Dev Workshop: The Arsenal Divide

[(XBOX)CFG SatanDevil]

Also this way.

kill with ur nerfed melee to activate arcane PRIMARY DEXTERITY for max  360 % Damage on your primary….. 

With this buff maybe u can kill a enemy with your primary to trigger the galvanized mods? 
 

 

[Lokime]

I can get over the nerfs... even the glaives nerfs just after you buffed them.... but please, make galvanized mods and new 'arcanes'  actually useful? 

•  14 points on a mod that is virtually worst than it's normal version is... questionable.
  • Primary and secondary weapons have many primed mods and nowadays you can't fit them all even with a fully forma'd and potatoe'd weapon. How am I supposed to put another 14 points mod there? 
•  ON KILL mods are HORRIBLE on high level (aka steel path) missions... how am I supposed to proc any of them if my weapon is, initially, worst than it was before
• Can you please unlock all arcane slots on release... primary and secondary weapons already have OROKIN CATALYST; EXILUS ADAPTER; FORMAS.... screw that, make them LIKE STANCES FOR MEELES TO FIX THE FACT THAT WE CAN'T EVEN FIT ALL MODS ON THEM...
• 6 arcanes... when 3 are the same, why?

Overall, the only thing that's going to happen imo is that meele weapons are still going to be the most useful and meta weapons on high level content because you're locking the primary and secondary "buffs" behind:

• An arcane slot that we have to open and offers nothing to fix the lack of space on primary and secondary
• 6 arcanes that we have to farm 10 times each to max when 3 of them are the same...
• Mods that are initially worst and can't be stacked on high levels

 

[NeXu5]

Will berserker fury trigger on combo make more sense?
it will not struggle to get the buff on kill
and not easy as now just a slash reach max buff

[MonsterOfMyOwn]

quickfix :

 

MERCILESS
+100% Ammo Max
On reload : +180% Damage for 6s.
On Kill: +100% Reload Speed.

DEADHEAD
+30% to Headshot Multiplier.
On Headshot Hit:
-50% Weapon Recoil
30% chance of getting 60% Damage for 24s. Stacks up to 6x. (chances x2 if rate of fire below 3)

[Oorel]

9 minutes ago, Lokime said:

Can you please unlock all arcane slots on release... primary and secondary weapons already have OROKIN CATALYST; EXILUS ADAPTER; FORMAS.... screw that, make them LIKE STANCES FOR MEELES TO FIX THE FACT THAT WE CAN'T EVEN FIT ALL MODS ON THEM...

I'd really prefer slots to be open by default as well, following previous behavior. Its a bit sad that these changes are all behind a lot of grind, I don't mind that generally, its why I'm here to an extent, still, compared to the last big melee rework there was a lot of upgrades and changes you just got right away, mostly stat boosts to your old weapons, but also changes to mods you already had, felt better in my opinion. because so much of this is behind a grind, a pretty substantial one, releasing alongside of new liches btw, its going to take a long time for people to see if this will really work at all. 

This would have been an ideal thing to run a testserver for, even to simply reduce backlash because people get to test it out and find out what I expect to be the resolution here, that not much has actually changed.

13 minutes ago, Lokime said:

6 arcanes that we have to farm 10 times each to max when 3 of them are the same...

let me tell you about rank 5 arcanes. thats what they are :) 126 arcanes to farm for the full set. I imagine that there are 6 because we have 6 Acolytes, maybe they have a guaranteed drop each.

[(XBOX)CFG SatanDevil]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Oorel:

I'd really prefer slots to be open by default as well, following previous behavior. Its a bit sad that these changes are all behind a lot of grind, I don't mind that generally, its why I'm here to an extent, still, compared to the last big melee rework there was a lot of upgrades and changes you just got right away, mostly stat boosts to your old weapons, but also changes to mods you already had, felt better in my opinion. because so much of this is behind a grind, a pretty substantial one, releasing alongside of new liches btw, its going to take a long time for people to see if this will really work at all. 

