It's time to nerf Wukong

[Berzerkules]

8 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

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Thanks but I'm not interested. Maybe I misunderstood your intent but with lyrics like this What am I supposed to think.

 

Don't you know
Honey, ain't nobody ever gonna love you
The way I try to do
Who'll take all your pain
And your heartache too?
And if you need me you know that I'll always be around
If you ever want me

[bonamb]

4 minutes ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

The easier the Warframe is to obtain, the more people will use it.
Wukong is the easiest Warframe to get, and you can get it as soon as you join the Clan.
Hard-to-get Warframes are used by fewer people.
Grendel is the hardest Warframe to find and currently exists behind ZoTA.

That is not the only reason why Wukong is used, but its statistics as a means of comparing Warframes to each other is meaningless.

Actually, the easiest warframes to get are Excalibur, Volt and Mag. Rhino is a close second. If you're making your own clan, wukong is locked behind research, or you need friends already on the game with a tenno lab that has research. Early availability is therefore not the reason. 

If the statistics were predicated solely on his availability from the clan dojo, surely Banshee, Nezha, Volt and Zephyr would all be in the same place as him, they are all available from the clan after all? Availability from the clan is therefore not the reason. 

The most used warframe in warframe (at 10%) isnt actually Wukong, its wukong prime, who isnt even available from the clan dojo. Primes tend to be a little harder to get than standard warframes arent they? 

Basically, you cant call the stats meaningless, because if wukong was just as powerful as Banshee, Nezha etc, he'd be in the same place as them, right? Sure, availability over something like Grendel would play a factor, but the main factor here is how "op" wukong is! Its pretty obvious! 

[p_silveira]

13 minutes ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

The easier the Warframe is to obtain, the more people will use it.
Wukong is the easiest Warframe to get, and you can get it as soon as you join the Clan.

So are Banshee and Zephyr, yet they see nowhere near the popularity of Wukong. 

Let's stop pretending that the big majority of the people that use him do it for reasons other than wuclone being a broken AFK turret, cloud walker making every stealth frame in the game irrelevant for Spy missions, and his passive rewarding you for dying.

[vanaukas]

1 minute ago, Berzerkules said:

Thanks but I'm not interested. Maybe I misunderstood your intent but with lyrics like this What am I supposed to think.

 

Don't you know
Honey, ain't nobody ever gonna love you
The way I try to do
Who'll take all your pain
And your heartache too?
And if you need me you know that I'll always be around
If you ever want me

Nah, just the first 3 lines.

But yes, I do find pleasure on the saltiness of other people if the situation is meaningless, I just take peoples feelings seriously when the situation calls for it.

In this specific case, I'll just put my sunglasses on and bring a lot of popcorn and fresh water.

[Tiltskillet]

18 minutes ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

The easier the Warframe is to obtain, the more people will use it.
Wukong is the easiest Warframe to get, and you can get it as soon as you join the Clan.

I won't belabor the points other people have already made. 

But, lol, somebody who has been around as long as you should remember when Wuk was a comically unpopular frame. 

What changed, I wonder?  :P

 

[Berzerkules]

8 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Nah, just the first 3 lines.

But yes, I do find pleasure on the saltiness of other people if the situation is meaningless, I just take peoples feelings seriously when the situation calls for it.

In this specific case, I'll just put my sunglasses on and bring a lot of popcorn and fresh water.

I guess I'm just not as easily entertained. Nerfing AoE weapons won't solve anything unless the reasons AoE is so commonly used are also addressed. The people pushing for AoE nerfs won't actually get what they want and the people that like AoE will also be disappointed. DE sidestepping the issues instead of fixing what is actually wrong with they game is a  lose lose situation for everyone except the people that enjoy watching people get pissed. Find happiness where you can I guess but relying on the negative emotions of others for pleasure seems like a waste of energy to me.

[Berzerkules]

DE is so bad with summoners that the only frame with a single good minion is too much for some people to handle. 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

I recommend that you start testing the staff build, i don't think it's as bad as wuzarrs say.  87k =  0 forma 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

2 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

DE is so bad with summoners that the only frame with a single good minion is too much for some people to handle. 

only good? are u serious? didn't you mean broken?

