The Primed Frost Topic - What Should Be Done With Him?

[FrostDragoon]

I see this sentiment rolling around the community that Frost isn't very good--at least in current meta--and having played him for quite a long time, I have some notions as to why. However, rather than dictating my opinions from the top-down just because I'm the OP here, I want to ask two fundamental questions of each person here who has an interest in this frame and his place in the game:

1. What do you feel are the main reasons he has fallen behind in usability?

2. What do you propose they change to remedy that?

I'll be adding my opinions in the replies later on, but I am more interested in seeing if there's any sort of consensus on the issue or what solutions some creative minds here come up with. Ideally, this would be a thread that we could use to fine tune something tangible the devs can look at and consider if it's worth working on, because without our input I don't believe they would be motivated to fix it.

[--END--Rikutatis]

4 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

1. What do you feel are the main reasons he has fallen behind in usability?

2. What do you propose they change to remedy that?

The answer to 1 in my opinion is power creep of newer frames mostly. Frost can defend an area and CC's enemies. Khora does both of those things as well, but on top of that she also nukes rooms and has an augment to turn into a loot frame. Gara is the same, she also protects an objective (and is even better than frost for protecting moving objetives), but she also nukes rooms on top of having super high damage reduction. I mean, Frost was just power crept. But I still use him a lot, more than Gara tbh. But nowadays I mostly use an alternative full armor strip build for him. Which is the one thing he can do those other two frames cannot. But that build usually tanks his efficiency, which is horrible for ice globe.

I'm honestly not sure how to remedy that. I think giving him nuke abilities would be boring and too obvious. Maybe lower the treshold for his armor strip by requiring a lot less STR for max strip, so his builds can be more versatile. That'd be a start, but he would probably need more.

[Drasiel]

4 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

1. What do you feel are the main reasons he has fallen behind in usability?

2. What do you propose they change to remedy that?

1. Because there are more game modes and almost all of the new ones focus on mobility over staying put. When there were like 4 mission types half of them were defence and mobile defence.
   1. Newer defensive frames have more utility it's easier to build the newer defensive options for both defence and offence, or defence and support. Frost can't really use his other powers effectively if you build focused on Snowglobe
2. boost the base stats of his offensive powers so they don't suffer as much when left at 100% power strength, buff his base ability range a smidge to make  stretch not absolutely mandatory at minimum for an offensive frost. Make his 1 do a small aoe freeze effect, give him an augment that gives him a less powerful snowglobe that moves with him.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1. Gara does his job better and is more DPS focused. Nothing annoys me more than a Frost Bubble because of its constantly interference with AOE weapons.

2. IDK. They could give him a passive that makes a 10 stack cold proc completely freeze enemies. Give him a new first ability. Let allies shoot through the outside of SnowGlobe. Give him scaling damage.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

1: as said, most other CC/protection frames do it way better. it's noticeable when you realize how contradictory it is to build him to get around this flaw.

example: while i can easily CC using high range and efficiency(or low range and low efficiency.) but to make it so his powers can hit harder....you need to overload his power strength which restricts maximizing his other strengths because his armor strip will cost so much energy that its more likely going to be a one off every now and then.

and if you maximize his range and duration to take full advantage of his CC....then he becomes a discount Hydroid....who is literally CC the frame(seriously, his entire kit is CC. my brother and I call him the king of CC because of this.)

2: what would i do to improve him? lets start with his 4 powers:

freeze: allow the freeze to inherit avalanche's armor strip but at a fixed rate(25%) to give it utility.

ice wave: allow it to send out an 360 degree ice pulse around frost on top of the normal wave. this way it can hit other enemies around him.

ice wave alternate: instead of the above, im going to take an idea from outriders' devastator...specifically one of its mods. allow ice wave to steal a set amount of armor/shields and add them to frost for a set time.

Snow globe: allow ally weapons to be shot through this thing, or maybe some offensive bonus when frost is inside(iirc, he already becomes harder to kill when inside it...i dunno.)

example: add guaranteed cold procs to his weapons when he's inside it, as well as boost his damage of all his powers by a set 50% or something.

avalanche: this is actually a tough one. I'd probably improve its range and base armor strip to be abit more usable. and taking from outriders' pyromancer: give it a damage multiplier when it affects enemies afflicted with cold based on the number of cold procs currently applied.

