Is Corpus Vs. Grineer PvP (Based on the New War) a Good Idea?

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

2 hours ago, ssh83 said:

It's a great spin-off idea.

But 99% of the people who fund this game are not going to play PvP.  

Idk about the numbers around that, yeah some may not be interested into PvP at all but even I who doesn't play PvP in general much would be interested into it. So yeah a Battlefront styled game like this is surely something I'd like to give a go. Even better if it also has a story mode.

The WF universe is interesting and has potential for spin-off games. Like how about a Dead Space alike game where you play as a Corpus or Grineer trying to survive on a infested ship.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

43 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

People will start finding out problems after it's actually a thing. To start with, armor vs shield, weapon types, character hitbox

 

36 minutes ago, EmberStar said:

"Corpus are too easy to headshot, and Grineer Lancers have that big backpack thing that makes it actually impossible to headshot them from behind!  Unfair!  I demand nerf!"

These are valid concerns. The factions being so different does make it hard to keep them on the same level as one another. Obviously it'd be better to address those issues after developing the full thing, but here's how I'd try to solve those:

Armor vs. Shields is tough to get around, as shields would be vastly more powerful due to shield gating and regenerating EHP. You'd have to either readjust how shields and armor work to make them effectively the same, give both sides access to armor and shields, or remove armor and shields entirely. I'd personally be in favor of giving everyone access to shields and armor. Certain Corpus enemies have armor (such as Oxium Ospreys), so it's not a huge leap to give Grineer access to shield technology.

I've touched on weapon balance somewhat with my suggestion of balancing weapons differently from PvE Warframe with the goal of making faction weapons mirrors of each other. If we're only staying with the default classes, there should only be small differences after making the necessary adjustments. If more classes are to be implemented (I'll probably make some up for fun), then weapons would have to be exclusive to classes and be used to balance the whole class.

Hitboxes are difficult. Grineer shield their heads a lot, while Corpus are naturally slimmer. The solution I can think of is to give the Grineer Lancer the model of a Shield Lancer or the Drekkar Elite Lancer (recolored). These models are about as slim as the Corpus Crewman, and have their heads exposed from the back. There would still be a difference, but hopefully only one small enough to only matter sometimes.

Assuming that this is taken further than just a small mode as part of Warframe (which probably won't happen), there will likely be many different classes. There will undoubtedly be balance issues there, as having so many different options naturally leads to some being better than others. Those balance issues would need to addressed on a case-by-case basis.

[PublikDomain]

47 minutes ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

 

These are valid concerns. The factions being so different does make it hard to keep them on the same level as one another. Obviously it'd be better to address those issues after developing the full thing, but here's how I'd try to solve those:

Armor vs. Shields is tough to get around, as shields would be vastly more powerful due to shield gating and regenerating EHP. You'd have to either readjust how shields and armor work to make them effectively the same, give both sides access to armor and shields, or remove armor and shields entirely. I'd personally be in favor of giving everyone access to shields and armor. Certain Corpus enemies have armor (such as Oxium Ospreys), so it's not a huge leap to give Grineer access to shield technology.

I've touched on weapon balance somewhat with my suggestion of balancing weapons differently from PvE Warframe with the goal of making faction weapons mirrors of each other. If we're only staying with the default classes, there should only be small differences after making the necessary adjustments. If more classes are to be implemented (I'll probably make some up for fun), then weapons would have to be exclusive to classes and be used to balance the whole class.

Hitboxes are difficult. Grineer shield their heads a lot, while Corpus are naturally slimmer. The solution I can think of is to give the Grineer Lancer the model of a Shield Lancer or the Drekkar Elite Lancer (recolored). These models are about as slim as the Corpus Crewman, and have their heads exposed from the back. There would still be a difference, but hopefully only one small enough to only matter sometimes.

Assuming that this is taken further than just a small mode as part of Warframe (which probably won't happen), there will likely be many different classes. There will undoubtedly be balance issues there, as having so many different options naturally leads to some being better than others. Those balance issues would need to addressed on a case-by-case basis.

