The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

7 hours ago, Syndis said:

Are you sure they don't use our mod configs?

The mods are ranked Bronze (common 1 star), Silver (uncommon 2 star), Gold (rare 3 star), Platinum (rivin/Prime/etc 4 star) ... I'm pretty sure the specters can only use mods up to their mod/star level ... it's a hold over from the Solar Rails that used to be in the game.

Standard spectors (Ones with stars) dont use configs thats why they dont use the mods and use default stats. Their power is determined by the mission lv. 

Spectors like umbra's passive, or wukongs clone use our configs but we dont have conformation that he'll use the consumed abilitys.

[selig_fay]

11 hours ago, (XB1)Baron Kit said:

Vex armor isn't being given out Willy nilly and you also (maybe on purpose) forget roar works on abilities aswell so even if you're correct.

There are many frames where weapons are the only source of damage (and exalted weapons are weapons). On the other hand, as I've already written many times, there are many ways to increase your dps against normal mobs without damage buff abilities. Arcanes, CC, Energy. And I think putting a roar on a banshee would be very stupid, for example.

Each frame should have an individual approach. But you people just shout that you put roar everywhere, so it will break the game. But what problem are you solving with it? Lack of damage? this problem may not exist, which means roar is a senseless loss of potential.

[(XBOX)Baron Kit]

30 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

There are many frames where weapons are the only source of damage (and exalted weapons are weapons). On the other hand, as I've already written many times, there are many ways to increase your dps against normal mobs without damage buff abilities. Arcanes, CC, Energy. And I think putting a roar on a banshee would be very stupid, for example.

Each frame should have an individual approach. But you people just shout that you put roar everywhere, so it will break the game. But what problem are you solving with it? Lack of damage? this problem may not exist, which means roar is a senseless loss of potential.

The Brama nukor and catchmoon back the argument of roar everywhere. It's what people do. It's how it works in this game and nearly every other game.

 

Same thing with fashion frame even. Everyone claims to work hard on color combos yet mass majority are black and red.

[KaristonsWrath]

I dont think this would need to be nerfed too bad (except maybe a few stand out ones...).
Your legit sacrificing an entire frame to buff another.
I think at worst it will be "You can transfer the ability once per frame sacrificed" if nerfed

Its sort of like the arcanes predicament
 

[elZach]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb Pizzarugi:

What's a Saryn going to take: Shuriken or Roar? What's a player using meta weapons going to get more use out of: Nidus's Larva or Eclipse?

Larva 99% of the time. Meta weapons don't need damage. Grouping everyone up to be oneshot will far out-dps doubling of numbers.

If you look at it from a dps standpoint every additional enemy hit is an additive 100% damage boost, reducing TTK significantly.

[elZach]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Baron Kit:

The Brama nukor and catchmoon back the argument of roar everywhere. It's what people do. It's how it works in this game and nearly every other game.

 

Same thing with fashion frame even. Everyone claims to work hard on color combos yet mass majority are black and red.

Brama, Nukor and Catchmoons are all large projectile/AoE/Chaining weapons which don't require you to aim while still providing overkill damage.

There was a time, where Rapiers had the highest DPS, but the vast majority didn't give a care, because it was single target. You could introduce a 100% oneshot weapon on headshot into the game, if it wouldn't apply to Bosses it wouldn't even make a dent in the meta and if it would apply to bosses it would only be used there.

Brama, Nukor and Catchmoon are an argument for the playerbase largely following the opinion of influencers. Which is very understandable considering how much investment it costs to try out weapons and builds in terms of forma and time.

[selig_fay]

By the way, I don't understand why there is still no meme about Rhino with dispenser and archgun?

[(PSN)Prooomz]

12 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

By the way, I don't understand why there is still no meme about Rhino with dispenser and archgun?

Because rhino sucks now 🙂

[(PSN)Prooomz]

39 minutes ago, elZach said:

Larva 99% of the time. Meta weapons don't need damage. Grouping everyone up to be oneshot will far out-dps doubling of numbers.

If you look at it from a dps standpoint every additional enemy hit is an additive 100% damage boost, reducing TTK significantly.

Ensnare since it's larva + roar basically 🙂

[kusanagikyo]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Prooomz said:

Ensnare since it's larva + roar basically 🙂

Ensnare damage boost is khora only. Other frame can have it like larva at most.

I wish DE do something about Eclipse cause i lost at how light work at this game.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lES4BuAP9-U

[Aralicia]

Il y a 10 heures, Silvertap a dit :

I didn't see any dmg reduction abilities in the list (correct me if i'm wrong here), maybe we could have Mesa's Shatter Shield, or Gara's Splinter Storm e even Zephyr Turbulence.

Actually the only damage reduction we have here is Novas, but it is very restrictive since it needs a lot of duration and can't be recasted or refiled without a nova.

Ps. Splinter storm won't scale damege without other gara skills

Mirage's Eclipse grant up to 75% damage reduction if you stay in the shadow.

