Please buff Tigris Prime

[nslay]

I guess the Tigris Prime with 2 60/60s (for Viral) and Shotgun Savvy will have, on average, about the same number of status procs as Exergis (~6.138 vs 6.6)... considering Hell's Chamber.

But it's a question of consistency... Exergis is always flat out 6.6 +/- 0 procs on average (no need for luck... every shot works the same). Tigris Prime is ~6.138 +/- 2

That means that Tigris Prime can proc more than 6 pellets (up to 17.6!). But it can also proc way less than 6 pellets (including 0 pellets). And that's pretty dang awful for a shotgun with a magazine of 2 with a really awful trigger system. Heck, Exergis can be made to have a magazine of 2 and it just always works consistently (6.6 procs every gosh darn time!).

So, which do you prefer?

• Tigris Prime: A weapon that inconsistently procs status for 6.138 pellets on average (give or take 3 stds = 6 pellets 95% of the time)
• Exergis: A weapon that procs status for 6.6 pellets on average (give or take 0 pellets 100% of the time)?

It's clear from multiple perspectives. Tigris Prime has this really bad QoL with its small magazine and terrible trigger system and if you shoot it infinitely, it will be slightly less good than Exergis. If you shoot it sparsely, it will vary wildly by about +/- 6 pellets 95% of the time.

EDIT: Oh yeah! On top of that... while you get all of Exergis' damage behind status proc DoT calculation, you only get 0.34875 of Tigris Prime's damage behind status proc DoT calculation on average (i.e. the DoT is calculated based on the damage of each pellet that procs status). Isn't that wonderful?

Appendix

Tigris Prime base status chance is 0.1125. Two 60/60 mods and a Shotgun Savvy means Tigris Prime has

0.1125*(1 + 2*0.6 + 0.9) = 0.34875

How many pellets with Hell's Chamber? Tigris Prime has 8 pellets base, so that means

8*(1 + 1.2) = 17.6

So you get 17.6 pellets on average.

How many proc on average? Since we're using the pellet status chance now, it's simply:

17.6 * 0.34875 = 6.138

And the variance? Looking up the Binomial distribution on wikipedia, it's

17.6 * 0.34875 * (1 - 0.34875) = 3.9973725

The standard deviation is the square root of this:

sqrt(3.9973725) = 1.99934301709

Without loss of generality, you crunch the numbers for Exergis the same way.

[bad4youLT]

6 hours ago, taiiat said:

even Exergis ended up nerfed in that regard in the long run, with IPS losing the extra weighting, hehe.

 

 

 

How did exergis got nerfd ? I dont recal one for exergis .

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

How did exergis got nerfd ? I dont recal one for exergis .

like i said, via IPS weighting being removed. 

[WOWESOMUCHDOGE]

DE if you read this, just make tigris hit harder, proc more status or reload faster

Cuz im lost in my own thread..

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Here’s hoping the status changes include some kind of revert of the shotgun status changes.

Because yeah seeing what they did to Tigris Prime is depressing.

I think their intention was making the new status changes correlate with how many bullets a shotgun can fire out, but not only is that a terrible idea on its own as you’ll just have shotguns that require far more shots to achieve the same level of status Exergis and Cernos P can in 1. But, the status chances that they did put on the weapons don’t even come close to where they should be. I can find a rifle that fire 8 bullets per second, and have a status chance of atleast 20, and it’s automatically a better choice than Tigris Prime.

[Andele3025]

On 2020-12-09 at 10:48 PM, WOWESOMUCHDOGE said:

DE if you read this, just make tigris hit harder, proc more status or reload faster

Cuz im lost in my own thread..

No need to make it hit harder or reload faster, just give it the 25% status chance per pellet it should have had instead of the nerf by pellet count it got.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2020-12-09 at 4:07 AM, taiiat said:

an argument of pedantic technicalities, with one party being very adamant to consume peoples' time finding ways to justify the state of Shotguns¹, by comparing things unmodded² when nothing has ever been compared unmodded in the entire history of the game, since 2013.

don't worry about it, all you need to know is that yes Shotguns got massively nerfed³ and ones being given a Status role are obsolete compared to other things you could Equip because they lose much more in Fire Rate than they gain in Status, compared to many other Weapons out there. that's all that really matters at the end of the day.

Give me a courtesy mention if you want to have a go, aye?

You're wrong on almost every count, by the way. To hit the three I gave cite-notes:

1. I have stated that the actions of the change match the stated intentions of DE. I have also said that this may not in fact have been sufficient to put the resulting shotguns where they relatively ought to be in regards of other gun categories. What doesn't help that argument is providing fundamentally flawed logic and demands based on the wrong conclusions drawn from said logic. That's just a quick way to get anyone at DE reading it to say, "Well, that's not how it works, so we can ignore these complaints here."
    
2. Weapons can be compared unmodded and I also did not exclusively compare the unmodded values, so try again there. Turns out that when you're using consistent design you can just use unmodded values because everything is direct percentage multipliers on top of that - which we can ignore per the scientific method of simplifying and minimal variables. Mods only matter in this question when comparing new VS old because the old equation did not produce consistent, directly-multiplied results, and when comparing shotguns against non-shotguns as the values of mods themselves do differ (broadly in favour of shotguns, incidentally).
    