 

now for his stats? I'd probably improve on his energy and sprint speed more than anything. not really much else(seriously...Atlas is the only frame slower than him and i don't wanna waist a mod slot to fix that.)

[FrostDragoon]

On 2021-07-20 at 10:34 AM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Let allies shoot through the outside of SnowGlobe.

 

33 minutes ago, (XBOX)Orcus Imperium said:

Snow globe: allow ally weapons to be shot through this thing, or maybe some offensive bonus when frost is inside

I think this will likely be a recurring complaint, which is a bit strange to me because I've played him for so long and it never bothered me that much outside of other Frost players who place them very poorly. Perhaps they could borrow the Volt's shield concept and make it so you do bonus cold damage when you shoot out from inside it?

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

19 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

 

I think this will likely be a recurring complaint, which is a bit strange to me because I've played him for so long and it never bothered me that much outside of other Frost players who place them very poorly. Perhaps they could borrow the Volt's shield concept and make it so you do bonus cold damage when you shoot out from inside it?

I even mentioned the bonus cold in my reply.

currently, iirc, snow globe is the only defensive power that fully prevents ally fire from breaching it(Haven't used gara in a while. cataclysm allows power based abilities through and if enemies outside its range are in the rift you can still shoot them so it doesn't truly prevent ally fire from breaching.) so it'd be nice if that was rectified.

[LuckyCharm]

Personally I don't find him weak, but he is a frame i rarely use mostly for a couple of reasons. 

- His movement speed feels sub-par so in quicker missions I find I can't keep up with teammates and often lag behind or have to operator dash from objective to objective. 

- His visuals compared to almost all other frames in game feel very outdated. Even his buff dad-bod skin feels lacking compared to the craziness that other frames have, he really needs an update with that, as does loki. 

- I find his abilities too slow. He has a fairly long cast for such little damage, and it just feels awkward to use ice wave/ice bolt when other frames do the same but almost instant cast. 

-snowglobes transparency. I don't like my own visuals being impared by my own skills. I know its a strong ability but for what it does it'd be nicer without all the particles and effects on it. That's why volts shield is so nice. 

 

What i'd say to improve him

-hold cast ice globe to selfcast it on yourself like an eximus bubble that can move with you

-allow frozen enemies to take other status procs (not sure if this has been fixed yet but that used to be the case)

-increase his base move speed and cast times

[FrostDragoon]

37 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

increase his base move speed and cast times

This strikes me as the kind of thing that is a glaring problem, easy to fix, won't make him "meta," but will put him one notch higher on generic tier lists.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

7 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

 

other Frost players who place them very poorly.

This is why I want the change.

[Drasiel]

8 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

Personally I don't find him weak, but he is a frame i rarely use mostly for a couple of reasons. 

- His movement speed feels sub-par so in quicker missions I find I can't keep up with teammates and often lag behind or have to operator dash from objective to objective. 

- His visuals compared to almost all other frames in game feel very outdated. Even his buff dad-bod skin feels lacking compared to the craziness that other frames have, he really needs an update with that, as does loki. 

- I find his abilities too slow. He has a fairly long cast for such little damage, and it just feels awkward to use ice wave/ice bolt when other frames do the same but almost instant cast. 

-snowglobes transparency. I don't like my own visuals being impared by my own skills. I know its a strong ability but for what it does it'd be nicer without all the particles and effects on it. That's why volts shield is so nice. 

 

What i'd say to improve him

-hold cast ice globe to selfcast it on yourself like an eximus bubble that can move with you

-allow frozen enemies to take other status procs (not sure if this has been fixed yet but that used to be the case)

-increase his base move speed and cast times

Frozen blocking other status proccs has been fixed for a few years now.

[Famecans]

it's not my main frame but if you have some reliable energy source you can build for Steel Path, survive and kill coldly. (energy leeches infested is still a problem for Frost but it's also a problem for most frames)

skill 1 3 and 4 do a great job but it would be awesome if frost could move the globes from one place to another and use them as protection during movement, something similar to nyx asimilate but complete freedom of movement.

