Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[festivneer]

1 minute ago, (PSN)RWalls91 said:

I can't agree more,, especially that last line. The whole workshop is illogical, although I think galvanised mods maybe might be a step in the right direction in regards to buffing guns, but there's more work to do.

nah, galvanized mods are the direct opposite direction.
the problem is that the majority of guns simply are incapable of keeping up except for a select few top tier meta ones.
with this, the galvanized mods have two problems:
problem 1: affects all weapons, including the meta ones.
problem 2: non meta weapons are simply unable to kill often enough to keep the procs up.
combined, the issue is obvious:
these mods are a power up only to the meta weapons.
 

[Grummelmonster]

What I'd like to see addressed is how the ones who engaged with the Helminth system from the very start are being punished for it. I've subsumed almost every warframe to unlock their ability and now that you are adding additional ranks to this I can't get any of that XP to make progress. Whereas I would be golden, if I'd just ignored the whole thing after getting it to rank 10. 

Is it not possible to run a script so that people get the xp for the warframes they fed to helminth? I'd agree that getting the xp for everything that we've done might be a bit much but as I already said, I can't redo this EVER so yeah... huge feel bad for me. :/

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2021-06-18 at 5:36 PM, Seorel said:

The level of salt in this thread is insane. Y'all need to chill. The game changes and we adapt, its boring if everything stays the same for too long. I, for one, am excited to try out the changes and see how they feel in game!

Thanks for the info DE. 

Ok so you’re completely fine if DE just nerfs all the things you enjoy using and throws you a mod that’s supposed to “fix” all the stuff you don’t like using but in reality it does nothing?

[Kegnor97]

hace 3 horas, Surbusken dijo:

Is that why they invested all that time into rivens? Because they can't be bothered? If they aren't concerned with weapon performance, what are we all doing here?

I think it's fair to expect the game to be fun and make you want to play it. Based on that, you can do anything with mods, stats, levels and so on, it just has be fun is all.

Mods' level could be MR locked. Certain mods could be MR locked. You could be allowed to have a dynamic skin system. You could be allowed to mod weapons indefinitely behind an insane grind.

There is no one saying base weapon damage, or anything in the whole game has to be anything, it's a video game, in the fantasy genre. Is it fun? Yes/no. Are you going to make it fun? Yes/no.

And that's that.

The mechanics aren't an institutionalized, universal constant stone tablet passed down through generations, envoking the wrath of the gods if you dare change something.

It's just a notepad edit bro, if it doesn't work hit delete.

Warframe used to want to pride itself on pushing forward, taking risk and being creative, what happened to that?

 

The thing about bad weapons stats for me, is people can't play with the weapons they enjoy. Too bad for you that weapon was ruined in notepad.

To me a video game is all about player choice, so it doesn't sit right with me, the game decides on the few weapons you can use. The players should decide which weapon they want to use, not the developers. Artificial powercreep to sell flavor of the month, no thanks.

A weapon took time to create, coded into the game, can earn the game money, adds variety and interest, where you have people who might like the skin, design, sound effect or whatever. What possible reason are you going to offer, to not take advantage of that after the fact? "It's too much work" is that the excuse you are going with?

Go on then, throw them in the trash. Let's just trash everything that's too much to deal with, super philosophy let's see if it pays off for 'em cotton

 

Rather than "too much work" is a thing about the time it would take, time that could be used in making stuff the player base has shown it likes, and as to every weaoon being viable I'll just say that a lot of people would feel scammed if the high level weapons had the same damage output as the starter rifle, and if you really REALLY like a low level weapon that does not perform well on high levels there are always lith/meso fissures you can do that grant the same amout of ducats as high level missions so outclassed weapons still have a place in the game.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

21 minutes ago, festivneer said:

nah, galvanized mods are the direct opposite direction.
the problem is that the majority of guns simply are incapable of keeping up except for a select few top tier meta ones.
with this, the galvanized mods have two problems:
problem 1: affects all weapons, including the meta ones.
problem 2: non meta weapons are simply unable to kill often enough to keep the procs up.
combined, the issue is obvious:
these mods are a power up only to the meta weapons.
 

