The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor einer Stunde schrieb SaxFrame:

Why you don't Defy to be on the list? Legit question, I'm curious. 

Apologies in advance if you already answered this, I jumped from page 2 to here.

I just think if Charge would land on it that Defy and Charge (with augment) would be possibly a bit too similar. Might be wrong though.

[RazerXPrime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Democratic freedoms are a myth.

I made my point regardless. Also freedom and democracy have nothing to do with eachother.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

@MrFrog9 Don't worry. I might have phrased it unclearly and probably kept it too general. Easily mistaken as more than my opinion and how I'm treating the ability. I even said plenty of other people will use it - just not me aside from maybe some specific builds. It's just weird that different predictions on what will be used seem not to be tolerable and so upsetting to some. Cool beans.

[Airaneon]

Can't stress enough how bad idea this whole subsuming thing is. Kinda killing the identity and usefulness of a lot of frames.

[(NSW)Badger]

Change is good. Change is scary. Oberon's a brute and Titania's a fairy.

 

Sorry. I couldn't help myself. 

[CopperBezel]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

Democratic freedoms are a myth.

You're definitely free to complain, which is the expected degree of freedom one would expect for opposition to a change in a video game. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Deeceem said:

I just think if Charge would land on it that Defy and Charge (with augment) would be possibly a bit too similar. Might be wrong though.

I don't think so. Many pairs of abilities on the list are already much more similar. The only thing Defy and Charge have in common is building armor. Meanwhile there are three abilities that are damage buffs and two that become one with an augment, there's Ensnare and Larva which are basically the same thing except that Larva can be placed arbitrarily and nothing is immune to Ensnare, etc. Charge would technically offer more variety than Roar, it's just so weak that it'd be unlikely to be used, putting it in the category of Banish and Airburst and others that are probably not going to contribute much if anything to the game. 

Edit: I say that. I personally would be at least as likely to use it as I would Roar, because it's a mobility move, but!

[_junguler]

54 minutes ago, RazerXPrime said:

Can we still vote for this system not to be implemented?

well we don't have a say in what happens to the game anyway, they decide something and just let us know about it.

[RazerXPrime]

4 minutes ago, _junguler said:

well we don't have a say in what happens to the game anyway, they decide something and just let us know about it.

Oh I know. I just wanted to say I think this system is gonna suck, but I didn't want to use those words.

[Pendragon1951]

@RazerXPrimeI don't believe the Warframes will lose their identity because you don't have to put the abilities on all your loadouts, you can, try it or not, on one of your loadouts and leave the others as they are thus keeping your Warframe's identity intact:)

[RazerXPrime]

Just now, Pendragon1951 said:

@RazerXPrimeI don't believe the Warframes will lose their identity because you don't have to put the abilities on all your loadouts, you can, try it or not, on one of your loadouts and leave the others as they are thus keeping your Warframe's identity intact:)

We'll have to wait and see for sure. I just got this feeling.

[Pendragon1951]

I think if anything it will make them more versatile, I'm sure you've said in the past God I wish I could trade this Warframe's ability because it sucks for that ones, now we will be able to:)

[RazerXPrime]

2 minutes ago, Pendragon1951 said:

I think if anything it will make them more versatile, I'm sure you've said in the past God I wish I could trade this Warframe's ability because it sucks for that ones, now we will be able to:)

No I've definitely not said or thought that before. I like the frames being unique. I do think it will add versatility, but I'm afraid it will also make certain frames less used. It's a shame.

[CosmicSolar]

Are we going to be able to "Banish" ourselves on other warframes?
Seems kinda minimally useful if we can only use it on others...

[(PSN)coma-edge]

If I add Resonator on my Gara, could I cast Splinter Storm on it? And possibly make it's damage scale with Mass Vitrify explosions? Maybe the update should allow for such new synergies. Or any successive patches; based on feedback. Otherwise, I guess some of the listed abilities are quite useless outside their original kit. 

[Sahansral]

Every of the bigger content creators I saw at YT that talked about the subsumed abilitites rated Roar as exceptional.

Basically: "You can  put ability A on this frame, here's a nice synergy, that could be intresting... or just slap Roar on everything."

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb CopperBezel:

I don't think so. Many pairs of abilities on the list are already much more similar. The only thing Defy and Charge have in common is building armor. Meanwhile there are three abilities that are damage buffs and two that become one with an augment, there's Ensnare and Larva which are basically the same thing except that Larva can be placed arbitrarily and nothing is immune to Ensnare, etc. Charge would technically offer more variety than Roar, it's just so weak that it'd be unlikely to be used, putting it in the category of Banish and Airburst and others that are probably not going to contribute much if anything to the game. 

Edit: I say that. I personally would be at least as likely to use it as I would Roar, because it's a mobility move, but!

That's fair. I thought it would have very similar applications (getting the armor buff) and Defy would be overall better than Charge for the simple fact that it doesn't need an augment for that application but I'm more leaning towards your view after your post. So, yeah. I'd be fine with Charge despite Defy being on the list. As you pointed out it would be probably niche.