Might be more interesting to just say "yeah, the factions are different" and lean in to asymmetrical PvP. The Grineer are individually tougher, but the Corpus have a numbers advantage from their proxies. Grineer guns are stronger at close range, but Corpus guns are stronger at long range. Etc.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

6 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Might be more interesting to just say "yeah, the factions are different" and lean in to asymmetrical PvP. The Grineer are individually tougher, but the Corpus have a numbers advantage from their proxies. Grineer guns are stronger at close range, but Corpus guns are stronger at long range. Etc.

I think asymmetrical PvP is a great idea if the Grineer Vs. Corpus idea is taken further than just the 2 default classes. It's simply not possible to create mirror versions of certain enemy types without making entirely new enemies. However for just an arcade shooter addition to Warframe, the factions would need to be similar enough that players don't feel like they're put on "the losing side".

[DrivaMain]

4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

  

We've had Dedicated Servers for PC since 2016 and generally, they work great:

People have been hosting them for others just for the sake of it and we're grateful about that. Alone not having to worry about host migrations is great. Maybe with Cross-Play, consoles will finally be able to join games on them, too.

 

Besides, it's somewhere in there that they considered enabling them for Trials, too. If I were you guys, you'd better bring it up again whenever they talk about the reintroduction of that (3rd Orb Mother). Make it clear that yes, that's something people want.

Not "OFFICIAL SERVERS". I don't trust anonymously run servers, don't want these servers to install a backdoor in my computer. DE must invest on official servers if they want PvP to succeed, but then they have another major challenge to tackle.. which is trying to satisfy the PvP and PvE community. PvP requires constant server maintenance and game balance reviews. DE is a small team, they can't pull that off, unless DE are willing to enlist another game studio to manage the PvP side of Warframe.

Me personally, I don't want my dose of content to be reduced significantly because DE is trying to satisfy the PvP community by allocating precious dev resources. If they want to bring this into Warframe after they finished creating this game mode they should leave it on life support immediately or enlist another game developer who is experienced with PvP to maintain the gamemode.

[PublikDomain]

Just now, DrivaMain said:

don't want these servers to install a backdoor in my computer.

I don't think that's how it works...

[DrivaMain]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't think that's how it works...

Still, I don't trust them. Who knows what malicious server owners have done to the game server files to do bad malicious things to the players.

[PublikDomain]

5 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Still, I don't trust them. Who knows what malicious server owners have done to the game server files to do bad malicious things to the players.

You do realize the entire game is P2P, right? You connect to random machines every time you join a game.

[DrivaMain]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

You do realize the entire game is P2P, right? You connect to random machines every time you join a game.

Yes I do, but I still stay away from anonymously run 24/7 dedicated servers and I always try to host 99% of the time to avoid these type of situation.

[PublikDomain]

Just now, DrivaMain said:

Yes I do, but I still stay away from anonymously run 24/7 dedicated servers and I always try to host 99% of the time to avoid these type of situation.

And every time you're not a host you're connecting to other machines acting as servers. Joining a random game is literally the same as connecting to a player-hosted Conclave server. I don't think undue paranoia is a very strong argument against having more PvP...

[DrivaMain]

Just now, PublikDomain said:

And every time you're not a host you're connecting to other machines acting as servers. Joining a random game is literally the same as connecting to a player-hosted Conclave server. I don't think undue paranoia is a very strong argument against having more PvP...

I am not fully against PvP as long as DE doesn't invest too much into it. If DE can manage PvP without lagging PvE development I am fine with that. In fact, sometime I join conclave matches for giggles but still remain vigilant because it's not an official server.

[PublikDomain]

9 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

I am not fully against PvP as long as DE doesn't invest too much into it. If DE can manage PvP without lagging PvE development I am fine with that. In fact, sometime I join conclave matches for giggles but still remain vigilant because it's not an official server.

I'd prefer DE only working on the things I enjoy as well, but I'm not the only one the game is being made for. Not every second of development time is being spent on just you, and that's fine.

[TeaHands]

I don't know if it would be that fun playing something that would most likely end up being Gears of War Lite. 

The gameplay shown at Tennocon sure looks neat in its contained, dramatic environment. But I don't see it being all that fun after a few rounds of PVP. 

[EmberStar]

57 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Not "OFFICIAL SERVERS". I don't trust anonymously run servers, don't want these servers to install a backdoor in my computer.

