Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[SilverBones]

Greetings Tenno!

We have made a lot of changes to the way Healing Abilities affect objects, and we are looking to get your collected feedback.

You can find a list of Powers and how they affect Objects (such as the Defense Target), over on the Warframe Revised: Railjack Revisited (Part 1) Update thread.

If you have feedback to leave on the subject of Healing Abilities affecting Objects, then please do so in this thread. Please remember that you should keep your feedback constructive and civil. If you like an aspect of the Railjack changes, tell us what you like. If you do not like an aspect, then tell us why, and what you would change to make it better!

Please bear in mind this is not a place to leave bugs you discover while playing. If you do need to report a bug, please use the Railjack Revisited: Bug Report Megathread.

Thank you!

[1st-1]

"Heal for 500 over 5 seconds" Seriously.. when will you understand that we need a PERCENTAGE.. not a fixed number..(or increase that number or stackable..) because 500 over 5 secs is nothing... specially when you intend to stay in a long run, and i truely hope that the NPC is not counted as an object, otherwise, RIP arbitration defense, because we can't ask them to stand still except when they've a pool of poison under them...

Well played.. again..

[BreakfastBaron]

I've gotta be real with you, these changes gutted Vazarin's dash. Removing the invulnerability? That's fine by me. It was too much. However. 

500 flat health. 

Over 5 seconds. 

With no stacking. 

 

The average non-excavator defense target has tens of thousands of health. You're limiting the dash to basically 2% (being generous) health restoration per five seconds for everything but an Earth defense or Excavation. 

 

I want there to be more interesting schools then the energizing dash machine, please don't do this to me. Can we make it 5% guaranteed at least? Warframes wack health / damage scaling makes flat numbers equivalent in value to the post-WWI German Mark. 

Alternatives:
Increase the flat HP gain and let me stack it. I'd be fine using all my dashes to recover a few thousand HP between waves. Gives me reason to go grab other waybounds too.

Or, give it a passive ability to increase incoming healing. A healing cashback, if you will. While under the effects, any healing gained form either natural regeneration or other team abilities is matched 50-100% by Vazarin Credit Union.

[Leuca]

8 minutes ago, 1st-1 said:

"Heal for 500 over 5 seconds" Seriously.. when will you understand that we need a PERCENTAGE.. not a fixed number..(or increase that number or stackable..) because 500 over 5 secs is nothing... specially when you intend to stay in a long run, and i truely hope that the NPC is not counted as an object, otherwise, RIP arbitration defense, because we can't ask them to stand still except when they've a pool of poison under them...

Well played.. again..

I thought the whole objective of defense was to defend it, not power your heals through damage that your squad is letting through.

Given that, they blatantly increased our ability to reduce damage even more than we were able to beforehand, and once you've scaled high enough for % heals to matter even a small % of health per second is going to be absolutely massive for basically no effort.

Am I the only person who doesn't think this is awful? That maybe we should have to put effort into the game again? I'm genuinely confused by the immediate backlash.

[Aisu9]

500(flat value) over 5 second is NOT the way healing should work on objectives... remember damage scale with level ? because at some point 100hp/s do nothing. you should bump any flat value health over x second to % value health over x second

[Bristoling]

None of them stack. If defense targets in high level missions have 30 thousand hp, what is 500 heal over 5 seconds (100/s) going to do? Nothing. DE, you can do better. I can do better job balancing this, even though I'm a no-name random, not a professional designer. Reach out and I'll balance it for you, free of charge.

Also, you didn't mention anything about Mag's Crush or Polarize abilities and how they got changed.

 

All these issues were raised before, does nobody read the feedback?

[-CLM-Joker]

As said in the dev workshop thread, healing for 500 over 5 seconds will have no effect on high level missions, where the objective can have health values in the orders of tens of thousands.

Please do consider changing it from a flat value to a % value, perhaps decreasing as the level gets higher in order to still ramp up difficulty.

For example, sart from 40-50% heal at level 1 and progressively reduce to 4% at level ~250, so that it can still have an effect but doesn't trivialize the content.

As of now it would only benefit low level mission and short endless missions.

 

The damage reduction additions are very welcome though.