3. Shotguns did not get nerfed. Logically incorrect. Only a flawed and inappropriate mathematical equation got fixed, and anything which tapped into that flawed equation to benefit more than it should have no longer does so. Shotguns, at the core of their mechanics, are improved and properly consistent thanks to the change in status logic. It's not all-or-nothing. Again, if you can show examples to prove the new baselines are failing to match up with other primaries, then you can do so and argue the new baselines should be raised a small amount. The equations used, on the other hand, now provide understandable and expected performance. They don't need changing.

 

As you say, IPS changes affected lots of weapons. The Tigris being shifted more into a 'damage proc' niche simply suffered most from that due to its base slash primary in combination with no longer overscaling status applications. 

Edit: Got distracted and derived the rest of the data immediately instead.

At the same generic I've been using before (240% bonus SC from four dualstats) the results for the Tigris Prime are as follows for combinations of old and new type-weights, and the old and new proc rates from the shotgun status change:

Element	Element Proportion	oldWeight Adjustment	oldWeight	newWeight	Weighting Proportion	oldWeight oldRate	newWeight newRate	Total Change Proportion	oldWeight newRate	newWeight oldRate
Impact	0.1	0.4	0.0625	0.02941	0.47058	0.35714	0.06457	0.1808	0.13721	0.16806
Puncture	0.1	0.4	0.0625	0.02941	0.47058	0.35714	0.06457	0.1808	0.13721	0.16806
Slash	0.8	3.2	0.5000	0.23529	0.47058	2.85714	0.51657	0.1808	1.09771	1.34453
Comb-ele 1	1.2	1.2	0.1875	0.35294	1.88235	1.07142	0.77485	0.7232	0.41164	2.01680
Comb-ele 2	1.2	1.2	0.1875	0.35294	1.88235	1.07142	0.77485	0.7232	0.41164	2.01680

 

So, what we see here is that physical procs are down by about 82% as a result of both changes, but elements are only down by 28%.

All procs at the old Weight and new Rate are, as we previously figured, down by about 61.6%. (38.42% of old).

Physical procs at the new Weight and old Rate would be down by about 53% (47.05% of old) while elemental procs would be increased by 88% (188.23% of old).

 

So the change in weight is pretty heavily influencing the outcome as well, here. Literally, your Slash procs are only ~22% better off if the weight was changed and the maths had remained old and busted.

Both are responsible for the Tigris being a wet noodle.

[Andele3025]

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Both are responsible for the Tigris being a wet noodle.

No, its simply because tigris got nerfed by its status per shot nerfed by pellet count/divided by 8 instead of spread probability by pellet count. The change of physical weighting procs count from 28~ slash procs dealing effectively double damage a mag to a hypothetical new +210% viral bonus only setup (if it werent nerfed by pellet count) would be 18~ slash procs a mag dealing 4x the damage per mag. It would have been a 33-36% net buff due to viral going up to 325% instead of 250% (which actually is kinda S#&$ as most guns that can abuse a sprinkle of viral went up by over 69~70% damage.

If you nerf a status shotgun (aka things that fire typically 35-45 status procs a second tho in tigris it was a bit lower/45 per duplex) status chance by its pellet count to perform worse in status output (aka to circa 17 per dupex aka sub 10 procs a second) than even most pure crit rifles or god forbid viable hybrids, naturally its damage drops.

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

No, its simply because tigris got nerfed by its status per shot nerfed by pellet count/divided by 8 instead of spread probability by pellet count.

That's not any more appropriate or correct now than it was when you first deluded yourself into believing it.

This part was for you:

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

What doesn't help that argument is providing fundamentally flawed logic and demands based on the wrong conclusions drawn from said logic. That's just a quick way to get anyone at DE reading it to say, "Well, that's not how it works, so we can ignore these complaints here."

Spreading fallacious reasoning is only making it more difficult for others who are looking at real figures and logic to argue shotgun status rates need improving.

Cease comparing the new, correct equation to the results of broken equations past and start comparing the results of the new to actual, sensible alternatives. There's a lot of them now, because it works consistently with all the other weapons.

The old shotguns are gone, and no longer hold any relevance to balance discussions. We accept their memory, and move beyond their reach.

[Andele3025]

4 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Cease comparing the new, correct equation to the results of broken equations past and start comparing the results of the new to actual, sensible alternatives. There's a lot of them now, because it works consistently with all the other weapons.

That's not any more appropriate or correct now than it was when you first deluded yourself into believing it. Shotgun status was plain nerfed by pellet count and you can deny multinomial distribution existing all you want, wont change that its how status chance per pellet is calculated from status chance total/per shot.

Spreading fallacious reasoning when DE themselves stated on both stream and in the forum post that they will take status chance, triple it and then get the per pellet value AND that 100% status on each pellet was intended is only making it more difficult for others who are looking at real figures and logic to argue shotgun status rates need improving, especially when everyone with grade school knowledge of math understands that 25% status chance on a 16 fire rate gun makes sense for a status weapon while 11.25 doesnt (and literally cant be gained in any way other than nerfing by pellet count from 90% status chance per shot).

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

That's not any more appropriate or correct now than it was when you first deluded yourself into believing it. Shotgun status was plain nerfed by pellet count and you can deny multinomial distribution existing all you want, wont change that its how status chance per pellet is calculated from status chance total/per shot.