There also are a few abilities in the list that increase armor, which is in effect a form of damage reduction.
Chroma's Elemental Ward gives +150% base armor when in cold alignment
Valkyr's Warcry gives +50% base armor to all allies in range of the cry.
Wukong's Defy increase the frame's armor based on damage absorbed during the taunt, up to 1500.
Of course, both Chroma & Valkyr abilities does not work really well with frames that have a low base armor.

[(PSN)Prooomz]

18 minutes ago, kusanagikyo said:

Ensnare damage boost is khora only. Other frame can have it like larva at most.

I wish DE do something about Eclipse cause i lost at how light work at this game.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lES4BuAP9-U

Oops forgot buut I think larva needs LoS where ensnare doesn't and immobilizes liches sounds better to me.

 

Honestly wish we got mirages 2.

But that I don't see a reason to use an ability off this list that isn't war cry,roar,elemental buffs,dispensary,balling up move maybe pillage if the augment gets reworked or maybe some extremely niche circumstances require something different idk

[wizardeiges]

Will sacrificing warframes give us MR like how railjack gives us MR?

 

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

most of the played content imply tons of ennemies and killing them fast : to speed up defense mission, to farm efficiently in survival. Even disruption is a DPS check that promotes self buffs. We already have OP frames do defend objectives (Frost, Limbo, Khora for infested).

So roar is a no brainer for any frame that have 200%+ power, and larva for frame that have 200% range. maybe warcry (but tbh armor buff is not good past lvl 200+, and slowing ennemies slow the game....)

That being said anything that is QoL or Stealth or "fun" will be barely played.

Loki lull to level melee weapon on Adaro perhaps... Max range Limbo with "pull" to increase annoyance in public sorties...

[Rawbeard]

On 2020-08-12 at 8:00 PM, DawnoftheWhiteFury said:

Try reading the post.

 

 

well, that certainly is ironic. which damage buffing ability does Mesa have that would prevent Roar or Eclipse being infused?

[CopperBezel]

54 minutes ago, MonsterOfMyOwn said:

most of the played content imply tons of ennemies and killing them fast : to speed up defense mission, to farm efficiently in survival. Even disruption is a DPS check that promotes self buffs. We already have OP frames do defend objectives (Frost, Limbo, Khora for infested).

I use Temporal Blast and Ensnare for Disruption, not Whipclaw. In theory that should be slower, but I don't trail when I do publics, so....

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Prooomz said:

But that I don't see a reason to use an ability off this list that isn't war cry,roar,elemental buffs,dispensary,balling up move maybe pillage if the augment gets reworked or maybe some extremely niche circumstances require something different idk

In the right circumstances, Breach Surge produces more bonus damage than any of the buffs and provides it in combination with a relatively strong stun. 

On a frame that already has a lot of DPS, something like Ensnare or Larva that controls enemies will often be the bigger relative boost to performance.

There's also still Molt and Fire Walker as mobility options. I can't speed up a Mobile Defense by causing more damage, but I can speed it up by selectively (Molt) or generally (Fire Walker) moving faster.

I don't expect anyone to be making extensive use of Shooting Gallery, Terrify, Resonator, Tesla Nervos, or Airburst. I also don't think Fire Blast or Desiccation is ever going to be the optimal choice, even if it fills a role. There's clearly a tier list here, but we expect that - we have one for weapons, we have one for frames, we're going to have one for abilities.

And again, do keep in mind that we're used to how these abilities work on optimized frames. A lot of these abilities are admittedly not the ability anyone builds for, but that also means that there are other frames out there whose optimal builds might just be more compatible with the abilities than the donors' were. (Meanwhile, that also limits the number of frames that can make optimal use of any one ability, which is why putting Roar on everyone will never be a good idea.)

[(PSN)Claudija]

precisely what Molt are you guys on about? Saryn's simply creates a decoy for enemies to attack- not ever noticed Sary miraculously running or attacking faster with it active. A decoy, that's all.

For the poster about Limbo, I do feel for the frame. Scarlet Spear was made so cheap that Limbo and Mesa teaming up was the only efficient way to win so Limbo got nerfed. Players hate on any who like him just because lazy trolls annoyed them and of all frames poor Limby takes one for the team every single time... DE could give the guy a break for once and this is from a Khora main.

[CopperBezel]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Claudija said:

precisely what Molt are you guys on about? Saryn's simply creates a decoy for enemies to attack- not ever noticed Sary miraculously running or attacking faster with it active. A decoy, that's all.

No offense, but making a positive claim when you can easily look it up yourself doesn't make a lot of sense. It's 1.5x movement speed for 5 seconds unmodded. It does not affect attack speed. 

[(PSN)Claudija]

2 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

No offense, but making a positive claim when you can easily look it up yourself doesn't make a lot of sense. It's 1.5x movement speed for 5 seconds unmodded. It does not affect attack speed. 

Game seconds are very, very short so it really does not seem that big a boost. Were it Volt's speed boost that would be impressive. Also it feels like Protea especially has a naturally faster run speed unbuffed than most bar obviously Gauss, Khora (if Venari is present) and Volt- they would surely be better choices in this scenario than putting Molt or Firewalker on?