[Hackfield]

Please grant Hildryn the ability to give shieldgate to Pets, Companions and VIPs

[(XBOX)Duke DEFCON]

8 minutes ago, Leuca said:

I thought the whole objective of defense was to defend it, not power your heals through damage that your squad is letting through.

Given that, they blatantly increased our ability to reduce damage even more than we were able to beforehand, and once you've scaled high enough for % heals to matter even a small % of health per second is going to be absolutely massive for basically no effort.

Am I the only person who doesn't think this is awful? That maybe we should have to put effort into the game again? I'm genuinely confused by the immediate backlash.

It's not just you. I love that we defense frames REALLY matter now.

On that note, can we PLEASE add Electromagnetic Shielding as one of the ways to reduce damage to defense targets, and alter it to be used on all Sword and Shield weapons?

[(XBOX)Duke DEFCON]

2 minutes ago, Hackfield said:

Please grant Hildryn the ability to give shieldgate to Pets, Companions and VIPs

100% and specters too.

[Scrylite]

PERCENTAGE

C'mon DE. Of all the things that a player can do in warframe, you want to nerf the one thing that allows for players to relax slightly and play non-nuke frames?

For all the time put into gathering focus, this is now rendered a pointless ability. It is no longer effective at even remotely healing the point, and by the time you have access to focus, there a numerous otherways to heal allies, and trying to dash at an ally repeatedly when no one stands still anyway isn't worth the hassle. 

[DrinkingRock]

I foresee this causing a LOT more Limbo use among the masses. Endgame/flexible players will continue to adapt, but many, many more are just going to swap to Limbo. Also Wisp is now yet another tier higher than any non-energizing support. I'll do more testing and give serious feedback in a bit.

[Flying_Scorpion]

All of these changes are great; however I noticed that Harrow only heals for a max of 50hp per second, while most of the others heal for a max of 100hp per second. 

 

I put my feedback into a video here

 

 

[Aisu9]

also thanks you soo much for killing varazin, i'm sure you know healing dash is easy enought to hit with 100% accuracy allies how jump here and there, and you just destroy a focus school, guess we'll all stick to zenurick, I cannot wait to see what you'll do to focus with the 3.0, because only zenurik is usefull now.

[1st-1]

il y a 22 minutes, Leuca a dit :

I thought the whole objective of defense was to defend it, not power your heals through damage that your squad is letting through.

Given that, they blatantly increased our ability to reduce damage even more than we were able to beforehand, and once you've scaled high enough for % heals to matter even a small % of health per second is going to be absolutely massive for basically no effort.

Am I the only person who doesn't think this is awful? That maybe we should have to put effort into the game again? I'm genuinely confused by the immediate backlash.

Don't need someone like you to tell me how missions work, have you ever done a defense above lvl 30 for more than 10minutes ?

DE tells us they want to give players more choice, variety, now they force us to play defensive frames

and we never asked to be able to just dash in objectiv and full heal it, just give us OPTIONS !

but yeah, keep thinking u're an exception.

[Z0mbyachin]

About Vazarin. 500 HP over 5 seconds is nothing in missions where defence objectives can have 10,000+ HP.

The removal of invincibility is fine in my opinion, however, I think instead of a flat heal value, it should still be a %, even if a lesser one.

[Zilotz]

Hello everyone!

What is offered is NOT perfect yet.

There are some problems:

Healing:

Vazarin - Protective Dash: Please keep as it was working before.

• Why? Choosing Vazarin already is a big sacrifice, also keeping object alive requires perfect timing.

Trinity - Blessing - We need % of healing as often defense targets have huge health pools at high levels and despite that can be one-shot in infinite missions.

• Would give 50% of Trinity's blessing heal effect(if for frames it's 120%it would be 60% for defense target).

Equinox - Mend - Would be perfect as it is for frames.

Hydroid - Curative Undertow - would be perfect as it is for frames.

Harrow - Penance  - would be perfect as it is for frames.

Garuda - Blood Siphon - would be perfect at half rate.

 

Protection:

Do the same stats as for frames before - would be perfect this way.

