It's time to nerf Wukong

[SneakyErvin]

People asking how Wukong is OP boggles my mind.

When you have a frame with the option to equip 2x massive scaling dps options there shouldnt be a question as to what makes that frame OP, or better worded imbalanced. AoE guns are already an issue, being able to use 2x of those increases the issue twofold.

I just hope they fix him in the way where you simply cannot play him with 2x of the same weapon active. Give him a dedicated loadout where you are forced to equip all his slots much like a specter, so if you run a gun he will use melee. 2x of the same weapon active should be exclusive to 2x exalted imo.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

14 hours ago, Tyreaus said:

 

You're skipping over "I had quoted...your hypothesis that Wukong is popular because he's accessible." Me mentioning Saryn was around the fact that she's generally considered easier to attain than Wukong Prime, but it's Wukong Prime that has the higher use rate. (Wukong Prime has a better use rate than Saryn Prime, too, so that's accessibility out of the equation altogether.) So that doesn't jive with the accessibility hypothesis.

As far as strength comparisons go, I don't have an investment in it whatsoever, but I want to point out it's a bit apples-to-oranges. Saryn wipes missions like Defense just fine, but that kit doesn't carry over quite so well into Exterminate and similar higher-mobility missions. Wukong's Celestial Twin has a much better mobility in that sense, but tends to struggle somewhat with some terrains present in more static missions like Defense.

1) I disagree, all one needs to do to attain Wukong (Base Wukong, which would be better for shield gating) is join a clan, get the prints and boom monkey time. Saryn on the other hand requires you to get to Sena,do all those fights for points, then fight Kela de thayn/RNG So, I'd still argue she's tougher to get.

 

2)  The point I keep trying to explain still stand's, nuke ability frames go bbbbbrrrrrr, and Wukong twin is nothing to cry over because it just like having one extra player in game, yes some times with a AOE nuke weapon but honestly if a real player shot at whatever with one I see no difference. And if there both using AOE's then My game play experience is the same as if there's a nuke frame on the team Saryn/Ember/Mesa  which is what I keep trying to say.     Ability based frames n, AOE weapons will still do what they do, even if DE does nerf Son Wukong.

 

I really don't know what y'all want in a Wukong "nerf" that wouldn't kill the character 😒. 

[(XBOX)ConfusingEel30]

The goal should be to make all warframes as desirable as wukong not make wukong as undesirable as grendel. 

Edit: And I don't even use wukong, he's in the bottom half of my used frames. I just hate DE's nerf first tell the community we're listening later approach 

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Edit: Forget what I said. I may have been a bit too quick to post and didn't cool off after being aggravated by something. I don't want to pretend I never said anything so the former post is in the spoiler.

  Hide contents

Ah yes. You are so smart. I can't believe you found such a clear nail in the coffin of this idea, there is no way around this that any mortal could come up with.

 

The OP shouldn't have to edit in obvious qualifiers to such a short post. If you can't give someone's idea any benefit of the doubt then you are at best a troll and at worst grossly ignorant to anyone's idea that isn't yours.

 

Ok , no issues , it's difficult to translate emotional quality and intention well into text at times and can be easily misinterpreted.

But just to highlight, being devil's advocate is a necessary part of any discussion , and while it is at times difficult to differentiate genuine criticism and mere complaints one should still look at all inputs on their own merits.

[AbyssalSerpent]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)ConfusingEel30 said:

The goal should be to make all warframes as desirable as wukong not make wukong as undesirable as grendel. 

Edit: And I don't even use wukong, he's in the bottom half of my used frames. I just hate DE's nerf first tell the community we're listening later approach 

Plus the fact that DE always goes overboard with their nerfs. Some I understand such as Maiming Strike, but it's basically garbage nowadays after its nerf. Same with Covert Lethality, which also became garbage after its unecessary nerf. Even though I never used Ember before, I hear that after her World on Fire nerf and even after her rework that she's still a low-tier frame. The Telos Boltace and Synoid Simulor also became garbage after their nerfs. I'm worried that Wukong will also meet the same fate and become a Hydroid 2.0 after his nerf.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb AbyssalSerpent:

Plus they always fail to see that Wukong's companion, even with an AoE weapon has the intellect of a walnut. I can't tell how many countless times I "died" because my Celestial Twin was doing who-knows-what instead of firing at enemies that are bombarding me.

It's reasons like this I quit this game last month: too many unnecessary nerfs without DE addressing the actual issue as to why things are "meta" or "overused" to begin with, constant content droughts and too much focus on fan service.

