Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[Slayer-.]

Makes it hard as a solo Frost doing the corrupted defence tileset in high end missions, Frost shield doesn't bounce back those pesky corrupted NUKE grenades that come through the shield and nearly wipe out the defence object, in the past as a solo player I could use Frost snow globe and run Varzarin school to heal the objective and keep on fighting when that happens, maybe make frost shield block all projectiles.

Or stop trying to stop solo players, not all of us want to try and find a squad to actually work together as a functioning squad which I find just doesn't work most times, my clan mates are not much better when there on.

^{Might not really be feedback that you need but I feel better having a little rant. 🙂}

[ReshyShira]

2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

Makes it hard as a solo Frost doing the corrupted defence tileset in high end missions, Frost shield doesn't bounce back those pesky corrupted NUKE grenades that come through the shield and nearly wipe out the defence object, in the past as a solo player I could use Frost snow globe and run Varzarin school to heal the objective and keep on fighting when that happens, maybe make frost shield block all projectiles.

Or stop trying to stop solo players, not all of us want to try and find a squad to actually work together as a functioning squad which I find just doesn't work most times, my clan mates are not much better when there on.

^{Might not really be feedback that you need but I feel better having a little rant. 🙂}

You're asking DE to fix their game, that's not allowed.

[SneakyErvin]

10 hours ago, ReshyShira said:

Why nerf Vaz at all?

To get it more balanced.

When Khora could already keep targets up with Venari's heal in high content it would be absurd to keep Vaz as it was. Now several frames and abilties can do what Khora did aswell.

4 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

Makes it hard as a solo Frost doing the corrupted defence tileset in high end missions, Frost shield doesn't bounce back those pesky corrupted NUKE grenades that come through the shield and nearly wipe out the defence object, in the past as a solo player I could use Frost snow globe and run Varzarin school to heal the objective and keep on fighting when that happens, maybe make frost shield block all projectiles.

Or stop trying to stop solo players, not all of us want to try and find a squad to actually work together as a functioning squad which I find just doesn't work most times, my clan mates are not much better when there on.

^{Might not really be feedback that you need but I feel better having a little rant. 🙂}

Since you play solo use 3 globes to prepare for those waves. It was the exact same when soloing condrix as Frost, in higher waves you'd place 3 globes to cover the most vulnerable directions from the tonkor using shield units, just so the splash damage wouldnt reach the oplink. The same works versus bombards and grenades.

[selig_fay]

@slotschii You forgot Titania Thorns, which continue to work, although the developers mentioned that this buff does not work. This is easy to check due to reflect damage.

[Veterus]

I agree with alot of these people saying it needs to be a % but im here to ask for another change to be made

Since being able to reduce damage taken has been added could you make https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Electromagnetic_Shielding Work on them as well.

[lowgrav]

just did a orb valis mission with it well the healing affect dont seem to do any thing to coildrives now so they get shot up and apparently DE made it so the 5 seconds of invuriblity dont work on other players that are using K drives so..... other warframes / players are now defence targets? and dont get the 5 seconds

[Priwe]

I'm a long-time Vazarin player (and will continue to be) and the nerfs to Vazarin are really bad, and the healing increases to the other warframes are not good enough to compensate this big nerf, in my opinion. As many of people have stated, even back in the Dev Workshop, the numbers are too low for anything that is above level 30 missions. I mostly play solo and have ran Vazarin as a way to keep myself, and, when I found it out years ago, objectives alive while playing warframes that were a bit more bursty, because I did not have to worry about the objective nearly as much (because I could keep it alive with my Operator). Now, healing objectives is not an option because just about any objective above level 20 missions can take far more than 500 damage in 5 seconds to heal back up with just "500 health over 5 seconds" heals (which, simple math here, is 100 health per second), when Vazarin originally healed for significantly more than that especially at level 40+ when defense nodes have ~45k health (which was ~27k health over 5 seconds, plus an invulnerability buff for those 5 seconds).

