Sergeant > Eidolons, Why remove DR on Shields?

[MPonder]

Soloing eidolons were already easy if one had the knowledge on how to do it (and had done the horrible focus grind + amp parts) and it is much faster if you know, come with more 3 people. I really don't understand this nerf on eidolon's shields done this way. All because some inexperienced player cryed "shield phase takes too long"?

Video done today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfdQNHRXgvk

Check first eidolons shield speed in the start and Third eidolon's shield at 6:30 and compare with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W65f8meRw8U , pos mainline with all that xit -> lockdown nerf, self stagger and fall-off on amps, enemy armor scaling, etc. Third eidolon at 7:22

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When you see someone saying to buff amps damage, if you have experience in Eidolon Hunt, you know 2 things, this person in inexperienced and is lacking some basic knowledge to even talk about it, like how amps damage works on eidolons.

The formula for amp damage on Eidolon's shields is this:

Amp Damage vs Eidolons = Theoretical Damage x 0.04 + 108 / Fire Rate

Amp Crit-Damage vs Eidolons = Theoretical Damage x 2 x Crit Multiplier x 0.04 + 108 / Fire Rate

That 0.04 means your amp damage is been reduced 25 times and if you see on crit damage part, you get a 2x multiplier for free (dunno why), that's why amps for eidolons need to have good base critical chance together with virtuos shadow, also because volt's shield buff only works (for eidolons shields) when you crit.

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How to buff Amp damage without buffing too much veterans:

Change that formula to:

Amp Damage vs Eidolons = Theoretical Damage x 0.08 + 108 / Fire Rate

Amp Crit-Damage vs Eidolons = Theoretical Damage  x Crit Multiplier x 0.08 + 108 / Fire Rate

With this, you buff amp non-crit damage and keep crit damage part the same. This would buff a lot new players/Inexperience players shield phase time. But strait up removing DR on shields was a garbage decision and dumb.

[MPonder]

Also, teleport from lures are weird and voms seems to not been spawning after last limb break, making it difficult to have enough lures charged for kill time.

[anarchy753]

So what you're saying is that you can basically manage the exact same thing in the exact same way, which is unacceptable because the change makes a boss fight (which has forever been criticised for its insane entry requirements, massive grinds of that same boss to get those entry requirements, and long boring shield phases) more accessible to players new to that fight?

 

To clarify, it hasn't really affected your gameplay, but it's slightly easier for less experienced people to get into it.

 

Now why in the world do people think Eidolon hunters have a terrible elitist, anti-new-player attitude?

[MPonder]

24 minutes ago, anarchy753 said:

To clarify, it hasn't really affected your gameplay, but it's slightly easier for less experienced people to get into it.

We are talking about a 25x times buff on amp damage. And I suggested one way to buff new players. Entry requirements has to be fixed in another way, more focus gain, remove daily limit, make it easy to max fortuna/certus sindicates.

And how bugged voms are, new players are gonna kill eidolons before lures are changed a lot of time.

 

[DrivaMain]

30 minutes ago, anarchy753 said:

Now why in the world do people think Eidolon hunters have a terrible elitist, anti-new-player attitude?

Probably because they only encounter 1 toxic hunter and then proceeds to declare that ALL Eidolon Hunters are whiny elitists.

I met a lot of friendly 5x3ers. So there’s that.

Edited May 2, 2020 by DrivaMain

[CapriSunny]

The shield phase was not challenging, just tedious and boring.

[MPonder]

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Probably because they only encounter 1 toxic hunter and then proceeds to declare that ALL Eidolon Hunters are whiny elitists.

Nah, they never played with Eidolons hunters in the first place, they just played with a random guy doing some nightwave on Konzu, and assume it is.

Eidolons hunt is so chill, people are usually talking random stuff when doing it, lol.

[(NSW)Matt-S]

I'm a little confused here.

Since you're an Eidolon pro, you should know very well how frustrating and unfun Eidolons are before you get everything you need to one shot the shields, especially since a lot of those tools are locked behind ridiculous standing grinds that require you to do Eidolons (Virtous Shadow mainly, since Vox Solaris exists now). This simply allows people to feel like they're able to progress at a decent rate without wanting to bang their head against a wall.

You still need all these tools to one shot the shield, so... what is the issue? I don't think making Eidolons easier is a poor move, as Eidolons are actually pretty badly designed overall as the gameplay loop isn't very fun -- it's just one of the rare pieces of content where optimising actually brings significant results.

I also do Eidolons in the same way as you (although on Switch we only do 3x3 due to our extremely good loading times), but this doesn't really matter at all.

[MPonder]

1 minute ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

I'm a little confused here.

Since you're an Eidolon pro, you should know very well how frustrating and unfun Eidolons are before you get everything you need to one shot the shields, especially since a lot of those tools are locked behind ridiculous standing grinds that require you to do Eidolons (Virtous Shadow mainly, since Vox Solaris exists now). This simply allows people to feel like they're able to progress at a decent rate without wanting to bang their head against a wall.