Spreading fallacious reasoning when DE themselves stated on both stream and in the forum post that they will take status chance, triple it and then get the per pellet value AND that 100% status on each pellet was intended is only making it more difficult for others who are looking at real figures and logic to argue shotgun status rates need improving, especially when everyone with grade school knowledge of math understands that 25% status chance on a 16 fire rate gun makes sense for a status weapon while 11.25 doesnt (and literally cant be gained in any way other than nerfing by pellet count from 90% status chance per shot).

If you're going to try the old parrot comeback, man, at least do it right. You're embarrassing yourself.

Multinomial distribution exists, but is not the correct mathematical construct for shotgun status, balance and modifications. We've been over this. Take your fingers out of your ears and stop with the argumentum ad nauseum, because that doesn't cut it with me. Notice how your retorts are "NO U LYING AND DUM" while mine are "I see what you did, but your choice of mathematical premise is mistaken"? It's almost like you can't attack my argument's factual basis, so you have to attack the arguer instead. Funny, that.

Even if there's an argument for considering the distribution as a factor of influence when deciding where the balance should lie in the properly consistent format, the simple fact is that reverse-engineering a probability value that we directly modified is as bootleg as it gets. In software dev we have the term 'code smell' for when you see something and just intuitively feel it being terrible, even if it 'works' situationally. Old shotgun status? That equation they used? Stank.

DE said that shotgun status chance would be raised by ~3x. They never said what exactly that ambiguous 'chance' was, and they were not going to use the reverse engineering equation on a modified probability to get the new base because that's the exact problem they were fixing. 
Turns out, as my charts have shown, the shotguns' base chances were all raised 240% to 285% of their original values. What do you know, it's approaching 3 times.
Turns out modded status scales down the resulting difference - because the lower the old chance was, the worse the outcome of the bootleg equation became.
Turns out that because of that exact same logical connection, the slight variance in the baseline Status increases is dependent on the original status chances!
Wow! It's almost like when A*B = C then we can say A*(B*3.4) = C*3.4 as well. What is this sorcery? Oh, that's right, it's basic consistent maths, not a secret magical nerf by pellet count.

The graphs they used showed that 100% per pellet was not providing sensible and balanced results as compared to anything which failed to reach the breaking point. Shotguns were either too good or too bad at status. Now they just do status with the same direct chance scaling as any other gun.

So compare them as they are.

If they're underperforming compared to rifles of a comparable burst and sustainable fire rate (and damage potential, because yes that also matters with damage procs being a thing), show that within the scope of the new system that works consistently between the two.

Don't just say "anyone with basic understanding of maths" 'understands' your argument, because that's meaningless fallacy. Provide the numbers. Remember, I already did that comparing proc potential of things like the Boltor Prime, Tiberon Prime, and Prisma Grakata against the Boar Prime and Tigris Prime? You were generally too busy calling me a lying idiot to actually try finding support for your own argument from interpreting those figures I helpfully provided.

[taiiat]

10 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

-snip-

trying to type long enough ramble so that you hope that people will fold and say "okay you win, irregardless of actuality" is a waste of time on me, just stop pinging me with it.

try it on someone more gullible, thanks. i don't need to be harassed, i'm busy enough as it is.
if anywhere you go you can't be bothered to read the sections of what people are saying, mainly the ones that you don't think support you - just don't waste my time.

[MacIntoc]

It would have been sufficient to reuse the old SC numbers (30% SC/shot -> 30% SC/pellet) to benefit from the advantages of the new formula (in fact, they should generalise this formula to every weapons wich are not flux or melee, as long as they use the SC/shot as SC/pellet). But there is clearly a willingness to nerve the shotguns in reducing the SC as much. And the fact that they tried to pass this nerve like a buff of ~3x the old values/pellets (this is true if we only look at the base stats, but false if we take into account the fact that the mods increase a lower value than before, so we get very much less benefit from them) is not reassuring on their willingness to upgrade the shotguns.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Even if we got 100% status chance shotguns back, only the Slash based ones would be good due to the nerf to Corrosive. 

Strun Wraith RIP.

[nslay]

10 minutes ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Even if we got 100% status chance shotguns back, only the Slash based ones would be good due to the nerf to Corrosive. 

Strun Wraith RIP.

You got Exergis and it works OK for Viral/Slash if you mod it right and get the Viral and Slash damage values just right (a good amount of Slash and not too much Viral while having 100% status!).

I think Viral/Electric works nicely too! And Gas Exergis is my absolute favorite for Infested missions!

Spoiler

 

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

If they're underperforming compared to rifles of a comparable burst and sustainable fire rate (and damage potential . . . )

Do you think they're underperforming, by and large?  If so, what would you do to fix that if you could?

[Andele3025]

8 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Multinomial distribution exists, but is not the correct mathematical construct

TLDR  yes you are refusing to accept that multinominal distribution exists because anyone who understands (grade to high school) math knows that thats how you calculate multi result probability. Which is what the status chance per shot was. And dividing it by pellet count is nerfing it by pellet count. And you do understand shotguns still use multinominal distribution, right? Because tigris prime has effectively a 61.5% status chance per shot (because it was nerfed by pellet count from 90% instead of properly calculated to 25% per pellet, thus 11.25% per pellet).

Quote

DE said that shotgun status chance would be raised by ~3x.

Something that didnt happen despite them saying they did they will buff shotgun per shot chance by 3x while converting to per pellet.

Quote

The graphs they used showed that 100% per pellet was not providing sensible and balanced results as compared to anything which failed to reach the breaking point. Shotguns were either too good or too bad at status. Now they just do status with the same direct chance scaling as any other gun.

