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Is Frost just outdated?


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15 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Name one thing - be it armor stripping, AoE lockdown, target protection, or whatever. No "he can do X and Y with only one ability", because that'll merely be a description of an ability, arbitrarily limited to that ability instead of the frame as a whole. Just a single thing.

I dont think there is any ONE thing he can do that other frames cannot do better,

but he can do a multiple things at the same time that are relatively weaker.

Frost is a moderate skilled generalist in a time of super specialists, and his play style is just not ideal for much of the popular game modes we have now.

But he is still relevant and usable in most content.

I will also need to better understand your "arbitrarily limited to that ability" statement , are abilities not something that are an attribute of the frame?

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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On 2021-06-11 at 11:23 AM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

You can attack my example if you like, but with it only being an example, it is not something I'm going to derail this argument for. Same goes for your tanking argument and any other argument you may bring up. I'm not here to follow along on any derailments or Gish gallops. The request remains.

If you'd rather put forward other arguments one after another, well that just says a lot about the inability to name one thing Frost can do that another frame can't do equally well if not better. I won't stop you from doing that.

I have only shown that your loki argument lacks the accuracy to brush aside my answer. So i must not follow your fish gallops and my answer "AoE protection with unlimited duration" is still valid. 

I mean target protection or aoe lockdown is a specification you have done yourself. Your flimsy loki argument shows how small-minded your opinion about your own challenge is.

Your fear to accept my answer, which is contradicting your belief of the result "challenge" shows only thing.

On 2021-06-11 at 11:45 AM, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Objectively, Frost is functional, but so is every frame in the game. “Functional” should not be the baseline where we decide a frame is in a good place.

That being said, the argument in this thread seems to be stemming over “what single thing can Frost do better than every other frame”? I would say the answer to that is nothing. Defending a stationary objective he’s close, but Limbo is still better.

But with over 45 frames in the game, it’s pretty difficult for every single one of them to have something they do better than all the others. With that many frames you’re just bound to have a ton of overlap in ability function.

So I don’t think that fact alone makes Frost bad, but l am in agreement that he’s outdated. If a frame isn’t going to have a single niche that they do better than all the rest, then they need to have several areas where they’re at least very good. Frost currently has neither.

I know there was a comment earlier in the thread about someone using Frost for all mission types, but I would argue that just because you can clear content with him still doesn’t make him a good or efficient choice for that content. Game is pretty easy, any frame can clear just about any content, so that’s not really an argument IMO.

But again Frost is not up-to-date true but not outdated. Windows XP is outdated because many protocols does not function with XP anymore, but my windows 10 laptop which was updated half a year ago is not up-to-date.

If i separately our 46 frames in top, middle, low tier frost will be not in the low tier

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Personally speaking I think frost works wery well for what he can do, he is one of the easiest frames to use and doesn't need a change. The ease of use is a huge pro on his side to keep in mind in relation to his powers.

His skills have a direct effect on the battlefield, are easy to understand and manage which are all qualities that work great for an early starchart warframe, and still ease of usage is something you may want to have when you want to have a bit of micromanagement but still not need to focus too much into it to be a burden.

His first is excellent to disable an enemy from the battle long enough to dispatch it (EG: Bursas)

His snowglobe is still an excellent area defense, and I prefer it above other options other frames have, even if it may not last too long on higher level maps.

His avalanche paired with the augment guarantees team wide protection and is sufficiently easy to manage, especially now that we have shield gating.

 

If any change for frost really has to be considered I think it should not be in his mechanics. At most it would be a tweak in numbers.

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On 2021-06-11 at 12:09 PM, (PSN)Svenx13 said:

"AoE protection with unlimited duration"

Feel free to put forth something he can do, not an ability description, any time you like.

On 2021-06-11 at 11:45 AM, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Objectively, Frost is functional, but so is every frame in the game. “Functional” should not be the baseline where we decide a frame is in a good place.

Couldn't agree more. I'm happy that I've been able to experience this mess. And while I don't think that every frame needs to have something they're the best at, I at least want everyone to have some aspect where you don't feel like you're playing a worse version of X frame. I made a couple of examples earlier in this thread:

On 2021-06-08 at 1:44 AM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Playing Sevagoth in defensive situations is largely ruined for me since a Gloom-infused Protea just does the same job but straight-up better due to her passive, Dispensary, and Turrets. Another example: my Duality Equinox build has been gathering dust since the Wukong rework, because the latter's so much better than what the former aimed to accomplish that it's not even close to comparable. Still, both Sevagoth and Equinox perform enough in other scenarios that I don't feel like I'm playing a bootleg copy of another frame. I can't say the same thing about Frost.