You still need all these tools to one shot the shield, so... what is the issue? I don't think making Eidolons easier is a poor move, as Eidolons are actually pretty badly designed overall as the gameplay loop isn't very fun -- it's just one of the rare pieces of content where optimising actually brings significant results.

I also do Eidolons in the same way as you (although on Switch we only do 3x3 due to our extremely good loading times), but this doesn't really matter at all.

I already agreed with the horrible grind the time I made the post "(and had done the horrible focus grind + amp parts) " . I don't also think doing eidolons easier and more accessible is a poor move but sergeanting them is. But you don't need all these tools anymore.

I can't test other amps because I deleted them for reasons, but you probably can oneshot First/Second eidolons with just Pencha + the madurai charge you get between limbs breaks.

[Famecans]

I have a maximum of 5 hydrol captured 😕

This is content that uses end-of-game features, there is nothing more to be amplified besides riven mods, so technically there is no nerf or bufs, just the illusion that you are the fastest player in the game

[SneakyErvin]

This sounds more like there has been an unintended mechanic for eidolons since there is no specific mention of a change or fix to their shields in any patch that I can find.

And when did slower killing mean more challenge or difficulty? The fights themselves arent very challenging, just extremely boring, flashy and extremely "in your face". If anything has changed even though the notes dont specify anything, the fights havent gotten easier, they've  just gotten shorter and less tedious.

Length and tediousness =/= challenge or difficulty

[Famecans]

11 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

This sounds more like there has been an unintended mechanic for eidolons since there is no specific mention of a change or fix to their shields in any patch that I can find.

And when did slower killing mean more challenge or difficulty? The fights themselves arent very challenging, just extremely boring, flashy and extremely "in your face". If anything has changed even though the notes dont specify anything, the fights havent gotten easier, they've  just gotten shorter and less tedious.

Length and tediousness =/= challenge or difficulty

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1171894-warframe-revised-armor-health-shield-changes-megathread/?tab=comments#comment-11397409

...maybe that?

Edited May 2, 2020 by Famecans

[0_The_F00l]

Oh another post where OP is miffed about his meta "top tier"ness being a little less top tier for eidolons cause now alternates exist.

 

hmm , i might go fight a few eidolons.

 

Oh wait ... is it still the migraine inducing rave fest?

yeah i don't think its enough of an incentive for me , the hunters can keep going.

Edited May 2, 2020 by 0_The_F00l

[Zsword]

The matter that Amp damage needs buffed is also irrelevant to Eidolons, because Amps are more or less useless outside of Eidolon content which is what a major part of amps needing buffed lies. There's also the fact that there is almost nothing you can do gameplay wise as a player to buff amp damage due to operators being immune to warframe abilities (For no reason) besides shooting through Volt shields which in my experience seems to have no or minimal effects: Another *2 modifier on crits isn't much when most amps have a modest 2.0 or 1.6 base crit multiplier, and Eidolons remain as immune to the bonus electric damage as ever. Outside of Eidolons, electric is just an Okay element on it's own as is, primarily effective against enemies that aren't worth building for. Though in spite of that, I welcome the fact that Eidolons don't have arbitrary numbers nerfing plot armor so that people aren't shoehorned into Shwaak to be relevant.

I'd also say that people with 150+ Hydro captures are the ones who should be ignored for this discussion, as they are the .01% that are unaffected by this change and didn't need it, and your suggested resolution shows a severe short-sided view on the matter: EIdolon Shields weren't about 'twice' as durable as they should be, with your suggested change not even doubling damage output, they were almost tenfold the length that could be remotely considered fun, particularly for the content that is intended to be entry level operator mechanics.

Also please elaborate on why the people who are least affected and least benefited (but still benefited!) by the change are the only people who should be discussing the change? Wouldn't it make sense for the people that the change was intended for, you know, the ones with 0 Teralyst Kills, let alone captures, who couldn't get their foot in the door, be the ones to state why this change is better for entry level Operator content?

[(NSW)Matt-S]

12 minutes ago, Zsword said:

besides shooting through Volt shields which in my experience seems to have no or minimal effects: Another *2 modifier on crits isn't much when most amps have a modest 2.0 or 1.6 base crit multiplier,

This isn't true. Criticals are really stupid strong on the Eidolon shields, and Volt's shield gives a further bonus to that. I'm not privy to all the detailed mechanics myself, but a regular 7 scaffold hit feels like a wet noodle without a critical, then it will just one shot the entire shield with one when going through a Volt's Shield that crits with Void Strike stacked.

Personally I find it stupid myself that only Volt can boost operator damage in this way, but it is what it is!

[MPonder]

8 minutes ago, (NSW)Matt-S said:

This isn't true. Criticals are really stupid strong on the Eidolon shields, and Volt's shield gives a further bonus to that. I'm not privy to all the detailed mechanics myself, but a regular 7 scaffold hit feels like a wet noodle without a critical, then it will just one shot the entire shield with one when going through a Volt's Shield that crits with Void Strike stacked.