The characteristic of meta weapons is that they can take advantage of the common multipliers (stance multipliers, multi-shot, elemental damage, Base Damage, Faction Damage) everyone has access to, while also having a monopoly on exclusive multipliers (Critical Damage, AOE, Bleed the health multiplier bypasser) that lesser weapons don't have.

Meta weapons literally sit on top of these extra multipliers like a high rise building looking down on the crit-pples.

Raising the ground doesn't change this fact.

If DE really wants parity between weapons, they need to eliminate these multiplier interactions, but their will be outrage from the player base as it's a nerf harder than the planned nerf to melee right now.

Making Viral procs and Critical Damage additive with Base damage would drastically shrink down the damage inequality almost overnight.

Get rid of enemy armor scaling and Bleed is no longer king, while Gas + Electric might be viable option for AOE for traditionally single target guns.

[PontifexPrimus1]

I think DE really needs to play their own game. And I mean really play - no godmode, no 50 forma inventory, no pre-made "devs only" party with exactly the right composition for each mission. Let them play, and then see how far they get and what the pain points are. And don't let them skip stages! Make them do the whole grind just as they want us players to do!

"But that is unrealistic, they have jobs, after all!" Yeah, guess what - so do we! We don't want to grind for new arcanes for hours on end! We don't want to do endless repeated eidolon captures or acolyte hunts for arcanes and mods that have a 2% drop chance for each attempt!

And I want them to feel the pain when a weapon they have come to love, that they maybe even bought a riven for with hard-earned plat, suddenly is nerfed to the ground with no recompense. Oh, well, maybe they can get two forma for their troubles, that should cover a few weeks of grind, right?

And maybe then they will get an understanding of how the game needs to be played in order to get the maximum out of missions. And maybe they will see how using primary, single-target weapons are currently not the way to do it, and even after this wave of nerfs won't be a valid choice for any kind of player.

[festivneer]

1 minute ago, PontifexPrimus1 said:

"But that is unrealistic, they have jobs, after all!"

their job is literally to maintain the game, which that alone makes this argument fall apart.
it should be their job to play test as a normal player.

[AziSlays]

On 2021-06-18 at 10:38 AM, Aldain said:

...Here we go with the power creep.

So many of those mods/arcanes stack too many times, seriously...30% times 12 on that arcane is just insane...also it will flat out make the Kuva Bramma and other such AoE weapons even more insane, even if you put them behind Steel Path they're obscene.

The Galvanized mods also aren't sidegrades, they're flat out better after ramp up, which is the exact problem you just tried to fix with Condition Overload, especially the Status Chance ones.

Edit: Also while this is all well and good for Steel Path, it just reinforces that the baseline content of the game is intended to be an effortless AoE fest.

DE, I love you guys, but this doesn't solve the Arsenal divide, it just reinforces aspects of it.

You are partly right on the sidegrade bit.
Galvanized Scope is better, but it's capacity is literally double Argon Scope's so it's far less accessible. Sidegrade.
Galvanized Chamber is insane and literally a direct upgrade even down to its capacity being 1 less than Split Chamber. Upgrade.
Galvanized Aptitude is definitely a direct upgrade other than the capacity being 5 higher, but who was really unironically running Rifle Aptitude? Upgrade, but it needed to be.
Galvanized Savvy is the same deal as Aptitude. Upgrade, but it needed to be.
Galvanized Hell is significantly worse at base and isn't better until you get 2 kills but its capacity is 1 less than Hell's Chamber. The requirement isn't hard to fulfill so I want to call it an upgrade.
Galvanized Acceleration feels poorly thought out. Having a variable max range and projectile speed tied to a not that long duration is going to be annoying and I will not use this mod because of it. Also it's double the capacity of Fatal Acceleration. Sidegrade.
Galvanized Diffusion is similar to Galvanized Hell except that its capacity is also 3 higher than it's base mod, Barrel Diffusion. Sidegrade.
Galvanized Crosshairs is exactly the same deal as Galvanized Scope. Sidegrade.
Galvanized Shot is similar to Savvy/Aptitude except its capacity is 7 higher than its base mod, the duration of the bonuses is shorter, and the effect stacks higher. Honestly this mod is the entire reason the Kuva Nukor nerf happened. Upgrade, if you can fit it.

