So Again: Hammers Finishers and (now) Marked for Death

[Am0r.UA]

Hammers stiill need to be Nerfed
1. Finisher attack speed is as fast as Daggers
2. Finisher DMG multiplier is Illegal
3. Dagger should be a king of Backstub
4. Hammer should be a king of Ground Finisher

Marked for Death is a good Idea to make some Skills to deal AOE dmg
but
1. its should have like 50% cap to AOE dmg of target maximum HP (not overall dmg)
2. Mana cost decrease to 25
3. Base radius decrease to 5
4. Unable to deal finisher dmg in AOE

BTW i like ASH alot, but Marked for Death and Hummers is something illegal
or it was Made for Promote Reasons to nerf it later (as usual in gaming industry)

 

Marked for Death + Fatal Teleport (+200% finisher dmg)
(10 stucks of Viral with Pox or Nukor / x12 combo / invisible)

So why do we need dagger? for what purpose? if hammer is 8 times stronger and same fast as dagger :)

Dagger (Top Crit/Dmg Zaw + Good Riven)
250+ MLN dmg

 

Hammer (Fragor Prime - w/o Riven Mod)
2+ BLN dmg

w/o Marked for Death - single target finishers is just 1-6 millions 
so, i guess, this skill is mathematically broken

 

[KitMeHarder]

29 minutes ago, Am0r.UA said:

1. Finisher attack speed is as fast as Daggers
2. Finisher DMG multiplier is Illegal
3. Dagger should be a king of Backstub

• There's not much difference in the speed of all melee finishers.
• Weapons like Rapiers and Nikanas have just as much or more finisher damage. And I'm sure most finishers will work with MfD.
• There's no reason for Daggers to be the best if DE doesn't like Covert Lethality. In fact they are the worst finisher weapons.
• Hammers aren't even the best ground finishers at current. They are pretty average.

37 minutes ago, Am0r.UA said:

1. its should have like 50% cap to AOE dmg of target maximum HP (not overall dmg)
2. Mana cost decrease to 25
3. Base radius decrease to 5

It's already balanced by line-of-sight. These changes would just make it a worthless PoS.

And Ash isn't even really relevant.

[(PSN)DidelphisV]

Wanting things nerfed in a PvE game is so lame. Considering how much work helminth is, it deserves to broken as hell. I’d rather they buff other stuff before nerfing anything tbh

[MasterBurik]

11 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

• Weapons like Rapiers and Nikanas have just as much or more finisher damage. And I'm sure most finishers will work with MfD.

Rapier may have a higher overall back finisher multiplier, but it is broken down into three sets of damage (10.67x each). The hammer has the highest per hit (12x each), even though it only hits twice.

Nikana may have a higher overall front finisher multiplier, but it is broken down into two sets of damage (8x each). The hammer does a single hit with a 12x multiplier.

 

Last I checked, Marked for Death only uses the first hit. Hammers are still the top in that department.

 

IMO, the explosion radius shouldn't scale with range. Bump up the base explosion radius from 10m to 15m and remove that part of its scaling (keep cast range scaling tho). A 15m radius is plenty for 95% of what we do.

[CopperBezel]

Master's Summons, Rebuild Shields, and Empower already scale with nothing for obvious and necessary reasons. There's nothing about Marked for Death that is inherently bad to scale, and letting it keep a scaling range means it's at least interacting with the build logic of the game and requiring a good pairing with an appropriate frame. It just needs smaller numbers (and better visuals.)

9 hours ago, (PS4)DidelphisV said:

Wanting things nerfed in a PvE game is so lame. Considering how much work helminth is, it deserves to broken as hell. I’d rather they buff other stuff before nerfing anything tbh

Many things require more work and are not broken as hell. If something becomes the go-to solution for every problem or the thing you just never stop seeing out in the wild in public, that's a problem, because you've invested all of that grind just to get a less dynamic game with an easy go-to best move. It's not good for the player and it's not good for the game.

[Am0r.UA]

9 hours ago, (PS4)DidelphisV said:

Wanting things nerfed in a PvE game is so lame.

Ok i'll stay with 2 000 000 000+ AOE dmg Ash (fatal teleport) with AOE proc of Arcane Trickery (so perma inviz w/o mana cost), etc...
 

