I play Warframe for this reason...

[xombob89]

8 hours ago, quxier said:

Some people enjoy them (I've read about fishing suggestion). I, like I said, enjoyed that leisure time. However they are designed to stop you from building X.

Some, yes, but clear majority literally hates it. Which is why it should always stay optional content, an alternative you can do but if you prefer the classic warframe gameplay you should have the option to get the resources that way. Luckilly, iso vaults have fishing and mining resources but not animals. 

[quxier]

2 hours ago, xombob89 said:

Some, yes, but clear majority literally hates it. Which is why it should always stay optional content, an alternative you can do but if you prefer the classic warframe gameplay you should have the option to get the resources that way. Luckilly, iso vaults have fishing and mining resources but not animals. 

Of course, there should be many ways to do it. Sadly we either have fishing/mining/something or RNG based thing. So we don't have options (unless you do a lot of contents and just break everything in open world or kill things like Tusk tumpers)

[Scar.brother.help.me]

I love how warframe looks, feels and sounds. What I hate is a very very very very very poor job at balancing. It's like DE has a lot of talented people but just not in that area. Or may be none of their team wants to do it ever, may be they hate this part of their job. Or maybe they haven't played their own game for a very long time, I don't know. But absolute biggest chunk of equipment is mr fodders, and DE does almost nothing about it. They even still release new weapons that are dead born mr fodders at launch! 

 

And I also prefer to play warframes, not other crap. If archwings, railjack, necramechs, operators were removed and k-drives got some movement boosts (warping, acceleration, whatever gives fast travel in open worlds) - I wouldn't even feel a difference. All I ever used from operators are zenurik for energy and naramon for melee combo. 

 

 

[Velitria]

I will clarify now why the beginning of it seems so opposite of where it ends from an argument perspective. I wanted this post to help the devs get a community perspective, which explains why I seemed so two-sided in the post. It was two arguments, for and against, merged to sound like one.

I went and listed content that takes away from the core game because they are alternative content to the core. I didn't explicitly say any of it was bad (excluding archwing) for what it was. I even later said I enjoyed all the content in the game. The point was that majority of the content in the game is about warframes and that there needs to be a large comparable diversity that goes into developing all various subtypes in a game. Archwing is a perfect example of this. We got hildryn's larkspur, and the kuva ayanga as the only archwing content in forever. Yes, nechamechs added more, only because they were heavy weapons to fit alongside and not on the basis of adding to Archwing, but I'll get to that later. 

Each major update in quite a while has followed the pattern of: Add more content to core warframes through new frame, weapons, primes. Add new content of a new category with more to farm from scratch because veterans have many resources piled up (Should you really care? Apply the game for the vast majority of mr 1-13 that don't). Add new nice features. Add new playable content that requires a new system that require use of core game or new resources for new subcategory for another farm to create farmception to multiple layers (every open world, especially the pain of cetus when eidolons required operators on top of everything else, and revamped focus).

While having subcategoies is good and all for diversity/variety, the problems lies in things being added and never being given any fun attached to them outside of "useful". What do I mean by this? Take operators for instance... you have to do the content to get better amp, you have to get focus, all to do a specific content that only it can do. There is a pinnacal/endgame to operators called eidolons and it's done... an island. Later they added more capability for operators to aid the core game with warframes in missions and that was what saved it. However, it still lacks the capability for operators to mod their amps (this is the key, customizability). Every single area of the game could benefit from mod-ability (including warframe and archwing abilities because that is where the struggle of what to set damage at has come in so many times in the past for how to balance a frame. Do you want it to oneshot every under level 80? Or do you want it to suck above level 30? Set damage values always result in a situation called "enemy health of 1" aka "the oneshot problem"). Once again, every single area of the game could benefit from mod-ability to mirror what makes the core game good.

