselves and dash through the operative every five seconds for the invulnerability. The invulnerability is exploitable, by all means remove it to keep it from being trivialized, but come on, I wanted hard content, not impossible content.

 

Before you all go off about how I should get better at the game because of my last statement, I'm a veteran of the game, and I got good enough to play 95% of the content on my own, which is usually what I do. I know I could get a squad together to make the arbis much less difficult, but I like playing solo or with one other person. It's still challenging for me. It feels like the players putting together a four person meta team is more of an issue for game modes being trivialized than the game mode being too easy to begin with.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is still strength wasted on a very specific thing. And that is at the current value of 100/sec.

Yes, we don't get the damage from the whip and damage from cats. And Oberon doesn't get more powerful armor buffs and damage from 1 and 4.

5 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Now imagine the idea that was provided that Vaz (and Trinity likely) were going to heal for 25% over 5 seconds. That is 5% per second. Now you suddenly look at 2250/sec in already trivial content like Hydron. Even at 5% over 5 second it would be silly since it would be 450/sec compared to other frames having to break 100 through wasting mod slots.

100/sec is more than enough since it was balanced in comparison to normal heals. There was never a plan to buff anything beyond what it normaly is capable of, so there was never an intent to buff healing from venari, obe or others, the intent was to just make them usable like venari was previously. Venari was already strong enough on her own below 100/sec to keep targets health up as a back up support, this includes longer arbitration runs. They should balance the game around being able to outheal absurdly long endless, they should focus on balancing things around what most people do, while leaving endless as a "challenge". Aim the healing towards very long endless and you trivialize everything else even more.

We only have three frames that are burst healers. This is Trinity, who can do nothing but energy and healing/DR. This is a Harrow that only heals when it deals damage. This is a Garuda that was just a nerf. And all frames have to do things to support the now useless 100hps.

On the other hand, we have "pinched" frames with weak healing, which can do many other things, and in order to heal, they just need to press 1 time on one button and not turn off the ability until the end of the mission.

I can achieve 100 hps with Wisp and Khora very easily. And these two frames have a lot of other things to do without paying attention to this useless healing for objects. Another point, Trinity is now only able to generate energy and nothing else. Yes, this is still a DR for the allies, but no one is worried about it now.

 

[Orhott]

This is aimed at all the people saying that the healing is fine where it is or that we shouldn't be able to heal the defense objectives at all: It was the devs' decision to add it because they were sick of the frost/limbo/gara/etc. meta for defense. This was stated by Rebecca and Megan. They specifically said they added this change to provide an alternate playstyle for defense missions. If you try playing a high level defense mission solo with a healer, you'll see that the heal is not enough to keep up with a high level defense mission soloing with Frost. 

 

The majority of the people on this thread are trying to say this. The few people arguing against us have good points. Yes, you can have a Frost/Gara/Limbo/Trinity team and completely trivialize defense, if you so wish, but we are not talking about that specific instance. We are talking about as a whole, a healer cannot keep up with defensive frames as a strategy for defense. This thread is a feedback thread asking for feedback on healing as an alt strategy for defense. If you have no constructive feedback other than you can make meta teams even more meta now by adding a healer, then please allow us support frames a second to let us make our case, and go create a feedback thread about how you can make defense a little less trivialized.

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Yes, we don't get the damage from the whip and damage from cats. And Oberon doesn't get more powerful armor buffs and damage from 1 and 4.

We only have three frames that are burst healers. This is Trinity, who can do nothing but energy and healing/DR. This is a Harrow that only heals when it deals damage. This is a Garuda that was just a nerf. And all frames have to do things to support the now useless 100hps.

On the other hand, we have "pinched" frames with weak healing, which can do many other things, and in order to heal, they just need to press 1 time on one button and not turn off the ability until the end of the mission.

I can achieve 100 hps with Wisp and Khora very easily. And these two frames have a lot of other things to do without paying attention to this useless healing for objects. Another point, Trinity is now only able to generate energy and nothing else. Yes, this is still a DR for the allies, but no one is worried about it now.

 

That still means you are building specifically for that where the others have to do nothing to achieve the same thing for this exact thing.

