It's time to nerf Wukong

[DrBorris]

34 minutes ago, Voltage said:

My comment was more of "this will always be the case because that's just the game". I don't disagree that changes should be made, but the underlying problem is the very foundation of their mission design. Some new flavor of AoE is always right around the corner.

If you nerf the top you by definition reduce the power ceiling. When the power ceiling is lowered the pool of available power is then stretched out, bringing all things closer to the top then they previously were. While it is not a certainty, this potentially opens the space for strategies that were not viable prior to become viable. The result is by no means a guarantee that the game will be in a healthy state, it is however highly likely that it will be healthier.

The presence of a new king does not mean that the situation is the same. Unless there are two things at the top and you only nerf one the situation will be different. Some progress is better than no progress.

 

The goal of a nerf isn't to make a thing bad. It is to create more breathing room for other things. Dismissing a nerf and saying that the only thing that will have true change is an alteration of mission design is unfair. A new flavor of AoE is around the corner but that AoE is less powerful than what is currently on top, that matters.

 

I don't think your opinion is as binary as I am making it out here, I've seen how you talk about balance in other posts. I'm mostly just picking apart "a new best will be used" as a counter-argument to nerfs. While the statement is true it is not a counter to nerfs, despite what so many seem to think. This is me working on a copy-pasta for whenever someone says the dumb thing. Let me know if I can word it better.

[Silligoose]

6 minutes ago, L3512 said:

I'm not so sure the devs care about SP.

Q: What is your preferred build for Gyre?

PABLO: I think she’s pretty balanced. She does need a little bit of everything, like, she needs power strength to build the crit buff from her 3, and build the damage… You also want some range so that the balls reach out quite a bit and so that the lightning chains together. So you kind of want a little bit of everything, I find. I guess the main thing that you can probably cut down on is… maybe Streamline… but you probably don’t need Fleeting Expertise in my opinion, because with her 3 you have that passive energy recharge.

So I think in general - at least, the way I’ve been using her - I’m mainly not going for the 75% efficiency. I’m generally going with Streamline, and that’s as far as I go in terms of efficiency. Even Flow… I’ve used her with and without Flow and I don’t know that she needs it. But yeah, I do have a build with Flow and - my brain is failing me right now - the one that takes energy when you take lethal damage. With that, she can stay alive quite a bit longer.

Q: Do you have a favorite subsume Ability on Gyre?

PABLO: It depends. Obviously, everyone uses… what’s it called? Gloom? Everyone uses Gloom because that kind of helps you with survivability in general. I don’t know… I feel like there are some Warframes where you can definitely change the playstyle by subsuming an Ability, or maybe there’s an Ability that you just don’t use generally. So with some Warframes it’s easier to just get rid of one, but I feel like [Gyre’s] Abilities work so well together. If you replace her 2 or her 1, you’re reducing the amount of electricity procs that you’re dealing. And by doing that, you’re basically lowering the damage of your other Abilities that require those electricity procs to have the crit chance. So that kind of makes it complicated for you to take off an Ability. I feel like her Abilities are tied together pretty well.

Actually, talking about survivability, one thing I have tried… I replaced her 1st Ability with the Ability from Garuda. So basically I can do the healing totem thing. Whenever I feel I am getting overwhelmed or destroyed, I can just do that, which heals like crazy. That definitely helps a lot.

https://www.warframe.com/news/gyre-qa-highlights

Thank you. This makes me want to see Pablo make some comparison plays and share thoughts on those plays, even more.

I agree - to me it appears they still don't care much for SP or deeper lategame balance, and I still see that as their folly.

[(XBOX)sinamanthediva]

On 2022-08-04 at 7:20 AM, Koed said:

But also the game has heavily shifted towards grouping abilities like Larva

I dont even use Larva on my Nidus, I use Ensnare as you can recast it as often as you like and no reduction in range from helminth.   I don't see many people using grouping powers ever to be honest so not quite sure where you are getting your info from.  There's no need to group with the Ogris and Primed Firestorm in your hand.   I'm not against some of your suggestions and AOE does need some fixing.  Just bring back the ability to do self damage and watch the numbers drop.  Of course there will be the Rhino users that  don't have to worry about such things, but doubt everyone will start using Rhino and other no self-damage Warframes exclusively, just to use their Ogris and Bramma with ease.  More than likely nothing will change as DE still makes a tidy profit despite Bugs and AOE existing so they don't have much incentive to fix what aint broke, for them at least!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

[Voltage]

38 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

If you nerf the top you by definition reduce the power ceiling. When the power ceiling is lowered the pool of available power is then stretched out, bringing all things closer to the top then they previously were. While it is not a certainty, this potentially opens the space for strategies that were not viable prior to become viable. The result is by no means a guarantee that the game will be in a healthy state, it is however highly likely that it will be healthier.

