Xaku + Helminth - Should He Be Allowed to Freeze Other Abilities?

[(PSN)f_r_e_e_b_i_e_bg]

First question first.

Is that intercation intended to work like that? Currently he can't freeze other Helminth allowed abilities with his 4. Yes I know that description states Xaku abilities. I can twist/rephrase the question and say that every Helminth ability we infuse on Xaku become Xaku ability, no? It doesn't work like that :P?

 

I am asking this question because a couple of days ago I started playing with him and decided I want to put something that on theory (if freeze worked) can function in similar fashion towards his 1st and 2nd. Meaning you cast em and they stick with ya when moving around. Freezing with 4 - stops their cd timers. You can re-cast 4 and within the animation frame time you usually lose a bit of seconds on the cd's of 1 or 2 if active.

The one I stopped on was Shooting Gallery - because it's defensive and with my glass cannon build it would've helped (other I thought might be possible were Chromas aura, but I am only a few months into the game so knowledge is limited).

You can imagine I was a bit disappointed when I found out the 4th doesn't freeze Shooting Gallery.

 

So in the light of this discovery (of mine). I also want to pose the question if it's ok to work like that?

Would it be OP-OP-OP-OP if he could freeze other Helminth allowed ablities - again limited knowledge so can't exactly envision and know how much of benefit that would be?

Question is both for devs and the players. Xaku's unique shtick with 4 is interesting and if it makes for more intruiging/diverse builds, why not?

 

Thanks

[Dauggie]

its already answered on stream.. it will not freeze other abilities

[(PSN)f_r_e_e_b_i_e_bg]

Oh I see, welp. I guess the discussion is over. Fun times :(. Thanks.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Yes

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

8 minutes ago, Dauggie said:

its already answered on stream.. it will not freeze other abilities

Just because it currently doesn’t doesn’t mean it shouldn’t.

[Colyeses]

I looked through the list of abilities myself, having had a similar idea, and I couldn't really find any ability that would decimate the game if allowed to benefit from Vast Untime's duration extension. I think it would be perfectly acceptable. There's not really that many abilities that leverage great power by collapsing the duration, outside of -maybe- Energized Munitions, which could be a lot of fun to use with Vast Untime.

I think the primary reason Helminth abilities don't get paused by Vast Untime is technical. I suspect that Vast Untime doesn't actually pause the other abilities, the other abilities pause themselves when they detect that Vast Untime is running. Which means that, in order to get it to work on Helminth abilities, all of those Helminth abilities would have to have that functionality patched in. Probably possible, but a lot of work, and 9/10 times, it won't be worth it.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, Colyeses said:

I think the primary reason Helminth abilities don't get paused by Vast Untime is technical. I suspect that Vast Untime doesn't actually pause the other abilities, the other abilities pause themselves when they detect that Vast Untime is running. Which means that, in order to get it to work on Helminth abilities, all of those Helminth abilities would have to have that functionality patched in. Probably possible, but a lot of work, and 9/10 times, it won't be worth it.

It could be like every ability have a timer. You can pause or turn it off. Now the Vast untime could just pause on entering the VU and un-pausing on exit of the VU...
... but you never know what's inside.

 

3 hours ago, Colyeses said:

I looked through the list of abilities myself, having had a similar idea, and I couldn't really find any ability that would decimate the game if allowed to benefit from Vast Untime's duration extension. I think it would be perfectly acceptable. There's not really that many abilities that leverage great power by collapsing the duration, outside of -maybe- Energized Munitions, which could be a lot of fun to use with Vast Untime.

I think some abilities might be broken or just "too easy to use".

Protea's dispensary with 1 minute duration? There is no need for arcanes or special mods anymore. Ivara's cloak could hide things for a long time.
 

I have made a suggestion allowing it with some limits:

2nd suggestion explain how it could be balanced.
ps. and it's lore friendly

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

they*

[(PSN)f_r_e_e_b_i_e_bg]

21 hours ago, Colyeses said:

I looked through the list of abilities myself, having had a similar idea, and I couldn't really find any ability that would decimate the game if allowed to benefit from Vast Untime's duration extension. I think it would be perfectly acceptable. There's not really that many abilities that leverage great power by collapsing the duration, outside of -maybe- Energized Munitions, which could be a lot of fun to use with Vast Untime.