This would have been an ideal thing to run a testserver for, even to simply reduce backlash because people get to test it out and find out what I expect to be the resolution here, that not much has actually changed.

let me tell you about rank 5 arcanes. thats what they are :) 126 arcanes to farm for the full set. I imagine that there are 6 because we have 6 Acolytes, maybe they have a guaranteed drop each.

We have a 100% arcane drop chance, that means we have to kill a minimum of 126 Acolytes, in reality around  400-800  Acolytes to get a R5 of all arcanes 

That means 400-800 acolytes kill  all 5minutes. …..

2000-4000minutes …. around 33-66 hours 

+ the new kuva and granum liches…… 

a lot to grind 

[martin19735]

Change the gun arcanes to be positive mods like stances and auras, modding guns is already a huge forma grind, adding the galvanized mods with their high drain will break this even more, the reason melees are better is also because they have more modding capacity, this would really help close the gapn also everyone hates farming and fusing arcanes.

Also the condition overload cap is bad, just lower the value, some ennemies need the multipliers to be killed within a reasonnable time, not counting the fact that the kuva nukor becomes plain trash since its advantage was its ability to spread high amounts of differents status, and it discourages diversity in elements when building, all will become viral. overall i think the cap is the worst idea from the workshop, the rest is good and has a lot of potential with refinement

[cha0sWyrM]

so were all going nuts over the coming changes to melee....and theres lot of discussion about it already. im not going to say a whole lot...except for this.

de has made a bold claim that is very obviously a complete and utter lie.

"We want Melee to be fun and powerful as you rip and tear your way through the solar system but we want players to have that same level of fun and power with Primary and Secondary weapons should that be their preference."

"...that same level of fun and power"

"SAME"

 

if that statement were true....all they had to do to correct this issue was to make more/better primary and secondary mods....thats it. IF that statement were true...there would be absolutely ZERO reason to have any nerfs to melee at all whatsoever. all they need to do is bring primary and secondary weapons up to the level of melee.....but thats not what they are doing.

so why lie about it?

and lets not even get into the fact that they make this ridiculous claim in the same post as they tell us how they are nerfing everyones favorite secondary weapon. so which is it de...you want us to feel like our secondary weapons are really powerful....or not....because, call me crazy but, i dont think nerfing the best weapon in the game is how you make it feel powerful.
 

these nerfs look just terrible....and everyone is going to hate them.

so much for fun and power eh?

[Loza03]

There's two good reasons DE doesn't just buff everything.

The first is, quite frankly, that it's more work for the same or less output. They'd need to buff all the mods or guns, and then probably they'd need to buff enemies as well because they're no longer designed for the power scale the players are on.

The second is that  Warframes multiplication-based mod system benefits stronger things more than weaker things. So, every buff they do makes every subsequent buff and nerf larger in scope. 

[Surbusken]

2 hours ago, Kegnor97 said:

...

So if I order a double whopper, it means it didn't come off the assembly line, because me, I, personally ate it?

What if all games are corporate and generic, which is what was said, how then, would it be possible to go play something that wasn't?

 

4 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

...

No, it should be balanced towards 'fun' and being engaged with.

If people aren't playing it, there is something wrong with it. That's really the only concern in a video game, in so far as quality of gameplay.

Why would you add an item, for people to not play with it?

 

I did the math last night, it should take around 2.7 hours to edit every single weapon in the whole game in notepad, based on 30 seconds per notepad edit.

If you planned to walk backwards to Poland, and do the notepad edits on a PC over there, then sure, that might take years.

 

Which was said humorously to make fun of the nerf mentality, strictly working in notepad, that "blank numbers in notepad" are, naturally, not enough to repair the gameplay.

But if that had been true, then yes, it would take 2.7 hours to get every weapon in the whole game working. Archwing and modular not included.

 

I then mentioned metal gear solid, as a rather terrific, by not random example, since artwork, concept and gameplay are similar.

That's a game from1998, I guess, 4 generations old, lol, that basically demonstrates how to create a video game.

In short, every item is a tool that connects to gameplay features, that can't do the same jobs.