[AziSlays]

A better solution to the Nukor would be just making the chained beams have like -66% status chance. Primer builds run enough Multishot & punchthrough that this nerf really won't affect them much at all. All this nerf really did was make it worse at actually killing things itself.

Also.
Warframe devs: We don't want to nerf melee we want to buff guns!
Warframe devs a week later: So we absolutely butchered melee.

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

Of course they destroy the strongest mods in the game to make guns seem better, even though primaries weren't severely "Underpowered" Heck, I have a Rubico Prime build that can one-shot everything on SP without a riven. That seem underpowered?

[Surbusken]

29 minutes ago, Kegnor97 said:

Rather than "too much work" is a thing about the time it would take, time that could be used in making stuff the player base has shown it likes, and as to every weaoon being viable I'll just say that a lot of people would feel scammed if the high level weapons had the same damage output as the starter rifle, and if you really REALLY like a low level weapon that does not perform well on high levels there are always lith/meso fissures you can do that grant the same amout of ducats as high level missions so outclassed weapons still have a place in the game.

Who would feel scammed for what, over what based on what?

Who said weapons had to have the same stats, who said starter weapons had to be good. You can make stats progression, level, progression, mod progression... time progression, any way you want, any way you have to.

You aren't allowed more than 10 mod capacity until you beat steel path? lol, I mean, you could do anything.

 

I said you could do anything, anything, aslong as it's fun. No one made any conclusions or set up any premise for anything outside that.

According to google:

"Excluding Modular Weapons, there are a total of 491 weapons in the game"

According to overframe.gg there are 28 top tier weapons total in the game. That is 28/491*100=5.7% of the game being used.

Should a game ignore 94% of its own items? Why was it you said, because notepad edits are too much work?

 

Well I figure I could realistically do 1 notpad edit per 20 seconds coasting, with 491 weapons to edit that's 2.7 hours of work, while slacking.

How long does it take to scroll to a box, click the box, type a number and hit enter? Could probably do it in 10 seconds or less, right?

So let's be generous and say you get an entire work day of 8 hours, that will give you 53 seconds to do a notepad edit? Sound good?

Oh but hey look, we have more than one worker in the office, what if we split the task!!!!1

 

I don't think your "too much work" theory holds water is what I am saying. But okay, let's pretend, they haven't had 2.7 hours available, at any time, over the last 4 years. They are that busy.

Then send the weapon dat notepad file to one of the players. I am sure anyone here would be happy to move some numbers around, if the production is that heavily pressed lol.

I can have it ready before the main card for ufc tonight and they won't even have to credit me or pay me.

I don't know what we are doing here waiting years for micro changes in notepad. Do you get paid, the less work you do? Me neither.

2.7 hours is what it should take, while working slowly, to fix the weapon stats. Why aren't we getting it done. What is the holdup.

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

6 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

Who would feel scammed for what, over what based on what?

Who said weapons had to have the same stats, who said starter weapons had to be good. You can make stats progression, level, progression, mod progression... time progression, any way you want, any way you have to.

You aren't allowed more than 10 mod capacity until you beat steel path? lol, I mean, you could do anything.

 

I said you could do anything, anything, aslong as it's fun. No one made any conclusions or set up any premise for anything outside that.

According to google:

"Excluding Modular Weapons, there are a total of 491 weapons in the game"

According to overframe.gg there are 28 top tier weapons total in the game. That 28/491*100=5.7% of the game being used.

Should a game ignore 94% of its own items? Why was it you said, because notepad edits are too much work?

 

Well I figure I could realistically do 1 notpad edit per 20 seconds coasting, with 491 weapons to edit that's 2.7 hours of work, while slacking.

How long does it take to scroll to a box, click the box, type a number and hit enter? Could probably do it in 10 seconds or less, right?

So let's be generous and say you get an entire work day of 8 hours, that will give you 53 seconds to do a notepad edit? Sound good?

Oh but hey look, we have more than one worker in the office, what if we split the task!!!!1

 

I don't think your "too much work" theory holds water is what I am saying. But okay, let's pretend, they haven't had 2.7 hours available, at any time, over the last 4 years. They are that busy.