Except it was, it was literally around what shotguns were balanced. Its why status shotguns were competitive with status rifles. Now the only status shotgun in existence is the Exergis and if you wanna count the Kohms pre spool as it nerfs itself with spoolup because DE is still using the old status chance per shot with 3x+/nerf by pellet count filter and the universal game engine change of going from binomial results to multinomial.

[nslay]

While discussing Sobek with friends... I just noticed that Kuva Hind is effectively a shotgun with 5 pellets, 33% status chance and majority Slash (and it gets a bonus element). Sobek is a shotgun with 5 pellets, 16.2% status and majority Impact damage.

So then... I want to hear about the Kuva Hind and Sobek from the people who thought the old system was broken (100% per-shot status shotguns is broken right?) and how Kuva Hind is OK now when Sobek is nearly identical but was one example of "broken" in the old system. Please, please, go on... explain why Kuva Hind isn't considered broken even though it's effectively a 100% Slash-based status shotgun in this system right now.

I think Kuva Hind needs to be nerfed to be in line with the changes to shotguns. Kuva Hind should have 19.8% (0.33*3/5) per-projectile status chance now. We can't be having multiple projectile weapons with more than 3 pellets being able to attain 100% status. That's just broken /s.

References:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Sobek

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kuva_Hind

 

[nslay]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

Do you think they're underperforming, by and large?  If so, what would you do to fix that if you could?

I think each shotgun probably needs to be looked at individually (instead of this sweeping 3*S/N treatment). That's probably a tall order and I'm not really sure what you do with former status monsters like Strun Wraith. The former Strun Wraith was probably legitimately too powerful (10 pellets!).

But Sobek I think should be buffed to something similar to Kuva Hind (both have 5 pellets/projectiles). I also think the Shattering Justice augment should be reverted to +20 percentage points or be buffed to +124% status chance (because +90% additive with other mods is a nerf).

Easy to show that the Shattering Justice augment is nerfed (bolded values are from augment):

• Old system = 0.27*(1 + sum of status mods) + 0.2
• New system = 0.162*(1 + sum of status mods + 0.9) = 0.162*(1 + sum of status mods) + 0.162*0.9

It's easy to see that 0.162*0.9 < 0.2

It's important to consider the status effect changes... Corrosive is not as powerful as it used to be. So even though this gun has a powerful augment like Acid Shells, it's just not as powerful as it used to be owing to changes to Corrosive.

Tigris family of weapons status chance should be buffed to equalize these aspects:

• The IPS weight was removed, so it's harder to proc Slash (especially if you add more elements like Viral)
• The former Tigris weapons could make better use of its base damage in DoT calculations (because all of them could potentially proc DoT effects)... with sub 100% status-per-projectile, only a smaller fraction of Tigris projectiles will be used in DoT calculations. So the amount of damage from DoT from status effects is substantially less than before.

Tigris was designed to be a Slash DoT weapon right? This is an enormous double nerf to Tigris (and it's mostly a Tigris shotgun problem). Exergis only suffers from the first point, but all projectiles can proc status potentially using 100% of its output damage to calculate DoT effects. So it's not as bad for Exergis...

Consider also that Tigris has a really awful trigger system with a very small magazine (IMO). I don't know, maybe I just need to use it more to learn to like that weird trigger system.

I'll have to think more about other shotguns. And again, I have no good answer for Strun Wraith... that one. I don't know! But it definitely doesn't feel very good to use now!

 

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, nslay said:

And again, I have no good answer for Strun Wraith... that one. I don't know! But it definitely doesn't feel very good to use now!

I'd love to see it be just vaguely relevant again in some fashion.   A little more crit (And Primed Blunderbuss!) would be interesting, making it a better hybrid weapon.   Like a reflection of  Vaykor Hek: impact instead of puncture, still more biased toward status than crit, less dps but better range.

And a clunky but cool loading system.

[MacIntoc]

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

Something that didnt happen despite them saying they did they will buff shotgun per shot chance by 3x while converting to per pellet.

Yes, that happen. But since the new values are lower than previous, the SC mods don't increase it enough. Nothing by much it's still nothing.

[TheLexiConArtist]

On 2020-12-13 at 6:00 AM, Andele3025 said:

TLDR  yes you are refusing to accept that multinominal distribution exists because anyone who understands (grade to high school) math knows that thats how you calculate multi result probability. Which is what the status chance per shot was. And dividing it by pellet count is nerfing it by pellet count. And you do understand shotguns still use multinominal distribution, right? Because tigris prime has effectively a 61.5% status chance per shot (because it was nerfed by pellet count from 90% instead of properly calculated to 25% per pellet, thus 11.25% per pellet).

Something that didnt happen despite them saying they did they will buff shotgun per shot chance by 3x while converting to per pellet.

Except it was, it was literally around what shotguns were balanced. Its why status shotguns were competitive with status rifles. Now the only status shotgun in existence is the Exergis and if you wanna count the Kohms pre spool as it nerfs itself with spoolup because DE is still using the old status chance per shot with 3x+/nerf by pellet count filter and the universal game engine change of going from binomial results to multinomial.

You see 3x/N and call it a 'nerf by pellet count'.. it isn't, though. It's normalising the change so that the shotguns get an equitable benefit no matter how many pellets they had. "Not buffing by pellet count" != "nerfing by pellet count".

