Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

Granum voids as content have the lifespan of a fart. No one cares about that

That's an argument for not caring after the Xoris at all after it's farmed though. It's an MR4 weapon. You're supposed to drop it at some point.

[paulogabbi]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

What else do you propose as a solution that goes beyond "Never make a mistake"? They want for the weapon to have an infinite timer because of the Granun Void. They don't want it to work as convenience for weapons that benefit from it as it means effectively using it as nothing more than an ability booster?

You have a problem with that? Then at least help them find out a solution that meets your demands while still respecting what they set out to do. 

too bad DE ignores feedback RIGHT ?

[AlphaBankai]

Oh hey! Another opportunity to just copy and paste a message I originally copy pasted from multiple of my youtube/reddit comments! Anyone who wants can go check my Steam profile with the same user name as this one, after 900 hours of play, some good 100$ dollarydoos put into this game, I am happy to say I haven't been playing Warframe all that much, in fact,m its been a month since I booted it at all, and have been actively telling people to avoid it due to ABSOLUTE POISON like this. Here's the excerpt:

Might as well not play the game anymore if the most impressive parts of new weapon of the update are gonna get jumped on and nerfed instead of bringing the rest up to its caliber. Or in this case, more like recognizing the place it has on the players.

STOP LOOKING AT STUPID USAGE CHARTS FOR ABSOLUTELY #*!%ING EVERYTHING. STOP ACTING LIKE YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE TRENDING THUMBNAILS ON YOUTUBE THAT ARE MADE TO BE EYE-CATCHY CLICKBAITY "CRAZY RED-CRIT BUILD" INSTEAD OF INVESTIGATING THE PROBLEM, YOU DIDN'T EVEN MANAGE TO GIVE BELIEVEABLE, TRUE CAUSES FOR THE "ISSUE" IN THIS ONE.

It genuinely looks like something a "min-maxer" who is angry about their favorite build not being the only viable one anymore. Did you guys ACTUALLY, ACTUALLY do a damage testing with the Xoris and the frames you are SAYING were getting too powerful for it? Does anyone in your staff that tests this ACTUALLY have the Focus Tree in use? Do you guys know about stat sticks? Because they have been a thing for LITERAL YEARS, they have been dealing DOZENS OF MILLIONS OF DAMAGE FOR YEARS. And the XORIS breaks the META? The XORIS!?!? THE XORIS IS A "use it or you are doing it wrong" WEAPON?! Are you being ACTUALLY for real right now? This is SO MANY MILES out of touch with your own product it is physically hurtful. It sounds like ACTUAL trolling in 2020. A joke. Sounds like some INSANE crazy S#&$ a newbie might spew on region chat. The XORIS is QUALITY over DAMAGE, thats like, ITS WHOLE THING. Its an early-level, easy to do quest that GUARANTEES that weapon. This isn't a CATCHMOON situation. This is an Excalibur/Volt/Mag usage chart situation. This is all so tiring and infuriating.

What about the over 150+ primary weapons that are mediocre right now? So much unique stuff there already in the game, lying unused since 2017 or earlier.
What about the Gas status effect? You built all this GREAT stuff for the rework patch, I SAW NEWS ARTICLES ABOUT IT, IT MADE ME WANT TO TRY OUT BUILDS AGAIN, most of it was reaaally great, some of it was shot into hell, been a long long while that feedback has been sent. HOW ABOUT THAT for keeping players interested and invested? WOW. Maybe we only use a couple of the weapons because the rest suck ass.

[(XBOX)Quik8201]

20 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Seems like they could. They'll review the stat stick system as a whole now as per tonight's stream.

That's the thing.. Why nerf for overwhelming damage when there are several other, more effective avenues for overwhelming damage that won't be touched? Oh yeah, because rivens = $$$. By the way, I've used the Xoris "as a weapon" and there are tons of other weapons more effective and less clunky. The issue here isn't balance, it's just a premature response to a lot of hype. People love the weapon as a stat stick. People love the stat stick mechanic. Why try to fix something that isn't broken?

