Railjack Revisited (Part 1): Healing Abilities on Objects Feedback Megathread

[selig_fay]

22 hours ago, Zhuinden said:

Imagine that Vazarin is an end-game ability that takes at least 1 month to unlock and max, and then it's only effective against Lv10 enemies, lol

This is actually only part of the truth. It's ineffective in objects def, but invulnerability still makes my life easier.

[zhunGamer]

As DE has so far not responded in any way to the Vazarin nerf feedback, I will from now on post a comment to bump it up every day.

At some point they might care.

[zhunGamer]

I might not bump it every day, but I'll still bump it every now and then.

[Nichivo]

On 2020-05-01 at 9:57 AM, Aezy said:

I'm not sure if you guys realize that with such a big nerf to vazarin's protective dash, you just made frost or limbo mandatory for anything above level 30 and did not AT ALL expend the number of frames being played in defense missions.

Before, any frame with some type of crowd control was fine. Not to mention the twenty other ways that nerf reduced the pool of viable frame, like now having to waste 80% of a build on squishy frames with no DR just to stay alive.

I can't wait for you to read this and conclude that the proper way forward is to nerf frost and limbo. 

This is not true! Gara, Volt, Mag, Equinox, Khora, Revenant, Wisp, Oberon, Saryn, Ember, Vauban, Hydroid, Inaros, even Loki etc etc there are a host of frames capable of keeping enemies from even damaging a defense objective either by cc, creating a barrier, disarming, using a decoy, or even outright killing them.

[selig_fay]

15 minutes ago, Nichivo said:

This is not true! Gara, Volt, Mag, Equinox, Khora, Revenant, Wisp, Oberon, Saryn, Ember, Vauban, Hydroid, Inaros, even Loki etc etc there are a host of frames capable of keeping enemies from even damaging a defense objective either by cc, creating a barrier, disarming, using a decoy, or even outright killing them.

This only proves the point of view of what CC>>healing now. I'm still waiting for nerf nucking and AoE weapons, because if they wanted to increase the utility of CC in this way, they can't do it without destroying the DPS frames, which will cause a lot more conversations.

[Nichivo]

7 minutes ago, zhellon said:

This only proves the point of view of what CC>>healing now. I'm still waiting for nerf nucking and AoE weapons, because if they wanted to increase the utility of CC in this way, they can't do it without destroying the DPS frames, which will cause a lot more conversations.

If you mean from a healing objectives stand point. Then technically cc has always trumped healing because cc'd and then dead mobs do no damage negating the need for healing an objective at all. The amount of healing Vazarin did in the past on objectives was actually broken. I have never needed Vazarin as crutch to heal objectives. So I really don't see what all the fuss is about here.

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, Nichivo said:

If you mean from a healing objectives stand point. Then technically cc has always trumped healing because cc'd and then dead mobs do no damage negating the need for healing an objective at all. The amount of healing Vazarin did in the past on objectives was actually broken. I have never needed Vazarin as crutch to heal objectives. So I really don't see what all the fuss is about here.

Well, there are frames that don't have good CC and nucking. There are people who played for fun and just used vazarin in emergencies. Well, there are some people who just like to heal.

It just killed one aspect (I'm not saying that no one can use vazarin, because I still use it for myself). I'm just not a fan of the idea of nerf healing healers. Give them some balance, maybe, but DE didn't give a balance here. Another point, in my eyes it looks as if zenuric energy dash got a cd in 2 minutes. This is still useful, but much less than before.

[Nichivo]

39 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Well, there are frames that don't have good CC and nucking. There are people who played for fun and just used vazarin in emergencies. Well, there are some people who just like to heal.

It just killed one aspect (I'm not saying that no one can use vazarin, because I still use it for myself). I'm just not a fan of the idea of nerf healing healers. Give them some balance, maybe, but DE didn't give a balance here. Another point, in my eyes it looks as if zenuric energy dash got a cd in 2 minutes. This is still useful, but much less than before.

what? 60% over 5 second was completely absurd healing. All they did was bring it down within the same range of other things, and give more options for people to  heal objectives with.

I would be more inclined to agree with an argument based on it needing to be slightly stronger due to time invested to get the skill. Then again I will repeat only slightly.