It also prevented a 'rich getting richer' scenario of high status benefitting more than low status if you then did the bootleg maths on that triplication. I ran the numbers you didn't dare to except a single cherry-picking claim - instead of the 240% to 285% we got, the net baseline status-per-second gain across most shotties at base would be from 340% (Corinth) to 723% (Exergis) - except they'd all be blown out of the water because the Strun Wraith would have gained 2008% base status potential because its 40%*3 hits the >=100% break threshold. So no, reverse-engineering probability cannot be and was not correct to use.

If the process nerfed the shotguns based on pellet quantity, then the charted data which I have shown would have had a negative correlation. It doesn't. The division by pellets is exactly to cancel out pellet count from the process entirely.

On 2020-12-13 at 6:21 AM, nslay said:

While discussing Sobek with friends... I just noticed that Kuva Hind is effectively a shotgun with 5 pellets, 33% status chance and majority Slash (and it gets a bonus element). Sobek is a shotgun with 5 pellets, 16.2% status and majority Impact damage.

So then... I want to hear about the Kuva Hind and Sobek from the people who thought the old system was broken (100% per-shot status shotguns is broken right?) and how Kuva Hind is OK now when Sobek is nearly identical but was one example of "broken" in the old system. Please, please, go on... explain why Kuva Hind isn't considered broken even though it's effectively a 100% Slash-based status shotgun in this system right now.

I think Kuva Hind needs to be nerfed to be in line with the changes to shotguns. Kuva Hind should have 19.8% (0.33*3/5) per-projectile status chance now. We can't be having multiple projectile weapons with more than 3 pellets being able to attain 100% status. That's just broken /s.

References:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Sobek

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Kuva_Hind

Okay, someone's actually giving some sensible comparison questions! Let's work with this.

First off, a basic low-grade gun like the Sobek versus a Kuva Lich weapon? That's already grounds for a disparity. We'll keep this in mind going forwards.

Burst fire weapons aren't exactly statistic equivalent with shotguns, but luckily we have the auto-mode to sanity-check and we already boil down the shotguns into 'bullets per second' anyway to draw proper comparisons. So we have a 10 bullet per second Kuva Hind (counting the between-burst delay, this checks out with the 5-round burst at 9.09 fire rate).  I'll still use the burst-fire damage profile.

Kuva Hind burstfire shot at maximal lich Bonus = 48 damage, crit 21%/2.1x makes an average bullet damage profile of 61.2, fire rate of 10 makes our burst DPS 612 and the mag size of 90 and reload of 2.3s gives a reloading quotient of ~79.64%.

Sobek (singular pellet) = 70 damage, crit 11%/2x makes average pellet damage 77.7, fire rate of 2.5 makes burst DPS 194.25 and 20 mag capacity with 2/7s reload makes our reload quotient ~74.76%

Kuva Hind fires (10 FR * 1 Pellet * RQ) = ~7.96 bullets per second sustained through reloading.

Sobek fires (2.5 FR * 5 Pellets * RQ) = ~9.35 bullets per second sustained through reloading.

==>Post-Fatigue Correction: 

Kuva Hind sustains a DPS of 7.96 * 61.2 = 487.4

Sobek sustains a DPS of 9.35 * 77.7 = 726.2

Despite being a far lower tier gun, shotguns have been given huge effective fire rates and/or damage potential, making the Sobek beat the maxed Kuva Lich weapon in both. As a damage profile, this is partially offset by the spread and falloff native to shotguns. Statuses, however, are not affected equally. Spread counts if you miss, but falloff only affects damage procs.

Status Chance Outcomes:

I've used 380% modded status chance here because 340% wasn't enough to let the Sobek hit break threshold before.

The Kuva Hind with 33% SC and 7.96 bullets per second procs ~2.63 times per second at base, ~10 times per second at the modded value.

The Old Maths Sobek with 27% probabilistic SC and 9.35 bullets per second procced ~0.57 times per second at base, ~9.35 times per second at the modded value.
The New Maths Sobek with 16.2% SC/pellet and and 9.35 bullets per second procs ~1.51 times per second at base, ~5.75 times per second at the modded value.

 

==>Corrected Yes, actually, I would say that the old broke-maths is proven as being broken here. A shotgun is not only statistically performing far above its station already just for being a shotgun, but that much lower-tier gun was also able to almost match the procs per second of a Kuva Lich weapon with a higher base status chance when modded, despite being far less capable of status at base. It doesn't add up.

Now its baseline status at the new chance is consistent with the modded status, and both directly compare with easily readable values to the Hind. Since shotguns are naturally over-tuned in projectiles per second and damage, there's no excuse for it to be at the upper echelons of its old potential since, again, we're comparing an everyday weapon (with 1.33 Riven disposition and typically superior mods as even further advantages) to a maximised-bonus Lich weapon (with a flat 1.0 dispo currently).

If shotguns are allowed to be above-tier in effective fire rate, above-tier in damage, and above-tier in status chance, how can rifles compete viably? Is 'can effectively shoot a little bit further' generally that relevant, or the avoidance of occasionally missing a projectile due to pellet spread? 

[nslay]

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Burst fire weapons aren't exactly statistic equivalent with shotguns

No, actually mechanically they're identical. Both modes shoot multiple projectiles/pellets simultaneously in one shot. If you want to do status chance calculations with burst fire or shotguns, you do it the same way now (both operate on a per-projectile status chance). There is no difference (ammo is depleted differently though!)... and that one was of the intentions of DE: to make everything work the same.