 

[FrostDragoon]

12 minutes ago, Famecans said:

it would be awesome if frost could move the globes from one place to another and use them as protection during movement, something similar to nyx asimilate but complete freedom of movement.

I see this keep coming up, not just here but in my chats with friends and people in game. I am actually torn about it.

On the one hand, Warframe has become a lot more mobile than it used to be (partially because people asked for that to be the case some years ago). These kinds of suggestions make sense in that context.

On the other hand, Frost's identity is something about being less mobile, but something of an immovable object (which nullifiers cheated him out of when they came out).

So I wonder if we are to prioritize the undoubtedly more popular approach of making him faster and more mobile, or if there's something to preserving his identity and just making him better at that?

[Famecans]

37 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

I see this keep coming up, not just here but in my chats with friends and people in game. I am actually torn about it.

On the one hand, Warframe has become a lot more mobile than it used to be (partially because people asked for that to be the case some years ago). These kinds of suggestions make sense in that context.

On the other hand, Frost's identity is something about being less mobile, but something of an immovable object (which nullifiers cheated him out of when they came out).

So I wonder if we are to prioritize the undoubtedly more popular approach of making him faster and more mobile, or if there's something to preserving his identity and just making him better at that?

in respect for us brothers old school; in respect for old builds; in respect to underrated power of this frame...

Frost needs only an increase in mobility for evasive strategies will make it even better and more energy efficient, however any mobility to the globe will already make it extremely enjoyable.

Gara does not do what Frost does because with a simple press of Frost button the squad can use their favorite weapons against the crownd of static and unarmored enemies, a simple button press and Frost protect zones and any newcomer to the squad.

the nullifiers? well... the nullifiers is a problem comming to all frames, i recomend the gamers play an survivor corpus mission of railjack. the new nullifiers with a melee make a mess in any frame without stationary strategy.

[FrostDragoon]

54 minutes ago, Famecans said:

in respect for us brothers old school; in respect for old builds; in respect to underrated power of this frame...

Frost needs only an increase in mobility for evasive strategies will make it even better and more energy efficient, however any mobility to the globe will already make it extremely enjoyable.

Gara does not do what Frost does because with a simple press of Frost button the squad can use their favorite weapons against the crownd of static and unarmored enemies, a simple button press and Frost protect zones and any newcomer to the squad.

the nullifiers? well... the nullifiers is a problem comming to all frames, i recomend the gamers play an survivor corpus mission of railjack. the new nullifiers with a melee make a mess in any frame without stationary strategy.

I still hold to this day that Nullifiers were a design mistake. They undercut the very foundation of the gameplay in very unhealthy ways and have only accelerated the balance death spiral we constantly see now.

[Famecans]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

I still hold to this day that Nullifiers were a design mistake. They undercut the very foundation of the gameplay in very unhealthy ways and have only accelerated the balance death spiral we constantly see now.

yes, the player makes a great strategy spending a lot of energy and time and an nullifier comes on and off instantly. it's not a progressive debuff it's not a nulle its simply a waste of a combo.

the globe abilities are the only ones really penalized and this is wrong as they are static abilities, an voided ability should return energy to the frame or be nuller when the nullifier touch the frame like other frames.

the leeches is another strange enemy as there is nothing in the game showing that the frame is being drained... ok, there is the tiny energy number in the corner of the interface but it is barely visible, the parasites are stationary and invisible.

...and this is where I sort these subsequent details to another subject which is the general interface error for buff and debuff, damage status, void drain, recovery... all should be visibly informed in the interface with different colors... etc

[LuckyCharm]

3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I see this keep coming up, not just here but in my chats with friends and people in game. I am actually torn about it.

On the one hand, Warframe has become a lot more mobile than it used to be (partially because people asked for that to be the case some years ago). These kinds of suggestions make sense in that context.

On the other hand, Frost's identity is something about being less mobile, but something of an immovable object (which nullifiers cheated him out of when they came out).

So I wonder if we are to prioritize the undoubtedly more popular approach of making him faster and more mobile, or if there's something to preserving his identity and just making him better at that?

Can agree thats part of his identity but its also part of why you dont see many play him. Looking at it hes slower than other frames but hes also less defended while moving from point to point. He has no defensive ability moving from place to place outside his globe where even squishy frames like banshee have a tool to protect them while moving whether its an aoe stun, invisibility, a dash of somesort, a shield, or damage reduction. 