I say that too. the thing reacts like a grandmother.
and here was a boy who told me fairy tales about clone doing useful damage. but even a beginner can compare it to ai from the railjack crew... I even asked him if he plays with mele. 🤣

and the nerfs in warframe have always been brain dead. because popular things get destroyed. popular and not good things! and then people have invested a lot of resources in the equipment and they get screwed.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb AbyssalSerpent:

Plus the fact that DE always goes overboard with their nerfs. Some I understand such as Maiming Strike, but it's basically garbage nowadays after its nerf. Same with Covert Lethality, which also became garbage after its unecessary nerf. Even though I never used Ember before, I hear that after her World on Fire nerf and even after her rework that she's still a low-tier frame. The Telos Boltace and Synoid Simulor also became garbage after their nerfs. I'm worried that Wukong will also meet the same fate and become a Hydroid 2.0 after his nerf.

I do think it will be useless. because devs design heaps of junk and you, the players, have to be interested in it. otherwise there is no motivation to play the game at all.
wukong, like kuva nukor, will probably disappear from the game entirely. I didn't see the gun in game that year and I play every day.

the joke is that there are tons of pointless warframes out there. but why fix them? rather break something useful?

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

Hope it makes me see less of them in public, sorry @DeMonkey

[V2lkyr]

I wish they revealed where everyone is on that graph.

[0_The_F00l]

I am so very happy to see an acknowledgement at the very least from the Dev's.

If this is the direction that the new leadership is gonna take , then i am all in, gonna be a lot more engaging for sure.

For those complaining about "but he is not OP" are missing the point. It's not about who shows the biggest numbers of damage or is able soak said damage. 

It is about who does the most with the least effort required. Players with a preference of end result over the experience obviously gravitate towards such means.

So players that will likely be affected are the ones that are actually playing the game the least anyway.

"Oh but , the game is already so grindy" well tough luck Goldilocks , you will need a different bed to sleep in. The game is grindy cause you are able to bypass it, maybe if it's not as brain-dead easy the grind will get curbed.

I don't use crutch frames , (and wukong is most definitely that) for exactly this reason. You will be left feeling disabled when it's taken away.

I don't even know what the changes are yet , and i am still happy for it. Maybe I will actually start using it after the change.

[Tyreaus]

25 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

1) I disagree, all one needs to do to attain Wukong (Base Wukong, which would be better for shield gating) is join a clan, get the prints and boom monkey time. Saryn on the other hand requires you to get to Sena,do all those fights for points, then fight Kela de thayn/RNG So, I'd still argue she's tougher to get.

Talking about Wukong Prime, not base Wukong. And as I said: you can take acquisition difficulty out of the equation altogether by comparing Wukong Prime with Saryn Prime. Both being primes, those two have fairly equal challenge in acquiring. There's still a notable difference in usage. Ergo, "that doesn't jive with the accessibility hypothesis."

Going to skip over the second part because I said my piece on that.

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

I really don't know what y'all want in a Wukong "nerf" that wouldn't kill the character 😒. 

My personal suggestion has, largely, been:

1. Make Celestial Twin use ranged weapons only when the player assigns the twin a target, because its current mechanics are too passive for its benefit and I find mucking with a melee (or not using a melee if you want both to use ranged weapons) to be a touch awkward.

2. Put the invisibility / intangibility aspect of Cloud Walker into its augment (which gives invisibility to the team so it fits), and give us some pleasant "surfing on a cloud" visuals for non-augmented Cloud Walker.

3. Upgrade Iron Staff, for example allowing Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, and probably give a similar treatment to many other exalted melee weapons that desire a bit of an upgrade.

And I'd consider #2 to be entirely optional. I think that would make it better balanced when considering the closest alternatives like Ivara or Titania, but Warframe being Warframe, that level of balance finesse is not terribly necessary.

[-Moctezuma-]

Thougths

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, vanaukas said:

You can change your name but you can't change your brain, Battle.Mage.

Thought the grammar looked familiar lol.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb makaloff95:

problem with these propositions is that they would nerf other weapons that dont deserve it, i get that people think AoE is a issue but this would be a hit towards all weapons. No need to blanket nerf beacuse of a few weapons.

Only time i use a explosive weapon is if im doing SP (usually do longer runs so need something that can eat throught dmg) but outside of that i dont see the need for them. Sure go ahead and nerf AoE, all you do is switching the meta and most likely meele will be top dog again with heavy attack builds.

I agree. lenz is already so senseless and then it will be a complete joke.
acceltra is a viable weapon, although damage should be much higher. and then it becomes pointless too.
the same with new aoe weapons from the new bounties. tenet will also be hit hard because the weapons have rather poor performance without dmg/reload buffs.

and I don't feel like mele at all. mostly because it means suicide for low armor warframes on sp.
stropha's heavy attack is my favorite at the moment. but that is no longer up-to-date.

and I don't think much of this meta nonsense. because in warframe almost everything is soloable or even everything.
what will change is the number of players. this will go down drastically. because who wants to play a mission yawning like a snail? and the enemies have lousy drops. then have fun farming until your fingers bleed.