Personally I find it stupid myself that only Volt can boost operator damage in this way, but it is what it is!

because crit already get a 2x multiplier from eidolons shields, a amp with 2.0 crit damage when it crits, will get the 2x from eidolon's shield, and plus another 2x on Volt shields, put unairu on top of that, and is another 2x. Going for a 16x multiplier.

[TheLexiConArtist]

Here's my considerations:

1. Volt's Shield should have been invalidated from amps when Kavat crit was, for consistency. No question.
2. Proccing Virtuos Shadow without actually shooting the head (i.e. using a void dash instead) is heavily questionable as an intended mechanic, seems more like an oversight
   • Accessing this extra crit reliability should really require a well-placed shot, which goes against the Void Strike stacking meta in squads, oh no.
3. Soloing was only 'easy' if you abused questionable interaction mechanics such as the above, and also Restore consumables.
   A more average solo approach, while possible, is much more likely to take up the majority of the cycle per tricap due to being spread thinner over the several duties including actually protecting lures, since the delays in this case prevents just DPS racing their inevitable destruction. (Vazarin focus for dash = no Unairu for amp; healy/protection frame = no Volt benefits)

 

Since I don't recall seeing a direct statement in patch notes, I'd presume it's probably a bug regardless, but it would be a welcome one. 150+ captures is more than enough to burn anyone out on the tedium of it, and that's speaking even disregarding the eye-searing issues (and my own personal game performance issues these days).

Eidolon hunts have pigeonholed players' options too much, too long.

[JackHargreav]

So they are easier?

Well I still can't give a damn.

[Zsword]

I have to say, whoever the mod is that's filtering this conversation is doing an impressive job, though it's subverting an important factor of the OPs rhetoric as covering up a statement that shows the baseline of his ethos. I do appreciate the effort to keep this clean, but to just remove that statement, is a little, I want to say dirty? Suspect? (you also missed a spot in my first post in the discussion.)

[vanaukas]

A nice time to build and try more amps. 727(+virtuos strike) is the one I like right now for eidolon, 773(+virtuos trojan) for regular content and 777(+virtuos strike) for sentients. I usually can run 1 tridolon per night without rushing and without using dps gimmicks (madurai/unairu, no volt or buffer) besides a strong weapon. I think whatever approach to eidolon is nice, it's a cool fight (it can be improved tho) and the rewards are mandatory to unlock your true operator power.

[MPonder]

Amps crit 100% of the time too. No need for virtuos shadow + dash in eidolon anymore.

Edited May 2, 2020 by MPonder

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Famecans said:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1171894-warframe-revised-armor-health-shield-changes-megathread/?tab=comments#comment-11397409

...maybe that?

Shouldnt have any effect on eidolons since their level is lower than the breakingpoint for the S curve.

I'm still trying to figure out what OP is actually trying to say, specifically with the "Why remove DR on shields?" in his topic title. His post does not really explain it and shields never had DR. Unless he refers to DR as something else or found some undocumented change.

[MetallicFusion15]

The fact that you acknowledged that getting to that point where the shield are "easy" means that you now why they nerfed the shields, not saying they did it right but the fact that the focus grind AND the amp grind which are both extremely important in this fight are so hard to get gives you perspective on why, sure you as a more experienced player may be able to say that things are too easy but as you get further into a game that is simply how things will be and this goes double for warframe given it's design.

[Zsword]

Just now, SneakyErvin said:

I'm still trying to figure out what OP is actually trying to say, specifically with the "Why remove DR on shields?" in his topic title. His post does not really explain it and shields never had DR. Unless he refers to DR as something else or found some undocumented change.

Eidolons have/had artificial (arbitrary) 'plot armor'/damage reduction separate from standard resistances. They just take less damage than they should because. Or took, as I haven't really noticed eidolons being more or less durable with changes, but I do know they were originally given all sorts of superficial bonus damage reduction (like, 90%+) from various sources at various stages, because, by original design, a Teralyst fight was intended to take all night, and instead of giving Tery millions/billions of HP, they just lowered the amount of damage it takes.

The OP is complaining that at least part of this damage reduction is gone/nerfed, thus making a very slow, tedious, and borderline pointless stage of the fight, a smidge faster. To the point that, according to the OP, that they're killing the eidolons faster than they can charge lures.

[SneakyErvin]

2 minutes ago, Zsword said:

Eidolons have/had artificial (arbitrary) 'plot armor'/damage reduction separate from standard resistances. They just take less damage than they should because. Or took, as I haven't really noticed eidolons being more or less durable with changes, but I do know they were originally given all sorts of superficial bonus damage reduction (like, 90%+) from various sources at various stages, because, by original design, a Teralyst fight was intended to take all night, and instead of giving Tery millions/billions of HP, they just lowered the amount of damage it takes.

The OP is complaining that at least part of this damage reduction is gone/nerfed, thus making a very slow, tedious, and borderline pointless stage of the fight, a smidge faster. To the point that, according to the OP, that they're killing the eidolons faster than they can charge lures.

So it is an undocumented change that may or may not be a bug and OP blows yet another fuse cos he loves his chal... uhm tedium.