So instead of having 4 hammers, you have a wrench, a saw and a screwdriver.

The game even went so far as to mock superficial video games, in literally using a cardboard box, as a tool for meaningful gameplay in meta commentary on its own genre.

You could learn to love a cardboard box, if the gameplay supports it, is what we found out that time. The item itself is nothing without justification by gameplay connection.

 

Simply to say, no it wouldn't be enough to change numbers around in notepad. You need to have a conceptual purpose that connects item and gameplay.

Which yes, is usually done in pre-production but this is where we are at now, so we are having the conversation now instead.

 

The situation I am talking about, is watching kuva nukor be granted powercreep to sell liches, then get nerfed once it was time to sell the next flavor of the month with corpus liches, while ignoring the whole rest of the weapon's list, including conceptually, gameplay, and mechanics such as damage types etc etc.

 

Changing the numbers of kuva nukor in notepad, when it was time to sell something else, is not acceptable behavior.

Then trying to pass it off as some giant gameplay improvement... lol @ that.

 

[(XBOX)Lady Ukita]

It's funny because the nerf to melee is hardly going to make them any weaker, and Kuva Nukor reached Catchmoon levels of power so a nerf wasn't surprising at all. To be frank, you're overreacting.

[cha0sWyrM]

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

There's two good reasons DE doesn't just buff everything.

The first is, quite frankly, that it's more work for the same or less output. They'd need to buff all the mods or guns, and then probably they'd need to buff enemies as well because they're no longer designed for the power scale the players are on.

The second is that  Warframes multiplication-based mod system benefits stronger things more than weaker things. So, every buff they do makes every subsequent buff and nerf larger in scope. 

i didnt say to buff everything and none of that is relevant to my post anyway.

my post is bout the supposed reason for the nerfs....not the nerfs themselves. de has made the claim that they want primaries and secondaries to feel as powerful as melee ALREADY feels. none of the supposed buffs to guns will do that...and all they are really doing is making melee worse.

[Professor_Aggressor]

In the video, Primary Dexterity shows a +7.5s combo duration.  Is that going to be a stat on the finished arcane, and is that going to increase melee combo duration or sniper combo duration?

[alseltas]

Regardless of how much stat those new mods have, guns that have neither decent crit nor decent status chance like TIgris Prime keep underwhelming thanks to multiplicative system. Reworking shotgun status formula was big mistake. 

[Fortifiante]

The mods and arcanes won't work. Period.
First of all, the new mods are just a bit more fancy than the bs (sorry for the wording) mods we first got to see when they leaked - meaning "unequip meele for 300% more dmg". We all knew those 300% dmg wont do anything at all and thus were upset.
Now it's basically the same, just on a different condition. Kill sth to gain 360% dmg (30% x12). Sry but we aren't THAT stupid. Adding arcanes which do the same doesn't change anything. The added stats like + reload or sth are a nice idea, but that doesn't solve the general problem.

Now let's imagine:
You go to steelpath. You take a rifle and maybe, MAYBE you get along decently with it for the first couple of enemies (altho it is already hard for anything thats not a saryn/octavia/Khora etc to keep up the killspeed to not just run around and look for lifesupport bc it's running out, and that's while still heaving op meele and a relatively high killspeed bc of it).
The buff lasts 6s (at least on some mods). So maybe you can kill enemies with your rifle decently and you manage to get the buff fully stacked. 
Then you stop shooting bc you need to find a lifesupport so you start searching while facing lvl 1000 enemies (i'm being unrealistically optimistic here you'd even get that far).
Your 6s buff is long run out. And without any of the buffs going on, with the rifle at a state that it is RIGHT NOW, against lvl 1000 steelpath enemies, you do what? unload a 200 magazine to get your first stack of 30% for 6 seconds? Sorry, but it would take another 10 seconds to kill one enemy with this small buff AT LEAST, so your buff runs out.
I dont need to explain the other issue of killspeed here.