 

On 2021-06-11 at 1:13 PM, S074 said:

Personally speaking I think frost works wery well for what he can do, he is one of the easiest frames to use and doesn't need a change. The ease of use is a huge pro on his side to keep in mind in relation to his powers.

His skills have a direct effect on the battlefield, are easy to understand and manage which are all qualities that work great for an early starchart warframe, and still ease of usage is something you may want to have when you want to have a bit of micromanagement but still not need to focus too much into it to be a burden.

(...)

If any change for frost really has to be considered I think it should not be in his mechanics. At most it would be a tweak in numbers.

I agree that Frost's ease of use is really nice, and the "rework" I'd want for him is mostly number tweaking, as well as adding / un-limiting some basic scaling. Like, it's strange that the AoE of his 1 doesn't scale with range, and making it freeze all enemies in range wouldn't be overpowered considering that that's basically Equinox's 2 in Night form. Having the damage absorption of his Globe scale with Strength would also be neat, considering that he doesn't have any way to temporarily boost his armor and take advantage of that like Rhino can. Avalanche could use a slight bump in the armor stripping to let it compete with other such abilities, as well as letting the Cold status effect and armor reduction linger for a while after the freeze ends.

I notice that you didn't mention Ice Wave, an ability that's gone largely ignored during this entire thread. With how easy it is to stack status effects on multiple targets nowadays, this is the one ability in his kit that needs a buff that's not just numbers. Big damage boost vs frozen targets or something would be useful and actually create some significant synergy in his kit, while still keeping it very easy to understand.

On 2021-06-11 at 11:46 AM, 0_The_F00l said:
On 2021-06-10 at 9:58 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Name one thing - be it armor stripping, AoE lockdown, target protection, or whatever. No "he can do X and Y with only one ability", because that'll merely be a description of an ability, arbitrarily limited to that ability instead of the frame as a whole. Just a single thing.

(...) I will also need to better understand your "arbitrarily limited to that ability" statement , are abilities not something that are an attribute of the frame?

(Shortening it to that point 'cause in this comment, I've kinda replied to some of the other stuff you brought up.)

Basically, it means that while one could, for example, mention armor stripping or AoE lockdown separately, saying "Frost can do armor stripping and AoE lockdown with only one ability" means that you'd by fiat rule out any frame that can do both those things, but need separate abilities to do so. Mag, for example, can provide AoE lockdown through her 2, but her armor stripping comes from her 3 and 4. In this case, that person could then say "aha, but Frost can do it with only one so he's better". The problem here is that you can choose things that he's supposedly better at that's really just ability descriptions, and not actually things he's doing, thus ruling out unwanted competition. The same argument could be used to make any frame seem good. For example:

"Status immunity and enemy displacement with one ability. Only Hydroid can do that, therefore he's good."

Similar problems arise just from saying "X with one ability", as "area lockdown with one ability" arbitrarily rules out Limbo. The reason I asked for just one thing is also because it's possible to choose two things who in combination is unique to a frame, thus making them seem good regardless of how bad they are. "Status cleansing and enemy displacement. Only Hydroid and Grendel can do both those things. Hydroid's cleansing applies to allies as well, and his enemy displacement is more guided. Therefore, Hydroid's a top frame."

This is also why "AoE protection with unlimited duration" is a cop-out, because it arbitrarily rules out every ability with a duration regardless of whether or not it's indefinitely sustainable during normal gameplay, and regardless of whether or not the AoE protection with unlimited duration lasts anywhere close to as long as a duration-based ability during normal gameplay. Likewise, "aggro diversion with shield health" excludes top tier abilities like Octavia's Resonator to leave Decoy as the sole contender, "therefore nobody does that as well as Loki's Decoy, haha I proved Decoy needs no buffs". It's not hard to see how this would be highly abusable if allowed.

On 2021-06-11 at 11:46 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I dont think there is any ONE thing he can do that other frames cannot do better,

On 2021-06-11 at 11:45 AM, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

“what single thing can Frost do better than every other frame”? I would say the answer to that is nothing.

Because I'm incredibly bored and that other person refuses to put forth any valid thing that Frost supposedly does at least as good as other frames, I'm going to play Devil's advocate and reveal the one thing Frost does equally good, if not better than any other frame: instakilling. It works irregardless of enemy level, health, armor, and shields. It's an AoE. No Helminth ability is needed, no mods are needed. All it takes is a single Viral stack and a single ability cast - Snow Globe. Less setup and better scaling than any other of its kind.

