Pvp or the lack there of......

[DatFatTroll]

Lets face it conclave is dead and has been for a long time. I want the rewards but can't find anyone to fight. So how about we kill the current pvp and have a togglable option to have invasions like dark souls. no special builds or nerfs just you doing your thing and someone pops into your mission and you fight. no need for anything else. 

[VisionAndVoice]

29 minutes ago, DatFatTroll said:

no special builds or nerfs just you doing your thing and someone pops into your mission and you fight.

That would be terrible, because it would be a rocket tag, and having certain frames would be aking to having the "I win" button.

It's like you never were on Radiation Sorties and don't know what it's like.

[Artekkor]

I'm afraid warframe's game design won't allow us to have a well balanced PvP fight.
Even in conclave, where mods are removed, the PvP experience is pretty lackluster. Melee knockdown meta is king. Some guns are clearly better than others. Yadi yada...
Warframe is too complex and over-satured with mechanic to have a well-balanced PvP.

Which brings me to a thought i had a day ago. Why not make a PvP where we only play necramechs? Like poor man's "MERCENARIES". Mechs' mechanics are pretty basic, no more annoying bullet jumping, melee knocking and whatever the firearm meta was. So i think a necramech PvP mode could work. Make mechs tanky so it was taking a good 20-30 second of constant fire to kill somebody, rework the skills to make sense in PvP scenario, and vuala.
Add Titanfall's execution mechanic with badass animations and it could be really fun.

...Probably will still die in a week or so either way. But still... Room for thought.

[(XBOX)Skippy575]

Matchmaking needs fixed before any other resources are put towards pvp. Peer to peer matchmaking isn't great. 

[Tyreaus]

4 hours ago, Artekkor said:

I'm afraid warframe's game design won't allow us to have a well balanced PvP fight.

I mean, there's all the never-re-released event modes like Cold Steel and Opticor Only that seem pretty well-balanced just by the "everyone gets the same thing" mechanic. There's also the option of leaning on the arena shooter style and having dedicated weapon pick-ups ala Quake and Doom, where weapon balance can be a little bit looser. Necramechs would be an okay addition _{because 1. I just don't like Necramechs and 2. I don't think chasing after other games has turned out well for Warframe} but one doesn't have to abandon the core Warframe idea in pursuit of balance.

There's also a handful of other "trick" tweaks that could address certain areas. E.g., if aerial combat creates too much of an advantage, then make the entire hitbox count as a "headshot" when in the air, so higher mobility trades off durability. If knockdowns are too strong offensively, grant them longer knock-downs while making the knocked-down player immune to damage for that duration, turning slam attacks to a defensive move instead of an offensive one. So on and so forth.

[Sevek7]

Conclave itself is quite balanced. [Assuming the state of conclave about 2 years ago when a single dev was checking in 1 hour per week, nowadays there are a lot of exploits (due to unintended interactions with subsequent updates) that would be fixed in 5 minutes by a single active dev].

The problem with conclave isn't conclave itself. It's the fact that the Warframe community are a "grind & reward" community. This community is generally totally unaware of how conclave works. For example:

7 hours ago, Artekkor said:

Melee knockdown meta is king.

??? This is not... has not ever... does not exist... there is a mod called anticipation... what even...?

There's nothing wrong with a community based around grind, in fact it's clearly a very successful choice for the devs to make! DE have shown very clearly that it's possible to ignore balance entirely if you simply keep adding more grind. [It makes for a not very satisfying game {to endgame players}, but it works!]

Conclave is of course the only skill-based game-mode (in the sense that every PvE challenge can be trivialized by "choosing the right loadout"), which is not very good for the grind-mentality players who feel like they've gathered enough "stuff" to auto-win their missions. Suddenly there's this conclave thing that cannot be auto-won by item collection! Yikes!

Conclave does have a serious problem aside from that. Warframe's mobility system is simply too complicated! New players will always be dominated by experienced players. I've met players with 2000+ PvE hours who don't know how to change momentum direction after a bullet jump & roll! [hint: slide attack]. This wouldn't be a problem if DE implemented actual matchmaking instead of whatever "recruit conditioning" is [i.e.: current system allows players to remain at low rank with teshin to farm new players forever].

For Warframe PvP to work, there are two important steps: 1) Skill-Based Matchmaking. 2) Shrink the Skill-Gap. [I know every true PvP player's dream is for a high skill-gap game, like Warframe currently is, but it's simply too unwelcoming for new players. It just doesn't work.]

tldr: Conclave needs proper matchmaking and a skill-gap rework to be successful, and DE needs to stop tailoring to "grind-mentality" players with every update. Without that, PvP will not be successful in this game.

 

 

[AFROKI]

Are DEVS even thinking about it?

[CheaseDragon]

On 2021-01-24 at 8:10 AM, Sevek7 said:

Conclave itself is quite balanced. [Assuming the state of conclave about 2 years ago when a single dev was checking in 1 hour per week, nowadays there are a lot of exploits (due to unintended interactions with subsequent updates) that would be fixed in 5 minutes by a single active dev].