The core game is the main attraction, it should be the most developed, but the issues come when all the islands are not equally developed to complement each other and the core. Adding new islands disconnects from the others unless the others are also given some attention that attaches them in relevance all equally, and this task becomes all the harder to achieve the more islands are added. DE is currently feeling the negative effects of more content islands without attaching them to the others which makes them feel like they are missing things, regardless of how good they might be made. Expectations prefer diversity and usefulness of all content without being too much in requirements of a particular area as that takes away from the game as a whole. Open worlds have this problem in making the whole game feel hollow when one gets tired of doing the open world. Railjack actually had less of this hollowing effect on the game as a whole because there was less requirements and content in Railjack (less actually made the negativity less and they would just go back to playing the core game). At the same time, players also complained that Railjack needed more diversity (which it does), but the key to content islands being made to flow adequately with the game as a whole is through active development of all areas of the game with not particular single focus because that causes areas that need work to be overlooked. My favorite recent update was the Deadlock Protocol because it redid the corpus ship tileset (improved the core game) and it was a story quest. DE's problem has been in there being too much focus on completely separated new content to do and finish. They can't just keep releasing open world's new sections like Railjack and operators, all in succession since The Plains of Eidolon btw. They can't because it's a content island mentality for the game as a whole (Path of Exile can do this because resetting stats is an integral part of the game, if Warframe did that, it would lose the majority of it's playerbase and is an example of DE taking ideas from popular games that wouldn't work with theirs), there needs to be large content in between that polishes, fixes, updates, improves, and adds to all parts of the gameand links it all together better. Then and only then would a Large island of content feel like something new instead of "oh, more stuff to grind for no reason since I have the Kuva Nukor, Bramma, (any crit sniper because eidolons are immune to status which is stupid) (any melee) that trivializes the game into not requiring anything from the new update except that it's mastery". Linking all content together feels like a quality update and can add "small island" links but shouldn't be the total focus of the updates. There should always be a large "quality and improvement of the game as a whole" update before every new island of content because that is what secures the "previous islands" in solidarity with the game better.

Side note: Melee being able to oneshot 10 enemies in a single swing is also an issue because the damage falloff seems to only apply once. A melee with a followthrough of 0.6, the way I understood it, means that damage reduces by 40% per enemy hit in a single swing... 1,000,000 reduced to 600,000 to 360,000 to 216,000 to 129,600 to 77,760 to 46,656 to 27,993 to 16,796 to 10,077 to 6,047. Yet from actually playing the game, you just end up doing the 600k to them all except the first. Or they could go about it more realistically and make it so that only a kill (or lift status) allows a blade to pass through an enemy (stopping the animation on them if they survive) and there would only be the capability to hit a single enemy that survives. I would much prefer that realism since guns just suck in comparison to melee.

[DrBorris]

On 2020-11-19 at 3:30 PM, Velitria said:

I don't play Railjack.

I do feel like this is a bit off topic, but the fact that you see Railjack as its own thing points to the failure of Railjack more than a criticism of its mechanics. Railjack wasn't supposed to be a mode, it was supposed to be a platform to deliver the Warframe gameplay you play for. The fact that the majority of Railjack combat is done with the Railjack and not on the Railjack (or on an objective) is the greatest failure of the mode. The focus on the piloting/gunner/engineering experiences as the main draw of Railjack, rather than a slight flavor to complement the core Warframe gameplay, is the most egregious design error of Railjack that hasn't been pointed out nearly enough (and is why Railjack Part 2 made this problem worse).

 

As for other things. Operators, to me, are a core part of my 'Warframe' combat loop. I use them as a universal fifth ability, the worst part of the Grendel missions for me was not being able to go into Operator as a tool.

Archwings in my opinion have the potential to be directly analogous to the core Warframe combat but with a third axis of movement. Enemy design and the combat arenas you find yourself in make most of the similarities between the core Archwing/Warframe combat fall apart but the potential is there.

Necramechs... I'll give you that. I'm personally in favor of having a "tank" vehicle that can be spawned at will, but that does inherently take you out of the core combat loop.

K-Drives I think fail due to not filling a purpose. A tool to be used to go from A to B extra fast is something I think that doesn't interfere at all with the core combat. If we never got Archwings in the open worlds then I believe the community reception to K-Drives would be very different.

[(PSN)thegarada]

10 hours ago, DrBorris said:

I do feel like this is a bit off topic, but the fact that you see Railjack as its own thing points to the failure of Railjack more than a criticism of its mechanics. Railjack wasn't supposed to be a mode, it was supposed to be a platform to deliver the Warframe gameplay you play for. The fact that the majority of Railjack combat is done with the Railjack and not on the Railjack (or on an objective) is the greatest failure of the mode. The focus on the piloting/gunner/engineering experiences as the main draw of Railjack, rather than a slight flavor to complement the core Warframe gameplay, is the most egregious design error of Railjack that hasn't been pointed out nearly enough (and is why Railjack Part 2 made this problem worse).