Speaking as someone who doesn't like PVP at all... I'm not sure that's how those servers work.  Especially since you're already connecting to random other computers every time you team.  You're on their machine if they host, but they're in YOUR machine when you host.  If you're worried about random evil boogeymen doing code injection attacks... I'm fairly sure that *EITHER WAY* is good enough.

[FrostDragoon]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

Lastly, I acknowledge that this isn't a unique idea, and it isn't likely to happen, but I mostly want to gauge player feedback now that the New War has shown us an actual in-game starting point for a mode like this. We can all see the state of Conclave, and I'm curious to see if players would want a working PvP mode, or if PvP has no place in a PvE focused looter shooter.

Not only should PvP not be attempted again, it was such a failure before that it's not actually worth the time/effort it would take to remove it from the game now. Instead, I'd like to see other modes take advantage of these playable characters, especially reworking Invasions for this purpose.

[Kontrollo]

3 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Not "OFFICIAL SERVERS". I don't trust anonymously run servers, don't want these servers to install a backdoor in my computer. DE must invest on official servers if they want PvP to succeed, but then they have another major challenge to tackle.. which is trying to satisfy the PvP and PvE community. PvP requires constant server maintenance and game balance reviews. DE is a small team, they can't pull that off, unless DE are willing to enlist another game studio to manage the PvP side of Warframe.

Me personally, I don't want my dose of content to be reduced significantly because DE is trying to satisfy the PvP community by allocating precious dev resources. If they want to bring this into Warframe after they finished creating this game mode they should leave it on life support immediately or enlist another game developer who is experienced with PvP to maintain the gamemode.

There is no "magic" in these servers.

Do you play public games? If so you've probably been playing on hundreds of "servers", except those always also run their own client simulation. Dedicated Servers in Warframe are just the host component by itself, it's still Warframe.

The way it works is that this host is basically a ninth player without an "avatar", which runs the game loop except all the graphics stuff. So it's lighter on resources than a regular host and that's basically it.

There are some additional settings you can tweak to give players a better experience if you have a beefy machine, but other than that there is not much of a difference to a regular Listen Server (=host in a squad).

 

As for the rest: DE is a small team of only ~300 people and they haven't constantly reviewed anything in years. They wouldn't have to, either, if not for PvE patches introducing problems on the PvP side. That has to do with weak separation between the modes, though. On hitscan weapons it's basically just a multiplier.

They can add new stuff (or not) at their discretion, there's already a sizable arsenal. People don't mind too much that there are a lot of things that aren't enabled. But game balance has taken a backseat, too, in recent years (bugs & exploits from the PvE side).

 

Yes, in the simplest cases that means just setting an "enabled" flag and picking an appropriate multiplier. How hard is that again? Most everything is already existing PvE assets. PvP is definitely not where the main workload is. And if something is too complicated to balance they can simply opt to not do it.

It's not remotely on the same scale as PvE.

[Fallen77]

Il y a 10 heures, Kontrollo a dit :

Of course a hardline "PvE-only" player would say that.

Somehow you guys never fail to insert yourself into these discussions with the ever-same tired old refrain.

That's unbelievable right ? Finding people arguing for the game to stay PVE... in warframe of all place !

It's not like the game is a strictly coop pve looter shooter to the core, in which the pvp implementation was such a fail that it became a meme right ?

Oh wait... it is.

What even is this argument "ah jee... another of those pesky pve player in my warframe forum" ?

Great way to open, by devaluating the other person, now I know you are making a rock solid argument.

I like how you say that "we insert ourselves into those discussions", like if it was a private club. Sorry, it's a forum, not an echo chamber.

And sorry we always say the same thing, it's almost as if there wasn't many things to say when people ask for pvp to be force jammed into a pve game with a pve audience.

[Kontrollo]

2 hours ago, Fallen77 said:

That's unbelievable right ? Finding people arguing for the game to stay PVE... in warframe of all place !

It's not like the game is a strictly coop pve looter shooter to the core, in which the pvp implementation was such a fail that it became a meme right ?

Oh wait... it is.

What even is this argument "ah jee... another of those pesky pve player in my warframe forum" ?