The problem with conclave isn't conclave itself. It's the fact that the Warframe community are a "grind & reward" community. This community is generally totally unaware of how conclave works. For example:

??? This is not... has not ever... does not exist... there is a mod called anticipation... what even...?

There's nothing wrong with a community based around grind, in fact it's clearly a very successful choice for the devs to make! DE have shown very clearly that it's possible to ignore balance entirely if you simply keep adding more grind. [It makes for a not very satisfying game {to endgame players}, but it works!]

Conclave is of course the only skill-based game-mode (in the sense that every PvE challenge can be trivialized by "choosing the right loadout"), which is not very good for the grind-mentality players who feel like they've gathered enough "stuff" to auto-win their missions. Suddenly there's this conclave thing that cannot be auto-won by item collection! Yikes!

Conclave does have a serious problem aside from that. Warframe's mobility system is simply too complicated! New players will always be dominated by experienced players. I've met players with 2000+ PvE hours who don't know how to change momentum direction after a bullet jump & roll! [hint: slide attack]. This wouldn't be a problem if DE implemented actual matchmaking instead of whatever "recruit conditioning" is [i.e.: current system allows players to remain at low rank with teshin to farm new players forever].

For Warframe PvP to work, there are two important steps: 1) Skill-Based Matchmaking. 2) Shrink the Skill-Gap. [I know every true PvP player's dream is for a high skill-gap game, like Warframe currently is, but it's simply too unwelcoming for new players. It just doesn't work.]

tldr: Conclave needs proper matchmaking and a skill-gap rework to be successful, and DE needs to stop tailoring to "grind-mentality" players with every update. Without that, PvP will not be successful in this game.

 

 

I started playing conclave a while back when I ran out of other stuff to do in the game, and played enough conclave to get out of 'recruit conditioning'. I stopped playing soon after that because, without being placed with other 'newer players' anymore my matches either contained no-one or some guy who's been playing for eight years that wipes the floor with your face and I make zero standing progress- making the whole experience very unrewarding.

I think a large portion of the problem is that the games can never be balanced in skill because there just aren't enough people playing. This self-suffocates any prospect of conclave getting players because no one plays because no one plays.

I think I heard a while back that there's an unofficial discord or something for conclave players to organise games but its not well advertised and I'm not sure its really on the community to fix the problem. 

I don't think its entirely because everyone in the community has a 'grind only' mentality- there are big overlaps in the player base for lots of different games. 

Personally, I'd just add bots that either come in three tiers or adjust to player skill to pad out lobbies and have like 'extra standing' weekends or something to encourage players. 

[Kontrollo]

19 hours ago, CheaseDragon said:

I started playing conclave a while back when I ran out of other stuff to do in the game, and played enough conclave to get out of 'recruit conditioning'. I stopped playing soon after that because, without being placed with other 'newer players' anymore my matches either contained no-one or some guy who's been playing for eight years that wipes the floor with your face and I make zero standing progress- making the whole experience very unrewarding.

I think a large portion of the problem is that the games can never be balanced in skill because there just aren't enough people playing. This self-suffocates any prospect of conclave getting players because no one plays because no one plays.

I think I heard a while back that there's an unofficial discord or something for conclave players to organise games but its not well advertised and I'm not sure its really on the community to fix the problem. 

I don't think its entirely because everyone in the community has a 'grind only' mentality- there are big overlaps in the player base for lots of different games. 

Personally, I'd just add bots that either come in three tiers or adjust to player skill to pad out lobbies and have like 'extra standing' weekends or something to encourage players. 

Emphasis mine.

Yes, and it was part of DE's partner program, which they replaced with their Creator program (almost a year ago) which doesn't allow any Discords anymore. So that's partly on them, as well.

• easy to remember link: https://discord.me/conclave
• direct invite link: https://discord.gg/0o35sDMUR9RSWTWz
• also had a partner glyph, which is now universal: redeem ConclaveDiscord glyph

Spoiler

 

 

And yes, it's definitely very hard to get into and Recruit Conditioning -- while better than nothing -- just doesn't cut it.

[Loxyen]

On 2021-01-23 at 11:38 PM, DatFatTroll said:

conclave is dead and has been for a long time

while yes the player number decreased since poe launch and the missing dev support, its not dead.

If you have trouble finding lobbies with that unfitting matchmaking system here is a video that could help you:

 

On 2021-04-01 at 12:57 AM, AFROKI said:

Are DEVS even thinking about it?

They actually do. 2020 was supposed to be the year of comming back to pvp, but that was announced before Covid hit the globe and with the following reorganization their plans got discarded since pve is the main focus of Warframe. Atm they have no officially announced plans for approacing it again.

On 2021-01-24 at 3:32 AM, (XBOX)Skippy575 said:

Matchmaking needs fixed before any other resources are put towards pvp. Peer to peer matchmaking isn't great. 

We got the player hosted dedicated servers on pc for several years now... But even if that kinda stuff wasn't within DE's possibilities to implement for consoles, a simple server/lobby browser would bypass the entire issue about not finding active/full lobbies which is caused by the unfitting matchmaking system from pve.