So there you have it. It's not something you're likely to think of when you're pondering what Frost might be good at, because it's not a very Frost-y thing, but that's the one and only thing in which he at most goes unchallenged, at least comes equal. Now, if anything noteworthy comes up, I might reply to it. Otherwise, I'm off to more interesting threads. Cya, folks.

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33 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

(Shortening it to that point 'cause in this comment, I've kinda replied to some of the other stuff you brought up.)

Basically, it means that while one could, for example, mention armor stripping or AoE lockdown separately, saying "Frost can do armor stripping and AoE lockdown with only one ability" means that you'd by fiat rule out any frame that can do both those things, but need separate abilities to do so. Mag, for example, can provide AoE lockdown through her 2, but her armor stripping comes from her 3 and 4. In this case, that person could then say "aha, but Frost can do it with only one so he's better". The problem here is that you can choose things that he's supposedly better at that's really just ability descriptions, and not actually things he's doing, thus ruling out unwanted competition. The same argument could be used to make any frame seem good. For example:

"Status immunity and enemy displacement with one ability. Only Hydroid can do that, therefore he's good."

Similar problems arise just from saying "X with one ability", as "area lockdown with one ability" arbitrarily rules out Limbo. The reason I asked for just one thing is also because it's possible to choose two things who in combination is unique to a frame, thus making them seem good regardless of how bad they are. "Status cleansing and enemy displacement. Only Hydroid and Grendel can do both those things. Hydroid's cleansing applies to allies as well, and his enemy displacement is more guided. Therefore, Hydroid's a top frame."

This is also why "AoE protection with unlimited duration" is a cop-out, because it arbitrarily rules out every ability with a duration regardless of whether or not it's indefinitely sustainable during normal gameplay, and regardless of whether or not the AoE protection with unlimited duration lasts anywhere close to as long as a duration-based ability during normal gameplay. Likewise, "aggro diversion with shield health" excludes top tier abilities like Octavia's Resonator to leave Decoy as the sole contender, "therefore nobody does that as well as Loki's Decoy, haha I proved Decoy needs no buffs". It's not hard to see how this would be highly abusable if allowed.

Ah , so you want the capability of the entire kit to be considered? kinda felt a little too restrictive by how you originally worded it. So yeah , each individual capability (Debuff , CC , Area Denial , support , damage mitigation ) is moderate, there will be frames that can individually excel at each of the attributes as an overall kit.

And Unlimited time area denial is not unique to Frost either. So i haven't really mentioned that.

47 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Because I'm incredibly bored and that other person refuses to put forth any valid thing that Frost supposedly does at least as good as other frames, I'm going to play Devil's advocate and reveal the one thing Frost does equally good, if not better than any other frame: instakilling. It works irregardless of enemy level, health, armor, and shields. It's an AoE. No Helminth ability is needed, no mods are needed. All it takes is a single Viral stack and a single ability cast - Snow Globe. Less setup and better scaling than any other of its kind.

So there you have it. It's not something you're likely to think of when you're pondering what Frost might be good at, because it's not a very Frost-y thing, but that's the one and only thing in which he at most goes unchallenged, at least comes equal. Now, if anything noteworthy comes up, I might reply to it. Otherwise, I'm off to more interesting threads. Cya, folks.

Although Frost is technically capable of insta killing enemies in the right situation by taking advantage of viral , true and obstacle damage , the obstacle damage is very unreliable, i have noticed death by snow globe only a few times even in controlled environments.

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3 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Feel free to put forth something he can do, not an ability description, any time you like.

I'll try to take a hefty bite at this, both more on subjective "feel", but also by a more thorough comparison to other "Defender-wall" abilities, so there's some objective look to it too.

This will mainly just be looking at the wall-like Defender-abilities, not really on each Warframe's entire kits.

So, the subjective part first -> I personally feel that Frost is the easiest defender to use. He has a lot of middleground strengths in almost all aspects of his Snow Globe, making him feel like he's never a wrong and (very importantly) never the weakest choice to bring along to defend any type area. To me, his combination of ease of use along with also being generally friendly to the team, combines into making his Snow Globe my peronal go-to choice when I want a defender of non-mobile stuff.