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, paulogabbi said:

healing system revision was not "quick" by any mean

It only took 1 month from the Venari debacle. I think we have different definitions of what "quick" means in the context of reviewing the entire system, all abilities, testing them and programming the function for those who didn't have it.

[paulogabbi]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It only took 1 month from the Venari debacle. I think we have different definitions of what "quick" means in the context of reviewing the entire system, all abilities, testing them and programming the function for those who didn't have it.

1 month because of venari and 6 years because it was a old as hell problem

people asked to be able to heal objetives but De ignored it, if it was not because DE have a spaghetti code and venari was able to do it this problem should exist even now

[Siaw]

To the whiteknight/s in this thread who apparently can’t read the suggestions some people gave I’ll make a list:

• Xoris with an innate version of Naramon Power Spike
• Longer Combo Duration instead of infinite
• Use a % of the combo if certain abilities are used (instead of all)
• Stronger stats ( so its usable by itself)
• Get rid of stat sticks entirely
• Make the rest of the mods usable by exalted weapons
• Buff exalted weapons
• etc...

[MasterBurik]

5 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

What else do you propose as a solution that goes beyond "Never make a mistake"? They want for the weapon to have an infinite timer because of the Granun Void. They don't want it to work as convenience for weapons that benefit from it as it means effectively using it as nothing more than an ability booster?

You have a problem with that? Then at least help them find out a solution that meets your demands while still respecting what they set out to do. 

Don't make any changes to the Xoris at all until they go over stat sticks as a whole. That way there isn't an additional bundle of spaghetti code to trip over, when they dive into that monstrosity of conditionals rules and "hidden" mechanics.

[vFlitz]

11 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That's an argument for not caring after the Xoris at all after it's farmed though. It's an MR4 weapon. You're supposed to drop it at some point.

MR is a poor excuse for justifying anything, always has been.

Staticor is MR 10 and Ballistica Prime is MR 14, guess which one is better?

Akjagara is MR 8 and requires Akbolto to craft, which is MR 9

Tysis is MR 9 but is often used by endurance runners in extreme high end content thanks to its status output and damage type composition.

Mutalist Cernos is MR 7 and it can kill levelcap demolishers in respectable time, something pretty much no other primary can accomplish

You could probably go on with countless more examples.

Also. Xoris might be a MR 4 weapon, but not every MR 4 player will have acolyte mods that bring out its full potential. So it's not as if new players are handed something amazing on a silver platter

[KingTaltia]

This is not a good change.
This changes NOTHING except makes an arguable meh weapon no longer fun.
The Xorris is not powerful, and the Xorris IS NOT THE SOURCE OF THIS. This build has been around FOR LITERAL AGES AND USED VENKA. I thought of this build back when the Venka released. The Xorris is having a fun little interaction removed when, what? You only had to come out of your Exhalted every Fifteen seconds? MINUTES if you elected to bring the "Combo Decays" passive. Fifteen seconds is a long time in the middle of a mission.
Please don't DE, this is actually fun.

[Jarriaga]

12 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

You're missing the point. If you actually try to use xoris on any of the affected frames, if at any point you decide to use any of the abilities in question even once your counter will be reset. Even if you call it a minor detriment, it still exists, and wouldn't happen for any other weapon

So becomes a situation of either don't use xoris with those frames or don't touch those abilities when using xoris, and that's bullS#&$

You are right there. This is the only weapon in the game that functions differently per frame. I can't think of a solution that works as a middle ground.

13 minutes ago, paulogabbi said:

whiteknights are something else, i am sure this people think any nerf De does is justified

 

16 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

To the whiteknight/s in this thread who apparently can’t read the suggestions some people gave I’ll make a list:

• Xoris with an innate version of Naramon Power Spike
• Longer Combo Duration instead of infinite
• Use a % of the combo if certain abilities are used (instead of all)
• Stronger stats ( so its usable by itself)
• Get rid of stat sticks entirely
• Make the rest of the mods usable by exalted weapons
• Buff exalted weapons
• etc...