Almost forgot there is no cool down on energizing dash. I don't think adding one would make any real difference anyway.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, Nichivo said:

what? 60% over 5 second was completely absurd healing. All they did was bring it down within the same range of other things, and give more options for people to heal objectives with.

I would be more inclined to agree with an argument based on it needing to be slightly stronger due to time invested to get the skill. Then again I will repeat only slightly.

There is just a small nuance here. On the one hand, people say that the healing was strong, because 60% within 5 seconds. Others say that healing didn't make sense because there is CC/nucking/walls, and so the object doesn't take damage at all, and even if it does, passive regeneration works. The problem is, Yes, it was strong, but it's still a much weaker thing than some abilities. On the other hand, healing was not balanced then and it is not balanced now. For example, take the Wisp vs Vazarin. And this isn't even the best example, because Khora actually has the best healing for objects in the game. And this is without taking into account the fact that the dome is a strong control due to which the object does not receive damage at all.

[Flying_Scorpion]

I originally came in here defending DE for what they did with this update, but I will concede and admit now that they probably didn't get it quite perfect on their first try. Which is to be expected: in a game as complex and huge as Warframe, it should be expected that it will take multiple balance passes to get balance done right. The thing is, DE tends to do only one balance pass and then leave things alone for a long time afterward (like status effects - Viral and Heat being overpowered compared to pretty much everything else). Hopefully DE can figure out ways to make money while simultaneously fix balance in the game. I would support them putting a season pass that you can purchase, that allows you get special nightwave rewards in addition to the regular rewards that free-to-play players get. If that's what it takes for them to make enough money to put people to work on balancing the game, then I would support it.

[lowgrav]

so vazaran is gone well ill just bring a bunch of AI controled units to the match to kill and draw the enimy fire ....what the removed that from wuking oh well so im limited to only a max of 36-40 AI controled ally units to do my dirty work no biggie and to think i use to have to heal the defence target now i just nurf the enimys via damage reduction on what they do not what we take and speed reduction and just laugh at enimys as enimy weapon damage reduction is still a scaling mechanic

[Opyt]

On 2020-06-20 at 1:18 PM, Nichivo said:

what? 60% over 5 second was completely absurd healing. All they did was bring it down within the same range of other things, and give more options for people to  heal objectives with.

I would be more inclined to agree with an argument based on it needing to be slightly stronger due to time invested to get the skill. Then again I will repeat only slightly.

Almost forgot there is no cool down on energizing dash. I don't think adding one would make any real difference anyway.

I wasn't asking for much, 2%/s over 5s (total of 10%).  It would be useful across the board, as a % of the whole objective, making it even handed across the board.  I settled on 2% because it would total to 10% healing.  The thing I absolutely miss the most though was when you hit the objective with protective dash it gave you visual feedback that it was indeed actually doing something.  Now you rarely get that feeling because if you're in a position where you're going to see any benefit at all from healing a defense objective, its natural regen kicks in which overshadows the crappy lackluster nerf they did to it to the point where you will not notice the change unless an enemy turns up to shoot it and stop the natural regen.

When something is overshadowed by the objective's own healing it feels bad.  You could accomplish more just by using cc in the form of duration on your Excalibur's radial blind (2), Mag's Magnetize (also a 2) or Volt's shields (3).  It would do far more to help the objective maintain its healing and in most cases leaves the enemies in a worse off position.  When there's a better option right out of the gate (starter frames no less) than something that takes weeks-to-months to unlock, there's a major problem in my opinions.

[feralknights]

Please take another pass on Vazarin healing a defense objective.  It's still really, really straight-up bad, and strictly to me, still feels like a knee-jerk reaction over-nerf that got swept aside due to recent content.  I'm still bothered that the amount of time and resources I had to invest to get the ability -- and the school I've primaried/mained use of since the day The Second Dream first released -- is so badly hampered now when for so long it supplemented me to allow me to play the frames I want, when I want, on the missions I want to play, especially when I spend a lot of time now playing the game on solo mode.

Protea was fine and y'all just gave her a ludicrous buff so just, like, you know.  Look?  Please?  While you're giving ludicrous buffs?

 

[kyori]

On 2020-05-01 at 12:20 AM, [DE]Bear said:

Healing Abilities affect objects

Any intend to add Protea's Shield Satellite into the list? Presently it doesn't increase the shield of Rescue/Defence stuffs.