Now, more objectively -> I think the above thoughts, because I see that Frost's Snow Globe has the following qualities:

  1. Snow Globe is an immediate cast, which can mean life or death
  2. 360 degree bubble means good cover.
  3. It can scale well (due to the initial invulnerability), but requires more attention/staying inside of it on higher levels, due to it otherwise being healthbased.
  4. He can create 4x of these 360 degree bubbles.
  5. It freezes pushes enemies away from the zone on cast
  6. It slows down all enemies inside
  7. Allies can shoot out from it (but not into it)
  8. You can refresh them without needing to remove them first, giving them less "danger to refresh"
  9. Subjective: The size of Snow Globe feels "just right". Even with some range moddability on it, I never feel it is all too obstructive or too tiny.
  10. Can deal MASSIVE damage with its initial cast pushaway, but is environmentally circumstantial.

For other Defender-walls, most of these qualities can be equaled or surpassed, but always at a cost of another aspect of the ability. Let's look at the other Defender skills to compare:

Volt's Electric Shields:

  1. Is also immedaite cast...
  2. ... BUT is not 360 degrees. Frost is better here.
  3. Has pure duration-scaling. This generally means: Better "tanky" usefulness on higher levels, but worse on lower levels (since a single Globe can suffice due to high hp and unliimited duration). Volt generally wins here though, since being better on higher levels is imo a stronger "win".
  4. Volt can create 6x of these shields. Volt wins this utility over all other Defenders.
  5. Has no CC on cast. Frost wins this point.
    • He can push enemies when it is picked up and ran into enemies though. It's still not as potent as Globes, in particular due to Glboes being AoE (and dealing powerful damage as well.)
  6. Does not slow down enemies. Frost wins again.
  7. Allies can shoot through it from ANY direction. Volt also wins this utility.
  8. You can't really refresh shields, but you can spam shields near other shields. Frost is still better here, imo, to a lesser degree.
  9. Subjective: I think Volt's shields are generally too small to easily defend static objectives, unless you place lots of them. But that removes ease of use, and also makes the 6x shields benefit slightly moot. Therefor, I think Globe's bigger size wins as well.
  10. Don't deal damage on their own, but can deal slight damage when combo'd with Shock. Snow Globe's damage has a LOT better scalability though, so Frost wins here, imo.
  11. As mentioned on point 4, these shields can be picked up as frontal shields, which is unique to Volt. This makes Volt AWESOME on for personal defences. Volt gains a unique point.
  12. Another unique aspect of these shields is that it boosts ally damage when shooting through them. This is also unique to Volt, and another point for Volt.

So, is Volt's shields better or worse? Neither. They have differing strengths and weaknesses.

Let's move on.

Gara's Mass Vitrify

  1. Is not immediate cast. Frost wins here.
  2. It is 360 degree's, but does NOT have a roof. Frost wins this, albeit not by much
  3. Has healthscaling, in a more variable sense than Frost's, since it depends on nearby enemies caught by the expanding wall, rather than by any enemy shooting the wall. They are both good in their own rights, but I feel Snow Globe's durability is easier to use in a speedy manner (and more so on repeat uses, where with MV you wouldn't even HAVE enemies inside if you are trying to keep enemies out)
  4. Only 1 instance of MV can exist at once. Frost has a clear win here.
  5. While it doesn't push out enemies, it "freezes" them after a moment. Imo, both are generally on the same strength, but I prefer Frost's globe effect more, personally.
  6. Most enemies can't even ENTER the barrier, and those who were inside before (as mentioned on point 5) are frozen quite quickly. Gara wins here
    • However, enemies who break parts of the barrier and come inside are NOT hindered. A bit of a downside over the Globe, imo.
  7. Allies can shoot through it (with most weapons) from ANY direction. Gara has a clear win here.
  8. You can't not only refresh or repair the current MV (something her #3 could have added as a synergy when put near broken areas, perhaps?), you also have to REMOVE the previous instance before getting a new one. To me, Frost's utility wins here
  9. Gara has variable size on her MV, which gives Gara the win here, imo.
  10. Gara can nuke with her MV. Gara has easier access to damage, but Glove has better scalability. I still think Gara overall wins here though (since it's generally more useable).

So, is Gara's shield better or worse? Neither. They have differing strengths and weaknesses.