Great way to open, by devaluating the other person, now I know you are making a rock solid argument.

I like how you say that "we insert ourselves into those discussions", like if it was a private club. Sorry, it's a forum, not an echo chamber.

And sorry we always say the same thing, it's almost as if there wasn't many things to say when people ask for pvp to be force jammed into a pve game with a pve audience.

It's always the same. I've been hearing it for years.

It doesn't even matter what the topic is, specifically. The reaction is the same. Do you see that same thing happen when it's about other side activities? No? I wonder why that is.

I'm not devaluing anyone, my comment was directed at the posts themselves. Yes, we know there are people who are violently opposed to any form of PvP, can we move on now? Let the people who want to talk about Grineer vs. Corpus have their thread.

 

"But it's a PvE game!" Well, mostly it is, yes. But not exclusively. PvP still exists and is still played, despite barely getting any dev attention in years now. The meme is just that.

Funny that you say it's not an echo chamber, though. 😄

[Fallen77]

il y a 51 minutes, Kontrollo a dit :

Funny that you say it's not an echo chamber, though. 😄

You are the one complaining that someone else is voicing their opinion, you're the one trying to turn this into an echo chamber. If you wanna sass me with my own words, make sure it applies.

We're not moving on, you're not having your little safe space thread, it's a public forum. If I feel (like many others) that it's a terrible idea to ever waste precious dev time on a multiplayer experience that has nothing to do with the base game concept, I will voice it.

And if there have been thousands upon thousands of other people that said the same thing as me in the past, that's just no reason to stop, because you guys are not letting go either. Something having been said before doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be said again.

It's your right to ask for whatever you feel, it's our right to protest against those ideas.

Imagine someone saying "oh come on, let it go, you guys have been saying that 1+1=2 for years now. Can we move on ? Can you let us have 1+1=3 now ?"... buddy, if you've been hearing the exact same thing for years and from different people... maybe there is a reason for that don't you think ?

[TheMostFrench]

I think factional PvP could work if it were its own Spinoff game. I wouldn't want to see it as part of the main Warframe experience, because being Grineer or Corpus for multiple rounds or several hours at a time is no longer Warframe. What we've been shown is a cinematic quest that offers unique perspectives, which is entirely different from a fully designed and balanced PvP experience.

Don't get me wrong though, I would definitely love to play as the Grineer and fly their gunships, dropping people into combat, or commanding Corpus drones and teleporting in waves of attackers to fight back the Queens, but yeah in a game like this the focus is no longer on Warframe anymore and IMO it would need to be a separate product set in the same universe.

Warframe right now is a looter-shooter, f2p, story driven co-op game. PvP is secondary.

[XzWasPzX]

At this point we all are thinking on Origin Wars: Battlefront. We do even know a litlle about the hierachies between factions... And know what? I love the idea. Bye bye bullet jump. Hello capture the flag, king of the hill, exterminate.... whatever xD

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

Gotta say, its kinda funny how darned worked up the players who don't like pvp get whenever pvp is mentioned.

I'm no fan myself tbh, don't have the reflexes these days, but I have no problem with those who do like pvp getting something.    They've been a pretty patient, long-suffering bunch.

[FrostDragoon]

23 minutes ago, TheMostFrench said:

Warframe right now is a looter-shooter, f2p, story driven co-op game. PvP is secondary.

Right now PvP isn't even that--it's simply dead.

[KnightOwl_]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)Hyperion Rexx said:

Gotta say, its kinda funny how darned worked up the players who don't like pvp get whenever pvp is mentioned.

I'm no fan myself tbh, don't have the reflexes these days, but I have no problem with those who do like pvp getting something.    They've been a pretty patient, long-suffering bunch.

It’s because we have seen pvp ruin enough pve focused games to get fed up.  
Having my favorite subclass in destiny pve nerfed to the ground because someone died to it in pvp is fuuuuun I tell you.  

[XzWasPzX]

hace 6 minutos, FrostDragoon dijo:

Right now PvP isn't even that--it's simply dead.

And that is interpreted today as a lack, multiplayer is not understood without a pvp option, the new player comes looking for both, and soon it is found that that pvp does not exist. And that makes it less attractive.