The presence of a new king does not mean that the situation is the same. Unless there are two things at the top and you only nerf one the situation will be different. Some progress is better than no progress.

 

The goal of a nerf isn't to make a thing bad. It is to create more breathing room for other things. Dismissing a nerf and saying that the only thing that will have true change is an alteration of mission design is unfair. A new flavor of AoE is around the corner but that AoE is less powerful than what is currently on top, that matters.

 

I don't think your opinion is as binary as I am making it out here, I've seen how you talk about balance in other posts. I'm mostly just picking apart "a new best will be used" as a counter-argument to nerfs. While the statement is true it is not a counter to nerfs, despite what so many seem to think. This is me working on a copy-pasta for whenever someone says the dumb thing. Let me know if I can word it better.

I don't necessarily agree that changing things up doesn't result in the same situation overall. I mean, Synoid Simulor was nerfed how many years ago now? And I would argue the current AoE situation is exactly same, but with broader weapons. I hope DE doesn't overlook Status Immunity as well when examining these problems.

[Tyreaus]

50 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Edit: Would that be a concern for you and if so why? Which aspects of play at lower levels would you be anxious about seeing at higher levels of play within the context of this balance discussion?

I, personally, wouldn't lose out. Largely because I use stupid OP weapons like Xata's Whisper Phenmor, which will treat Steel Path like Starchart anyway. But also because I don't find much entertainment in trying to find optimal solutions beyond a certain level of functionality (e.g. I tend to avoid AoE), and trying to stretch sub-optimal solutions isn't entertaining to me. I could take it or leave it.

But others do find entertainment in that sort of optimizing and stretching. It's considered a challenge by some to uncover what works and weed out that which doesn't. Of course, balancing late-game elements doesn't need to go so far as to wreck that entirely - I see it more as a continuum between the state we're at now and the extreme where everything works and we know it does from the get-go. But there is still that possibility of overshooting the goal, succeeding in garnishing better respect for investments, but wrecking the fun of discovery and pushing the envelope. That, I see, seems like cause for some caution.

Not to mention the extra wrench of the "endless endgame". All things considered, the performance of Warframes in Starchart is fine. There's discrepancies in performance but, by and large, you'll get your proverbial money's worth. Things break down in Steel Path. But to what level? 500? 1,000? As with the introduction of Steel Path itself, we continue meeting and exceeding the standard and make that the new standard. Gyre can't do Steel Path to level 200 so we fix her up to do well there, but then the next threshold is 1,000, so we buff her again, so on and so forth. It seems like the only endpoint to that process is either level cap, where the game can't actually allow us to push the bar higher, or the point where everything ends up on equal footing and we meet the extreme "everything works and there's no discovery or discrepancy".

[MutoManiac]

When DE put up our user/profile stats on their web page a few months ago, mine were all wrong. I main Wukong and DE thinks I main Xaku which I love but play that frame very little and it’s a big difference on the amount. I wouldn’t give their stats much credence, as who knows how they compile them. So Wukong may not in fact be the most popular frame. I like others, see Wisp, Nezha and Saryn way more.

[Tiltskillet]

^{To the mods:}

Spoiler

 ^{I originally made this as a reply in someone else's thread a few hours ago, but when I hit "post" the thread disappeared, along with at least one other pertaining to Wukong.    I'm guessing this was done to eventually merge the threads, but I waited a while, and they haven't shown back up yet.  Sorry if I'm making things harder for you.  This doesn't need to be kept separate AFAIC.  Just please, please don't make me type it again. :P}

Really, really cool of Pablo to take the time to do this, and nice of Brozime to host.

Here are most of my notes, but I really recommend watching it.  Better to get it in Pablo's own words and in context rather than my interpretation.  I'm sure I've distorted or misunderstood some of what he said, for which I apologize.  And I left out a ton of interesting things Pablo talked about when they weren't easily distilled into  bullet points.  

Some of the background to this is a few tweets Pablo made recently pertaining to Wukong: https://twitter.com/PabloMakes/status/1555571894929264640 There is some more explanation of the chart in the video.

Time stamps are -very- approximate.