[vanaukas]

25 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I guess I'm just not as easily entertained. Nerfing AoE weapons won't solve anything unless the reasons AoE is so commonly used are also addressed. The people pushing for AoE nerfs won't actually get what they want and the people that like AoE will also be disappointed. DE sidestepping the issues instead of fixing what is actually wrong with they game is a  lose lose situation for everyone except the people that enjoy watching people get pissed. Find happiness where you can I guess but relying on the negative emotions of others for pleasure seems like a waste of energy to me.

I think it's more like a waste of energy playing a game that I don't like or a game that "forces me" to "reduce my playtime on 75%" due changes, but to each their own.

[ABlindGuyPlays]

20 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

DE is so bad with summoners that the only frame with a single good minion is too much for some people to handle. 

Careful there. Mods are gonna swarm you. Thread will be locked. And we'll get finger wagged at how all our feedback is in bad faith after issuing a backhanded non-apology that's in reality a thinly veiled statement at how horrible the playerbase is.

[Berzerkules]

20 minutes ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

only good? are u serious? didn't you mean broken?

I'd say that every other summon ability in the game is broken because they are worthless. Every other game out there that with a summoner the minions are made to get kills because that's how it's supposed to work. In WF everyone accepts that summon abilities suck so the one that doesn't gets hate. 

Nyx has mind control but even with the 500% damage augment it's worthless.

Atlas has rumblers which are also worthless with or without the augment.

Caliban has lethal Progeny with laughable damage and collision with players.

Nekros summons are only useful for DR with the augment.

Revenant and Xaku minions can be killed by friendly fire so they are totally worthless. 

What's the point of having summon abilities if they do nothing useful. It's a dead ability on a frame that only has 4 total abilities. Wuclone is the only useful one and people want it nerfed because it actually accomplishes the goal of a minion. I'd say fix the other useless summon abilities before nerfing Wukong. 

I don't even play Wukong regularly so it doesn't matter to me but nerfing the only minion in the game that is worth using seems ridiculous to me. 

 

[CosoMalvadoNG]

6 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

I'd say that every other summon ability in the game is broken because they are worthless. Every other game out there that with a summoner the minions are made to get kills because that's how it's supposed to work. In WF everyone accepts that summon abilities suck so the one that doesn't gets hate. 

Nyx has mind control but even with the 500% damage augment it's worthless.

Atlas has rumblers which are also worthless with or without the augment.

Caliban has lethal Progeny with laughable damage and collision with players.

Nekros summons are only useful for DR with the augment.

Revenant and Xaku minions can be killed by friendly fire so they are totally worthless. 

What's the point of having summon abilities if they do nothing useful. It's a dead ability on a frame that only has 4 total abilities. Wuclone is the only useful one and people want it nerfed because it actually accomplishes the goal of a minion. I'd say fix the other useless summon abilities before nerfing Wukong. 

I don't even play Wukong regularly so it doesn't matter to me but nerfing the only minion in the game that is worth using seems ridiculous to me. 

 

[DrBorris]

The only reason Wukong has the play-rate he currently does is that he can carry an AoE weapon. Way too much focus gets spent on WuClone, first of all the whole reason WuClone is so good is that it can carry an AoE weapon. Furthermore, the "boom-n-zoom" playstyle that people complain about the most has nothing to do with WuClone and everything to do with Cloud Walker.

AoE weapons aren't just poorly balanced against other weapons, they are breaking the core balance of the game. Why bring a DPS frame when you can just bring a launcher on Wukong and go fast. Why try and tank when everything is dead before it sees you. Why CC when... lol. Wukong is the perfect compliment to the current AoE meta, his kit isn't intrinsically broken.

 

I'm in the camp that Wukong needs more buffs than nerf (Iron Staff is aggressively meh), the "problem" with Wukong is the thing that you can equip on Wukong.

[Numerikuu]

On 2022-08-04 at 5:27 PM, vanaukas said:

The AOE bros are loosing their minds already and the nerfs aren't here yet, start gathering popcorns because we are about to watch new saltiness levels.