• Why? Because longer we stay in mission more we need those damage reduction skills.

 

[Totterson]

Here's your feedback:

Fix Vazarin's change into something more respectable than the laughingstock that it is right now. That low low amount does not scale and is unsuited for something like a Requiem fissure on Kuva Survival, and doesn't come anywhere close to the amount of goodness that it used to be. Or rework focus as a whole and stop making people jump straight to running Zenurik all of the time. It's predictable, boring, and poor design.

 

Edit: Also thank you so much for listening to the massive amount of negative feedback on this matter back in your workshop thread. It feels good to see how pointless those truly are when nothing we say in them affects the changes before they go live.

[z3us32610]

Leaving out Garuda from being able to heal does not make any sense to me. She does not have any other direct objective defense ability, so allowing her to do the same as most of the others, at the very least, would make sense. I realize her healing ability is strong but what you did with others is give a burst heal over 5 seconds. Please reassess your decision to leave Garuda out of the this.

On top of this, both Wisp and Oberon get their healing abilities to full effect. So Wisp can just set her mote down on top of the objective and know that it will heal indefinitely, with no energy cost after the initial cast cost. Oberon at least has to expend energy to heal.

Garuda is a DPS frame and I get that. I play her almost exclusively, so I definitely understand. I still don't see a problem with her getting SOME kind of objective healing.

Please reassess Garuda and objective healing.

[Jangkrik]

Can we start having percentages instead of flat numbers for stuffs that scale, please?

1. Protective Dash: 500 over 5 seconds is useless when the heal does matters. 500 is only useful at low level defenses, where Protective dash is useless because the enemies instantly die when you touch them.
2. Khora: 50 health per second is as useless.
3. The same can be said for the rest.

It is perfectly reasonable to have the healing not to be too strong. However, please allow us to heal the objective. As it stands, the reworked healing mechanics are only useful at low level contents, where 99% of the time they aren't needed. it won't trivialize the content as long as the % is not set too high.

The change is just repeating the issue with Excavator and MD terminals before their hp were buffed.

Instead of increasing diversity, this change will just remove healing objective as a viable possibility and thus decrease the diversity by alienating heal frames from defending stuffs because their healings are useless.

[(PSN)f0l1v31r4]

22 hours ago, [DE]Bear said:

If you have feedback to leave on the subject of Healing Abilities

That feedback wasn’t posted Here and above 90% of the players agreed in % is better than flat values? Without mention how vazarin will be useless implemented how it is.

seriously I have just one question.... why post a thread like that (in a concept we hear you lol) to not hear the feedback?

tbh the “we hear you” slogan won’t fit anymore.

[Amadurim]

Make the defense target's shield, health, and armor if they even have one, a real-time scaling. Imagine doing defense mission till wave 100 or so and the lvl of the defense objective is just at 30. And make healing abilities affect it at percentage rate. 

It's so laughable DE want us to play frames other than Limbo, Frost, Gara etc  in defense mission but giving a poor 500 hp over 5 second. It can't even be considered an alternative

Oh and Equinox's mend,

 "Notes: Since the heal amount is based on player damage, the numbers are astronomical which will lead to imbalances outside our goal here."

Equinox mend heals is distributed, so in solo play we're talking about 3 things got healed, yourself, your companion and defense target, making you need 3 times more of what you want to heal the defense target with. Let's not talk with 4 man party, that means 9 things including defense target. Not to mention other things like Wukong's twin, Khora's venari, Nekros's shadows, etc.

 

[Brawlatron]

Since the numbers on the Defense Target Healing seem to have seen no changes since initial proposal, my feedback also remains unchanged so I'm reposting it.

While the overall goal of allowing most healing abilities to interact with defense targets is good, there are a few issues I have with the current implementation:

1. Low Heal over Time Values
2. Low Damage Reduction Values
3. Vazarin Nerf

Low Heal over Time Values

A phrase repeated 5 times in this post is "500 Health over 5 Seconds", which translates into 100 Health per Second. This seems to be the currently proposed "cap" to healing objectives and is incredibly low, as I shall demonstrate by comparing this to the health totals of Defense Objectives currently in game.

