It's time to nerf Wukong

[(PSN)isbergen]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

That title is atrocious, grammatical errors make me die on the inside.

Perhaps English is not the OP's native language? Certainly reads that way to me. But good on you for calling out the grammar of an Internet forum post.

As for Wukong, I'd like to see usage breakdown by territory. Pablo's charts do not tell the whole story. Wukong is hugely popular in Asia outside of Warframe, so it would make sense he is used by a majority of Asian players and that constitutes a very large population.

[killerKronos23]

41 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Pablo interview with Brozime last weekend.

Oh!? I work weekends so I must of missed this. well I guess I gotta look for it now.

[(PSN)c1234567890alvi]

While I do enjoy the game getting more challenging, I would rather see it through reworked content/new content with more challenging mechanics (gimme back those raids) than through nerfs affecting everyone.

I wouldn't support that view that Warframe has only recently gotten braindead, there were always pretty...efficient farming options in the game (Mesa + Mag, Maiming Strike, Nuke Trinity, Old Ash, shall I elaborate further?).

Problems, I see emerge when Nerfing Wukong and AoE:

-More work for the same/less loot (Warframe drop rates and rotations have already become pretty bad over time as is)

-Resource loss (resources invested in respective setups are pretty much wasted and new setups cost further resources, a nightmare for somewhat new and casual players who are short on time and resources)

-without a massive buff to single targets in the same instance, we'll inevitably end up back in a melee meta (like in 2020/early 21, which they wanted to get away from. And for the record: it will not lead to more players playing single targets, since they are pretty much unviable without building entire setups around them, which is bad)

So yeah, be careful HOW you nerf I guess

[Tiltskillet]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)isbergen said:

Perhaps English is not the OP's native language? Certainly reads that way to me. But good on you for calling out the grammar of an Internet forum post.

As for Wukong, I'd like to see usage breakdown by territory. Pablo's charts do not tell the whole story. Wukong is hugely popular in Asia outside of Warframe, so it would make sense he is used by a majority of Asian players and that constitutes a very large population.

I don't doubt any of that, and I'd love to see more detailed stats.  But playing in NA, I'd still say Wukong is easily the most common frame I see in pubs.  I think Wisp is #2, but a couple of steps back.

[(PSN)isbergen]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

But playing in NA, I'd still say Wukong is easily the most common frame

I'm in NA and he doesn't appear as the outlier that Pablos says he is. The majority of the time, if there's a WuKong, it's me and he's only 3.5% usage for me (I have all frames). I see Wisp far more often than Wukong. Maybe Playstation is different than PC though.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2022-08-09 at 9:29 AM, killerKronos23 said:

Oh!? I work weekends so I must of missed this. well I guess I gotta look for it now.

It's a great interview.  Here are my notes about it, but I really recommend getting as much as you can in Pablo's own words

Time stamps are -very- approximate.

Frame usage:

• They're aware of access issues with frames that can account for differences in usage
  • They try to account for this in various ways, including the usage of high MR players who mostly have access to everything
• Wukong usage stays almost exactly the same at high MR levels
• Eximus rework didn't significantly change frame usage.  21:00
• Most surprising frame usage: Loki.  Below average in breadth of usage, high in depth of usage. 1:10:00
  • Better depth than Ivara, worse breadth of usage.
  • (Basically, not everybody uses Loki, but some people use him a ton.)

Upcoming frame changes (and not-changes):

• All 3 starters getting some changes.  Volt seems to be in the best shape, so probably will change least. 27:00
  • Changes will be more beginner oriented
  • Pull will be awesome?? 48:00
• Grendel on the verge of too powerful in some ways, so boosts to him are dangerous.  32:00
• Opposes frame augment slot; likes hard choices using augments can entail.  59:00
  • He's aware this means some augments need to be better, and some more boosts to these are coming.
• Interesting mechanics similar to the newest weapon arcanes coming soon?...but for frames.  1:08:00
• In perfect Pablo world he'd rework Chroma and Inaros to give them more dimension.  1:57:00
  • Doesn't sound like anything is planned though, partly because players are attached to what they have.

Upcoming other changes (and not changes):

• AoE:  would like to emphasize big moments rather than constant spam, especially with new weapons. 15:00
• Still concerned about energy economy, but anything happening is a long way off.  28:00
• Something, or a class of things that is really neglected is going to be buffed next update. ?? I think the context suggests a weapon class.  54:00
• Veilbreaker weekly "sorties".  Steel Path level content.  1:17:00
• Talking about ways to on-board new players more quickly, perhaps by bypassing some of the modding system temporarily? Sometime next year.  1:55:00

Miscellaneous:

• Pablo tries not to look at sales data as he doesn't want that to influence design.  36:00
• Warframe doesn't prioritize balance very highly.  lol. 44:00
• Favorite reworks (maybe): 1:30:00
  • Nidus (but maybe too spammy)
  • Harrow (but maybe too complex)
• Reality of current game is anything good enough to kill Grineer is good enough to kill everything. 1:46:0

[Tyreaus]

Just to clear something up because it comes up...far too often:

When people are talking "AFK"ing with Wukong, about 99% of the time, it's not about literally going AFK. There's still AFK detection that disables the clone if you stand still. You can't go totally AFK.