Limbo's Cataclysm

  1. Is not immediate cast, even if it is not superlengthy either. Frost wins here.
  2. It is 360 degree's in a spherical manner. This makes it equal to Frost in this regard.
  3. Has pure duration-scaling. As mentioned on Volt's shields, this makes the Globes better for lower level stuff, while Limbo is better for higher level stuff. Like on Volt, this is still moreso in favour for Limbo's Catalysm though - Limbo wins here too.
  4. Only 1 instance of Cataclysm can exist at once. Frost has a clear win here.
  5. Causes a stagger on enemies on cast, which is weaker than Frost's pushout, however...
  6. ... when combined with Stasis, it completely locks enemies from moving. So, generally, Limbo wins the CC point (imo).
  7. Allies can NOT shoot through it from any direction, unless the ally/enemies are Banished. Generally, Frost wins here for me, even if a Limbo can be better in some circumstances (although, his banishing and rift surging is mostly considered an annoyance than a strength, especially in PUGs)
  8. You can't refresh the duration or size without ending the ability first. So, Frost wins here.
  9. Subjective: Limbo's size, while highly moddable for range, generally comes across as a bit too big - but I wouldn't say it generally wins nor loses over Frost here, as there are both benefits (bigger area of defence) and detriments (easier to nullify, or slows down the mission) to both aspects.
  10. Limbo can deal damage with Cataclysm (both via enemies edge-walking on Cataclysm, and via the detonation). Like Gara, it's much easier to use than Frost's Globe, but it doesn't deal nearly as great damage as Gara does. So here I'd say it's circumstantially both a win and a loss (Globe = More notable lategame power, vs Cataclysm = More easy access to damage and far easier for low level killing).
  11. Can be placed from afar, a unique upside to Cataclysm.

So, is Cataclysm better than Globe? Neither. They have differing strengths and weaknesses.

Atlas' Tectonics

  1. Is an immediate cast, if a TINY bit slower to cast than Globes? Equal-ish
  2. Only covers a small area, and always falls down on the ground. Frost wins in the coverage department.
  3. Has very similar scaling to Globe in regards to durability, and likewise has no durability. Generally, they are quite equal (even if Frost's has slightly better base values).
  4. Only 1 instance of Tectonics can exist at once, unless augmented. Augmented or not, Frost wins here.
  5. Has no CC on cast. Frost wins here.
  6. Over frost's continuous slow, Tectonics has enemy obstruction. Arguably, this is a win (albeit weak) for Atlas.
  7. Can NOT be shot through by allies. Frost wins again.
  8. Can not be refreshed unless casting a new one. Frost wins in refreshability as well.
  9. The walls of Atlas are generally considered too small. Frost wins here.
  10. Tectonics deals damage to nearby enemies if the wall is attacked, even if this damage is weak. Atlas wins another weak win.
  11. If unaugmented, can be made into a Boulder for some distant CC/damage - albeit both aspects being very poor. Atlas wins another weak win.

So, is Tectonics better than Globe? No. The strengths that Tectonics have are generally too meager to be considered useful - Frost's Globe is generally better.

There are a couple more defender-wall skills (Zephyr with Turbulence and Nyx with Absorb) but I feel they are too different to be fairly compared.

With that analysis you can see that the Snow Globe is never really the worst in any category:

  1. Cast time - Snow Globe is quick to cast, making it a top choice for this quality (equal to Volt's Shields)
  2. Coverage - It covers 360 degrees, also a top quality for the Globe (only Cataclysm is equal)
  3. Durability - Globe is on the weaker side of things after its initial absorbtion-timer, but Tectonics is still slightly weaker. So it's not the worst. Even so, it and Tectonics has no duration, giving them a niched upside in regards to their sustainability
  4. Quantity - Can have 4 instances, making it second best (only second to Volt's 6x shields). Combined with its size, it can technically win here too (as Volt's shields are much smaller, often needing more instances to cover more area)
  5. CC on cast - Pushes out and freezes enemies, actually making it the strongest in this category (only Limbo can sorta compete, but requires comboing Stasis as well)
  6. Continued CC - Globe has its continuous slow, which is nice. MV and Tectonics blocks enemies off, while Cataclysm hardlocks enemies when combined with Stasis. Imo, I feel the Globe is in the middle of the road here, with reliable slowdown. MV and Tectonics is not entirely reliable, nor do they actually do anything to enemies that pass the blockade (imo this makes them arguably weaker than the Globe), but Limbo has the general win in this category, imo.
  7. Shoot-through - Globe is more on the winning/middle side here: You can shoot OUT but not in. MV can do both, Cataclysm can do both but it's finnicky and requires his other abilities, while Tectonics is the biggest loser here.
  8. Refreshability - Globe wins this one easily, neither needing to collapse previous instances, nor needing to use one of its 4x instances to refresh an old globe.
  9. Size - Globe is in the middle of the road here, with an "always nice" range. MV wins though, due to variable range, and Limbo CAN win IF you want enormous range. Tectonics is dead last, by a huge margin though.
  10. Damage - Globe is can both win (damagepotency) and lose (damage-ease-of-use). This is arguably the most "specialized" component of Snow Globe.
  11. Unique aspect - This could be considered Globe's only true loss; It can't be carried, it can't be cast at range, it can't vary in size.