And if you're now like "but yeah for lower level content" bla bla, noone cares. Those nerfs/buffs/reworks were specifically aimed at steelpath. 
A "On Kill" condition is utter nonsense and won't fix anything, guns will still not do anything in SP.

[(XBOX)CFG SatanDevil]

In non SP missions the arcanes and mods will work and u will hit like truck…… clear the whole mission with 1-2 shots 😊

normal missions will become very boring when a lot of tennos clear the map with a one shot 😂 using the arcanes and mods 

but…. u need this arcanes and mods in SP…..and there u will not be able to trigger and use them constantly…. 😡

And so u must play with ur nerfed melee …. great 

 

[MobyTheDuck]

Ok, another hot take.

How do you guys expect these 'on kill' mods work on Steel Path, where we are struggling to get kills with guns, when we are sacrificing slots for these mods that give us LESS POTENTIAL DAMAGE?

[Danny99s]

If the new mods have additive value that cant be stacked with the ones existing today, then they are trash. We already have 2 serration mods (serration and heavy cal) that are not used together because faction mode will result in a greater damage value. Damage numbers won't change much for weapons.

[DebrisFlow]

On 2021-06-19 at 7:19 PM, Aldain said:

On 2021-06-19 at 6:52 PM, Bathynomus said:

Here's an radical idea. Instead of nerfing anything at all, why not bring the other weapons on their level?

I'll concede to this the moment somebody figures out how to make semi-automatic rifles compete with something like a Kuva Bramma in any meaningful way without just making it into another AoE weapon in some fashion.

Designing new game modes (or re-designing existing ones, maybe SP only) in such a way that indiscriminate killing is penalizing instead of rewarding. Forcing precision gameplay in the mission objective itself. i.e. (just an extreme example) a "selective exterminate" where killing only a specific unit type contributes to the mission counter while murdering all of the others decreases it; 

I see no other way to make single target weapons a relevant choice outside of a purely detached (and futile) exercise of aim. But on one hand such a design would just multiply griefing potential, misunderstanding, elitism and toxicity. On the other hand players would lament that this is against their power fantasy. And looking at the design of all of the game modes that DE labelled as "new" in the past 4 years, i have no hope for what i propose.

[CanOfCraig]

I like a good deal of the direction war-frame is heading with the changes. But I feel like rather than this being a fix to a problem, it shines a spotlight on other issues the game has had for a long time.

This seems to be a change that will be a slight razor thin nerf to melee at the low end, while more or less ruining the day of a good few builds for later game setups (This isn't necessarily a bad thing) Doing so should in theory open up more of a push towards guns being more than just stat pushers for condition overload.

Glaring issue The idea of adding more mods on part with 'prime' and 'umbral' mods to give power to primary and secondary weapons is all good and dandy. in fact I love the idea, It overlooks the fact that primary and secondary weapons have less capacity than melee weapons. Without an increase in capacity this seems like a massive oversight that we the players are then forced to make up for by using non-maxed mods in some places, and needing to spend more forma than we typically wold be required to. Please fix this issue at least so that we can actually enjoy some of these really expensive builds we're being expected to use to fill the damage gap. previous changes to primary and secondary weapons was to add an exilus mod slots - But those mods still cost capacity. as it stands primary and secondary have already been more expensive to kit out, They haven't had the damage/ kill efficiency to compete in high end, and have low flexibility in builds to even get them to a point where they might land a kill.

Another issue I take with these new gun mods is that they start below their non Galvanized counterparts. So if I want to get to a point where I would have a stronger gun than I would with non primes, I first need to get a kill with a (for lack of a better way to see it right now) nerfed version of the gun. Why can't these mods start at the same level as their standard counterparts and then work up to the same intended strength? If I were earning these mods for situations below steel path it would make sense, but because these are meant to replace at standards where the current mods aren't able to get consistent damage in some situations to even be considered using, this feels like an oversight aswell. To put this in an example situation: I'm playing steel path alone, and get over run causing me to die, loosing all of my built up stacks, be it from death itself or time reviving. Now I'm actively getting shot at and need to get a kill that takes more than a whole magazine from my gun in order to get my strength back up to a level where I can even compete. Fun is lost because now I'm going from a speedy fun killing game to trying to duck and cover in a game play mode where you tend to be surrounded at all times. 