I think the primary reason Helminth abilities don't get paused by Vast Untime is technical. I suspect that Vast Untime doesn't actually pause the other abilities, the other abilities pause themselves when they detect that Vast Untime is running. Which means that, in order to get it to work on Helminth abilities, all of those Helminth abilities would have to have that functionality patched in. Probably possible, but a lot of work, and 9/10 times, it won't be worth it.

Good to hear. There is also other considerations - which future warframe abilities will be added. I suspect DE have planned at least year + in terms of what's to come on the frame front, so there is that. Plus you'll never know what other concept might sneak in and suddenly freezing ability will be too op op. Then again, I am gald there are other folks that consider freezing other helminth abilities ok.

As for the technicalities we can only guess. It might be hard or not so hard to implement. I lean more on the it won't be that hard, it was just a design/balance call/choice.

[Leqesai]

On 2020-11-25 at 10:23 AM, (PSN)f_r_e_e_b_i_e_bg said:

Would it be OP-OP-OP-OP if he could freeze other Helminth allowed ablities - again limited knowledge so can't exactly envision and know how much of benefit that would be?

Yes. Yes it would.

[Colyeses]

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

Yes. Yes it would.

Can you name an example?

[Leqesai]

59 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Can you name an example?

Literally every duration-based ability would be overpowered if xaku could freeze the timers. Are you being cereal right now?

[Colyeses]

8 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Literally every duration-based ability would be overpowered if xaku could freeze the timers. Are you being cereal right now?

Again, can you name an example? 

Remember that Protea heaps a free +100% power strength on everything too, and that didn't break anything. 

Instead of just reiterating that you are correct, demonstrate. Which Helminth ability would be overpowered if Xaku could extend its duration?

[DrivaMain]

24 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

Instead of just reiterating that you are correct, demonstrate. Which Helminth ability would be overpowered if Xaku could extend its duration?

1. Dispensary : More uptime
2. Roar : More Uptime
3. Eclipse : More Uptime
4. Spectrorage : The augment lets you create energy fountains. Extending the duration may make it create even more ridiculous amount of orbs
5. Nourish Strike : Again more up time.
6. Ensnare.

 

[Colyeses]

11 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

1. Dispensary : More uptime
2. Roar : More Uptime
3. Eclipse : More Uptime
4. Spectrorage : The augment lets you create energy fountains. Extending the duration may make it create even more ridiculous amount of orbs
5. Nourish Strike : Again more up time.
6. Ensnare.

 

If Dispensary isn't overpowered on Protea, where it naturally has an extended uptime, it wouldn't be on Xaku. Dispensary's power doesn't really scale with duration, and it's never been particularly powerful, just extremely broadly applicable.

Roar can just be recast as well. Helminth version is also much weaker.

Eclipse can just be recast.

Spectrorage can be recast but is also bound by HP, as the mirrors can shatter. Plus, it requires an extra mod slot to become a problem.

Ensnare might actually slightly decrease in value because it cannot be cast on a snared target, meaning it can be used less.

Almost all of this is just an improvement to the energy upkeep of the abilities, not their output, and none of these are notoriously powerful. Plus, with Zenurik and Energise, the extra energy would be superfluous.

Again, the only one where this has a genuine impact is Energised Munitions, where the primary/only reason it is bad is the abysmal base duration.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Colyeses said:

Remember that Protea heaps a free +100% power strength on everything too, and that didn't break anything. 

And don't forget about energy refund. In cost of her 4th you can spend and get it back your energy.

 

39 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

If Dispensary isn't overpowered on Protea, where it naturally has an extended uptime, it wouldn't be on Xaku. Dispensary's power doesn't really scale with duration, and it's never been particularly powerful, just extremely broadly applicable.