[Giagantic]

58 minutes ago, AbyssalSerpent said:

Plus the fact that DE always goes overboard with their nerfs. Some I understand such as Maiming Strike, but it's basically garbage nowadays after its nerf. Same with Covert Lethality, which also became garbage after its unecessary nerf. Even though I never used Ember before, I hear that after her World on Fire nerf and even after her rework that she's still a low-tier frame. The Telos Boltace and Synoid Simulor also became garbage after their nerfs. I'm worried that Wukong will also meet the same fate and become a Hydroid 2.0 after his nerf.

Just correcting you, Telos Boltace is still an extremely good melee that is only held back by it's IPS weighting being Puncture heavy, as a melee it still shreds and the utility of it's slide functions is effective. Though it is arguable whether the old Telos Boltace is even broken without Maiming Strike to bolster it but that is only my theorycrafting.

[CosoMalvadoNG]

I

12 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

never seen verglas with top riven? he destroys single target on sp in record time.
and most of the missions i play with wukong don't even last 3 min.
and if you think clone does usable damage...... 🤣 but if you play with mele... 🤦‍♂️ok..... 🙄

So maybe inform yourself first and don't spread nonsense. this only confuses the players and they actually think that wukong is an afk something.

OK and that's supposed to make the clone less broken than it is? 
Of course, as bananas are yellow, mangoes are also, that's why they can be compared, of course, everything makes sense with your logic.
 

U can do a suv in 3 min... wow. No? maybe DEF? no? aaaa only spy and capture i understand but i think that when you said moss you were referring to the majority sorry my bad.

[-Moctezuma-]

32 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am so very happy to see an acknowledgement at the very least from the Dev's.

If this is the direction that the new leadership is gonna take , then i am all in, gonna be a lot more engaging for sure.

For those complaining about "but he is not OP" are missing the point. It's not about who shows the biggest numbers of damage or is able soak said damage. 

It is about who does the most with the least effort required. Players with a preference of end result over the experience obviously gravitate towards such means.

So players that will likely be affected are the ones that are actually playing the game the least anyway.

"Oh but , the game is already so grindy" well tough luck Goldilocks , you will need a different bed to sleep in. The game is grindy cause you are able to bypass it, maybe if it's not as brain-dead easy the grind will get curbed.

I don't use crutch frames , (and wukong is most definitely that) for exactly this reason. You will be left feeling disabled when it's taken away.

I don't even know what the changes are yet , and i am still happy for it. Maybe I will actually start using it after the change.

agreed

[(XBOX)ActualGeist]

I understand Pablo wanting to address Grendel because he has the lowest depth usage, but my sad boi Hydroid has the lowest combined depth and breadth usage (essentially the opposite of Wukong who has the highest combined depth and breadth). So why no mention of him being addressed? Does he really think the changes from 31.2 fixed him?

[Numerikuu]

22 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Atlas has rumblers which are also worthless with or without the augment.

Yeah, no 🤣

[Jarriaga]

3 hours ago, (PSN)isbergen said:

How about this: Wukong is very easy to craft. You just need to join a dojo. Grendel you have to complete the whole star chart

Pablo said in the recent Brozime interview about the chart and upcoming nerfs that DE have charts that take into account the inventory of MR25+ players when measuring if a choice is due to low access to an item due to grind requirements vs comfort picks if both items are present since MR25+ players pretty much have a near-full inventory. They can measure just how much you still decided to use Wukong after you got Grendel.

[Myscho]

Wondering why they even bother to change some Warframes to stand bether than now, nerf that, another one will be overused, its infinite loop

[Numerikuu]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)ActualGeist said:

I understand Pablo wanting to address Grendel because he has the lowest depth usage, but my sad boi Hydroid has the lowest combined depth and breadth usage (essentially the opposite of Wukong who has the highest combined depth and breadth). So why no mention of him being addressed? Does he really think the changes from 31.2 fixed him?

He did point him out being there with Grendel. I'm hopeful that he'll be touched on eventually because imo he has one of the coolest themes in the game (among best deluxe skin).

I still use and love him, but damn he needs a refresh.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, AbyssalSerpent said:

I'm worried that Wukong will also meet the same fate and become a Hydroid 2.0 after his nerf.

No worries on that point as his base design won't let that actually happen as he isn't damage based.

Cloudwalker might see some tuning/adjustments and the clone will almost assuredly get tuned as it regards use of aoe.

Hydroid is closer to simply being neglected because of his loot abilities than anything else imo.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

does anyone know where we can find the graph they use on the vid? I want to look at certain usage rates.

[Josh486]

Wukong isn't even that good but seeing people cry about this makes me smile a bit