Then send the weapon dat notepad file to one of the players. I am sure anyone here would be happy to move some numbers around, if the production is that heavily pressed lol.

I can have it ready before the main card for ufc tonight and they won't even have to credit me or pay me.

 

He meant scammed as in, prime weapons or weapons that are locked behind something. So say the Cedo has the same exact power of a Boar not prime, just regular boar. Wouldn't you feel scammed after all that hard work?

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

2 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

He meant scammed as in, prime weapons or weapons that are locked behind something. So say the Cedo has the same exact power of a Boar not prime, just regular boar. Wouldn't you feel scammed after all that hard work?

Wouldn't you feel scammed when you realize you wasted a potato and forma on a weapon you liked early on but it turned out to be MR fodder because a clone exists with +Crit?

[(PSN)RWalls91]

46 minutes ago, festivneer said:

nah, galvanized mods are the direct opposite direction.
the problem is that the majority of guns simply are incapable of keeping up except for a select few top tier meta ones.
with this, the galvanized mods have two problems:
problem 1: affects all weapons, including the meta ones.
problem 2: non meta weapons are simply unable to kill often enough to keep the procs up.
combined, the issue is obvious:
these mods are a power up only to the meta weapons.
 

I did say a start, and did need work. More powerful mods for guns is what's needed, and no matter what this won't change the fact people will stick to the meta guns, because they're good before more power creep. It's sad really.

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

Wouldn't you feel scammed after you put 4 forma and an umbra forma on a melee weapon, whose mods got heavily nerfed?

[Surbusken]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

He meant scammed as in, prime weapons or weapons that are locked behind something. So say the Cedo has the same exact power of a Boar not prime, just regular boar. Wouldn't you feel scammed after all that hard work?

I see.

Yes, that could potentially be an argument. But are the weapons currently stats balanced based on MR? I can't go into the game right now, and find weapons with lower MR, that perform better than higher MR weapons?

It's a theoretical state, we aren't in, because that too of course has also been neglected, but it could very well be true in some alternate dimension where it does exist, it really could.

 

Though not related to anything I have said so far, if we accept the argument from an alternate universe. I didn't say starter weapons should be anything, or not be anything, I never said there should be starter weapons, or that there shouldn't.

 

I said for players's sake, for fun's sake, for money's sake, hell, evne for the sake of developers who spent time adding weapons to the game, people should be able to play with whatver weapon they like.

Then I said I don't consider anything in the game "an institution", meaning something you can't change, the only rule is fun or no fun.

Within those 2 statements I believe it's fair to say you'd have near infinite wiggle room.

 

You can do whatever is needed, aslong as it brings the actual items of the game into play, and, it's fun.

Am I being controversial over here? lol...

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

Wouldn't you feel scammed after you put 4 forma and an umbra forma on a melee weapon, whose mods got heavily nerfed?

That's part of what contributes to the disparity of melee vs guns that DE isn't addressing.

Melee weapons are good after a potato, while guns can still be lackluster after a potato and 4+ forma.

Most players who value their time will just clear Steel Path with melee and no amount of band-aids that require even more investment into guns will persuade them to use guns unless melee gets kneecapped harder, but at that point, players will just quit.

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

Just now, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

That's part of what contributes to the disparity of melee vs guns that DE isn't addressing.

Melee weapons are good after a potato, while guns can still be lackluster after a potato and 4+ forma.

Most players who value their time will just clear Steel Path with melee and no amount of band-aids that require even more investment into guns will persuade them to use guns unless melee gets kneecapped harder, but at that point, players will just quit.

What about statsticks? Warframes like Khora and atlas will definitely be hurt by this.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

I just had a really dark thought.

what if DEs just nerfing melee just to push people to spend more money on platinum to buy rivens that’ll counter the negative effects that these melee nerfs are bringing?

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

4 minutes ago, Surbusken said:

I see.

Yes, that could potentially be an argument. But are the weapons currently stats balanced based on MR? I can't go into the game right now, and find weapons with lower MR, that perform better than higher MR weapons?

It's a theoretical state, we aren't in, because that too of course has also been neglected, but it could very well be true in some alternate dimension where it does exist, it really could.