[selig_fay]

6 hours ago, kyori said:

Any intend to add Protea's Shield Satellite into the list? Presently it doesn't increase the shield of Rescue/Defence stuffs.

I am very sure that he restores the shield and gives a shieldgate, although the objects do not have this.

[DrivaMain]

So 2 months have passed. What is the meta for defense heal? continuous or sustained healing. Burst healing like Vazarin, Trinity Blessing, Sancti Magistar, and Equinox Mend cannot compete or outright useless. Crowd Control/Nuke frames are mandatory in defense now.

DE please do another balance pass on burst healing abilities, right now they cannot compete with the likes of Wisp Motes, Oberon's Renewal, Protea's Shield Satellite, etc. Make them percentage again but nerf the maximum percentage rate.

[Opyt]

I still haven't forgotten: percentage based healing please.

10%/5s (2% hp/s over 5s), for Trinity & Protective Dash, and then adjust the others where appropriate to a percentage based on these changes. (50hp/s becomes 0.2%/s, 100hp/s becomes 0.4%, and so on).  If more adjustment is needed, more adjustment can be made.

Percentage-based healing is a far superior alternative to flat amounts of healing.  As an objective increases in health, so should the healing done to it.

[T-Shark69]

On 2020-06-26 at 11:33 AM, DrivaMain said:

So 2 months have passed. What is the meta for defense heal? 

Oberon can spam his 3 to heal faster than the rest. They wanted to diversify but it just shifted the meta elsewhere, again.

[Opyt]

On 2020-07-03 at 4:08 AM, T-Shark69 said:

Oberon can spam his 3 to heal faster than the rest. They wanted to diversify but it just shifted the meta elsewhere, again.

That doesn't change that Protective Dash and Blessing (Trinity 4) are still limp noodles in the healing department.

Wisp is also strong, because she can set & forget for 99hp/s (might be more) with her hp mote which also increases maxhp of most of the objectives.

[zhunGamer]

I just wanted protective dash in excavation back because it was fun 😕

[Opyt]

With the addition of Steel Path, would you PLEASE reconsider the limp noodle & pigeon holing approach to stationary objective healing?

[NIkuno]

So, I have been away from the game for quite some time and found this change to be surprising. Read the notes, played a bit, and now providing feedback. Overall, I really like seeing more abilities working on objectives. It gives us support players a few more options. However, I have a few points I would like to bring forth.

1. I agree that the invuln on Protective Dash was entirely too strong. By sacrificing some of my damage depending on the build, I could keep an objective up indefinitely. Probably not the intent, but helpful as a support player.

2. Regarding Trinity's Blessing, and I did not see it mentioned in the notes, may also need to reflect some sort of change when healing moving objectives for a similar reason as above. Honestly, keeping operatives up turns into a joke. 

3. I do not agree with the Sancti Magistar change. Being enemy dependant, and sacrificing my condition overload damage (which is my main damage output), this should have not been nerfed as much. And honestly, how many people are actually using this weapon for it to see this sort of attention?

4. I agree with what seems to be majority opinion here that, at least for the most powerful heals, should be % based. 

[MasterBurik]

On 2020-07-08 at 6:08 PM, Opyt said:

With the addition of Steel Path, would you PLEASE reconsider the limp noodle & pigeon holing approach to stationary objective healing?

Lua?

[selig_fay]

5 hours ago, NIkuno said:

3. I do not agree with the Sancti Magistar change. Being enemy dependant, and sacrificing my condition overload damage (which is my main damage output), this should have not been nerfed as much. And honestly, how many people are actually using this weapon for it to see this sort of attention?

How long have you been playing? This thing has probably had a cap for 2 years. This did not restore more than 200hp.

[NIkuno]

10 hours ago, selig_fay said:

How long have you been playing? This thing has probably had a cap for 2 years. This did not restore more than 200hp.

Quite some time, and, admittedly, I did not pay much attention to how it interacted with objectives specifically beforehand. It was not a good weapon and did not get much use from someone who actually liked it. Even after getting significantly buffed with the melee changes it does not get much use, at least while I am doing the Steel Path.

 

EDIT: Because I was confused when you mentioned a cap, I wanted to clarify a particular point after looking it up: I used a channeling+ attack speed build. Apparently, that bypassed the cap that I did not even know existed.