What do you mean by "the now useless 100hps"? Prior to the patch vaz and khora were the only two to ever be able to interact with the objective more or less. So it is a buff across the board and a nerf to Vaz OPness only. As I said, Khora was fine alone as a healer for objectives even without hitting the 100/s cap that vaz and trin now have. Garuda was also not nerfed, she was simply not effected by the new objective healing, so she was just unchanged. I dont know why though.

And a Khora dedicating herself to objective healing gimps her own personal healing in the process since a damaging Venari will heal her for much more without needing to hit any pre-req parameters for the heal to kick in. Wisp and Obe sure have the benefits of fire and forget, but it isnt exactly hard to keep blessing active 24/7 anyways on trin, it isnt like she needs to be close to the objective. Blessing is also far stronger when it comes to player interaction than the other two frame's healing abilities.

And lol no, Trinity can do more than generate energy, she can for instance heal her freakin group of players. Her healing objectives is a bonus now, a side dish to her main purpose. You talk as if her job has only ever been about objective protection, which she has never been able to do to begin with. Now she can both heal them and buff their DR, which essentially makes her heal twice as effective since the target only takes half the damage.

[ReshyShira]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Healing isnt supposed to be the be-all-end-all approach. It is supposed to support whatever else is brought to the mission instead of being either completely bonkers or completely useless.

Um,  it isn't the end-all-be-all.  The end-all-be-all would be the meta defense/CC frames.  If the objective is never damage, it never needs to be healed.  This is only a nerf to a player's Plan B, which is to heal the objective.

[SneakyErvin]

18 minutes ago, Orhott said:

This is aimed at all the people saying that the healing is fine where it is or that we shouldn't be able to heal the defense objectives at all: It was the devs' decision to add it because they were sick of the frost/limbo/gara/etc. meta for defense. This was stated by Rebecca and Megan. They specifically said they added this change to provide an alternate playstyle for defense missions. If you try playing a high level defense mission solo with a healer, you'll see that the heal is not enough to keep up with a high level defense mission soloing with Frost. 

 

The majority of the people on this thread are trying to say this. The few people arguing against us have good points. Yes, you can have a Frost/Gara/Limbo/Trinity team and completely trivialize defense, if you so wish, but we are not talking about that specific instance. We are talking about as a whole, a healer cannot keep up with defensive frames as a strategy for defense. This thread is a feedback thread asking for feedback on healing as an alt strategy for defense. If you have no constructive feedback other than you can make meta teams even more meta now by adding a healer, then please allow us support frames a second to let us make our case, and go create a feedback thread about how you can make defense a little less trivialized.

You should probably read this parts.

Quote

Our Healing AoE / Damage Reduction changes posted back on April 3rd have arrived! If you’re unfamiliar, ultimately what we want is more ‘Healing’ Abilities to work to allow for more strategies to emerge in various mission types. Healing these objectives can serve well as an alternative or a complement to the commonly used defensive Abilities, such as Frost's Snow Globe, Gara's Mass Vitrify, Limbo's Cataclysm. 100% heals is not what we want to do, so we are instead allowing the effects with some objective-specific adjustments as to not trivialize the game modes.

They wanted it to be an alternative or a complement, that doesnt mean they want it to perform at a 1:1 ratio, but rather that it is an option that may work well in certain cases and not others. They also specifically state they dont want to trivialize the game modes. It was never the intent to make healing the new objective protection meta, the intent was for it as a new strategy. 

Defense frames also have no side option for other things really, while healers can still heal in all missions now. Should Frost all of a sudden be given a targetable option for his globe that he can apply to himself and others? Should Gara get a wall that moves around her? Should Limbo's rift follow him so he is better at mobile missions?

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

What do you mean by "the now useless 100hps"? Prior to the patch vaz and khora were the only two to ever be able to interact with the objective more or less. So it is a buff across the board and a nerf to Vaz OPness only. As I said, Khora was fine alone as a healer for objectives even without hitting the 100/s cap that vaz and trin now have. Garuda was also not nerfed, she was simply not effected by the new objective healing, so she was just unchanged. I dont know why though.

And a Khora dedicating herself to objective healing gimps her own personal healing in the process since a damaging Venari will heal her for much more without needing to hit any pre-req parameters for the heal to kick in. Wisp and Obe sure have the benefits of fire and forget, but it isnt exactly hard to keep blessing active 24/7 anyways on trin, it isnt like she needs to be close to the objective. Blessing is also far stronger when it comes to player interaction than the other two frame's healing abilities.