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, MasterBurik said:

Last I checked, Marked for Death only uses the first hit. Hammers are still the top in that department.

It's bugged. All damage dealt until death counts, or at least you can hit the enemy multiple times and only the killing blow counts. But the point was that almost all finishers deal plenty of damage. If the AoE kills Steel Path enemies in one hit, that's more that enough for me. 

But if you want to meme/max for SP 9999 enemies, then you're probably gonna need a hammer. 

Even with how strong it is, it isn't even the best option or worth it until the Steel Path. If you nerf it, you just make it not even worth it then. The line-of-sight and max 28m range is a good spot balance wise IMO.

[Am0r.UA]

  

13 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

It's already balanced by line-of-sight. These changes would just make it a worthless PoS.

And Ash isn't even really relevant.

added some new info to the topic

[KinderHades]

Marked for death isn't broken

line of sight makes marked for death plenty balanced. the need to put everything into range for a nuke makes it restrictive already. i used it a lot outside the simulacrum and without a large open room. marked for death is pretty mediocre. Marked for death is not worth casting if there is only a couple enemies it could affect. it is much faster to just kill them with the melee weapon. 

Hammers

hammers are better finisher weapons because they have high base damage high finisher mulitplier. Who knew nocking out someone's kneecaps and then clonking them over the head with a large dense object deals more damage than with a quick stab or slash with a dagger. hammers aren't too strong daggers just suck and they have for a very long time. the only thing daggers had was covert lethality and look where that is. 

 

simulacrum balancing makes for a bad game. a lot of setup is required for marked for death to deal 2 billion damage. it isn't necessary or required for anything.the spice of life is variety and nerfing marked for death just takes it off the table permanently.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

Il y a 2 heures, CopperBezel a dit :

Many things require more work and are not broken as hell. If something becomes the go-to solution for every problem or the thing you just never stop seeing out in the wild in public, that's a problem, because you've invested all of that grind just to get a less dynamic game with an easy go-to best move. It's not good for the player and it's not good for the game.

Amen, brother.

[Am0r.UA]

26 minutes ago, KinderHades said:

simulacrum balancing makes for a bad game. a lot of setup is required for marked for death to deal 2 billion damage. it isn't necessary or required for anything.the spice of life is variety and nerfing marked for death just takes it off the table permanently.

i have no problem on a mission with stucking x12 combo, going invisible, and doing 1 shot of pox or nukor
also, it is not a problem to meet enemys in a corridor (so large rooms like in simulacrum are not required.)

HELMINTH ASH - 2,147,483,520 DAMAGE - MARKED FOR DEATH - RED CRIT NUKE ASH!
btw, 2,147,483,520 - is a dmg cap in warframe, so Hammers even more than 8 times stronger compared to daggers

Also, how it is possible for the single target finisher of 6 mln - become an AOE of 2 BLN (with the same preconditions)? is it not Broken?

if my Fatal Teleport deals 1 mln dmg and i have 200% ability power - i should deal 1 mln AOE dmg with MFD. and not Billions

[Genoscythe]

This looks like it would work in solo, but when I run with my squad everything vaporizes way before MfD could happen and I get to do a finisher. It prolly won't work on most bosses or Eidolons, where you would actually need it. because let's be honest as long as my stropha hits 24mil I won't even bother going through a two-step frame-specific combo. There's not many things you can't instantly vaporize with normal equipment and a proper damage buff, this might have potential for steel path disruption long-runs.

[Am0r.UA]

10 minutes ago, Genoscythe said:

This looks like it would work in solo, but when I run with my squad everything vaporizes way before MfD could happen and I get to do a finisher. It prolly won't work on most bosses or Eidolons, where you would actually need it. because let's be honest as long as my stropha hits 24mil I won't even bother going through a two-step frame-specific combo. There's not many things you can't instantly vaporize with normal equipment and a proper damage buff, this might have potential for steel path disruption long-runs.

Yes

but i could say the same about old Covert Lethality. Still... it was nerfed and dagers become the weakest weapons in the game and they can not even fill any of weapon categories. No role for them.

'Ninjas play with non-ninjas weapons' - new promo slogan

[Genoscythe]

il y a 1 minute, Am0r.UA a dit :

Yes

but i could say the same about old Covert Lethality. Still... it was nerfed and dagers become the weakest weapons in the game and they can not even fill any of weapons categories. No role for them.