 

As for other things. Operators, to me, are a core part of my 'Warframe' combat loop. I use them as a universal fifth ability, the worst part of the Grendel missions for me was not being able to go into Operator as a tool.

Archwings in my opinion have the potential to be directly analogous to the core Warframe combat but with a third axis of movement. Enemy design and the combat arenas you find yourself in make most of the similarities between the core Archwing/Warframe combat fall apart but the potential is there.

Necramechs... I'll give you that. I'm personally in favor of having a "tank" vehicle that can be spawned at will, but that does inherently take you out of the core combat loop.

K-Drives I think fail due to not filling a purpose. A tool to be used to go from A to B extra fast is something I think that doesn't interfere at all with the core combat. If we never got Archwings in the open worlds then I believe the community reception to K-Drives would be very different.

I want to emphasize regarding the archwing. My impression when I saw RJ footage, way back, is that the game play is warframes and archwing is same as it is in open worlds, a transportation device. Even when DE showed RJ pre launch, most of it was Rebecca using Ivara to board enemy ships. That is fun. Archwing and RJ combat, are not, at all.

See, if you can play RJ both ways, that would be nice. It is still core gameplay with other options, if you like them. But as it currently stands it is a completely different game, with completely different combat and mechanics. One, which is clearly inferior to the core gameplay of warframe. Again, if it is optional, so be it. But when you start to see RJ resources required for building core stuff (like protea), something went wrong. And it being part of liches is an absolute no, unless it is optional.

And DE does this all the time. They develop something different than core gameplay, then force it down the players throat, so they must engage with it. Why? If the content is good, should not it stand on its own? How many people would have bothered with conservation if was not required for CD reputation and heleminth? 

Forcing players to engage with inferior content, does not make it good. And the fact that DE spent resources making it, does not mean the players want to play it. This is sunk fallacy at its worst.

[Soy77]

Funny because I'm one of the people who likes minigames on rpgs.

If a minigame or unique side quests only reuse the main-game's mechanics, I'll call them lazy minigames.

I love games that allows me to do many different things instead of just one thing. it all started a long time ago with shenmue. But now skyrim, zelda breath of the wild. Even gta was my favorite game at one point.

Imagine my disappointment when in veil proxima i have to get off the ship i have built and customize with so much efforts to fight sentients as warframes. Why the heck did i put some much blood sweat and tears pimpin my ship if I'm just gonna play the same old warframe?!?! Might as well ditch the whole ship thing and just put veil proxima as regular mission nodes.

This shows that none of us speaks for "everyone". Different people likes different stuff.

[Xepthrichros]

DE: Can't hear you over the other people that hate warframes and want call of duty in space instead. Better nerf Khora and other abilities once more! And while we are at it, maybe we will consider a global Energy Leech status effect, or global nullifier. 

[(PSN)thegarada]

5 hours ago, Soy77 said:

Funny because I'm one of the people who likes minigames on rpgs.

If a minigame or unique side quests only reuse the main-game's mechanics, I'll call them lazy minigames.

I love games that allows me to do many different things instead of just one thing. it all started a long time ago with shenmue. But now skyrim, zelda breath of the wild. Even gta was my favorite game at one point.

Imagine my disappointment when in veil proxima i have to get off the ship i have built and customize with so much efforts to fight sentients as warframes. Why the heck did i put some much blood sweat and tears pimpin my ship if I'm just gonna play the same old warframe?!?! Might as well ditch the whole ship thing and just put veil proxima as regular mission nodes.

This shows that none of us speaks for "everyone". Different people likes different stuff.

There is no issue with that, as long as it is no mandatory. You want to use your RJ, cool. You want to use your warframe, also works. The issue happens when there are no options. If I must play mini games to access core new content, I will stop playing the game. If the new liches can be done both in RJ and outside of RJ, that is fine, in fact, preferable. People can play things how they like. If it must be done in RJ, is the issue. And this seems to be the direction the game is going in. Forcing mini games as gating for core content. 