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

On 2021-01-23 at 6:38 PM, DatFatTroll said:

Lets face it conclave is dead and has been for a long time. I want the rewards but can't find anyone to fight. So how about we kill the current pvp and have a togglable option to have invasions like dark souls. no special builds or nerfs just you doing your thing and someone pops into your mission and you fight. no need for anything else. 

That invasion idea sounds fun but not the part of getting rid of conclave.  Conclave isnt the most active cuz the devs do nothing to help it. The devs need to start focusing on it more and make it more enjoyable to a wider audience. 

[WillD4Pill]

I think Warframe should lean hard into speedrunning or platforming challenges/races instead of pvp. I feel like they are better indications of your skill at the overall game, and as long as you have categories for w/ and w/o abilities, they would be fairly easy to balance. Actual players fighting other players is insane with the way abilities and movement work in this game. 

[Loxyen]

On 2021-05-27 at 6:55 PM, ZestyChieftain said:

I think Warframe should lean hard into speedrunning or platforming challenges/races instead of pvp. I feel like they are better indications of your skill at the overall game, and as long as you have categories for w/ and w/o abilities, they would be fairly easy to balance. Actual players fighting other players is insane with the way abilities and movement work in this game. 

therefore DE already implemented a seperated balance system for Conclave, imagine that 🤪

[Tyreaus]

19 hours ago, Loxyen said:

therefore DE already implemented a seperated balance system for Conclave, imagine that 🤪

One that, TBF, is pretty consistently slapped around from PvE bleed-over. _{So there's something to be said about a lower-maintenance mode that wouldn't have that same Achilles' heel}

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

On 2021-05-27 at 12:55 PM, ZestyChieftain said:

I think Warframe should lean hard into speedrunning or platforming challenges/races instead of pvp. I feel like they are better indications of your skill at the overall game, and as long as you have categories for w/ and w/o abilities, they would be fairly easy to balance. Actual players fighting other players is insane with the way abilities and movement work in this game. 

I think trying to get de to promote speedrunning will get u just as far as conclave players trying to get de to work on conclave.  Aka nowhere.  Also conclave is insane with warframes movement.  Thats 1 of my favorite things about it. Gotta have better aim to kill players 

[Jackdarsan]

Yeh it is odd the have a dead mode kept in the game. I guess DE wont touch it since Conclave is not profitable for them. 

Its just annoying seeing my Conclave standing at neutral while the rest are maxed out.   

[Zemo]

I play conclave every day. It's true there are times where I can't find a match, but I wouldn't call it completely dead. I have 50 people on my friends list tagged specifically for conclave, and 40 have been online in the last week. There are a dozen that I play with frequently, and plenty in other regions (EU, Russia, Asia) that I don't have added, but I know they play daily. Not to mention new players coming and going that I don't bother to add. There is even a Twitch streamer that streams conclave 3 times a week for 15-25 viewers, and he has a full lobby most of the time.

I'd say the biggest issues are the fact that the small player numbers are spread incredibly thin. Players are split between recruit conditioning and normal lobbies. That is split further between different regions (NA, SA, EUW, EUE, Asia, Oceania). And finally, those numbers split even further by the fact that there are a dozen different bugs and exploits that can make public lobbies unplayable, which then splits players between public lobbies and private lobbies. I'd say this is the biggest reason. Conclave is somewhat active, but mostly underground and organized through friends list over the public matchmaking, which makes it difficult for new players to find active games.

[WoofyGoldberg]

Il y a 12 heures, Zemo a dit :

I play conclave every day. It's true there are times where I can't find a match, but I wouldn't call it completely dead. I have 50 people on my friends list tagged specifically for conclave, and 40 have been online in the last week. There are a dozen that I play with frequently, and plenty in other regions (EU, Russia, Asia) that I don't have added, but I know they play daily. Not to mention new players coming and going that I don't bother to add. There is even a Twitch streamer that streams conclave 3 times a week for 15-25 viewers, and he has a full lobby most of the time.

I'd say the biggest issues are the fact that the small player numbers are spread incredibly thin. Players are split between recruit conditioning and normal lobbies. That is split further between different regions (NA, SA, EUW, EUE, Asia, Oceania). And finally, those numbers split even further by the fact that there are a dozen different bugs and exploits that can make public lobbies unplayable, which then splits players between public lobbies and private lobbies. I'd say this is the biggest reason. Conclave is somewhat active, but mostly underground and organized through friends list over the public matchmaking, which makes it difficult for new players to find active games.

Absolutely agree with you ! I'm a beginner WF player (french cheese :p ) and every days, after doing somes hours in PvE, I like to play PvP before quit the game. Sometimes, I don't find any players. But I added somes Conclave players in my friendlist, and with that, I always find players. But I think it will be better to have an international lobby with displaying different conclaves game, and players will can choose their match in the different matchs.

They could be filter any games according to players level, country/regions. And DE could make different Conclave's events for the community to discover this part of WF's game (Lunaro, Anniliation tournament).

Finally, the Conclave's community is a hard community for beginners. I think lot of people are benevolent , but not all. And when you're a cheeser or new player, you can be quickly disgusted because it's a really hard game when you're not used to playing like that ! But with perseverance and Teachers players, we get there, and after, it's really cool to play it !