'Ninjas play with non-ninjas weapons'

Daggers suck and it's a shame and I'd like to see them be better too.

[Am0r.UA]

On 2020-09-01 at 12:58 AM, Genoscythe said:

Daggers suck and it's a shame and I'd like to see them be better too.

At least DE should change the animation of the dagger finisher to deal 1 quick hit (multiplier x4, not 2 hits x2).
with such change daggers, as the fastest weapon for finishers in the game, will be more interesting to use
Also, x24 multiplier of hummers should be changed to x16, speed of finisher animation - lowered
x32 for Rapiers ----> x16 but with a bit farster animation compared to Hummers

[Monolake]

You know that mobs never even scale to this much hp? its all irrelevant.

 

[Buttaface]

Didn't read whole thread. Finisher dmg should never be aoe, only single target. Problem solved. Stop trying to take a new obviously broken skill and try to use it to nerf a whole weapon class that doesn't need any nerfing whatsoever.

See now that wasn't so hard.

 

[Lone_Dude]

So drunk on hype that his nerf muscle started spazzin out. Get him some milk.

[KlaussKlauss]

Another Simulacrum Warrior post. 

Here we go again.

Marked for Death is only broken in some special cases of odd interactions. Revenant can kill with it but it can kill more easily with Larva (Larva for some reason acts like Marked for Death if it has an enthraled mob inside it). Besides this it is just a band-aid for one or two frames maximum. 

I hope DE just fixes broken interactions and doesn't nerf Marked for Death because it is not OP at all in regular game play. Just ignore click-bait youtubers that say it is OP because they don't film how they died each 10 minutes with that Ash build or how you literally can't hit a mob around the corner. With high Range you are far from clearing even a medium room. And by the way, "line of sight" is liniar it seems because I hit a target with Marked for Death and only mobs at exact same level with me died, there was one that was on a ramp very slightly elevated (could't see only his feet on the ground, but saw the rest of him because he was right besides me) - yep, he didn't die.   

So Marked for Death isn't practical at all but it helps frames that fell off because many others can do all their jobs better. 

As for the Dagger vs Hammer debate, I don't care. But, seeing people obsess about stupid worthless things like these is really annoying. Well everyone is entitled to their opinion (even though stupid opinions bring unnecessary nerfs in a PvE power fantasy game of grind for months just to get grief after). 

So my opinion now is that three-handed Nikanas should have highest Finisher damage. Who's with me?

[KlaussKlauss]

On 2020-09-01 at 12:47 AM, Genoscythe said:

This looks like it would work in solo, but when I run with my squad everything vaporizes way before MfD could happen and I get to do a finisher. It prolly won't work on most bosses or Eidolons, where you would actually need it. because let's be honest as long as my stropha hits 24mil I won't even bother going through a two-step frame-specific combo. There's not many things you can't instantly vaporize with normal equipment and a proper damage buff, this might have potential for steel path disruption long-runs.

What you said is 100% true, except the part about disruptions. Finishers don't work on Demolists, Fatal Teleport does 0 dmg to them (just teleports). Finishers don't work even on a lot of regular mobs (e.g. Ospreys). Marked for Death just makes Ash a little less worthless, and that's it.  

[Genoscythe]

Il y a 2 heures, KlaussKlauss a dit :

What you said is 100% true, except the part about disruptions. Finishers don't work on Demolists, Fatal Teleport does 0 dmg to them (just teleports). Finishers don't work even on a lot of regular mobs (e.g. Ospreys). Marked for Death just makes Ash a little less worthless, and that's it.  

You don't use the finisher on the demolyst, you mark an enemy close to it and finish that enemy.

[Tiltskillet]

5 hours ago, KlaussKlauss said:

Finishers don't work on Demolists

Just to quibble a little, Dizzying Rounds does open up many of them to finishers.   Playing around a little in the simulacrum, Fatal Teleport (without using Dizzying Rounds) does seem to work on the non-robotic ones, But I don't really play Ash and wouldn't just assume that what works in the simulacrum works in a real disruption.

[ShortCat]

On 2020-09-05 at 6:02 PM, KlaussKlauss said:

Another Simulacrum Warrior post. 

Here are some of mine "Simulacrum" tests.