This to me pretty much shows that Snow Globe is the most versatile, "jack of all trades" defender-wall skill - and due to it being generally the most useful, I also feel it is the generally best Defender-wall skill. In a way, you could say that that is its uniqueness - that it never truly sucks. And with that, I think Snow Globe really doesn't need much tweaking, if at all.

However, if you look at point 5 and point 8, it actually currently has some arguably unique trait-strengths, in being the only truly refreshable Defender-wall, and with the imo best CC-on-cast. If looking at point 10 as well, it has some niche damage-scalability uses too, but I think the other skills do damage more easily, so I wouldn't hold that strenght too high on Snow Globe, personally.

The rest of his kit however, in particular his #1 and #2, REALLY need to be improved, there's no arguement there...

Edited by Azamagon
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12 minutes ago, Azamagon said:
3 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Feel free to put forth something he can do, not an ability description, any time you like.

I'll try to take a hefty bite at this

(...)

This to me pretty much shows that Snow Globe is the most versatile, "jack of all trades" defender-wall skill - and due to it being generally the most useful, I also feel it is the generally best Defender-wall skill. In a way, you could say that that is its uniqueness - that it never truly sucks. And with that, I think Snow Globe really doesn't need much tweaking, if at all.

See, one of the reasons I specified "something he can do, not an ability description" is because, as you yourself state,

15 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

This will mainly just be looking at the wall-like Defender-abilities, not really on each Warframe's entire kits.

It all boils down to what's done vs. by which means it's accomplished, and the fact that the latter is secondary to the former. Frost's ability to place down four Globes means nothing it can't get the job done, so suggesting that as an upside does nothing to answer the question of what he can do at least as good as any other frame. Same goes for "Defender-wall". If some other frame is always better at whatever you're looking to accomplish with a defender wall, then does it matter whether or not it's the best wall? Hardly. It's like not taking Wukong's ability to zoom through a vault faster than it can fail when discussing who the best Spy frame is, just because it's not classical stealth. Or how death is the best CC in any scenario where the enemies are weak enough to one-shot en masse.

I appreciate the time you took to write all that, but it does nothing to answer the request. You don't need to give it another try if you don't want to, and if you do, don't expect me to be around to answer it. Someone else has already bored me with invalid answers and fallacious argumentation to the point where I've answered the request itself and with this, I'm moving on to something more interesting. See you in a more interesting thread.

One thing's for sure though, and I sincerely respect you for acknowledging it in your post.

56 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

The rest of his kit however, in particular his #1 and #2, REALLY need to be improved...

One might think that that's a bar set very low, and I agree with that, but it's a bar that has been set by a good number of Frost defenders in this thread.

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8 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

See, one of the reasons I specified "something he can do, not an ability description" is because, as you yourself state,

It all boils down to what's done vs. by which means it's accomplished, and the fact that the latter is secondary to the former. Frost's ability to place down four Globes means nothing it can't get the job done, so suggesting that as an upside does nothing to answer the question of what he can do at least as good as any other frame. Same goes for "Defender-wall". If some other frame is always better at whatever you're looking to accomplish with a defender wall, then does it matter whether or not it's the best wall? Hardly. It's like not taking Wukong's ability to zoom through a vault faster than it can fail when discussing who the best Spy frame is, just because it's not classical stealth. Or how death is the best CC in any scenario where the enemies are weak enough to one-shot en masse.

I appreciate the time you took to write all that, but it does nothing to answer the request. You don't need to give it another try if you don't want to, and if you do, don't expect me to be around to answer it. Someone else has already bored me with invalid answers and fallacious argumentation to the point where I've answered the request itself and with this, I'm moving on to something more interesting. See you in a more interesting thread.

One thing's for sure though, and I sincerely respect you for acknowledging it in your post.

One might think that that's a bar set very low, and I agree with that, but it's a bar that has been set by a good number of Frost defenders in this thread.

Geez man. I honestly don't even know what you actually want to be argued. Your question is really vague (and arguably nonsensically impossible to answer, if you think about it, because ANY answer will likely have some kind of "ability description" added as part of its discussion) - I gave it the most analytical breakdown of how strengths vs weaknesses one could probably do for Snow Globe vs other similar skills - yet you STILL aren't happy?