Gonna need to double that popcorn 🤣

[Silligoose]

On 2022-08-04 at 4:20 PM, Koed said:

The meta/most effective strat right now (for killing as many enemies as possible as fast as possible) is of course AOE weapons. But also the game has heavily shifted towards grouping abilities like Larva, Ensnare etc. We used to have strong abilities, that could kill or deal significant damage to enemies around us, but no frame really has any strong AOE damage abilities atm, so we group enemies up and let our weapons do the damage or straight up just spam our AOE weapons and skip the first step.

The problem imo then becomes, that if AOE weapons get nerfed significantly, the only reliable/most viable strat will be to group enemies. So every frame will basically become the same thing. There will of course be different buffs and minor nuances but your play style in game will basically boil down to using Ensnare, and then kill them with your weapons. And to some extent it is this way already, because abilities are as weak at killing things as they are. 

I do think there is a meta problem (by meta I mean the most efficient way to kill groups of enemies), but I think it's bigger than just AOE being strong - it's also our damage abilities being too weak.

Solution 1: Mission types that doesn't require killing large groups of enemies. And as a sidenote; make tilsets that are more open where you can actually see the enemies approach, because right now there are so many narrow hallways and small rooms cluttered with boxes and other means of "cover", making it so darn boring to play non AOE weapons, because you constantly have to "find" the enemies or wait for them to make their way around the corner.

Solution 2: Give us other ways to kill large groups of enemies. And I'm just spitballing here, but strong aoe nuking abilities with heavy restrictions like cooldowns, long animations/charge up mechanic or enourmous energy cost. Melee 12x combo super AOE attacks. I dunno, SOMETHING - give us an alternative for killing lots of enemies.

A build that I am personally really loving atm is Pillage+Maim Equinox. I reach 400% Power strength for full armor strip, and after having killed a few enemies, I can nuke a big AOE with Maim. Like that's fun, takes some setup, requires Pillage line of sight and doesn't completely break the game or devolve to "press 4 to win". We need more frames that can do that.

TLDR; Nerfing AOE weapons changes so little and I think Warframe needs to try something else/additionally to shake up the meta. 

 

 

In all honesty. your post serves to give reasons for why radial AoE needs to be nerfed, as well as reasons for why the damage, particularly on the higher performing radial AoE weapons can be nerfed:

• It performs too well, even in SP Incursion missions, as it really doesn't require any other tools, such as grouping, to help it perform much better overall
• It outperforms other AoE damage options via Warframe abilities
• It outperforms weapons that cannot kill multiple enemies instantly, even if their potential sustain damage exceeds that of radial AoE damage substantially
• Even if the damage is nerfed, players have various tools available to ensure radial AoE would still be a top performer within setups in many situations

Now, I do agree that a simple radial AoE damage nerf is not all that DE should do to shake things up and attain better balance. In contrast, I believe what DE should look to do, is more comprehensive. Overall, our damage is too high and as a result, many of the mechanics that would break the monotony experienced in different missions, rarely have a chance to play a role. Rebalancing our damage will help re-establish greater depth in SP and make missions and enemies more engaging in different ways, depending on the mission and any in question:

• Reduce damage bonusses from stacks of Weapon Arcanes to a max of 120% bonus
• Reduce stack bonusses received from Galv Mod bonusses (different values for different mods)
• Look to change some of the mechanics for triggering stacks of abovementioned mods/arcanes from "on kill" to "on hit", or another kind of trigger that doesn't rely on kills
• Reduce the value of vulnerability granted by Virus

Our damage is too high and far exceeds what is needed, even in SP. The jump in our power is also neigh impossible to balance within a missions, with weapons increasing their damage by x13 - x20+ due to stacking bonusses attained from Weapon Arcanes and Galv mods alone - DE can't present any sort of balanced enemy durability with jumps in power like that: Games should look to have mechanics that lead to peak and valleys, but with the current stack potential, we get Everest and the Mariana Trench - the discrepancy is too great. Even DE knows it is too much, so they use "behind the scenes" nerfs like damage attenuation. Balance our damage properly, balance the valleys and peaks properly,  balance enemy durability properly and get rid of the band-aid that is damage attenuation: If players farm and attain 50% more power in their mods and setups, their weapons should do 50% more DPS as expected, not only 15% because of some stupid formula designed to nerf their power behind the scenes.