Spoiler

I especially like the "0 damage taken" line there. One of the more effortless runs I ever had.

Or here a Sortie 3 MD from a few days ago, where I outdpsed Mesa.

Spoiler

 

M4D is a total overkill for something like Star Chart, yet it is not like we lack the ability to nuke there. Nobody cares what is OP on Earth. However, if we look at the later content or what could come in future, M4D+finisher combo is obviously broken.

[KlaussKlauss]

4 hours ago, ShortCat said:

Here are some of mine "Simulacrum" tests.

  Reveal hidden contents

I especially like the "0 damage taken" line there. One of the more effortless runs I ever had.

Or here a Sortie 3 MD from a few days ago, where I outdpsed Mesa.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

M4D is a total overkill for something like Star Chart, yet it is not like we lack the ability to nuke there. Nobody cares what is OP on Earth. However, if we look at the later content or what could come in future, M4D+finisher combo is obviously broken.

All your stuff is fine and dandy, but couldn't you have done it easy without M4D?

I don't know what outdps means to you. If you say you killed a larger number I call BS unless the Mesa was apathetic/bored/not with gear/low level/low skill, if you saying that you had % dmg at table, then yes ofc. I can outdps Saryn and Mesa with Ash fatal teleport build without M4D because it does tens of millions damage and that table at end of mission is broken. Had some missions with 90% dmg, 1 kill vs Saryn 300 kills 5% dmg. Can't figure out how that table works lmao. I now see that you have more kills, props to you. Was the Mesa in on your little contest or just semi-afk bored of Sortie level mobs? If you go on Exterminate mission with a semi-decent Mesa informed about the contents you will eat your heart out with M4D to try and keep up to Peacemaker, I can guarantee that.

I lack the stamina to be serious about these "tests". I don't usually have much time to play, especially boring Sorties, so I usually level items inside Sorties. Stupid me, not expecting professional testers like you to go taking screenshots of our contest of beating level 60 mobs :)))))) 

Any way, your "tests" prove you can survive in a longer mission, which I assume you can without M4D. You're worrying for what is next to come? Look at what already came, all future content is exactly existing content (+ additional content island in which your warframe abilities don't work): endless grind fest of low level missions. Do you actually want people to think that you can play more efficiently in long Steel Path endurance with Ash M4D then with vanilla Octavia? We had no problems with Steel Path endurance before M4D and won't ever have with or without it. 

What I am saying is that it isn't more broken than many other abilities in game. There are abilities and melee that scale into level9999 and high armor.

Any way, it is actually funny that if they nerf M4D, HoD grind becomes even more useless (fishing, mining, searching glitched animals inside rocks, 1000 runs of stupid vaults for fake drop table of Trashcan mods). Helminth was super overhyped. There are less than 10 good warframe subsumable abilities (6 were nerfed) that are good for something, although unnecessary for doing actual content. All of Helminth is overkill, and M4D is just band-aid for poor un-reworked Ash. If you want to kill him, do it, we throw him in the pile with Limbo and others that could be good and fun but were f*cked just because they could have been an embodiment of a special power. Not Octavia tier, not Khora tier, probably not even Mesa tier for majority of content, but with some gimmick that stood out.      

[Tesseract7777]

On 2020-08-31 at 2:20 AM, Am0r.UA said:

Hammers stiill need to be Nerfed
1. Finisher attack speed is as fast as Daggers
2. Finisher DMG multiplier is Illegal
3. Dagger should be a king of Backstub
4. Hammer should be a king of Ground Finisher

Marked for Death is a good Idea to make some Skills to deal AOE dmg
but
1. its should have like 50% cap to AOE dmg of target maximum HP (not overall dmg)
2. Mana cost decrease to 25
3. Base radius decrease to 5
4. Unable to deal finisher dmg in AOE

BTW i like ASH alot, but Marked for Death and Hummers is something illegal
or it was Made for Promote Reasons to nerf it later (as usual in gaming industry)
 

 

Illegal? You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. 

Anyways, agree on the hammers, 100% disagree on Marked for Death.

With all respect, if you think it needs any nerfs, you don't understand game balance. You need to stop playing in the simulacrum and try in game, it's not that amazing. 

You Simulacrum warriors keep claiming it is OP. 

It is NOT.