Can fix that now with helminth but thats sorta removing even more of that identity you were talking about

[FrostDragoon]

56 minutes ago, Famecans said:

the leeches is another strange enemy as there is nothing in the game showing that the frame is being drained... ok, there is the tiny energy number in the corner of the interface but it is barely visible, the parasites are stationary and invisible.

These would probably be the 2nd worst offenders in terms of bad enemy design. The biggest reason being shared with nullifiers, but also have their own details of why they suck. The one thing good about nullifiers is that they are unmistakable. Ancients can be hard to see or target in a crowd, but are easy to identify. Leech Eximus units don't stand out at all, and that's not okay, especially since they undermine the game almost as hard as nullifiers.

[(XBOX)Erkwounder]

If nullyfiers are too hard to take down i suggesting you guys changing your single shot weapons to beam, machine guns and such. Because those shutting down nullifier bubles pretty fast. Single shot weapons working too, but we need to go inside bubble then, if we wanted take nullifiers down. 

 

 

I using my Frost setup effiency mods, two weapons which bring to me energy back. (synoid gammador and zaw melee weapon wich bring hp and energy per heavy melee kill) then last one which bring energy is operator.

Then i have hp 1070 and armor 877 + arcane guardian and arcane grace both rank 5.  And lastly i using adaptation also.

That my build working quite well even steel path.

 

 

If someone complains Frost running speed there is mods for that. I dont care if there is slow moving Tennos in the game. I think it is more or less speedsters own fault if they doesnt learn to wait others. I have seen many many and many times how peoples just want to rushing without mind.  For good example is door where we need two team mates to open it. Speedsters rushing to there to die and then complains how it is others fault. It is not others fault, because peoples cant decide what rushers want to do or where they want to go.

 

 

What i have been playing my Frost in steel path. 

Frost is quite strong in rigth build. So we need to think what abilities and weapons we using there. I dont just think damage alone what many peoples doing. Same goes to survivablity. I have seen nice damageers, but they have zero survivalibity just because they dont use anykind heal for example. I personaly want to check my defencive capasite first before i starting to add more damage to my builds. 

I can even soloing in steel path. Only which causing small issue sometimes is Stalker and hes fellow companions. Sometimes they are easy and sometimes harder, it depents which one want to showing their "face" and what the kind situation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FrostDragoon]

8 minutes ago, (XBOX)Erkwounder said:

If nullyfiers are too hard to take down i suggesting you guys changing your single shot weapons to beam, machine guns and such. Because those shutting down nullifier bubles pretty fast. Single shot weapons working too, but we need to go inside bubble then, if we wanted take nullifiers down. 

You misunderstand. It is not that they are hard to take down. It's that they are badly designed. Warframe selection has everything to do with what powers you want to use and these enemies undermine that for most frames. My friends and I deliberately avoid Corpus missions when there are Grineer or Infested versions of it available just because Corpus are so much less fun to play against. We are more than capable of doing any content in the game, but we don't enjoy--we don't have fun--against the Corpus because they are so tedious and annoying.

[(XBOX)Erkwounder]

47 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

You misunderstand. It is not that they are hard to take down. It's that they are badly designed. Warframe selection has everything to do with what powers you want to use and these enemies undermine that for most frames. My friends and I deliberately avoid Corpus missions when there are Grineer or Infested versions of it available just because Corpus are so much less fun to play against. We are more than capable of doing any content in the game, but we don't enjoy--we don't have fun--against the Corpus because they are so tedious and annoying.

It is your opinion what is annoying or not, but i like figth againts every enemy groups.

 

Secondly: I meant to my post to everyone, not just for you,

[FrostDragoon]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)Erkwounder said:

It is your opinion what is annoying or not, but i like figth againts every enemy groups.

 

Secondly: I meant to my post to everyone, not just for you,

That's fine, but I'm only clarifying that the advice on how to deal with them comes from a misunderstanding of what my misgivings with them actually are. DE isn't likely to fix the problem with them (or Leech Eximus units), but it bears mention that part of the reason Frost fell out of favor was because these kinds of enemies rob him of his role.