[Pizzarugi]

On 2020-11-19 at 1:30 PM, Velitria said:

Nechamechs are... DE soon to force you into using them for content that will require them, and when available in every normal mission, will most likely be made stronger and irrelevant to ever use Warframes if they are available.

Given the vast number of frames, 2 necramechs are hardly going to be able to compete with all of them. Revenant, for example, has a much more superior defense skill unlike the Voidrig. These slow moving mechs would need to be even more nuke than Saryn/Mesa/Ember/Volt/Equinox before they make frames irrelevant.

[Pizzarugi]

8 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Can't hear you over the other people that hate warframes and want call of duty in space instead. Better nerf Khora and other abilities once more! And while we are at it, maybe we will consider a global Energy Leech status effect, or global nullifier. 

Hot take: We're more likely to see a global nullifier or energy leech effect if we don't nerf Khora and stop pumping out/buffing frames that have a "press one button to win" gimmick.

If the devs aren't allowed to balance and keep us from getting bored and burnt out by making the game no longer challenging, they'll find other ways to do it which will end up being things nobody likes. We already have Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus, Noxes, Energy Leech Eximus, and the new Sentient enemies with diminishing returns on frame powers. Would you like to have some more?

[quxier]

52 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

If the devs aren't allowed to balance and keep us from getting bored and burnt out by making the game no longer challenging, they'll find other ways to do it which will end up being things nobody likes. We already have Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus, Noxes, Energy Leech Eximus, and the new Sentient enemies with diminishing returns on frame powers. Would you like to have some more?

Not every enemy  you listed is bad, in my opinion. It depends how visible and if it's on/off "field". For example Nullies just disable your abilities. That's bad. However Combas/Scrambus yield before activating their power "I'm gonna mess your abilities, be prepared!". And it's easier to avoid. It's good.

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, quxier said:

Not every enemy  you listed is bad, in my opinion. It depends how visible and if it's on/off "field". For example Nullies just disable your abilities. That's bad. However Combas/Scrambus yield before activating their power "I'm gonna mess your abilities, be prepared!". And it's easier to avoid. It's good.

They are not easier to avoid. They have a field that grows larger than even a Nullifier can reach. The only thing that makes them more tolerable is that unlike the Nullifier, they only disable one ability unless there's a large number of them. They become aggravating when fighting Profit-Taker, for example.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

They are not easier to avoid. They have a field that grows larger than even a Nullifier can reach. The only thing that makes them more tolerable is that unlike the Nullifier, they only disable one ability unless there's a large number of them. They become aggravating when fighting Profit-Taker, for example.

I haven't played profit taker but in normal missions they are not many. And you can clearly see them charging. And if you don't see it you will see slow "field" growing. So you have enough time to kill them. Nullies on other hand may appears from nowhere and destroy all things you have.
It's like comanders. You can hear "the sound" before they teleport you. So it's easy to avoid.

[Soy77]

22 hours ago, (PSN)thegarada said:

There is no issue with that, as long as it is no mandatory. You want to use your RJ, cool. You want to use your warframe, also works. The issue happens when there are no options. If I must play mini games to access core new content, I will stop playing the game. If the new liches can be done both in RJ and outside of RJ, that is fine, in fact, preferable. People can play things how they like. If it must be done in RJ, is the issue. And this seems to be the direction the game is going in. Forcing mini games as gating for core content. 

you sir are absolutely on point.

most other games treat these kind of modes as "side activities". so you can dump hundreds of hours into these kind of activities should you like them. or just ignore them and continue on with the main missions if you don't.

i cannot support DE's decisions to lock main missions behind different game modes that some people might not like. but i guess we can understand why they do it, online or "game as services" model demands the devs to keep updating this game so they can keep players entertained. they're forced to treat every updates as "main missions".
i mean, if one day they decided to put some minicard game inside warframe -gwent or triple triad kind of games, it'll probably main mission. "tenno, anyo is bored with index. now he's obsessed with prex card yugioh battles. you must beat him on card games in order to save the universe"

i guess were just playing the wrong game.

[xombob89]

On 2020-11-30 at 5:39 PM, (PSN)thegarada said:

There is no issue with that, as long as it is no mandatory. You want to use your RJ, cool. You want to use your warframe, also works. The issue happens when there are no options. If I must play mini games to access core new content, I will stop playing the game. If the new liches can be done both in RJ and outside of RJ, that is fine, in fact, preferable. People can play things how they like. If it must be done in RJ, is the issue. And this seems to be the direction the game is going in. Forcing mini games as gating for core content. 