You're missing the point with the comparison:

Anti-100%-status shotgun critics: You shouldn't be able to proc massive numbers of pellets 100% of the time. This is broken and OP.
Me: Kuva Hind burst fire shares the same number of projectiles as Sobek's pellet count and can achieve > 100% SC. This is "broken" right?

And you're missing the big big picture with shotguns. People liked to use shotguns because they were unique in that they could proc lots and lots of status in single a shot. I don't care about anything you wrote about any kind of DPS comparison or quotient or whatever - it's completely irrelevant to what any of us talking about - I care that I could take a shot and see lots of little pictures of damage types on an enemy and have a cool effect like DoT Christmas trees or lots of stripped armor. That was a very cool thing you could do with shotguns before. And I now use Exergis because it's the only real shotgun (i.e. > 1 pellet) that can do that still. But make no mistake, Exergis is just a high damage burst rifle compared to shotguns in the past (aside of Hind and Quartakk, all burst rifles have <= 3 projectiles per shot).

You want to do DPS quotients? Wrong audience! We don't care. You're not conveying anything useful here. And we're also talking about Sobek... people who played Sobek before were doing so because it was fun (and Acid Shells was pretty fun). Those same people don't find it fun anymore... why do you suppose that is? Read the previous paragraph again.

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

First off, a basic low-grade gun like the Sobek versus a Kuva Lich weapon? That's already grounds for a disparity. We'll keep this in mind going forwards.

First of all, I don't care about the MR aspect. It's subjective with many inconsistent examples (like Kohm or Soma Prime) and we can run circles around what we think MR should mean forever reaching no conclusion. Second, the Sobek is a majority Impact weapon vs the Kuva Hind which is a majority Slash weapon. I think that, by itself, covers the 5 MR difference, don't you? We don't need to further render Sobek completely unusable like it is now and also nerf its augment on top of that for no good reason.

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Status Chance Outcomes:

I've used 380% modded status chance here because 340% wasn't enough to let the Sobek hit break threshold before.

The Kuva Hind with 33% SC and 7.96 bullets per second procs ~2.63 times per second at base, ~10 times per second at the modded value.

The Old Maths Sobek with 27% probabilistic SC and 1.87 bullets per second procced ~0.57 times per second at base, ~9.35 times per second at the modded value.
The New Maths Sobek with 16.2% SC/pellet and and 1.87 bullets per second procs ~1.51 times per second at base, ~5.75 times per second at the modded value.

This, my friend, is what we care about! This is the entire discussion here... and frankly, what you wrote concerns me. Not for shotguns, but the fact that you think

1. That 340% modded status chance wasn't enough to make Sobek 100% status in the old system (that's the only system where a threshold was discussed)?
2. That 380% modded status chance was enough to surpass the "threshold"?

Maybe you're confused by something in the new system (where nobody seriously discusses a "threshold" anymore). In the old system, Sobek had 27% base status chance (as you noted)... this is plenty to reach 100% status in the old system (without a Riven). We can check this by inverting DE's strange formula S_old = S_new*N/3

0.27 = 0.162*5/3

What's the "threshold"? It's certainly far less than 380%.

1/0.27 - 1 ~ 2.70

So you needed 270% modded status chance. Let's use 4 60/60s and the old augment:

0.27*(1 + 4*0.6) + 0.2 > 1

This is probably how everyone modded Sobek before. Or maybe they used Motus Setup or Nano Applicator instead of the augment. Point is... 100% status chance was reachable in the old system with normal mods (no Riven needed!). With Hell's Chamber we could actually expect this many procs per second (given SC = 100%):

5*(1 + 1.2)*2.5 = 27.5 procs per second (2.5 fire rate)

So 27.5 bullets per second = 27.5 procs per second.

What about the new system!? Well the augment is nerfed to work like a normal status mod... let's recompute the status chance

0.162*(1 + 4*0.6 + 0.9) ~ 0.7

5*(1 + 1.2)*2.5*0.7 = 19.25 procs per second

We both knew it was going to be worse... And there's an unwritten standard deviation that essentially describes how these weapons feel unreliable/inconsistent now (it's +/-2 ... 95% of the time you will be within +/- 6 procs).

How about Kuva Hind with Split Chamber, 4 60/60s? I'm going to assume the semi-auto fire rate is the burst fire rate... a fire rate of 9.09 is far too high to be believable for burst (someone will get carpal tunnel syndrome at fire rate of 9!):

SC = 0.33*(1 + 4*0.6) > 1

5*(1 + 0.9)*2.5 = 23.75

So we can expect 23.75 projectiles per second to proc 23.75 times per second.

2 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Yes, actually, I would say that the old broke-maths is proven as being broken here. A weapon firing more than 75% slower and also being a much lower-tier gun was able to almost match the procs per second of a Kuva Lich weapon firing 4 times faster than itself (and with a higher base status chance).

Now it still procs more than half as often as the Kuva Hind despite the (Bullet|Pellet) per second difference. Is it still a bit of a comparatively crappy weapon for damage procs since it also only has about 30% the damage profile and can't scale as well off additional crit mods? Yeah. But it's up against a Lich weapon, so we expected a damage difference.

