Should Remove Shield Gating

[Rubbertubtub01]

Shield gating should be removed from Conclave as it, for lack of better words, completely ruins the game-mode. 

Imagine landing consecutive shots onto your enemy but they are invulnerable and you just wasted your ammo and effort, because that's exactly what is happening. 

DE please, it probably won't even take that long. And when it's done, it's done, you don't have to think about it again... There is no down side. 

[Drasiel]

I came in here fully prepared to argue against this from the title. However this is for conclave with which I do not play. You might want to add "in conclave" to the title or you may be assaulted by pver's misunderstanding your intent. You don't need us muddying the waters 😅

[TheSixOfDiamonds]

24 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

I came in here fully prepared to argue against this from the title. However this is for conclave with which I do not play. You might want to add "in conclave" to the title or you may be assaulted by pver's misunderstanding your intent. You don't need us muddying the waters 😅

To be fair, this is posted in the "Conclave Feedback" section. But also being fair, I was expecting fireworks already.

I can't imagine how infuriating it must be to have Shield Gating in Conclave.

[Drasiel]

Just now, TheSixOfDiamonds said:

To be fair, this is posted in the "Conclave Feedback" section. But also being fair, I was expecting fireworks already.

I can't imagine how infuriating it must be to have Shield Gating in Conclave.

Yes the issue is with the forums, the latest topics doesn't show the forum it's posted in.

I can imagine it would be very frustrating but I wonder if it is at all beneficial to new players getting into conclave. I know my first impressions were absolutely miserable as the people who play conclave have been playing for ages and have a really high skill cap, I was just instantly destroyed so many times and I never even knew how it happened, just blart dead. It's hard for some people to be motivated to "git gud" when your entire play sessions is waiting out death timers.

[Sevek7]

3 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I can imagine it would be very frustrating but I wonder if it is at all beneficial to new players getting into conclave. I know my first impressions were absolutely miserable as the people who play conclave have been playing for ages and have a really high skill cap, I was just instantly destroyed so many times and I never even knew how it happened, just blart dead. It's hard for some people to be motivated to "git gud" when your entire play sessions is waiting out death timers.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head! I'm a conclave player, and at first I found shield gating annoying. In fact, I still find shield gating really annoying! It's very frustrating to land hits with no damage. Not to mention, sometimes due to lag your opponents shields will keep recharging even after you hit them, which greatly increases the time needed to start damaging health.

But! As you said, it actually does lower the skill gap. It gives new players more of a chance. This is especially important because people generally use the "recover health when making a kill" mod, which allows good players to go on some pretty insane killing sprees - especially against new players. Shield gating helped to mitigate this, because generally a fight between two skilled players ends with one making the kill, but still losing their shields. The surviving player (now shieldless) is then very vulnerable to another incoming player with full shields, since the incoming player still has both shield and the gating to protect them. Therefore, shield gating reduces the crazy long kill sprees, which I think is a good thing.

So, I actually disagree with the OP here. (Sorry, @Rubbertubtub01  we still friends right? <3) 

There is a very fair discussion to be had about skill floor and skill ceiling, and most successful PvP games go for the "high skill floor, low skill ceiling" formula that is very welcoming to new players. Warframe of course did the opposite, with an very low floor and very high ceiling. There are matches where I notice a new player trying their best but ending with 0 kills and 20+ deaths. This is a sign that the skill ceiling needs to be lowered / skill floor needs to be raised. Shield gating did exactly that. Of course, doing so hurt the high skill players, but the health of the game-mode improved as a result, so I'm all for it :)

[Stormdragon]

11 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

But! As you said, it actually does lower the skill gap. It gives new players more of a chance.

I'd argue it doesn't lower the skill gap, but increases it instead since shield gating increases TTK and can be bypassed with headshots. Newer players usuallly aren't as good at movement as older ones, so they can't get to use it as effectively as an older player.

That's before we start talking about how it encourages low engagement gameplay over actually staying to fight. There's a reason why most matches have someone runnig around with high burst damage weapons (snipers, karaks, vipers, furis, akzani, etc) with high mobility who only picks on already weakened enemies and running away as soon as their shields get low (and seeing those players tank lex bodyshots with 1HP and 1 shield is one the reasons why fast fire rate autos are so commonly used as finishers, specially stuff like akzani with its high burst damage and good sustainability that matches viper's after triggering skull shots once for the entire mag but without said requirement, making it much easier to use)

11 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

This is especially important because people generally use the "recover health when making a kill" mod, which allows good players to go on some pretty insane killing sprees - especially against new players.

Issues created by the modding system are a non-argument since these should be fixed on their own.

I'd rather see DE make "reload while holstered" mods mutually exclusive with "EHP recover on kill" ones since these paired together offer a huge advantage with almost no drawback -other than reduced HP orb efficiency- rather than seeing them keep shield gating because of it. Hell, add weapon specific augments if needed as a way to balance mods (and that's on top of an obviously required weapon balance pass).

 

[Tyreaus]

17 hours ago, Drasiel said:

I was just instantly destroyed so many times and I never even knew how it happened, just blart dead.

Not to get too off-topic but Conclave has absolutely abysmal information transparency and I'm pretty firmly convinced that's a big reason for a miserable experience. You look at almost every other shooter in the modern era and you have kill cams and damage recaps and a massive assortment of other tools. Even bullet trails. Here, you fall over dead with "Sniper Prime" by "XxYoloswag420xX" showing at the bottom of the screen (even if you were actually shot by two people) and told "good luck figuring that out". Being killed by high-skilled players sucks, but having nothing to work with to improve is fatal.

Literally, I don't play Conclave because it gives me nothing to learn, and as much as extant players have tried to help, they give conflicting advice - which I'm sure each is fitting for given situations but I don't know what those situations are because the players aren't omniscient and the game doesn't help.