And lol no, Trinity can do more than generate energy, she can for instance heal her freakin group of players. Her healing objectives is a bonus now, a side dish to her main purpose. You talk as if her job has only ever been about objective protection, which she has never been able to do to begin with. Now she can both heal them and buff their DR, which essentially makes her heal twice as effective since the target only takes half the damage.

You either never played as Trinity, or you are a new player who doesn't know that Trinity could influence objects. At the same time, we have a Garuda that could do this before the update, but lost it.

 

[SneakyErvin]

3 minutes ago, ReshyShira said:

Um,  it isn't the end-all-be-all.  The end-all-be-all would be the meta defense/CC frames.  If the objective is never damage, it never needs to be healed.  This is only a nerf to a player's Plan B, which is to heal the objective.

It isnt a nerf when it wasnt a thing to begin with, except for the very specific Vaz ability. Everything else is a buff.

[(PSN)evilkittenofdoom]

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

...

The problem with all these people who come in and talk about "hard content" is that they have double standards and want to nerf everything except their playstyle.

...

 

Yeah, that. 

 

1 hour ago, zhellon said:

OK, the healing is strong. Let's then make it so that you can't heal an object for 10 seconds after the object has taken damage. And invulnerability won't help with that, because the fact of taking damage stops healing, not the amount of damage. Thus, 60% healing will not help with heavy fire, and invulnerability will give a temporary reprieve, no more. On the other hand, for example with the same Vazarin, you must control mobs for 15 seconds to prevent the object from taking damage and heal it by 60%. OK, Trinity can heal 100%, but Trinity doesn't have any CC/Nucking/Defensive abilities to keep an object intact for 10 seconds and here we see the balance.

Now we add for all factions of heavy mobs that have the ability to instantly destroy any defense after a large caste. You can kill it before the mob finishes caste or you can react quickly after caste or you can CC to interrupt cast. There are also many options.

All the rules affect the game and not on the effectiveness of abilities. If you follow the rules, you get full power and this is why the game is considered a game. But we got just a nerf that just killed the ability and that's it. This will not affect the difficulty because there are frames that really make the game super easy and that have not received any changes. Here again, the question of whether the meaning of nerf healers?

 

Keeping an objective undamaged for 10 seconds returns to the same problem of practically needing Frost, Limbo etc. If you can do that already, the overwhelming odds are that it’s not going to be touched at all. 
 

That said, the core of your suggestion is spot on : rather than altering each individual ability across the board, a change would likely be better if it was something that created a balancer that all of these things had to abide by in some manner. Finding something that can do that fairly, on the other hand, is another matter entirely. Obviously there are always a select few abilities that need to be addressed even with overall rules, since nothing can catch everything cleanly, but a large rule and small adjustments is almost always more balanced than just smacking everything down.
 

Some of the direction here actually might work well.... how about we go something like this. 
 

• Regeneration effects (Wisp’s Reservoir, Venari’s Heal Mark, Oberon’s Renewal, etc) function at full strength at all times. 
[ Reasoning : Regeneration effects even stacked will amount to fractions of a target’s total health at higher levels. Just as much as out weapon and ability levels vastly outdo enemies at low levels, healing is no different. ] 

• Damage Reduction effects cap at 90%, as with Warframes. 
[ Reasoning : There are means to completely protect objectives with barriers, Limbo and Frost being our continual culprits. We don’t have consistent, constant 100% Damage Reduction on Warframes any more for good reason, original Trinity was absolutely busted. 90% is a very functional number and has proven to be for a long time. The Defense Objectives have large health pools to compensate for the fact that they are not Space Ninjas with godlike powers, agility and weapons to defend themselves. Damage Reduction, however, applies equivalently to both parties. ]
 

• Percentage based healing effects (Trinity’s Blessing, Vazarin’s Protective Dash, etc) are reduced by 80% if the target has taken damage within the last 10 seconds. 
[Reasoning : a 75 reduction means that the Defense Target needs several doses of healing while under fire. This heavily encourages controlling the battlefield, as Tenno should be, without completely preventing them from trying to patch something up when things go wrong.