You're not painting an accurate picture here. First, your math and conclusion have inexplicable errors. For example, there are numbers like 380% that are not right in either system. Or you seem to be confusing Kuva Hind's burst mode with its full auto fire rate. It's not clearly documented anywhere for burst mode, but burst mode works more like semi-auto mode where you tap LMB and the gun shoots once (in this case, it shoots 5 projectiles). For reasons of practicality, I assume the burst mode has a fire rate of 2.5 shared with semi-auto (so it's not 9 like you think it is). In this interpretation both weapons have the same profile: fire rate = 2.5 and each shot is comprised of 5 pellets/projectiles. Your conclusion also ignores the key difference that Sobek procs Impact and Kuva Hind procs Slash. I mean, so what if old Sobek could proc 27.5 pellets per second vs Kuva Hind's burst mode 23.75 projectiles per second... most of Sobek's procs are useless Impact procs.

 

[TheLexiConArtist]

30 minutes ago, nslay said:

No, actually mechanically they're identical. Both modes shoot multiple projectiles/pellets simultaneously in one shot. If you want to do status chance calculations with burst fire or shotguns, you do it the same way now (both operate on a per-projectile status chance). There is no difference (ammo is depleted differently though!)... and that one was of the intentions of DE: to make everything work the same.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but you know that burst-fire generally fires in.. a burst, not as a shotgun, right?

I can certainly see the Kuva Hind shooting a sequence of 5 bullets, which hit at slightly delayed rates to each other. I was intrigued to see that modding the fire rate didn't affect that burst rhythm (I'm sure it used to?) and instead just affects the re-shooting delay, making the arsenal stat for burst mode woefully misleading when modded. But it still shoots a sequential burst, not a single spread.

The Quartakk, on the other hand, now that does fire more like a shotgun.

30 minutes ago, nslay said:

You're missing the point with the comparison:

Anti-100%-status shotgun critics: You shouldn't be able to proc massive numbers of pellets 100% of the time. This is broken and OP.
Me: Kuva Hind burst fire shares the same number of projectiles as Sobek's pellet count and can achieve > 100% SC. This is "broken" right?

The new system does allow the possibility of 100%-per-pellet (see Exergis) without being a problem case. Shotguns just tend to put a lot more pellets downrange than people give them the credit for, such as the 22.6 effective (sustained) pellet-per-second rate of a Boar Prime compared to the 12.7 of the Prisma Grakata.

If you look at the burst figures without the shotguns' poor reloading trend, they get even more egregious. Anything from a 7 up to a whopping 37 base effective fire rate. 

Saying that, I just realised I did make a grievous clerical error and the Sobek does fire effectively faster in pellets/second than the Hind, not abysmally slower. I forgot that column on my sheet was pre-pellet for shotguns while (naturally) the full fire rate of rifles. I'm not above owning my own mistakes. Look, it's even massively visible by giving it colour. I'm tired. 

30 minutes ago, nslay said:

And you're missing the big big picture with shotguns. People liked to use shotguns because they were unique in that they could proc lots and lots of status in single a shot. I don't care about anything you wrote about any kind of DPS comparison or quotient or whatever - it's completely irrelevant to what any of us talking about - I care that I could take a shot and see lots of little pictures of damage types on an enemy and have a cool effect like DoT Christmas trees or lots of stripped armor. That was a very cool thing you could do with shotguns before. And I now use Exergis because it's the only real shotgun (i.e. > 1 pellet) that can do that still. But make no mistake, Exergis is just a high damage burst rifle compared to shotguns in the past (aside of Hind and Quartakk, all burst rifles have <= 3 projectiles per shot).

You want to do DPS quotients? Wrong audience! We don't care. You're not conveying anything useful here. And we're also talking about Sobek... people who played Sobek before were doing so because it was fun (and Acid Shells was pretty fun). Those same people don't find it fun anymore... why do you suppose that is? Read the previous paragraph again.

Wrong audience yourself, balance doesn't care about what your subjective definition of 'fun' is. Balance is numbers and relationships between like entities.

You can think it's 'cool' to proc twenty statuses per second on a single target, but if that happened because your 340% (clarified later) is actually an effective 2300% in practice then that's a broken mechanism that needed fixing.

30 minutes ago, nslay said:

First of all, I don't care about the MR aspect. It's subjective with many inconsistent examples (like Kohm or Soma Prime) and we can run circles around what we think MR should mean forever reaching no conclusion. Second, the Sobek is a majority Impact weapon vs the Kuva Hind which is a majority Slash weapon. I think that, by itself, covers the 5 MR difference, don't you? We don't need to further render Sobek completely unusable like it is now and also nerf its augment on top of that for no good reason.

I don't care whether you care about it. I didn't even bring up the MR. The fact remains, the Sobek is a marketplace gun with resources you can skim off the most basic planets in the star chart. It is not suited to compete on even footing with a gun produced by a late-game system like the Kuva Liches.

Besides, the IPS weighting changes also benefited the Sobek (because it's impact-focused) while they hurt the slash-focused Kuva Hind.

30 minutes ago, nslay said:

This, my friend, is what we care about! This is the entire discussion here... and frankly, what you wrote concerns me. Not for shotguns, but the fact that you think

1. That 340% modded status chance wasn't enough to make Sobek 100% status in the old system (that's the only system where a threshold was discussed)?
2. That 380% modded status chance was enough to surpass the "threshold"?

Maybe you're confused by something in the new system (where nobody seriously discusses a "threshold" anymore). In the old system, Sobek had 27% base status chance (as you noted)... this is plenty to reach 100% status in the old system (without a Riven). We can check this by inverting DE's strange formula S_old = S_new*N/3

0.27 = 0.162*5/3

What's the "threshold"? It's certainly far less than 380%.