She needs either duration or strength. With duration you can get more drop as with 12 seconds (reduced time) you get 3 base drops (energy, health and ammo) and 1 drop. Every 5 seconds adds additional drop.

On it's own it's not powerful but if you have many things that use energy/health orbs then the things changes. Put the Equilibrium and you have one free energy/health orb.

So even my ~75% duration & 130%/160% efficiency could sustain the Dispensary (not that it needs for solo gameplay).

 

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

• Roar : More Uptime
• Eclipse : More Uptime
• Spectrorage : The augment lets you create energy fountains. Extending the duration may make it create even more ridiculous amount of orbs
• Nourish Strike : Again more up time.
• Ensnare.

You know, you can just... recast them?
But let's make some math:
 

Quote

 

Roar 75e 30s
Eclipse 25e 25s
Spectrorage 75e 22s
Nourish Strike 50e 25s
Ensnare. 50e 15s

Xaku 100e 25s

 

e = energy, s = second

So the VU should cost less and/or extend more time than infused ability to make it worth*. Let's calculate , more or less, how many infused abilities you can cast and compare time (I'll pick only some):
- the Eclipse: you can cast 4x times the Eclipse so it's not worth using the VU here
- the Roar you you get 5 seconds more for 25 less energy

And other have the same patterns, they are either completely not worth (e.g. the Eclipse) or the gain/lost is very small so it doesn't matter.

 

The one ability that you mentioned, the Dispensary, indeed is starting to get "overpowered wibe" alone (even more with arcanes, mods or other things). That one I would consider "overpowered". However your examples are bad. It's more convenience (so I don't need to cast ability again, which should be build in for lots of abilities). The Molt could be overpowered if you consider here speed buff as overpowered in infinite duration. With 200 strength you are very quick but the duration is bad. However even negative duration Xaku (not extreme cases) would be able to hold speed buff for minutes without any hassle.

 

* of course keeping along one ability may not be worth but 2 or 3? Maybe, but I don't think it would be gamebreaking In lots of cases.

[TKDancer]

4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

1. Dispensary : More uptime
2. Roar : More Uptime
3. Eclipse : More Uptime
4. Spectrorage : The augment lets you create energy fountains. Extending the duration may make it create even more ridiculous amount of orbs
5. Nourish Strike : Again more up time.
6. Ensnare.

 

none of those would really become overpowered tho? all but 1 of them would have their mechanics remain intact, would just trade one cast for the other

only one that would see an actual change would be dispensary since it'd get more time just dropping the goodies it tries to base on current need without having to go through the guaranteed health/ammo/energy cycle at the start

AND for that 1 ability, thats not even a fully beneficial thing, thats a trade off

[TKDancer]

-oops ignore this-

[quxier]

4 hours ago, TKDancer said:

 

Have you... just quoted yourself to make a bigger impact? Just kidding - probably misclick.

[TKDancer]

1 minute ago, quxier said:

Have you... just quoted yourself to make a bigger impact? Just kidding - probably misclick.

prolly tried to edit and did a quote by mistake, oops!

[Leqesai]

The nature of the interaction between xaku's 4th and subsimable duration based abilities is simply not intended. It is less a matter of the interaction being made more powerful than it is the combination being overpowered in the sense that its functionality is different than intended.

For example, roar can be used to buff team members and with xaku it could be set up to effectively keep the buff applied to team members longer than intended, changing the intended flow of gameplay.

Warcry would not need the augment which alters mod potential.

 

Additionally, the argument about energy cost between recasting the abilities and having frozen timers is inherently incorrect because you forget that most xaku builds are already casting untime repeatedly. They are not casting untime specifically to freeze roar, they would be freezing roar, gaze, lohk and accuse... even without using roar they would be using untime for the other abilities. Adding roar to that mix costs only the initial energy, other than that the sustain cost of untime remains unchanged to what the xaku player is already doing to maintain their setups.

[quxier]

34 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Additionally, the argument about energy cost between recasting the abilities and having frozen timers is inherently incorrect because you forget that most xaku builds are already casting untime repeatedly. They are not casting untime specifically to freeze roar, they would be freezing roar, gaze, lohk and accuse... even without using roar they would be using untime for the other abilities. Adding roar to that mix costs only the initial energy, other than that the sustain cost of untime remains unchanged to what the xaku player is already doing to maintain their setups.