Arbitrations nerf was a mistake. Fortuna week 1 difficulty was a mistake. Calling Venari's healing a bug was a mistake. Nerfing Khora and Limbo because of Scarlet spear was a mistake. Rushing Empyrean was a mistake. The Dog Days balancing was a mistake.

I just don't think this is. And just because this time I don't think it's a mistake doesn't mean I'm a drone unless you happen to think I must always reject nerfs at all times. If this makes me a whiteknight because I am not allowed to agree and disagree individually in a case by case situation then by all means pass on the polish so I can luster the armor. 

I didn't get upset at DE for ignoring the path they had taken with regards to Scarlet Spear, then Railjack before it, then the Old Blood Before it.

I didn't get upset when they released Split Flights without warning that it wouldn't work with Crossbows.

I didn't get angry at DE for the initial balancing of Scarlet Spear.

I didn't complain at the original Lich system having no evergreen value.

I didn't get angry when they reworked Arbitrations by diluting the drop tables while keeping the revive system.

I didn't write a 4 page post listing every single thing I believe DE did wrong in 2019 including possible false advertisement.

By all means, ignore every single criticism I have ever lobbied at DE when it's convenient to do so because you can't even fathom the thought of someone being OK with this change without being a white knight. If your only two choices are "Share my point of view" or "You are a white knight" then you might as well say that you guys are a hive mind with no individual agency or priorities. And I don't want to be a part of that.

17 minutes ago, (XB1)Quik8201 said:

That's the thing.. Why nerf for overwhelming damage when there are several other, more effective avenues for overwhelming damage that won't be touched? Oh yeah, because rivens = $$$. By the way, I've used the Xoris "as a weapon" and there are tons of other weapons more effective and less clunky. The issue here isn't balance, it's just a premature response to a lot of hype. People love the weapon as a stat stick. People love the stat stick mechanic. Why try to fix something that isn't broken?

If they remove Riven scaling I don't think you'll be able to use that argument any longer. And sure there are much better weapons than the Xoris. It's just that they are likely to be in a higher MR bracket, which means they are expected to be better. And just because people like stat sticks doesn't mean DE are OK with people flat-out only using it for the purpose of being a stat stick and nothing more than a stat stick. I now understand why they didn't add a new melee weapon with the melee MOA.

27 minutes ago, Greystrun said:

Ohh, that's cool, man! I didn't know that... I'll give it a thought while I murder those specters like in a blender with Mesa, or Banshee... or Revenant!

I don't see how you being efficient with Mesa relates to a mechanic that is unique to the Xoris in that game mode. 

27 minutes ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

I'm not sure if that's good or bad news.

If we go by the Venari situation, it's going to be both. Good for some frames. Bad for others. They'll likely try to equalize.

19 minutes ago, paulogabbi said:

1 month because of venari and 6 years because it was a old as hell problem

people asked to be able to heal objetives but De ignored it, if it was not because DE have a spaghetti code and venari was able to do it this problem should exist even now

I had not seen many posts from people asking to be able to heal objectives. In fact, that's something some abilities were able to do. Just not consistently. So I'll take your word for it while taking into account that just like the Xoris, Venari was the detonator that resulted in DE saying they will revise the system. And it only took them a month from there.

13 minutes ago, MasterBurik said:

Don't make any changes to the Xoris at all until they go over stat sticks as a whole. That way there isn't an additional bundle of spaghetti code to trip over, when they dive into that monstrosity of conditionals rules and "hidden" mechanics.

That's a fair solution. But that only means increased backlash as time goes on until the behavior is changed. Kuva Bramma only took 3-4 months and people were pissed.

9 minutes ago, vFlitz said:

MR is a poor excuse for justifying anything, always has been.

Staticor is MR 10 and Ballistica Prime is MR 14, guess which one is better?

Akjagara is MR 8 and requires Akbolto to craft, which is MR 9

Tysis is MR 9 but is often used by endurance runners in extreme high end content thanks to its status output and damage type composition.

Mutalist Cernos is MR 7 and it can kill levelcap demolishers in respectable time, something pretty much no other primary can accomplish

You could probably go on with countless more examples.