[elZach]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb Sahansral:

Every of the bigger content creators I saw at YT that talked about the subsumed abilitites rated Roar as exceptional.

Basically: "You can  put ability A on this frame, here's a nice synergy, that could be intresting... or just slap Roar on everything."

Well let's agree, that a system like this is inherently an increase in power. Getting to switch the worst ability of a frame out, should always increase the power one way or another.

So I think a generic +DMG% ability just cuts to the chase. It's more power tada. It's super easy to understand and has no cost in terms of complexity or working just in specific builds or what have you.

However most of the time (in games, which give you the option to build out your characters/ decks/ squads) there will emerge more complex interactions between abilities which will take the top. However they are often not as easy to identify beforehand as opposed to something like roar. 

[GesuCritto]

ty

[selig_fay]

13 hours ago, MrFrog9 said:

 I do stand by my stance that some people saying they're totes not gonna use roar but imma cut you if you say it shouldn't be on the list are at the very least not being honest with themselves. If that upsets you, the most I can say is that I regret that you're upset.

Let me explain to you what is happening. There is a group of people who condemn roar because it is "strong". I'm not going to use the roar, I'm more interested in the dispenser and the ammo efficiency. But the problem here is that if DEs change the roar now, they will create a precedent that will be referred to by the "balance witnesses" and sooner or later they will take the dispenser from me.

Ok, I have Trinity 1 as an alternative (of course, it's a pity that I will be left without ammo, but still), but no one guarantees that sooner or later the "balance witnesses" will not point towards Trinity 1, saying how it breaks the game.

And I'm not kidding. This is not an abstract example. I literally saw the post that all Trinity abilities break the game, so it shouldn't be in the helmith system.

[selig_fay]

10 hours ago, RazerXPrime said:

No I've definitely not said or thought that before. I like the frames being unique. I do think it will add versatility, but I'm afraid it will also make certain frames less used. It's a shame.

Now many frames are at the bottom of the usage graph. This system will help lift them higher with abilities that could solve their problem and take them out of their niche. You know the Nyx is only good for interception. But I think there is an ability on the list that would help Nyx to be used everywhere.

And I'm not worried about uniqueness. If an ability does not work in a set of abilities, this ability does not provide any uniqueness.

[CopperBezel]

For the recipient, definitely. Like, Ballistic Battery isn't adding any unique character to Mesa just by being useless and unused. 

To me that's what's most exciting about this system, getting to replace very weak abilities on frames I like and give them that little bit more variety in play. 

I think DE has hit a very good balance with this system between having customization options, and keeping the frames' identities intact. It's restricted enough that there's some interesting problem solving in there, but open enough to be worthwhile. 

[Lady_Zerania]

For me this is a very interesting way to enhance warframe's role in a party, and it also spices up the game when you find a mind controlled bombard but no Nyx in the mission.

Also this sistem can be used by DE to give more room for new mission with new abilities as a reward.

One last thing, it would really cool to have a spectral image of the original warframe that surround our warframe when casting an infused ability, of course this can be toogle on and off

[RazerXPrime]

2 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Now many frames are at the bottom of the usage graph. This system will help lift them higher with abilities that could solve their problem and take them out of their niche. You know the Nyx is only good for interception. But I think there is an ability on the list that would help Nyx to be used everywhere.

And I'm not worried about uniqueness. If an ability does not work in a set of abilities, this ability does not provide any uniqueness.

Perhaps, I hope you are right. It's more a shame that people are gimping themselves by only playing "meta" because it is 0.1% better than something else and forget to have actual fun playing this game. I play Nyx quite often. Can she use some tweaks? Yes, but I can take her to high level content no issue whatsoever. 

But having smite taken from Oberon is kind of an issue I think. Most people that use Oberon now, only use him for Eidolon hunting. So he doens't need to be there now because you can simply put smite on Chroma and have a single frame that does it all.

[CopperBezel]

Frames that are only used for a single role in a single squad comp in a single farm are always vulnerable to losing it to changes in the meta. And that's not really an issue, or even a bad thing. If the frame is so bad they're never used anywhere else, I don't see that anyone benefits from players using that frame in that capacity.

Meanwhile, he's a frame that builds for strength, so he's another frame that could make good use of Roar and might be an alternative Rhino for some folks. 

These wildly specific niches are supposed to change with time. There isn't some value to keeping minute details of the meta static.

[mikakor]

16 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Frames that are only used for a single role in a single squad comp in a single farm are always vulnerable to losing it to changes in the meta. And that's not really an issue, or even a bad thing. If the frame is so bad they're never used anywhere else, I don't see that anyone benefits from players using that frame in that capacity.

Meanwhile, he's a frame that builds for strength, so he's another frame that could make good use of Roar and might be an alternative Rhino for some folks. 

These wildly specific niches are supposed to change with time. There isn't some value to keeping minute details of the meta static.

and anyway, if those frames people that are so weak that only one of their abilities being given to others makes them completely unrelevant, if anything, if shows a dire need of a rework. ( Nyx, Zephyr, anyone? )