Many people have agreed that Vazarin's invulnerability buff on defensive notes was too much (I will tend to disagree slightly more than I agree due to my playstyle, but that's not important), the buff still existed and now that's gone entirely without any sort of compromise or compensation (and I mean compensation to Vazarin's kit, not to people that sunk focus into Vazarin). Trinity got the ability to heal and give a damage reduction buff to defense nodes, why did Vazarin not also get a damage reduction buff at least? I would have liked to see a little more thought behind the numbers and balance before this was pushed out, and I hope that this gets reverted or significantly buffed to see it as a viable solution again.

[(PSN)DidelphisV]

Noticed that Wisp has an issue healing some objectives (namely ones that float above ground, like the Oplinks) would like to see that fixed 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 2020-05-03 at 2:17 AM, Opyt said:

Meanwhile in what I could only describe as a bold strategy, you also opted to not allow an operator using the Vazarin tree to utilize Guardian Blast to restore shields of stationary objectives.  If anything that could have helped mitigate some (not all mind you, but some) of my issues with it, provided shield gating on stationary objectives was a thing. 

Can no longer restore Shields on Hostage/Operatives.

 

Vazarin Protective Dash being 5,000 health per sec with Shield being restored by Guardian Blast would have been a psuedo replacement for the invincibility and 60% Health restore. 

In Arbitration the Instant revives are made useless and no the no healing means a defensive Objective Arbitration rendered Vazarin from still having some positive use to being near useless and minimizing Frame versatility. Operator Focus tree could supplment Frame choice.

(Nekros Soul Survivor* Augment should at least heal an objective for % an ally would be revives at, since it cost an entire energy pool and cannot revives Companions/allies in Arbitration.)*

 

Hopefully Focus may get rebalanced : where all trees are suitable for all content.

Focus trees were already pretty bias when comparing how much Focus was needed to max tree:

Vazarin: 6,929,367

Naramon: 7,450,907

Uniaru: 8,107,516

Madurai: 8,479,097

Zenurik: 9,595,583

 

(In-addtion to some crazy Focus nodes getting less efficient on energy drain as you rank them-up...why?!?)

 

[(PSN)TonberryFeye]

I am so disappointed with this change. I hated objective missions because I don't enjoy playing Frost or Limbo. I don't want to have to sit in the middle of a bubble doing nothing all match.

Vazarin let me have fun with defense missions. I could play with the Warframe I enjoy, and I had to actively shield and heal the target. I started enjoying Defense, Mobile Defense and Excavation again. 

Now... I am done with those modes. You've told me that I can't play a third of the game now because I have to choose between having fun and bringing Limbo.

Give Vazarin back as it was. Let us enjoy the game. At the very least put the invincibility back, as that required us to choose between fighting and shielding the objective. 

[Opyt]

On 2020-05-15 at 5:13 PM, (PS4)MrNishi said:

(stuff & things)

 

I don't know that Guardian Blast ever worked on hostages/operatives, as I can't remember ever trying it on them.

I think you may have misread the changes: it's 500 (five hundred) not 5000 (five thousand) over 5 seconds (not 500hp/s, but rather 100hp/s for 5s) which doesn't stack with itself.

While I doubt we'll get any changes to Soul Survivor augment and Focus Trees, there's no harm in hoping I guess.

 

The Vazarin tree has been on the ropes since operators got Magus Elevate with Plains of Eidolon, and I'm surprised it wasn't completely KO'd by Magus Repair, as it's a significantly superior version of Void Regen.

For those keeping score at home:

We have Fosfor Flares (Rahd/Blau) from Plague Star which increases Affinity Share Range to 200m, a significant upgrade when compared to Mending Unity's 25m.

We have Arbitrations where you can't revive people, as well as an overabundance of +1 revive arcanes available thanks to Scarlet Spear (not that I don't enjoy my maxed arcanes), so no one really cares about being instantly revived up to 8 times (4 operator/4 warframe which is probably a bug)

We have Magus Repair which performs the exact same task as Void Regen only better (percentage-based healing in void mode at no additional energy cost and without locking you into a focus school) [for numbers comparison: Void Regen: https://imgur.com/YyNh0cT  vs. Magus Repair: https://imgur.com/I1o3Ja8 ]

We have Hildryn which easily outpaces Guardian Blast

And don't forget Magus Anomaly to replace Sonic Dash

-

Which leaves us with Protective Dash (which has now been nerfed for stationary objectives), Void Aegis (which grows so big it encompasses enemies similar to Frost's Snow Globe without the benefit of reducing the range or freezing enemies), Guardian Shell (which the operator's hitbox is far too small to effectively use as a defend-others ability, and you already have void mode to personally not take damage lmao) and the Waybound Passives.  Time's ticking on those abilities.  Vazarin school is literally feature creep the focus school.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

Have the defense abilities on objects been implemented on consoles yet or is warding halo not working on targets just me?