Also. Xoris might be a MR 4 weapon, but not every MR 4 player will have acolyte mods that bring out its full potential. So it's not as if new players are handed something amazing on a silver platter

It is not a poor excuse when DE made a public post stating weapon performance ballpark was being tied to MR rank. It literally means that an MR4 weapon is not meant to compete with an MR14 weapon in any way, shape or form. If you find the performance of a low-tier weapon to be lackluster then move on to a higher performance bracket. If you have a problem with this then take it to DE. They make the rules, not you or me. If some weapons are outliers for their expected MR performance ballpark bracket not accounting for Rivens then they should be adjusted. That doesn't change what the design intent is.

 

[Adi1908PL]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

And just because people like stat sticks doesn't mean DE are OK with people flat-out only using it for the purpose of being a stat stick and nothing more than a stat stick.

Yeah. Better way is to force people to not use it at all 😂😂😂

[darkheart2033]

so its back to the builds that where stronger but less convenient. nice to know that convenience is over powered. can we also make it so rivens on a stat stick dont effect warframe abilities aswell.

[paulogabbi]

1 minute ago, Adi1908PL said:

Yeah. Better way is to force people to not use it at all 😂😂😂

well you know, a  programmer friend of mine once say "thinking is hard adding/removing zeros  is easy"

[darkheart2033]

1 minute ago, Adi1908PL said:

Yeah. Better way is to force people to not use it at all 😂😂😂

ye the weapon fells so awfull to use if it wasnt a good stat stick i would of never used it outside of farming protea XD

[Burned_Onion]

what about rivens?????? rivens do far more overpower then Xoris what about that?

[Greystrun]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't see how you being efficient with Mesa relates to a mechanic that is unique to the Xoris in that game mode. 

You're the one who mentioned this mechanic, I'm just saying that it's not even worth doing so

[RFaul]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

Reb addressed the Xoris situation in today's stream: 

1) They will proceed to make the change. The stand behind their decision.

2) DE will look into the "stat stick" system as a whole and the role it plays in scaling. Nothing concrete to share beyond the Xoris change.

 

I really am afraid of 2.... More nerfs inc?

 

Seriously Xoris Nerf???

This is such a bad interpretation of the game. Using Xoris with infinite duration is just convenient not to have to refresh charges once in a while but this kind of gameplay already existed for ages!!! In fact in many of these examples using Xoris was a bad choice from damage perspective. Seriously it was just a fair trade: less  damage for not having to refresh charges once in a while or even choosing a different school of focus.

This is so bad, so many times in this game a weapon gets nerfed to trash status because it offered a different effect that opened up different approaches to gameplay.
 

I do sincerly believe that undoing nerfs like AoE changes, nerfs to Trinity and weapons with different effects like Synoid Simulor, Telos Boltace, Zenistar, others that were affected by not doing headshots, Basmu  and others from  would cause more diversification than what we have now.

[Adi1908PL]

1 minute ago, paulogabbi said:

well you know, a  programmer friend of mine once say "thinking is hard adding/removing zeros  is easy"

But to be honest, there don't have to be any thinking involved. It's enough to leave it as it is, and for once make the game convenient for players...

[paulogabbi]

7 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

You are right there. This is the only weapon in the game that functions differently per frame. I can't think of a solution that works as a middle ground.

 

Arbitrations nerf was a mistake. Fortuna week 1 difficulty was a mistake. Calling Venari's healing a bug was a mistake. Nerfing Khora and Limbo because of Scarlet spear was a mistake. Rushing Empyrean was a mistake. The Dog Days balancing was a mistake.

I just don't think this is. And just because this time I don't think it's a mistake doesn't mean I'm a drone unless you happen to think I must always reject nerfs at all times. If this makes me a whiteknight because I am not allowed to agree and disagree individually in a case by case situation then by all means pass on the polish so I can luster the armor. 

I didn't get upset at DE for ignoring the path they had taken with regards to Scarlet Spear, then Railjack before it, then the Old Blood Before it.

I didn't get upset when they released Split Flights without warning that it wouldn't work with Crossbows.