In this situation the punishment for a misplay has just been magnified for the sake of melee being too popular.

I do also take a good issue with the crit chance mods being Scope, and Crosshairs. This could be just a personal thing, but I find aiming to be one of the last things I want to do when engaging multiple enemies. This only seems to serve more into the idea of making -zoom rivens even more valuable than they already are. I would love to see them be something more along the lines of "Galvanized scope 120% Critical Chance. On Headshot Kill +40% critical chance for 12s stacks up to 5x" This keeps the mod useful if you don't have the buff (it does nothing unless you get a kill as is currently) while also not forcing players to aim with guns they wouldn't want to aim with. A similar change to Argon scope would be welcome as well, and I'm sure no one would miss being required to aim. I would love to see the mod rule out using Point Strike all together as well so we can have more flexibility with gun builds because currently I'm sure it's well documented that there is extremely low flexibility when it comes to gun builds - and I would love the room to slap in that new status mod where in every other case I would not uses a raw status chance mod on a gun.

Edit:
I think Warframe Energy generation should be looked at as-well because there are a good few weapons that have use as 'Tools' for this issue. I feel like it would be a boon to everyone if all warframes that used energy just had a baked in Regen stat that we could amplify with energy siphon, rather than it being the only way for new players to generate it without orbs. I feel like a need for Rage, or Hunters Adrenaline should be a bonus option. Though I do think Arcane Energize has a good place being a way to generate bonus energy when channeling abilities.

Focus on systematic issues like this would help in smoothing out the weapon strength and make even more opportunity for interesting builds, and play-styles.
 

Second Edit:
Impact Damage. Had a thought of how it could actually have some impact that players might care about?
What if impact damage increased physical damage up to say 10% to 15% at maximum stacks? It's nothing crazy, but as it was put to me "impact damage is just there to look pretty" Changing it's effect on VIP targets might be cool and all. But for everything else in the game it does absolutely nothing. Lich's, Thrall's, Acolyte's, Boss's, and every other enemy in the game doesn't even know impact exists, because it more or less does nothing. Having Impact do something to impact the rest of our damage kits would greatly improve the disparity between melee and guns since many guns have impact. We even have Primed Heavy Trauma doing absolutely nothing when it comes to standard play.

[EpicWARthog123]

Melee will still be best by a longshot because of weeping wounds. Any secondary that has a low status chance will still deal piss-poor damage to high level grineer, and many secondaries will still be status slaves for primary/melee. Also, most guns are purely single target damage, which is where melee really overtakes guns. I can kill an enemy pretty quickly with a gun right now, but if I used melee, I could kill the whole horde in the same amount of time.  If I were to compare the slash output of a Pyrana prime (which is mastery rank 13 btw) to the Ether daggers (master rank 6) with Weeping Wounds, the Pyrana looks like a chump. How is a 20% status chance gun supposed to be nearly as effective as a melee with the same chance? Status effects account for a lot of the damage you deal to enemies at high ranks, and with primaries having pitifully low stats and status chance mods in comparison to melee, they still won't be able to compete.

[Tigercloud]

I think the thing I'm most disappointed in with this set of changes is that the "fixes", galvanized mods and the new arcanes, are plain unimaginative. Solving the problem of weak weapons with straight damage increases, that are done on kill (as noted, this is a big problem for ramping up) isn't just problematic, it's boring. As a first sketch of the concept, this is a good start. But if this is what makes it to the final implementation, then we're going in the wrong direction.

None of these things actually jive with DE's stated goal, to cater to player's playstyles and strengthen them. They're all just one thing; more damage. We can do much better.

Why aren't the primary/secondary arcanes giving us cool procs like the Kitgun and Zaw arcanes? I can think of a different design structure straight off the bat that would be much more interesting; creating P/S arcanes according to these categories: Special Procs, Debuff Procs, Buff Procs, and Warframe Enhancers.