So WTH were you even expecting? Could you give me an example?

Actually - if you really want a DIRECT and equally vauge answer to your vauge question; With his abilities he can nuke things and/or CC things from various distances, and defend stuff with his Globe. Wanna get even more direct answers to the direct question? Well, he can also use various mobility skills such as walking, crouching, sprinting, bullet jumping and a few other things. He can also melee and shoot with guns. And he can hack consoles...

You see how silly the question actually is?

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11 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Geez man. I honestly don't even know what you actually want to be argued. Your question is really vague (and arguably nonsensically impossible to answer, if you think about it, because ANY answer will likely have some kind of "ability description" added as part of its discussion) - I gave it the most analytical breakdown of how strengths vs weaknesses one could probably do for Snow Globe vs other similar skills - yet you STILL aren't happy?

So WTH were you even expecting? Could you give me an example?

Actually - if you really want a DIRECT and equally vauge answer to your vauge question; With his abilities he can nuke things and/or CC things from various distances, and defend stuff with his Globe. Wanna get even more direct answers to the direct question? Well, he can also use various mobility skills such as walking, crouching, sprinting, bullet jumping and a few other things. He can also melee and shoot with guns. And he can hack consoles...

You see how silly the question actually is?

Not only did I give Frost-relevant examples in the comment of mine where I fully put forth the request,

On 2021-06-10 at 10:58 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Just a simple request: explain what he can do that another frame can't do equally well if not better. Name one thing - be it armor stripping, AoE lockdown, target protection, or whatever.

but I answered the bloody request MYSELF in the comment two above your previous!

3 hours ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Because I'm incredibly bored and that other person refuses to put forth any valid thing that Frost supposedly does at least as good as other frames, I'm going to play Devil's advocate and reveal the one thing Frost does equally good, if not better than any other frame: instakilling. It works irregardless of enemy level, health, armor, and shields. It's an AoE. No Helminth ability is needed, no mods are needed. All it takes is a single Viral stack and a single ability cast - Snow Globe. Less setup and better scaling than any other of its kind.

You start by (1) saying what he can do, then you (2) explain why you think he does it so well. You don't describe the damn shape of a hammer and leave out the "you hit nails into stuff with it" part!

It's not that bloody hard!

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2 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

Not only did I give Frost-relevant examples in the comment of mine where I fully put forth the request,

but I answered the bloody request MYSELF in the comment two above your previous!

You start by (1) saying what he can do, then you (2) explain why you think he does it so well. You don't describe the damn shape of a hammer and leave out the "you hit nails into stuff with it" part!

It's not that bloody hard!

Alright, I'll give it another go:

First, I actually gave you three things he could do better than anyone else (small or niched as they may be) with Snow Globe alone:

1) He is the only one that can truly refresh his Defender-wall. What this really means in practice is that he can give perpetual defending without giving ANY exposure to enemy fire. Gara's wall first collapses upon recast, and similarly Limbo's Cataclysm needs to be undone before recasted, and the same goes Atlas' unaugmented Tectonics. Sure, Volt and augmented Atlas can stack multiple barriers on top/behind old ones, but since this means you're removing potentially older instances of your barriers, you might expose other positions - something that is likely considering their sizes are far smaller than MV/Cata/Globe.

So Frost doesn't have that exposure weakness. He can refresh an old bubble without any exposure AND without needing to remove old globes to boot.

This IS unique, and it IS a strength that should not be underestimated.

2) He can rather uniquely disperse enemies out from a wanted spot with Snow Globe's cast. Sure, you could Larva/Ensnare/etc on other frames, but not while ALSO placing a defensive structure. It's basicly a guaranteed safety spot upon cast (unless the enemy is immune to the effect - but those kind of enemies are nonsenically immune to all kinds of things anyway). Sure, you could argue that Limbo can do something similar with Cataclysm+Stasis - but that doesn't mean that Frost being capable of doing this as well is bad for Frost, it's good for both Frost and Limbo.

3) He can deal scaling, instakilling damage with the globe too - but you already elaborated on that yourself.

Sadly, his other abilities don't offer anything unique. Even Ice Wave's augment's ice patches, which uniquely are not removed by Nullifer effects, is not something unique to Frost anymore since Ice Wave is helminthable.