• Effects that grant invulnerability then prevent the Defense Target from being rendered invulnerable again for the same amount of time it was invulnerable for. 
[ Reasoning : Invulnerability effects are very powerful. This allows them to be used in an emergency but not relied upon as a sole line of defense. ] 

 

• Specific issues
••••  Trinity’s Blessing : An instant even 18% health restore from Trinity’s Blessing is extremely spammable to bring a Defense Objective to full in mere seconds. 
•••• Specific Adjustment - While reduced in effectiveness due to the above, Blessing only restores 50% Shields and 5% Health to the Defense Objective. 

[ Reasoning : Defense Objectives usually have a relatively small Shield Capacity, but it does scale. This provides her with an effective immediate heal of some sort, but nothing that can completely reverse the tide of battle on a whim. The Damage Reduction she applies with it will make these reduced healing potencies still meaningful, as they are effectively 10x stronger than they numerically represent (at the 90% Damage Reduction by increased Power Strength that people almost always run because you should). 
 

**** Equinox’s Mend and Maim

**** The healing burst is affected by the Percentage-Based Healing reduction, to a maximum restoration of 20% Health and Shields to the Defense Target. 

Shields on kill are unaffected and operate at full strength. 

[ Reasoning : Equinox’s Mend and Main burst is a bizarre case where it applies extremely high fixed amounts of healing. On Tenno this isn’t an issue because our health totals are low. The ability to instantly heal the defense target to full is not appropriate when others cannot do the same. Limiting it to the same maximum that Trinity can, who has an innate full heal, I believe to be the appropriate response. Unlike Trinity, it must be charged, however, meaning that it cannot be spammed to full heal something in moments, thus the slightly more forgiving reduction. ]
 

Notice that I only gave two exceptions. “Oh, but what about Protective Dash?” Covered by the invulnerability lockout and Percentage-Based healing reduction. 

There might be one or two more exceptions that might need to be made, but I think that a high (but not 100%) penalty to Percentage-Based healing while the Defense Target is under fire, as well as a lockout on Invulnerability effects, would do immensely more than what we have now and would clean up all of these issues rather handily. 
 

Similar treatment worked on Tenno, so the same types of treatment should be able to be applied to the Defense Targets to good effect. 

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

You either never played as Trinity, or you are a new player who doesn't know that Trinity could influence objects. At the same time, we have a Garuda that could do this before the update, but lost it.

 

No really she couldnt, unless you start talking about living objectives. This is about static objectives.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

No really she couldnt, unless you start talking about living objectives. This is about static objectives.

I mean, she could have done it before one of the blessing nerfs.

[selig_fay]

@(PS4)evilkittenofdoom I don't mind if Trinity and vazarin will get a small nerf, but weak healers will get a buff. I am only in favor of encouraging the game of healers, even if it would be difficult and have many conditions. There is no point in healing now.

[SneakyErvin]

23 minutes ago, zhellon said:

I mean, she could have done it before one of the blessing nerfs.

But that was a loooong time ago.

[selig_fay]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that was a loooong time ago.

Well, I think vazarin got the buff around the same time.

[(PSN)evilkittenofdoom]

@zhellon Exactly the point. The issue is that it isn’t worth your time to try and heal it. Sure, now we can, but really, why bother? 
 

I, however, am of the belief that one should not complain about something without having some sort of suggested alternative. That is why I go into detail about what else might be viable.
 

Complaining without offering an alternative is not helpful, it’s just complaining. 

[(XBOX)HollowCube987]

On 2020-05-08 at 2:26 AM, Magus_Tahir said:

Just wanted to clarify that you were aware that it is only on defendable targets. It will still work as currently listed for Warframes

That makes this just a little better. Thanks for the clarification.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I'm not sure I get the reasoning to leave Garuda's heal out of the update. 

The way the heal works doesn't prevent it from being usable inherently, because many other abilities that were included have altered effects on defendable objects. That could be done for her as well if the percentage based heal is the deal breaker. 

If anything, it should be included in some capacity because of the added complexity of the heal compared to most. It requires a target enemy, and that enemy would need to be within range of the object to heal. I don't even play her often, but to deny that to her players doesn't make much sense. 

[(PSN)evilkittenofdoom]

They said it was thematic, not mechanical. 

[ReshyShira]

On 2020-05-09 at 6:52 AM, SneakyErvin said:

It isnt a nerf when it wasnt a thing to begin with, except for the very specific Vaz ability. Everything else is a buff.

Why nerf Vaz at all?