1. Special Procs would be things like the Pax Seeker and Residuals, that create special effects from the chosen arcane.
2. Debuff Procs would increase the damage various damage types deal to enemies on hit, or make them more vulnerable to proccing a status effect.
3. Buff Procs would be similar to these newly proposed arcanes, but rather than being straight damage increases, they would offer buffs based on the differences between weapons. As Rebecca says, "there are pinpoint accuracy guns, AOE guns, and high fire rate Guns (and everything in between). There’s reload times, magazine sizes, and more." Okay, then! Here's a few arcane examples that would actually play to these differences:

• Arcane Rattler: On Hit, has a 10% Chance to Increase Fire Rate by 60%, and Increase Ammo Efficiency by 80% for 6s. (Made for high fire rate guns.)
• Arcane Pace: On Headshot, Reloads 40% of Magazine and Increases Damage by 60% for 12s. Stacks up to 3x. (Made for semiautomatic rifles.)
• Arcane Eye: On Headshot, Increases Headshot Multiplier by 30% for 24s and Reduces Weapon Recoil by 10% for 24s. Stacks up to 6x. On Headshot Kill, deals 50% damage to all enemies in 6m. (Made for sniper rifles and bows)
• Arcane Spread: On Hit, has a 5% Chance to Increase Multishot and Status Chance by 20% for 10s. Stacks up to 6x. On Kill, Increase Fire Rate by 50% for 3s. (Made for shotguns)
• Arcane Punisher: On Hit, has a 5% Chance to Increase Crit Chance and Crit Damage by 15% for 10s. Stacks up to 6x. On Kill, Increase Damage by 50% for 3s. (Made for shotguns)
• Arcane Slayer: On Melee Kill, Increase Holster Speed by 200%. Also Increases Crit Damage by 100% for 20s.
• Arcane Chaos: On Melee Kill, Increase Holster Speed by 200%. Also Increases Status Chance by 200% for 20s.

       4. Warframe Enhancers would buff Warframe powers and stats, allowing players who focus on abilities to use primaries and secondaries to accentuate their playstyle. They would do things like increase ability strength or range on kill, or increase Warframe HP or armor on hit, while stacking. Or just straight up heal the Warframe.

My other problem is with there being Primary and Secondary arcanes which are just duplicates of each other. I can understand introducing filler to "give players a goal to work towards", but ultimately that's just window dressing. The truth is its clunky design. Either have them work on both Primaries and Secondaries, as Kitgun arcanes currently do, or make them actually damn different!

I think the best part of this framework is the potential for expansion down the road. Giving us arcanes for all guns that we can install is a good idea. More arcanes can be added in time, and if they are interesting and fun, rather than straightforward and boring damage increases across the board, this system could become really exciting and help diversify players loadouts. But this current iteration is NOT that.

[SephirothWS]

  

20 hours ago, Lutesque said:

And Galvanized Scope/Crosshairs are the only 2 that Function without Requiring Kills

Come again?

Every. Single. Galavanized Mod here ALL have effects locked behind kills, whether its normal kills, or HEADSHOT KILLS like Scope/Crosshairs.

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

"On Kill" mods are very impractical at higher levels due to the bullet spongy nature of most enemies, so...Strike one.

The vast majority of the Melee stance animations are garbage overall. Their impracticality will be reinforced further by the lack of stackable attack speed mods. You're essentially killing heavy weapons with this change. Strike two.

We aren't embracing some mechanical changes to enemy weak points, we aren't going with a universal combo counter for all weapons, we aren't buffing the weapons with abysmal stats & we aren't improving the modding capabilities of our weapons in the slightest. Strike three.

Try again in another half-decade, because that's how long we'll have to wait for any meaningful changes at this rate. Can't spell disappointment without DE.

[Hixlysss]

With all this happening, I truely hope you don't as long to correct the divide between primary and secondary weapons as it took for you to address the gap from guns to melee. Secondary weapons have much better mods than primary weapons while having a lot of the same, if not better, stats. And shotguns as a whole could use some love in the mod department.