Frame usage:

• They're aware of access issues with frames that can account for differences in usage
  • They try to account for this in various ways, including the usage of high MR players who mostly have access to everything
• Wukong usage stays almost exactly the same at high MR levels
• Eximus rework didn't significantly change frame usage.  21:00
• Most surprising frame usage: Loki.  Below average in breadth of usage, high in depth of usage. 1:10:00
  • Better depth than Ivara, worse breadth of usage.
  • (Basically, not everybody uses Loki, but some people use him a ton.)

Upcoming frame changes (and not-changes):

• All 3 starters getting some changes.  Volt seems to be in the best shape, so probably will change least. 27:00
  • Changes will be more beginner oriented
  • Pull will be awesome?? 48:00
• Grendel on the verge of too powerful in some ways, so boosts to him are dangerous.  32:00
• Opposes frame augment slot; likes hard choices using augments can entail.  60:00
  • He's aware this means some augments need to be better, and some more boosts to these are coming.
• Interesting mechanics similar to the newest weapon arcanes coming soon?...but for frames.  1:08:00
• In perfect Pablo world he'd rework Chroma and Inaros to give them more dimension.  1:57:00
  • Doesn't sound like anything is planned though, partly because players are attached to what they have.

Upcoming other changes (and not changes):

• AoE:  would like to emphasize big moments rather than constant spam, especially with new weapons. 15:00
• Still concerned about energy economy, but anything happening is a long way off.  28:00
• Something, or a class of things that is really neglected is going to be buffed next update. ?? I think the context suggests a weapon class.  54:00
• Veilbreaker weekly "sorties".  Steel Path level content.  1:17:00
• Talking about ways to on-board new players more quickly, perhaps by bypassing some of the modding system temporarily? Sometime next year.  1:55:00

Miscellaneous:

• Pablo tries not to look at sales data as he doesn't want that to influence design.  36:00
• Warframe doesn't prioritize balance very highly.  lol. 44:00
• Favorite reworks (maybe): 1:30:00
  • Nidus (but maybe too spammy)
  • Harrow (but maybe too complex)
• Reality of current game is anything good enough to kill Grineer is good enough to kill everything. 1:46:00

^{All the above notes, but pretty much just in playback order for reference:}

• Spoiler

  • They're aware of access issues with frames that can account for differences in usage
    • They try to account for this in various ways, including the usage of high MR players who mostly have access to everything
  • Wukong usage stays almost exactly the same at high MR levels
  • AoE:  would like to emphasize big moments rather than constant spam, especially with new weapons. 15:00
  • Eximus rework didn't significantly change frame usage.  21:00
  • All 3 starters getting some changes.  Volt seems to be in the best shape, so probably will change least. 27:00
    • Changes will be more beginner oriented
    • Pull will be awesome?? 48:00
  • Still concerned about energy economy, but anything happening is a long way off.  28:00
  • Grendel on the verge of too powerful in some ways, so boosts to him are dangerous.  34:00
  • Something, or a class of things that is really neglected is going to be buffed next update.  ???  54:00
  • Opposes frame augment slot; likes hard choices using augments can entail. 60:00
    • He's aware this means some augments need to be better, and some more boosts to these are coming.
  • Interesting mechanics similar to the newest weapon arcanes coming soon?...but for frames.  1:08:00
  • Most surprising frame usage: Loki.  Below average in breadth of usage, high in depth of usage. 1:10:00
    • Better depth than Ivara, worse breadth of usage.
    • (Basically, not everybody uses Loki, but some people use him a ton.)
  • Veilbreaker weekly "sorties".  Steel Path level content.  1:17:00
  • Reality of current game is anything good enough to kill Grineer is good enough to kill everything. 1:46:00
  • Talking about ways to on-board new players more quickly, perhaps by bypassing some of the modding system temporarily? Sometime next year.  155:00
  • In perfect Pablo world he'd rework Chroma and Inaros to give them more dimension.   1:57:00
    • Doesn't sound like anything is planned though, partly because players are attached to what they have.

[Numerounius]

And we are now at the point where we are merging threads despite the original comment bearing no resemblance to the now defunct later thread's original comments.

Why can't we just having a separate thread talking about each separate issue? Rather than merging them all into one thread where the original comment only points to one of those topics and is devoid of the rest.

Just at least keep a separate thread for each bit of new information please:

AOE discussion

Wukong discussion

Brozime video discussion

Graph discussion

Any new comments by DE talking about buffs to certain frames or abilities off-site

etc.

 

There all threads that are able to bring out different talking points that don't need to be merged into one thread that only talks about one of these issues and then forcing people to read 10+ pages of comments to figure out where the current discussion lies thus leading people to create even more new threads since no mention of the topic is seen anywhere since it has been buried.