Yep, I wish most things in the game had optional ways of obtaining them. Would make the game so much more rewarding and less grindy and repetitive. I mean for example, what if you could get eidolon specific arcanes somewhere else too? Not somewhere easier or faster, but different. Give us options so people wont just burn themselves out on one thing. 

Of course this might mean one gamemode gets favoured over another, but maybe this just gives valuable info into what kind of things players want and like? And you could always consider rotating rewards, so one week these things drop from eidolons but another week somewhere else. 

Ps. I do hope Im not being forced into railjack with liches... Its one of my fav modes atm even though it could use A LOT of improvement. 

[Xepthrichros]

 

On 2020-12-01 at 5:01 AM, Pizzarugi said:

Hot take: We're more likely to see a global nullifier or energy leech effect if we don't nerf Khora and stop pumping out/buffing frames that have a "press one button to win" gimmick.

If the devs aren't allowed to balance and keep us from getting bored and burnt out by making the game no longer challenging, they'll find other ways to do it which will end up being things nobody likes. We already have Nullifiers, Comba/Scrambus, Noxes, Energy Leech Eximus, and the new Sentient enemies with diminishing returns on frame powers. Would you like to have some more?

Alternately, all these irritants can be placed in certain map types and modes, so players that want their call of duty simulator can go there.

And the rest of us who enjoy warframe can enjoy it in peace, with no poorly-conceived nerfs. 

 

[Velitria]

On 2020-11-19 at 3:30 PM, Velitria said:

Nechamechs are... DE soon to force you into using them for content that will require them, and when available in every normal mission, will most likely be made stronger and irrelevant to ever use Warframes if they are available.

 

I can legitimately smell the requirement of nechamechs to do damage in future content as yet another barrier and taking away from warframe. 

Orphix Venom, wow shocker... almost like I knew this would happen because I can predict how the devs think more reliably than their capacity to organize and decide on future content. This was the first operation in all of warframe I didn't participate in. I am likewise frustrated with DE not understanding how they are killing their own game regardless of how many times the community informs them of poor decisions. My "opinion" isn't just an opinion, I weigh facts, data, and experience as a developer (primarily from common sense) what is good or bad for the game in the future. "Good now" rarely exists as a "Good later" in the realm of decisions and "Bad now" even less commonly exists as "Good later".

I will provide an example... Pablo invented the nullifier. It was seen as an addition that people very much disliked but appreciated subconsciously, "Bad now" and "Good later". What the devs and people want are not what should happen. Important note that "certain" devs are problems for the game... *coughing profusely* kuva nukor has chaining *cough* STOP IT. That is an example of "Good now" and "Bad later". The community is not going to complain because it is good but it is directly damaging every other content in the game by causing a power increases not matched in every other content in the game (and a lot of work) so it without fail gets ignored... remember the tonkor? Remember the tonkor was the best? Is it the best now, or even remotely close? Commonly called powercreep and the essence of my reasoning for despising nechramechs. The mausolon is another issue... I will allow the devs to use their brains for the reason why. I quit the game because of the constant powercreep. Make enemies 10x stronger and it won't change my mind about this game in the can. The only reason I hold onto the possibility of balance some day coming back is because AoE falloff exists. If the game is ever going to hope of being balanced, the AoE falloff should drop to 1% on every single AoE weapon and remove all the variability that makes no sense realistically or in balance. Why do I even bother though if they repeatedly don't listen and continue to kill the game. Yeah no, I'm done, I'm only posting this now so the community will see the irony in it and be amused. The devs clearly don't have vision. It's like watching an old person drive... they tell you that just because they haven't had an accident and drive just fine for an amount of years, means they can't have one... as they slowly ignore a stop sign and ease into the road in front of someone, that slams on their brakes because they have a brain to not hit the old, decrepit, naive, sack of idiocy (yes, this is a true story). They are alive, but... should I bother telling them how to drive? Will they listen or take anything I say seriously? Sure seems like they are content with living in the metal error that if they haven't had an accident yet that they are doing things just fine.