I didn't get angry at DE for the initial balancing of Scarlet Spear.

I didn't complain at the original Lich system having no evergreen value.

I didn't get angry when they reworked Arbitrations by diluting the drop tables while keeping the revive system.

I didn't write a 4 page post listing every single thing I believe DE did wrong in 2019 including possible false advertisement.

By all means, ignore every single criticism I have ever lobbied at DE when it's convenient to do so because you can't even fathom the thought of someone being OK with this change without being a white knight. If your only two choices are "Share my point of view" or "You are a white knight" then you might as well say that you guys are a hive mind with no individual agency or priorities. And I don't want to be a part of that.

If they remove Riven scaling I don't think you'll be able to use that argument any longer. And sure there are much better weapons than the Xoris. It's just that they are likely to be in a higher MR bracket, which means they are expected to be better. And just because people like stat sticks doesn't mean DE are OK with people flat-out only using it for the purpose of being a stat stick and nothing more than a stat stick. I now understand why they didn't add a new melee weapon with the melee MOA.

I don't see how you being efficient with Mesa relates to a mechanic that is unique to the Xoris in that game mode. 

If we go by the Venari situation, it's going to be both. Good for some frames. Bad for others. They'll likely try to equalize.

I had not seen many posts from people asking to be able to heal objectives. In fact, that's something some abilities were able to do. Just not consistently. So I'll take your word for it while taking into account that just like the Xoris, Venari was the detonator that resulted in DE saying they will revise the system. And it only took them a month from there.

That's a fair solution. But that only means increased backlash as time goes on until the behavior is changed. Kuva Bramma only took 3-4 months and people were pissed.

It is not a poor excuse when DE made a public post stating weapon performance ballpark was being tied to MR rank. It literally means that an MR4 weapon is not meant to compete with an MR14 weapon in any way, shape or form. If you find the performance of a low-tier weapon to be lackluster then move on to a higher performance bracket. If you have a problem with this then take it to DE. They make the rules, not you or me. If some weapons are outliers for their expected MR performance ballpark bracket not accounting for Rivens then they should be adjusted. That doesn't change what the design intent is.

 

sorry but it being a "unique interaction" is not worth to mention when it is useless in 99.99% of the content

because broken specter can heal you if you use it in a corpse but

A No one use it because it is a S#&$ty melee
B it is a S#&$ty interaction

exact like xoris

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, Adi1908PL said:

Yeah. Better way is to force people to not use it at all 😂😂😂

Something's got to give. You can't go left and right at once.

[paulogabbi]

Just now, Adi1908PL said:

But to be honest, there don't have to be any thinking involved. It's enough to leave it as it is, and for once make the game convenient for players...

we are talking about DE here forgot ? "convenient" mean Fun and this word is banned in game

also it reduce the need of riven so De need to remove it because Riven generates money to De

and De is not know for "thinking on smart solutions"

[paulogabbi]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

Something's got to give. You can't go left and right at once.

well yeah because warframe is in beta and de have like 5 employees, so you cannot expect a triple A team working on beta testing a weapon how is rewarding from a MR4 quest, and the quest in question lasts 2h max

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, Greystrun said:

You're the one who mentioned this mechanic, I'm just saying that it's not even worth doing so

 

4 minutes ago, paulogabbi said:

sorry but it being a "unique interaction" is not worth to mention when it is useless in 99.99% of the content

because broken specter can heal you if you use it in a corpse but

A No one use it because it is a S#&$ty melee
B it is a S#&$ty interaction

exact like xoris

Doesn't change what the design intent is. I am not quantifying its relevance, usefulness or viability. Merely pointing out its existence because that's how it was designed to be.

[paulogabbi]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

 

Doesn't change what the design intent is. I am not quantifying its relevance, usefulness or viability. Merely pointing out its existence because that's how it's intended to be used.

yeah so why not remove the melee after the quest ? because we don't need it anymore

also i am not mad because xoris is nerfed

i am mad because De do this type of thing all the type, launch something without testing it and punish players for investing on it