Loading into the lowest level Defense node on the Star Chart (Lith, Earth) spawned for me a Defense Pod with a total health value of 2750. Healing 100 Health per second on this pod means you would be healing only 3.63% of its health per second... and it looks worse for the top end of Star Chart. Loading into Hydron (which is tied for highest level Defense mission) spawned a pod with its Max HP being 47,630. Applying 100 health per second to this pod would be..... only 0.21% of its max HP per second.... rounded up. And this is only for basic Star Chart missions, this percentage will get even worse when level modifiers such as Fissures are taken into account.

This value is in dire need of an increase. My suggestion would be to apply a healing cap of 5% of Max HP per second to all static defense targets. This would mean that, assuming 0 incoming damage is taken by the objective, it would take up to 20 seconds to fully heal the target. (I would also like to propose 1 exception to this rule, which I will explain later)

Low Damage Reduction Values

While I am in favor of a slight reduction of Max Damage Reduction applying to objectives in exchange for having a variety of sources being able to apply it, I fear that the current values are a bit too harsh. Using Gara's live damage reduction on Splinter Storm as an example, any Gara build worth using will have this set to the cap of 90%, a value certainly in need of reducing. Reducing this to a cap of 50% will translate to a Splinter Storm protected target will go from taking 1/10 of incoming damage to half, 5 times more than what is currently live. I would suggest raising this cap to somewhere in the ballpark of 66%-75%, and if this is too much combined with the new ease of access to healing, we can talk about scaling back from there.

Quick side note; Seeing Ember's Immolated Radiance augment listed with this cap of 50% DR on targets is hilarious, as it cannot even reach this value. The augment does not scale with Ability Strength, meaning the maximum reduction it can provide to allies is 45% and that's assuming you're sitting in max overheat, which you should never do. I'd take this as a sign that the augment needs to be buffed, but that may be a discussion for another day.

Vazarin Nerf

Oh dear, this is the big one... When it was first revealed a review was being done on Defense healing, my thoughts immediately turned to a review and subsequent nerf to Protective Dash, though I'd by lying if I said there wasn't good reason for it. I'll start by saying I am in favor of removing its ability to make targets invincible; having merely to Void Dash into the target every 5 seconds to make it completely immune is absolutely overpowered. That said... The healing effect change is a colossal nerf; using the Hydron pod with 47,630 Health as an example again, and using the 500 health over 5 seconds cap (aka 100 HP/s), it would go from healing this objective for 5,715 health per second to 100... 57 times less. And worse yet, this would remove what I would argue is the only use case of running any Focus School other than Zenurik in general play. I would propose instead allowing Protective Dash to heal objectives for 15% of their max HP per second (this is the exception to the 5% cap on abilities I mentioned earlier), and more importantly, launching a review of all Focus Schools for balancing.

Let me be absolutely clear with that last point: I am not just calling for a massive nerf to Zenurik. While it is highly likely Zenurik needs to be toned down and perhaps some of its abilities given to other schools (giving Inner Might to Naramon comes to mind), I would argue that by doing only that, using Focus at all outside of hyper-specific examples such as Eidolons would be next to irrelevant, especially with the massive grind that comes with accessing the Focus abilities in the first place. I believe ALL Focus Schools outside of Zenurik are in dire need of buffs, and given the Revised Update chain already going, now would be a perfect time to do it.

[PsiWarp]

Some of these aren't working at the moment. Wisp's Vitality Mote applies to Defense cryopods but not Excavators. Baruuk's Desolate Hands doesn't jump to the object at all.

Please make sure host and client-side work the same. Go through the list and apply it to all static objectives (and sometimes movable AI, like Rescue Hostages, etc).

[Aezy]

I'm not sure if you guys realize that with such a big nerf to vazarin's protective dash, you just made frost or limbo mandatory for anything above level 30 and did not AT ALL expend the number of frames being played in defense missions.

Before, any frame with some type of crowd control was fine. Not to mention the twenty other ways that nerf reduced the pool of viable frame, like now having to waste 80% of a build on squishy frames with no DR just to stay alive.

I can't wait for you to read this and conclude that the proper way forward is to nerf frost and limbo.