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 2020-05-15 at 2:13 PM, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Vazarin Protective Dash being 5,000 health per sec with Shield being restored by Guardian Blast would have been a psuedo replacement for the invincibility and 60% Health restore

 

18 hours ago, Opyt said:

I think you may have misread the changes: it's 500 (five hundred) not 5000 (five thousand) over 5 seconds (not 500hp/s, but rather 100hp/s for 5s) which doesn't stack with itself

I was saying "...would have been" , as-in a suggestive change.

25,000 health over 5 secs or 5,000 health per sec over 5 secs.

I feel that and Vazarin Guardian Blast Restoring Shields would have been closer allowing me the freedom to run continue to run Banshee in Arbitration Excavation/Defense.

 

I don't understand the lowering of Operator viability with recent changes.

Yes Magus Lockdown was a cheese-mode CC and Kill, but Magus Anomaly didn't need a Nerf to pulling enemies when Eidolons.

Warframes get to be Overpowered power fantasy against all the other Enemies. 

Why can't Operators be Overpowered Power Fantasy for Eidolons, Sentients, and defensive objectives/allies.

Are Operators only here to supplement a Warframe by basically replacing Niche mods(Naramon - Combo count) or Gear items(Zenurik Energy, Vazarin Health /Shields)?

Leaving Unairu and Madurai for actual Operator combat vs Eidolon.

 

I still see Rell as what my Operator should be capable of. He was not there to merely augment the Warframe...heck Rell did not need any Warframe.

 

[Opyt]

On 2020-05-17 at 11:01 PM, (PS4)MrNishi said:

 

I was saying "...would have been" , as-in a suggestive change.

25,000 health over 5 secs or 5,000 health per sec over 5 secs.

I feel that and Vazarin Guardian Blast Restoring Shields would have been closer allowing me the freedom to run continue to run Banshee in Arbitration Excavation/Defense.

 

Ah, I see what you're getting at now.  The reason I personally want defensive healing to be percentage based (My thoughts were 10% over 5s being the cap) is because 5000hp/s for 5s is enough to fully heal excavators 5x over in most missions, but movile defense objectives go up to 25k hp mostly, while defense get up around 43k.

Switching to percentage over flat numbers would also have the advantage of being easier to tweak later, and would scale much better with their plans of "hard" and "extra hard" modes around the corner.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

12 hours ago, Opyt said:

Ah, I see what you're getting at now.  The reason I personally want defensive healing to be percentage based (My thoughts were 10% over 5s being the cap) is because 5000hp/s for 5s is enough to fully heal excavators 5x over in most missions, but movile defense objectives go up to 25k hp mostly, while defense get up around 43k.

Switching to percentage over flat numbers would also have the advantage of being easier to tweak later, and would scale much better with their plans of "hard" and "extra hard" modes around the corner.

That makes more sense for balanced healing over a variety of content levels.

 

[vanaukas]

On 2020-05-08 at 4:42 PM, SneakyErvin said:

They cant overbuff one mechanic when it is supposed to be one of many that are balanced in comparison to eachother. 100/sec without any mod investment is one hell of a free heal when you consider that support frames modded for strength barely reaches that point of heal/sec.

But to get 100 hp/s you need to have a maxed Protective Dash. That's a huge investment compared to just putting a mod (or 2-3, wich also you use to improve other abilities) and calling it a day. It's like you are deliberately omitting that point, wich is the most important thing about this nerf, a huge investment that leads to subpar results. Sorry to quote something that old, but I'm surprised by the fact that no one pointed that out.