 

Though not related to anything I have said so far, if we accept the argument from an alternate universe. I didn't say starter weapons should be anything, or not be anything, I never said there should be starter weapons, or that there shouldn't.

 

I said for players's sake, for fun's sake, for money's sake, hell, evne for the sake of developers who spent time adding weapons to the game, people should be able to play with whatver weapon they like.

Then I said I don't consider anything in the game "an institution", meaning something you can't change, the only rule is fun or no fun.

Within those 2 statements I believe it's fair to say you'd have near infinite wiggle room.

 

You can do whatever is needed, aslong as it brings the actual items of the game into play, and, it's fun.

Am I being controversial over here? lol...

Take the corinth for example. You unlock it at MR8. Corinth Prime, MR14. Regular Corinth can still outperform Corinth Prime. The damage is the same, yet the regular Corinth has better fire and reload speed.

[AziSlays]

37 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

Of course they destroy the strongest mods in the game to make guns seem better, even though primaries weren't severely "Underpowered" Heck, I have a Rubico Prime build that can one-shot everything on SP without a riven. That seem underpowered?

Congratulations, you can kill 1 enemy in a single shot. With your magazine of 5 bullets. 

Guess what doesn't need to reload.

[(PSN)WolfieKidd060]

2 minutes ago, AziSlays said:

Congratulations, you can kill 1 enemy in a single shot. With your magazine of 5 bullets. 

Guess what doesn't need to reload.

See? He gets it!

[Hawk1911]

51 minutes ago, PontifexPrimus1 said:

I think DE really needs to play their own game. And I mean really play - no godmode, no 50 forma inventory, no pre-made "devs only" party with exactly the right composition for each mission. Let them play, and then see how far they get and what the pain points are. And don't let them skip stages! Make them do the whole grind just as they want us players to do!

"But that is unrealistic, they have jobs, after all!" Yeah, guess what - so do we! We don't want to grind for new arcanes for hours on end! We don't want to do endless repeated eidolon captures or acolyte hunts for arcanes and mods that have a 2% drop chance for each attempt!

And I want them to feel the pain when a weapon they have come to love, that they maybe even bought a riven for with hard-earned plat, suddenly is nerfed to the ground with no recompense. Oh, well, maybe they can get two forma for their troubles, that should cover a few weeks of grind, right?

And maybe then they will get an understanding of how the game needs to be played in order to get the maximum out of missions. And maybe they will see how using primary, single-target weapons are currently not the way to do it, and even after this wave of nerfs won't be a valid choice for any kind of player.

This guy gets it 100%.  Too many developers now a days are just artists and programmers but not enough player.

[Surbusken]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)WolfieKidd060 said:

Take the corinth for example. You unlock it at MR8. Corinth Prime, MR14. Regular Corinth can still outperform Corinth Prime. The damage is the same, yet the regular Corinth has better fire and reload speed.

Isn't that arguing against the alternate universe point?

Hadn't they said, weapons were balanced on MR, now you are saying they aren't?

 

But after you wrote that I remembered people had also said riven dispositions sometimes make regular versions better than prime versions, which is another "damage balance" problem they also didn't deal with, along with all the others, AOE vs singleshot, damage types and all that.

Yes we got problems. This whole thread is a long list of all the problems they haven't and aren't dealing with. Riven dispositions, sure add it, lack of struture based on MR? Yep, that too.

[FepoCg]

Actually I really don't understand DE at this point and I think I will never would, instead of butchering melee on SP it was way easier to buff already existing mods, like Serration for example, if you want primary weapons actually working on SP, why not just take Serration and add it a secondary effect, for example.

Serration: 165% Damage (400% on Steel Path)  The % us just an example but is way better than add Arcanes and new mods, that most of them trigger the effect ON KILL where in SP mob is basically sponge bullets, not to mention all this new stuff you actually have to farm it on SP so thanks DE? for making us grind a game mode that most people doesn't even like? and this time is gonna be even harder with all the nerfing =l!!   I don't even want to imagine all the millions of credits and endo you would need to fully upgrade them btw.

Also doesn't adress the main problem here, still you would see just a few primary weapons that actually will work on SP if all this actually works in the end, and normal weapons like a braton prime for example would still not do any damage at all to the enemies in SP.