Speaking of balancing enemy durability properly, DE should start relying less on armour and the associated damage reduction to give enemies durability: An enemy with with around 7 million EHP and only 100k HP is pseudo durable at best and that type of pseudo durability just doesn't cut it. It didn't cut it two years ago with the release of SP and it is still trash. Cap armour at around 2700 and thus associated damage reduction to around 90%, maintain the EHP by giving the appropriate HP value and just like that armour stripping and slash/viral are no longer as far ahead of other armour-dealing options as they used to be, with other damage types and partial armour stripping options becoming competitive choices instead of afterthoughts. Even melee stances that don't have forced slash procs could become more competitive choices.

Finally, the EHP of non-armoured units need to be addressed: They are simply far too weak and their durability needs to be brought more in line with the ratio in durability in non-armoured units vs armoured units, as seen at around lvl 50 or so.

Now some may read the above and think it would take ages to kill enemies with all these changes and nerfs: It wouldn't. Even if DE was to address our damage output, reduce maximum damage potential by 60% AND made the changes to armour:health ratios, that 7 million EHP enemy, an SP level 150 Heavy Gunner btw, would still get killed in seconds, even if using non-top tier weapons, such as a Tenora Prime., even without any additional buffs from a Warframe.

Oh, and DE can go ahead and throw Overguard in the trash as well and use a proper system to address cc power. The current mechanics are bad for game depth and diversity.

[vanaukas]

31 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

Gonna need to double that popcorn 🤣

Holy void, the absolute madman, imagine if they pull both nerfs at once lmao

[Berzerkules]

27 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

I think it's more like a waste of energy playing a game that I don't like or a game that "forces me" to "reduce my playtime on 75%" due changes, but to each their own.

It's not that I don't still like the game it's just that there have been some changes I don't like. It's not the first time I cut down on play time or just walked away from a game because an update brought changes I didn't like. DE can do whatever they want with their game and I can do whatever I want with my free time. That's how this gaming industry works. 

I still enjoy playing Wisp and a few other frames. I also like the occasional solo eidolon hunts so I play when I get that itch. 

Then there are things I used to enjoy like coming up with weird endless solo disruption builds for random frames that relied heavily on cc and operator that aren't nearly as much fun anymore. It's just more random damage from enemies that ignore my abilities and sluggish void sling that takes more time to preform the same actions which leads to more random damage. The transference cooldown is also unbearable and discourages me from using operator as frequently as I used to as well. I'm just not motivated to theory craft builds that don't function against the enemies I actually want them to work on. 

I was used to playing a lot of different frames with multiple builds and now the majority of them aren't as effective so I get bored playing a select few frames and find something better to do with my time. 

[vanaukas]

16 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

It's not that I don't still like the game it's just that there have been some changes I don't like. It's not the first time I cut down on play time or just walked away from a game because an update brought changes I didn't like. DE can do whatever they want with their game and I can do whatever I want with my free time. That's how this gaming industry works. 

I still enjoy playing Wisp and a few other frames. I also like the occasional solo eidolon hunts so I play when I get that itch. 

Then there are things I used to enjoy like coming up with weird endless solo disruption builds for random frames that relied heavily on cc and operator that aren't nearly as much fun anymore. It's just more random damage from enemies that ignore my abilities and sluggish void sling that takes more time to preform the same actions which leads to more random damage. The transference cooldown is also unbearable and discourages me from using operator as frequently as I used to as well. I'm just not motivated to theory craft builds that don't function against the enemies I actually want them to work on. 

I was used to playing a lot of different frames with multiple builds and now the majority of them aren't as effective so I get bored playing a select few frames and find something better to do with my time. 

Cool, but no one asked.