1/0.27 - 1 ~ 2.70

So you needed 270% modded status chance. Let's use 4 60/60s and the old augment:

0.27*(1 + 4*0.6) + 0.2 > 1

This is probably how everyone modded Sobek before. Or maybe they used Motus Setup or Nano Applicator instead of the augment. Point is... 100% status chance was reachable in the old system with normal mods (no Riven needed!).

You misinterpreted. 380% total modded status chance = 100% (base) + 280% (from mods).

+270% is not sufficient, it actually nets 25% fewer procs per second, just for that tiny 0.1% difference in chance, which is a pretty good example of just how much that old system stank.

30 minutes ago, nslay said:

With Hell's Chamber we could actually expect this many procs per second (given SC = 100%):

5*(1 + 1.2)*2.5 = 27.5 procs per second (2.5 fire rate)

So 27.5 bullets per second = 27.5 procs per second.

What about the new system!? Well the augment is nerfed to work like a normal status mod... let's recompute the status chance

0.162*(1 + 4*0.6 + 0.9) ~ 0.7

5*(1 + 1.2)*2.5*0.7 = 19.25 procs per second

We both knew it was going to be worse... And there's an unwritten standard deviation that essentially describes how these weapons feel unreliable/inconsistent now (it's +/-2 ... 95% of the time you will be within +/- 6 procs).

How about Kuva Hind with Split Chamber, 4 60/60s? I'm going to assume the semi-auto fire rate is the burst fire rate... a fire rate of 9.09 is far too high to be believable for burst (someone will get carpal tunnel syndrome at fire rate of 9!):

SC = 0.33*(1 + 4*0.6) > 1

5*(1 + 0.9)*2.5 = 23.75

So we can expect 23.75 projectiles per second to proc 23.75 times per second.

Multishot is a direct multiplier and since the mod favours shotguns regardless, I left it out to give the better case scenario for the Hind.

We both can tell the FR statistic of the Hind's burst mode is some sort of questionable derivative, but in function I believe it is closest to the auto rate of 10 (=2 bursts per second) rather than the 2.5 of semi-auto.

You're also only judging by alpha and not accounting for reloads (which once again typically favours rifles).

Alpha at +280% SC from mods:
Sobek, Old: 12.5 procs per second before multishot
Sobek, New:  7.7 procs per second before multishot
Kuva Hind: 12.54 procs per second before multishot

Sustained at +280% SC from mods as before:
Sobek, Old:  9.34 procs per second 
Sobek, New: 5.75 procs per second
Kuva Hind:  9.99 procs per second 
 

30 minutes ago, nslay said:

You're not painting an accurate picture here. First, your math and conclusion have inexplicable errors. For example, there are numbers like 380% that are not right in either system. Or you seem to be confusing Kuva Hind's burst mode with its full auto fire rate. It's not clearly documented anywhere for burst mode, but burst mode works more like semi-auto mode where you tap LMB and the gun shoots once (in this case, it shoots 5 projectiles). For reasons of practicality, I assume the burst mode has a fire rate of 2.5 shared with semi-auto (so it's not 9 like you think it is). In this interpretation both weapons have the same profile: fire rate = 2.5 and each shot is comprised of 5 pellets/projectiles. Your conclusion also ignores the key difference that Sobek procs Impact and Kuva Hind procs Slash. I mean, so what if old Sobek could proc 27.5 pellets per second vs Kuva Hind's burst mode 23.75 projectiles per second... most of Sobek's procs are useless Impact procs.

Explained the 380% as including the 100% natural base.

Kuva Hind's auto fire rate is relatively consistent with burst mode operation from my quick Simulacrum check. The burst itself fires at a statically fast rate, but tinkering with the fire speed via mods does seem to peg the net rounds per second at about 10; there's a notably long delay between registering trigger pulls that raises the anchor to ~2 per second at most.

Again, I point out that I did draw a mistaken conclusion on the Sobek's effective bullet rate, so the real question remaining is whether a prior 6% lower listed status and its lower quality justify the relative halving of proc output. Now my head is clear of that fatigue-addled presumption, I do think that might be a little bit on the low end, but the old-form was still too high of a gain since it absolutely shouldn't be competing with the lategame tier weapon at base - that's why the Sobek has a 33% greater Riven disposition to play with, and I'm still not counting the better shotgun mods.

Since you want to bring in IPS procs and I already did the spreadsheet duty for the Tigris, I can immediately point out that, at a reasonable 4 dualstats' worth of elemental bonus, bursting the Hind does 53% fewer Slash procs in favour of 88% more elemental procs while the combination of systemic change and weighting change means the Sobek does 71% fewer Impact procs (and 16% more elemental procs than it did before the change, despite fewer total procs per second!) Therefore, your conclusion of the IPS spread's relevance is flawed. Sobek may even be doing better than it ever was if all the Impact and Puncture is considered 'useless', although it is also even more lacking of slash than the weak rate it had previously.

[Tiltskillet]

25 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I was intrigued to see that modding the fire rate didn't affect that burst rhythm (I'm sure it used to?) and instead just affects the re-shooting delay, making the arsenal stat for burst mode woefully misleading when modded.

Fire rate mods are tightening the burst for me in captura.  Haven't tried it outside of that.