All of this doesn't mean that the ability didn't need a nerf, because in fact was needed, the thing is you can't just play as operator and healing things like kuva survival pods. I used to play like this (and I invested a LOT of grind on my combat operator to do that, because I like that gameplay) and now I can't. Really, you can't reach 40 mins of kuva survival without losing a pod with just vazarin. What I'm going to do? Bring frost or limbo and then loosing the life support? Being forced to search for a party when I don't want and also risking to losing everything because my unstable rural connection? Even my nerkos is builded around the operator with a literall max range build. Now I'm also forced to comeback to the warframe gameplay that I don't like that much as the operator? Those 100/sec aren't a permanent buff (like wisp), why it would be balanced around that? You have to commit to what are you healing instead of just dropping something and then focusing on killing everything with you giant beam or powerful weapons.

On 2020-05-09 at 9:02 AM, SneakyErvin said:

100/sec is more than enough since it was balanced in comparison to normal heals. There was never a plan to buff anything beyond what it normaly is capable of, so there was never an intent to buff healing from venari, obe or others, the intent was to just make them usable like venari was previously. Venari was already strong enough on her own below 100/sec to keep targets health up as a back up support, this includes longer arbitration runs. 

That just worked against infested because most of them don't reach the excavator because Strangledome. With corpus/grineers, khora has never being a choice to heal the excavators (and I know that because I'm an actual vazarin player and an avid arbi player). Go ahead and try to survive less than 8 excavators without losing 1 with just khora and venari heals and then comeback and post your results, I'm pretty sure you'll be surprised.
_________

I came here expecting to have this cthread closed with a response from the dev team, I still can't understand what's the point to ask for feedback and then neglecting it. Seriously, I know devs can't discuss much things about development itself and balance of the overal game, since this dropped I've been asking myself "what if my pov is narrowing my understanding of this nerf", but everytime I try to heal things and they aren't being affected or being the heal too low to be reliable, I think "It cannot be just my narrow pov, this isn't ok". 

Fun thing is I don't even use Vazarin to defenses now, because it's useless. I opted to go as Frost with Zenurk and then spam his 3 and 4 (I tried with Vazarin but what's the point to bring it if the defense target doesn't recieve enough damage?). But that's balance, isn't it?

At least we can continue to bring support by healing to our teammates and living defense targets with Vazarin, otherwise defense arbitrations would be unplayable or would force you to stay in a corner and shooting things from there to keep the objective alive.

[selig_fay]

9 hours ago, xHeretic said:

That just worked against infested because most of them don't reach the excavator because Strangledome. With corpus/grineers, khora has never being a choice to heal the excavators (and I know that because I'm an actual vazarin player and an avid arbi player). Go ahead and try to survive less than 8 excavators without losing 1 with just khora and venari heals and then comeback and post your results, I'm pretty sure you'll be surprised.

In fact, Khora is effective against everything, because the enemies captured by the dome generate aggression, which means that the object has a very small chance of getting damage. But this fact has nothing to do with healing, even though Khora is now the most powerful object healer.

[selig_fay]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm not sure if I missed it, but is there a reason Titania's thorn buff doesn't affect targets? It's only 50% and there are way more powerful abilities that currently affect targets without any repercussions by just pressing one button..

Because they don't know it works.

 

[selig_fay]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

What? It does? It seemed like siphons took usual damage.. hence my conclusion it doesn't work..

And in the patch notes it said "fine as is, does nothing"

This is a very confusing lobby. I'll continue to cast thorns nontheless..

I don't know how you measured the damage, but I'm judging by the damage reflection component. Mobs reflect damage on themselves when they hit an object. This is 100%.

[selig_fay]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm still confused, and also I think I got her ability wrong. I thought it's 50% DReduction, not Dredirection..

But still, patch notes say on live does nothing, fine as is (no effect)

Whatever is going on, ty for helping me trying to figure it out, I'm new to Titania

Edit: the wiki says it has DR, but the siphon was shred, and I can tell when there's 50% DR.. I main Baruuk..

I'm lost

The Thorns buff aura grants 50% damage reduction and reflects 50% of the damage taken back to the attacker. Any allies within range will also benefit from the damage reduction and reflection.

The visual effects and the fact that the opponents themselves inflict damage suggests that the buff works. At the same time, it feels like objects are getting stronger, so I think they don't understand what works for them and what doesn't. For example, the Nezha augment still does nothing for objects, although it is written that it should give 50% DR.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Oh.. that basically looks like DE has no idea what they just did.. great.. I'll pick health over time stuff for now, since this definitely works..