Its okay if side discussions occur on topics but new topics with new information should really be a thread on its own. Or at least some way of compiling all of the important information together up front instead of burying it in a couple of pages of irrelevant comments.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Eximus rework didn't significantly change frame usage.  21:00

This is the one thing I doubt. I did have it explained in a way that made sense to me though.

When you kill the last of a species technically not much changes.

Basically CC frames were so bad that were rare before the changes and now they are extinct.

I really want to see the pick rates for the frames at MR 16-20+ 

I've completely dropped (3x umbral)Frost because of the changes. Why take him to defend low levels when I can nuke everything? Why take him to SP where his bubble gets shredded and I cant stop the one threat(eximus) by armor stripping or ccing them?

In order to get a semi-decent bubble, I have to Arcane tanker, warcry and then cast with 255% strength. No mods give him enough bubble hp to compete with gara or limbo. And neither of these is better than a tank with a good gun or a dps frame.

[Uhkretor]

... I always tell people to keep the noise down... And then I crack myself up when they don't keep it down and end up suffering consequences because of it, as small as they may be...

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

35 minutes ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

When DE put up our user/profile stats on their web page a few months ago, mine were all wrong. I main Wukong and DE thinks I main Xaku which I love but play that frame very little and it’s a big difference on the amount. I wouldn’t give their stats much credence, as who knows how they compile them. So Wukong may not in fact be the most popular frame. I like others, see Wisp, Nezha and Saryn way more.

where were the stats?

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

My comment was more of "this will always be the case because that's just the game". I don't disagree that changes should be made, but the underlying problem is the very foundation of their mission design. Some new flavor of AoE is always right around the corner.

Yup. The problem is that players don't support that way of thinking so DE doesn't bother to examine it either.

Instead, everyone runs around with hammers thinking they see raised nails at every step.

That's not to say tuning isn't necessary on this matter but, instead, that any tuning they do will still fall flat in Co-Op and the folks using WuKong will move to the next room clearing tactic while the disgruntled come back into the forums and complain more.

We know this is the case because it is precisely what has happened every other time they nerfed stuff due to complaints from players in Co-Op.

Wukong might be a problem but the real problem is Co-Op itself.
 

[Tiltskillet]

29 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

This is the one thing I doubt. I did have it explained in a way that made sense to me though.

When you kill the last of a species technically not much changes.

Basically CC frames were so bad that were rare before the changes and now they are extinct.

I don't know.  I'd still think that would show up, unless there is some other issue with their data or the way they classify frames.  I've been skeptical about this in the past, like when Pablo said a few years ago the Nezha overhaul didn't make a significant difference in his usage rate.

Anyway, another possible explanation:  people are using the same frames, but they're not using them the same way.  Most CC frames have some other things they can rely on in their kits, and all have access to brute force through their weapon slots.  If I was as crazy about Nyx as I am about Banshee, I'd find a way to keep playing her as much as ever, I think.  That wouldn't mean the eximus rework was good for Nyx, or even a good idea in general; only that I'm somewhat adaptable and the game is fairly forgiving.

If so, they might see more of a difference as time goes on.  Players eventually drift toward the more efficient, less CC-oriented frames, and new players don't tend to get attached to the CC specialists in the first place.

[MutoManiac]

9 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

where were the stats?

On Warframe.com, they had a link. It was part of the anniversary stuff IIRC. It was not at all what my in game stats were and every other person had the issue.

[trst]

Wow is it refreshing to see someone make a video post thread and actually provide information on it. Thank you for taking the effort to do so.

 

As for the video itself, it's nice to hear a dev talking about addressing issues like this. But as per usual with DE it'll be their actual implementation that matters and if they'll miss the mark completely (again) and annoy players on both sides of the fence.

Which is exactly what I'm expecting to happen with AOE; DE nerfs it enough for the pro AOE crowd to never stop complaining about it while not enough to actually fix the issues players against it have. Thus nothing changes outside of the number of complaint threads.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't know.  I'd still think that would show up, unless there is some other issue with their data or the way they classify frames.  I've been skeptical about this in the past, like when Pablo said the Nezha overhaul didn't make a significant difference in his usage rate.

Anyway, another possible explanation:  people are using the same frames, but they're not using them the same way.  Most CC frames have some other things they can rely on in their kits, and all have access to brute force through their weapon slots.  If I was as crazy about Nyx as I am about Banshee, I'd find a way to keep playing her as much as ever, I think.