[CopperBezel]

Argh, double post.

[CopperBezel]

Protea's a frame that benefits from Duration and Strength - my current build has 227% and 199% respectively - both of which are applied to Molt's speed boost. Protea does indeed have a generous sprint speed of 1.2, but the Molt speed boost works like Volt's and unlike Nezha's or Wisp's in that it multiplies the total modded speed, rather than stacking onto the existing modifier, so there's no diminishing return with the existing sprint speed mods you have installed. So that's a 3x multiplier on the existed modded sprint speed for 11 seconds. 

I flatly disagree that game seconds are short. Warframe is a game where a lot can happen in three seconds - that's why shield gating is so important now, for instance. Molt, conveniently, has no casting animation or cast time.

When you see molts left randomly in corridors with no enemies around while you're attempting to catch up with a Saryn, this is why. 

[(PSN)Prooomz]

3 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

I use Temporal Blast and Ensnare for Disruption, not Whipclaw. In theory that should be slower, but I don't trail when I do publics, so....

In the right circumstances, Breach Surge produces more bonus damage than any of the buffs and provides it in combination with a relatively strong stun. 

On a frame that already has a lot of DPS, something like Ensnare or Larva that controls enemies will often be the bigger relative boost to performance.

There's also still Molt and Fire Walker as mobility options. I can't speed up a Mobile Defense by causing more damage, but I can speed it up by selectively (Molt) or generally (Fire Walker) moving faster.

I don't expect anyone to be making extensive use of Shooting Gallery, Terrify, Resonator, Tesla Nervos, or Airburst. I also don't think Fire Blast or Desiccation is ever going to be the optimal choice, even if it fills a role. There's clearly a tier list here, but we expect that - we have one for weapons, we have one for frames, we're going to have one for abilities.

And again, do keep in mind that we're used to how these abilities work on optimized frames. A lot of these abilities are admittedly not the ability anyone builds for, but that also means that there are other frames out there whose optimal builds might just be more compatible with the abilities than the donors' were. (Meanwhile, that also limits the number of frames that can make optimal use of any one ability, which is why putting Roar on everyone will never be a good idea.)

Ensnare i covered on balking up abilities breach surge is probably covered by. Niche circumstances I hear of good things of it on Garuda I guess I also forgot to mention null star some frsmes might enjoy that.

 

For disruption I just play wukong dudes die in a few seconds anyway and if you're doing hard mode where it takes a bit longer magus lockdown is fine

 

But even at base something like roar or Warcry is a great boost sports frames can have strength in the build and if they're a frame that cant or doesn't wanna build for strength then one of the other abilities mentioned will fit them.(I don't even think roar is even necessary ever except for maybe like scarlet spear ground speed running?)

[IRVoidGuru]

11 hours ago, CopperBezel said:

Well, the natural example here is still Energy Vampire. Nothing comes close to doing what it does, and it hasn't been made transferrable. If you want unlimited energy for your Saryn or Rhino or whatnot, you need a Trinity, and you still do after this change. (A Garuda or a Protea with Equilibrium has similar energy access, but only for herself.)

Im glad you bring this example for it helps advocate my point,   Proteas subsumed power is dispensary meaning that this dispensary equilibrium combination that you speak of will be available on every frame.

 As for Trinity other things have been added into the game that make her energy vampire no longer necessary for a team. Such as I can have 200 large came restores on my gear wheel.   I can have a Trinity specter on my gear wheel. And any player can own arcane energize . zenurik school of focus, so on. Things that are specific to a frame or item become more broadly available as the game progresses. Such is the nature of progress.

These changes lay the ground work for a harder steel path, or raids. Or it could simply make the game as a whole more easily accessible after MR15. 

In short the new system offers us only what we were already able to use with greater ease of access.

[(XBOX)Calliber]

...I'm just sitting here imaging Limbo with Thermal Sunder (or any damage ability). 

[CopperBezel]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Things that are specific to a frame or item become more broadly available as the game progresses. Such is the nature of progress.

These changes lay the ground work for a harder steel path, or raids. Or it could simply make the game as a whole more easily accessible after MR15. 

In short the new system offers us only what we were already able to use with greater ease of access.

Sure, but the remaining question is how much power creep we actually want, how fast. And in this case, how much of a given frame's identity is flexible vs. frames being defined characters in some sense, which is why subsumption and infusion is only one ability and non-signature, etc.

56 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Im glad you bring this example for it helps advocate my point,   Proteas subsumed power is dispensary meaning that this dispensary equilibrium combination that you speak of will be available on every frame.

Fair point, my bad. I still think there's a line somewhere that DE didn't want to cross in making donatable abilities too powerful, but I manifestly wouldn't know how to define such a set if there is one. 

(And just to be clear, because it's very difficult in these discussions to keep track of who was who, I'm not one of the folks making the case that Roar shouldn't have been allowed. I only disagreed with the claim that every possible combination should be kosher simply because they're all already possible by cooperating with another player.)