Well, maybe there's just a person sitting there who doesn't understand the system completely and/or just couldn't account for everything. I'm sure there's something like, stationaryActor which is inherited from actorWithHealh, which is inherited from actorWithCommands or something like that and there's something like DEstandartObject at the end of the inheritance. And maybe they could check everything related to stationaryActor, but didn't consider that Titania could affect all actorWithCommands. Well, purely in theory. 

This can be understood, it is just a mistake of one, maybe two people. I just don't like the fact that they have taken it upon themselves to change it at all without any notification of what should come out of it in the end. I only see that in fact for complex missions there is only limbo/frost/gara and CC, while no one will ever care about healing and DR anymore because they are now under high limits.

[vanaukas]

4 hours ago, zhellon said:

In fact, Khora is effective against everything, because the enemies captured by the dome generate aggression, which means that the object has a very small chance of getting damage. But this fact has nothing to do with healing, even though Khora is now the most powerful object healer.

But he just talked about "how powerfull was khora's healing with venari after this change" and I disagree based on my experience. Khora users always lost excavtors and I, in the past, never lost one, but I had to stay there protecting and killing things with my operator to make it happen. When my operator start to become too weak against enemies, it's impossible to sustain even with the 60% and invulnerability.

[vanaukas]

I had an idea that would work with the current values on Healing Defense Targets and maybe would also help every healing ability in general. Trinity bless is the only ability in game that restores shields and also health, with the introduction of shield gating this is tremendously useful, what if all abilities can restore health and also shields on Defense targets? With the same values we have right now, this would be enough to not being one shoted and be sustainable in time and also with that change we could take off the invulnerability of Vazarin (wich is very broken imho) and replace it with 50% of DR on Static defense targets and 80% on living targets. 

No more "barely useful just when shields are down" and also we could bring healing frames instead just Frost - Limbo - Gara to avoid taking damage and not failing the mission on high levels or endurance runs, so the whole idea of this change (healing defense targets) would make more sense, since aims to diversify our tools to choose, instead of relying on just those 3 examples.

Shield gating would also be more relevant than already is (wich would benefit another forgotten Vazarin ability), since you can rely not just on health but also shields.

Do you think this could work or will be very broken? Because right now Vazarin it's useless for healing statics defense targets and insanely broken with living targets.

[Caliboom]

How about you listen to the community and revert the Vazarin nerf?

[zhunGamer]

I got a -75% coupon today. I used to buy 2100 or 4300 platinum after each -75% coupon I got. I've had over 30k plat.

You broke Vazarin, even though Excavation with Vazarin was one of my favorite game modes.

Considering you remove the stuff I'm paying for (a fun gaming experience, obviously), I'll just not pay this time, at all.

I'd let it slide, but they say, "we value the time investment of our players, and don't want to make players feel like they've invested all that time for nothing".

They say that, and they break Vazarin, which takes WEEKS to unlock because of the focus cap, or a MASSIVE amount of eidolon hunting.

I have maximum focus, I've unlocked every focus school, for this? Unairu Void Shadow doesn't even affect defense targets!

"But even if we break things, players just keep coming back!"

Sure, they come back, for some time, maybe for Nightwave, but I'm not playing nearly as much. I have 2000+ hours on Steam, 1000+ in-game, now I log in to grab some Cetus standing then quit immediately.

"We want to make sure that people can enjoy using multiple frames, instead of just 1-2 dedicated ones!" Then why force me to be Frost or Limbo, by removing the alternative utility workaround that would let me use any frame, assuming I paid attention to the defense objective?

Could have added a cooldown, I'd understand, but flat-out butchering of the ability is just ridiculous, and completely goes against advertisments of the promised "power fantasy".

Anyways. I've had my chit-chat saying "please revise this". My rule is that I pay for a game if I enjoy it. As with this change, I clearly don't enjoy Warframe, I'll just stop paying. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Is this non-constructive? Well neither is breaking a niche game mechanic the few people who know about it enjoy, after 2.5 years out of NOWHERE.

Cheers.

 

EDIT: Actually, never mind on the Nightwave. Uninstalled.