(Yes, I'm a touch salty about that topic...)

That said, I agree with shield gating (as it's currently implemented) increasing the skill gap because of headshots. It massively increases the TTK gap between headshots and non-headshots, and unskilled players are more likely to be hitting the latter, not the former. Net result is that the average TTK for new players substantially increases while the average TTK for experienced players (especially verse new players) is about the same, if not hardly a smidge higher.

If shield gating is to be kept for the purpose of lowering the skill ceiling, it should probably apply head to toe and, likely, have some kind of adjustment to replenishing mechanics to compensate.

I don't really agree with it decreasing engagement, based on my anecdotes at least - games I've played feel no different than before shield gating, where players with low or depleted shields would run away and through cover-rich environments to heal. The only difference now seems that that tactic is a touch easier, since players can use the shield gate as "cover" in lieu of a physical obstacle. But for most players I've seen back then, it was never a gigantic issue.

FWIW, as an inexperienced player, I would sooner see the total health of players massively dropped, shield gating removed in kind, and the respawn timer almost entirely obliterated - go the Super Meat Boy route. Quick deaths, quicker respawn times. If new or low-skilled players are going to get bodied anyway, at least give them the opportunity to get a lucky kill here or there.

[taiiat]

i think there is a possible place for it, but different than it is now. either say, having a very short Duration or just no Duration, so that your Shields resist one hit but nothing more than that. while increasing the Headshot overflow against Shield Gating from the 5% it is (assuming it isn't already different in Conclave) to more like, 25%.
so Shields would at most be able to reduce the Damage of an overflowing first hit by 75%, and not resist any further Shots unless it started regenning.

 

 

_{for posterity, remember that Shield Gating is currently setup so that you are temporarily invulnerable when your Shields go down, the Duration of which depending on how much of your Shield Capacity had regenned before breaking. however you can partially bypass that invulnerability with a Headshot, where 5% of the Damage will still apply to Health during Shield Gating.}

[Tachmag]

18 hours ago, Sevek7 said:

Of course, doing so hurt the high skill players, but the health of the game-mode improved as a result, so I'm all for it :)

The overall health hasn't improved. In fact, the game is harder for new players because the shield gate encourages fleeing and new players have zero chance of giving chase, due to their poor mobility. Their poor mobility also results in them getting headshot much more easily. 

Meanwhile, the overall gameplay feels much clunkier than before, especially when it comes to automatic weapons. If you run a combo loadout, this clunkiness isn't very apparent but if you don't then it's incredibly noticeable. And combo loadouts where already strong before, now they're just a lot stronger than anything else. 

[KIREEK]

Ah yes, let's address an issue on a soon the be replaced game mode.

Raids were removed and they had a small portion of the playerbase playing them (they also had issues or caused issues for players in other parts of the game), what do you think will happen to conclave with a peak population of 1 at random intervals?

They should focus on something interesting for that section of the liset, because conclave isn't it.

[Aschnad]

We should not forget that sg helps alot against the oneshoot melee, that got introduced with melee 3.0. Befor we remove sg, melee weaopns should be rebalanced.

[Okami_Amaterasu]

On 2020-12-07 at 1:12 PM, Aschnad said:

We should not forget that sg helps alot against the oneshoot melee, that got introduced with melee 3.0. Befor we remove sg, melee weaopns should be rebalanced.

Unless we're talking about Mire and Telos Boltace, as both are very capable of 1 shotting you through shields anyway. Telos Boltace's DoT on spin attacks ignores shield gate, and if they touch you with it you're dead anyway. Mire does far too much toxin damage on slams.

[Aschnad]

When I remember correctly weapons like darksplitsword or the dualswords in general, they could kill you in one spinn. On top of that you can spamm them and they have a high range to land the hit.  Combos from some stances do too much damage and have a knockdown or slow effect on them. Shildgating gives me at least a chance against that. And what about the 100% block? If they just run at you blocking and you don´t have shildgating you are dead.

Mire is a  that ingors shildgaiting. That is why it still can oneshoot you. Telos is in its own league. 

 

Now to my opinion:

 I am happy about shildgaitn to give me some protection against that.  I would prefer not having sg and a blanced conclave, but I don´t think that conclave will  balanced again and that shildgating will be removed.

 

My english isn´t the best. I hope my point is now clear.

 

[Sevek7]

9 minutes ago, Aschnad said:

When I remember correctly weapons like darksplitsword or the dualswords in general, they could kill you in one spinn. On top of that you can spamm them and they have a high range to land the hit.  Combos from some stances do too much damage and have a knockdown or slow effect on them. Shildgating gives me at least a chance against that. And what about the 100% block? If they just run at you blocking and you don´t have shildgating you are dead.

Mire is a  that ingors shildgaiting. That is why it still can oneshoot you. Telos is in its own league. 

 

Now to my opinion:

 I am happy about shildgaitn to give me some protection against that.  I would prefer not having sg and a blanced conclave, but I don´t think that conclave will  balanced again and that shildgating will be removed.

 

My english isn´t the best. I hope my point is now clear.

 

Haha yeah I agree that shield gating is good for preventing melee 1shots. Although, they could have made slide attacks not 1shot everybody, which would be an equally good [probably better] solution :)

[Rubbertubtub01]

Honestly it was a better time dealing with 1 shot slide attacks than constant shield gating on every single player in the match...

[Sevek7]

On 2020-12-13 at 5:46 PM, Rubbertubtub01 said:

Honestly it was a better time dealing with 1 shot slide attacks than constant shield gating on every single player in the match...

Hah! Strong disagree on this. Shield gate is frustrating for sure, but 1-shot slide was infuriating. 

[(PSN)Xx-Ribbium-xX]

shield gating is the only thing holding conclave together at this point