I tried that with frost but before it was a juggle between energy regen, using his 4 to cc and strip, and keeping a bubble up. But now? My 4 doesnt CC eximus so i have to focus fire them having less time to take advantage of the strip. If i leave them be for a split second they pop my bubble or sap my energy, which for frost is a death sentence. That means no bubble, no cc, no avalanche protection which I use. I have for as long as my shield lasts to recast something, and the bubble requires extra work to be semi decent. I need some breathing room DE. 

As far having other ways to play CC frames, I could play Frost with a true damage bubble, but thats a gimmick build. 

[Tiltskillet]

5 minutes ago, trst said:

Wow is it refreshing to see someone make a video post thread and actually provide information on it.

Pablo provided the information! All I hope is I haven't provided too much misinformation. :P

[DrBorris]

10 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

We know this is the case because it is precisely what has happened every other time they nerfed stuff due to complaints from players in Co-Op.

I've been here for awhile, I've been active on the Forums for many, many years. Never have I seen a meta so oppressive in game nor have I ever seen a topic so often brought up. This really isn't just another WoF, WoF was only ever low level clear.

Wukong is everywhere. 10m+ AoE launchers are everywhere. The state of the game is unprecedented, denying that isn't useful. Blaming core design for current problems is, to be frank, ridiculous. The core of the game hasn't changed in many years (for better and for worse), what has changed is our access to ranged, high damage, large AoE weapons. And unlike most of the old topics people have complained about, the current AoE meta is having trickle down effects on the balance of only tangentally related systems.

Wukong isn't used the most because Wukong is crazy strong, Wukong is used the most because an AI can use a AoE launcher and he can quickly move through a level and spam large AoE death. Khora's entire kit revolves around her 1 being a ranged AoE attack. K Zarr can both reach higher range and damage than Khora's 1 while also being able to be equipped on any frame.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

"Grendel on the verge of too powerful in some ways, so boosts to him are dangerous.

Opposes frame augment slot; likes hard choices using augments can entail"

Thank you!

Edit: And yes thank you for the summary @Tiltskillet!

[p_silveira]

4 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

maybe it depends on the country. i rarely see him. maybe relics on asia will be played with it.
but in europe wisp is very popular.

I believe Pablo showed the global usage.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

I tried that with frost but before it was a juggle between energy regen, using his 4 to cc and strip, and keeping a bubble up. But now? My 4 doesnt CC eximus so i have to focus fire them having less time to take advantage of the strip.

I assume you're talking Steel Path?  I don't play Frost much, but IIRC his damage holds up in the Star Chart.  Yes, that's faint praise!  But I'm thinking that's probably the vast majority of content that people are playing, so another explanation for usage rates not having dramatic shifts.

[p_silveira]

1 hour ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

When DE put up our user/profile stats on their web page a few months ago, mine were all wrong. I main Wukong and DE thinks I main Xaku which I love but play that frame very little and it’s a big difference on the amount.

I believe those status were only for our usage in 2021 (it was in the end of 2021 iirc), not our total usage throught the years.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

Just now, Tiltskillet said:

I assume you're talking Steel Path?  I don't play Frost much, but IIRC his damage holds up in the Star Chart.  Yes, that's faint praise!  But I'm thinking that's probably the vast majority of content that people are playing, so another explanation for usage rates not having dramatic shifts.

Yeah I mean SP. His bubble holds well til about level 80. Then their damage outscales the bubble.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Yeah I mean SP. His bubble holds well til about level 80. Then their damage outscales the bubble.

No, it doesn't. Please take some time to read about Frost on the wiki.

[Rakosta_Kai]

7 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I've been here for awhile, I've been active on the Forums for many, many years. Never have I seen a meta so oppressive in game nor have I ever seen a topic so often brought up. This really isn't just another WoF, WoF was only ever low level clear.

No argument or question as to your credentials... It's not our first interaction and I tend to respect your opinions on things.
I don't agree with your assertions as I distinctly remember both Mesa and Ash issues actually being at least as bad (if not worse) and Nova and Saryn definitely being even worse and more loudly complained about for even longer.
Saryn's were so bad that general power creep is the only thing that eventually quieted folks down.

The fact remains that DE can nerf Wukong all they want and the core issues with AOE and Co-Op won't have changed a lick at the end of the day and people will still be complaining.
The difference merely being that the behaviors causing the complaints will then have gone back to requiring more effort.

That's not an assertion to not tune WuKong insomuch as it is a hope that they don't actually stop there and think up elegant solutions to finally nip this issue in the bud for good.