Are you sure about that? People use Duration for Xaku, from what I see.  There might be builds not using the VU at all.

However, even disregarding the above statement, you should take into account that you still have to cast something. You either cast 1-3 abilities or the Vast untime. And the VU is not cheap. It's not Protea's 4th where you can cast how many abilities you want in certain amount of time (I could cast >10 for my build).

And don't forget that certain people use Grasp of Lohk for disarming (https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1236312-xakus-grasp-of-lohk-and-accuse-recast-functionality/) so using the VU is detrimental to their style.

To sum up it's not simple. I don't see (Arlo's) light.

 

[Leqesai]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

Are you sure about that? People use Duration for Xaku, from what I see.  There might be builds not using the VU at all.

However, even disregarding the above statement, you should take into account that you still have to cast something. You either cast 1-3 abilities or the Vast untime. And the VU is not cheap. It's not Protea's 4th where you can cast how many abilities you want in certain amount of time (I could cast >10 for my build).

And don't forget that certain people use Grasp of Lohk for disarming (https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1236312-xakus-grasp-of-lohk-and-accuse-recast-functionality/) so using the VU is detrimental to their style.

To sum up it's not simple. I don't see (Arlo's) light.

 

You are correct in the vu being expensive. Which is why freezing the timers on additional abilities makes xaku much stronger. Less energy is spent, over time, with vu because every time it drops you are essentially paying a single cost for all other abilities that have frozen timers. You can generally lose like 0.5s or something per cast so the energy economy spikes considerably if you are delegating additional energy to non frozen timers.

For builds that dont use vu this whole conversation is irrelevant btw... of course there are some people not using vu in their builds but this topic is regarding vu timelocking abilities and whether or not it is appropriate given how strong this ability is. Bottom line, you save a lot of energy by timelocking an ability. Timelocking subsumed abilities is not and allows for synergistic gameplay that is simply not intended.

[TKDancer]

16 hours ago, Leqesai said:

For example, roar can be used to buff team members and with xaku it could be set up to effectively keep the buff applied to team members longer than intended, changing the intended flow of gameplay.

 

we can recast roar after its done, you know that right? it doesnt really alter the flow of gameplay to keep it up by recasting another ability instead, plus DE could also just make it so VU only freezes the duration on self, making it a double edged interaction

 

16 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Warcry would not need the augment which alters mod potential.

again, this would not change mod potential, eternal war is an aug people use in low/negative duration builds, xaku would struggle if built for negative duration as it'd harm the efficiency of VU(plus it'd be annoying to have to recast VU every 10 seconds or less) and again, would still have to recast VU to keep it up, not that different from having to recast warcry itself

the way you talk about VU makes it seem like it gives abilities infinite duration, which it doesnt, it allows abilities to have their durations continued by recasting 1 high-cost ability instead of multiple lower cost ones, and all those abilities still lose sometime every-time VU is used(about .5 seconds without the cast speed mod)

 

16 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Additionally, the argument about energy cost between recasting the abilities and having frozen timers is inherently incorrect because you forget that most xaku builds are already casting untime repeatedly. They are not casting untime specifically to freeze roar, they would be freezing roar, gaze, lohk and accuse... even without using roar they would be using untime for the other abilities. Adding roar to that mix costs only the initial energy, other than that the sustain cost of untime remains unchanged to what the xaku player is already doing to maintain their setups.

and thats called synergy, allowing his kit to fully synergize with helminth would simply add to consistency of their kit

[quxier]

6 hours ago, TKDancer said:

again, this would not change mod potential, eternal war is an aug people use in low/negative duration builds, xaku would struggle if built for negative duration as it'd harm the efficiency of VU(plus it'd be annoying to have to recast VU every 10 seconds or less) and again, would still have to recast VU to keep it up, not that different from having to recast warcry itself

How about ~75% duration? It's ~18 seconds.