 

That said, I'd like to say this:

Imo, since Frost has the capability to create a defensive perimeter which allies freely can shoot out from, and wide CC'ing, with his #3 and #4 alone, makes him arguably the easiest and most "no nonsense" defender in the entire roster, which has a unique appeal. He's extremely straight forward, not complex at all and easy to use for those two roles, unlike other defenders. To compare:

Gara, Volt and Atlas takes time to set up their perimeters. Frost doesn't take time to do so. It's cast - it's done. No nonsense, no fiddling.

Limbo similary can CC and defend at the same time, just like Frost. -But- Frost also lets allies shoot freely out of the globe without ANY fiddling, while Limbo needs to micromanage eligible targets with Banish and/or Rift Surge.

That is basicly all Frost is about: 0 complexity defending and CCing.

Now, don't misunderstand me here: That doesn't mean I think Frost is perfect or anything. Far from it. His #1 and #2 are pretty garbage, and need to have a clear purpose in his kit, and maybe also small tweaks on his #4 could be in order (slightly higher base armorreduction would be nice). But his #3? I find it basicly perfect - almost too good, even - as it is. Do note that this is coming from Azamagon, one of the most notoriously nitpicky forumite you can find in regards to improving Warframes. When threads pop up asking "which Warframes need improvements?" I'm one of the few that always tend to say:

EVERY SINGLE WARFRAME NEEDS POLISHING.

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On 2021-06-10 at 4:02 AM, Zaniel_Aus said:

People are crazy, he's still the best frame in the game even to this day at protecting a single point (other than maybe Limbo). Gara or Khora "do more" for sure but in terms of just providing a shield he does his niche in Defense and Excavation perfectly. There's this bizarre trend at the moment where every frame needs all 4 skills to have 100% armour strip + CC + infinite scaling damage + team invulnerability+ energy replenishment + loot buff or we just can't play it.

nah, Frost is more that one frame that can 100% still be a troll. And its honestly due to his globe working like Limbo's 4 for no reason in the sense that allies can't shoot in. I'd honestly rather have Gara(who is generally more offensive for a defender) & Limbo on defense since they both do the job better. Frost's globe is very outdated at this point which DE could update by making it work like Gara's 4 in the sense allies can shoot enemies within. Like Frost is due for a minor touch up for his 1 & 2

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39 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

That is basicly all Frost is about: 0 complexity defending and CCing.

Yeah, I can agree with that - no other frame does defense and CC with such simplicity as Frost. Press one button and the defense is fully set up. Press one of the others and enemies are CC'd. Particularly regarding the defense, I can't think of any frame that does it with so little complexity. Nice one! And this:

43 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Now, don't misunderstand me here: That doesn't mean I think Frost is perfect or anything. Far from it. His #1 and #2 are pretty garbage, and need to have a clear purpose in his kit, and maybe also small tweaks on his #4 could be in order (slightly higher base armorreduction would be nice). But his #3? I find it basicly perfect - almost too good, even - as it is. Do note that this is coming from Azamagon, one of the most notoriously nitpicky forumite you can find in regards to improving Warframes. When threads pop up asking "which Warframes need improvements?" I'm one of the few that always tend to say:

EVERY SINGLE WARFRAME NEEDS POLISHING.

is a great mindset to have. Even though I love basically every single part of Wukong's new kit, like how well he gets things done and how no build for one ability ruins the usability of another, there is still the exalted weapon balance issue sticking out like a sore thumb. If we got but a single tweak to a single warframe per hotfix, the game would be in a much better spot within a year.

But yeah, as said earlier, I'm off to other, more interesting threads - been in this one so long that it's gone stagnant for me. Looking forward to seeing you there!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2021-06-11 at 7:56 PM, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

I notice that you didn't mention Ice Wave, an ability that's gone largely ignored during this entire thread. With how easy it is to stack status effects on multiple targets nowadays, this is the one ability in his kit that needs a buff that's not just numbers.

Agreed, while thinking about frost, this skill for me represents his "Helminth Slot". In my case I do not use it much if at all.

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Frost is just mediocre. Neither good nor bad: mediocre.

The 1 of it is irrelevant.
His 2 is only useful with augmentation, but that requires spending a mod slot.
His 3 defines Frost. It can be really good, but not in all cases / types of mission.
His 4 is meh. The skill is useful when it comes to armor reduction and the damage can be good at low / medium levels.

On a personal note, the launch animation for his 1 and 4 are absolutely charmless.

Frost needs a rework, it's true, but the same can be said for many (too many) frames. In general and with few exceptions, the general state of skills and frames is lamentable, in line with the general state of the game. Nothing new.

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