[Yamazuki]

2 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I guess I'm just not as easily entertained. Nerfing AoE weapons won't solve anything unless the reasons AoE is so commonly used are also addressed. The people pushing for AoE nerfs won't actually get what they want and the people that like AoE will also be disappointed. DE sidestepping the issues instead of fixing what is actually wrong with they game is a  lose lose situation for everyone except the people that enjoy watching people get pissed. Find happiness where you can I guess but relying on the negative emotions of others for pleasure seems like a waste of energy to me.

Some miserable people require that people around them be put in an even more miserable state than them, even if temporary, in order to feel better about themselves in relative terms. We live in a world where people like this will feel joy watching people's livelihood be taken away even when it causes their life to come to an end.

It's behavior that's just going to exist for as long as humans as is do.

[cute_moth.npc]

30 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Holy void, the absolute madman, imagine if they pull both nerfs at once lmao

We turned Wukong into an AoE Warframe

AND THEN NERFED HIM TO DEATH!

[vanaukas]

8 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

We live in a world where people like this will feel joy watching people's livelihood be taken away even when it causes their life to come to an end.

Enjoying some people getting mad over a nerf in a video game =/= Enjoying people losing their livelihood. Don't mix stuff. 

I guess we live in a world where people think that videogames are as important or even the same as real life issues... Following that logic, we all are potential murderers because we enjoy killing stuff in game.

3 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

We turned Wukong into an AoE Warframe

AND THEN NERFED HIM TO DEATH!

I think Celestial Twin is the "Big offender" in his kit, it's too OP, it's like a Venari on roids that can use your weapon of choice.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Simply_The_Cat:

Considering the recent Pablo's post with warframe popularity graph clearly showing Wukong leaving literally all the other warframes behind by a huge margin, I hope you won't decide to nerf Wukong?
His popularity doesn't come from him being OP, it comes from him being the most convenient warframe for everyday usage, stuff that doesn't require specific builds or strats like exterminations or captures and stuff. He won't carry you to 10000 levels on survival but he's just very mobile and flexible. Him being one of the most fun frames to play after a rework and then seeing him being nerfed would be incredibly sad.

instead, please, PLEASE, consider reworking/tweaking other warframes, especially CC-focused ones, like Hydrioid(who also just looks like a glorified weaker sidegrade to Khora, she literally does all the same stuff but much better), that at the current moment are almost completely unusable due to the Eximus rework. 

since when is wukong op? I have to laugh here.
if someone thinks that popular = imba, then he has to .... you know what. such a person needs professional help!

and when it comes to damage... even inaros does much more damage because here dmg buff with heap strengh + crit arcane with self dmg aura + attack speed arcane is possible! hence big LOL.

and wunkung is only 2nd skill in my opinion. and even that doesn't help when rushing in the pub because i often have to wait for the group.

[cute_moth.npc]

14 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Enjoying some people getting mad over a nerf in a video game =/= Enjoying people losing their livelihood. Don't mix stuff. 

I guess we live in a world where people think that videogames are as important or even the same as real life issues... Following that logic, we all are potential murderers because we enjoy killing stuff in game.

I think Celestial Twin is the "Big offender" in his kit, it's too OP, it's like a Venari on roids that can use your weapon of choice.

I guess I just don't mind Wukong very much to be honest with you? I was mostly joking but now I see panic threads popping up about Wukong as well. This is going to be a very spicy drama! 

If the problem is the clone AoE'ing stuff to death then maybe the adjustments will fix it, but I guess I would rather play with one on the team than a Volt, Wisp, Khora or other Warframe with a really annoying movement skill or something they will use to get enemies stuck to the bottom of a ledge lol.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb DrBorris:

Why bring a DPS frame when you can just bring a launcher on Wukong and go fast. Why try and tank when everything is dead before it sees you. Why CC when... lol. Wukong is the perfect compliment to the current AoE meta, his kit isn't intrinsically broken.

you want to tell me wukong does more damage than saryn in def mission? not even a pimped harrow prime can do that.
and wukong does more damage in ext because he's one of the first to get to the enemies!

and cc makes a lot of sense. because it depends on the mission. mobile def on sp against ranged is hardly possible without top cc. aoe doesn't help much here because too much damage arrives.

and i want to see how you play sp mission vs ranged with typical sausages warframe with low armor. aoe is so imba.... wow!