What they're talking about is more along the lines of the game becoming a walking simulator. You still input - you have to to avoid the AFK detection - but the required input amounts to just walking around. The rest of the game plays itself. (Quite literally if you program a quick macro to move a bit in something like Defense...)

This is the sort of "AFK" gameplay that happened with Ember's World on Fire. You'll notice that's not present in the game any more. You'll also notice that common "next worst offenders", like Saryn, don't run into this. Spores runs out of targets to kill and requires Miasma once in a while to ensure spread, at minimum - though you're usually having to manage Spores damage going too out of control and wiping a tile, extinguishing its own targets. Even if it's easy, you're doing more than just walking.

That's why the buck usually stops at Wukong.

[Doomyo89]

56 minutes ago, (PSN)IndianChiefJeff said:

That title is atrocious, grammatical errors make me die on the inside. Day by day, night after night, I fear the internet will be the death of me someday.

oh cmoon man im not cearly a english guy. 

[Doomyo89]

1 minute ago, Tiltskillet said:

It's a great interview.  Here are my notes about it, but I really recommend getting as much as you can in Pablo's own words

Time stamps are -very- approximate.

Frame usage:

• They're aware of access issues with frames that can account for differences in usage
  • They try to account for this in various ways, including the usage of high MR players who mostly have access to everything
• Wukong usage stays almost exactly the same at high MR levels
• Eximus rework didn't significantly change frame usage.  21:00
• Most surprising frame usage: Loki.  Below average in breadth of usage, high in depth of usage. 1:10:00
  • Better depth than Ivara, worse breadth of usage.
  • (Basically, not everybody uses Loki, but some people use him a ton.)

Upcoming frame changes (and not-changes):

• All 3 starters getting some changes.  Volt seems to be in the best shape, so probably will change least. 27:00
  • Changes will be more beginner oriented
  • Pull will be awesome?? 48:00
• Grendel on the verge of too powerful in some ways, so boosts to him are dangerous.  34:0
• Opposes frame augment slot; likes hard choices using augments can entail.  60:00
  • He's aware this means some augments need to be better, and some more boosts to these are coming.
• Interesting mechanics similar to the newest weapon arcanes coming soon?...but for frames.  1:08:00
• In perfect Pablo world he'd rework Chroma and Inaros to give them more dimension.  1:57:00
  • Doesn't sound like anything is planned though, partly because players are attached to what they have.

Upcoming other changes (and not changes):

• AoE:  would like to emphasize big moments rather than constant spam, especially with new weapons. 15:00
• Still concerned about energy economy, but anything happening is a long way off.  28:00
• Something, or a class of things that is really neglected is going to be buffed next update. ?? I think the context suggests a weapon class.  54:00
• Veilbreaker weekly "sorties".  Steel Path level content.  1:17:00
• Talking about ways to on-board new players more quickly, perhaps by bypassing some of the modding system temporarily? Sometime next year.  1:55:00

Miscellaneous:

• Pablo tries not to look at sales data as he doesn't want that to influence design.  36:00
• Warframe doesn't prioritize balance very highly.  lol. 44:00
• Favorite reworks (maybe): 1:30:00
  • Nidus (but maybe too spammy)
  • Harrow (but maybe too complex)
• Reality of current game is anything good enough to kill Grineer is good enough to kill everything. 1:46:0

so they are trying to force players to change playstyles? What? i have my own playstyle how i want to play my game why DE would care if i want to use wukong? i like it and it looks cool 

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)isbergen said:

I'm in NA and he doesn't appear as the outlier that Pablos says he is. The majority of the time, if there's a WuKong, it's me and he's only 3.5% usage for me (I have all frames). I see Wisp far more often than Wukong. Maybe Playstation is different than PC though.

Looking at the stats for 2021, yeah, he was still #1 on PS (and XB) but it's much closer: https://www.warframe.com/2021stats

I wonder why that difference?  It's the reverse of what I'd think. 

I've always thought people deeply exaggerated the use of botting and sophisticated macroing in this game, but that's a possible explanation that comes to mind.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, Doomyo89 said:

so they are trying to force players to change playstyles?

I wouldn't say so, but we might have different definitions of "force" and "playstyle".  I'd say they want to influence people's choices, see more variety, and discourage a specific kind of passive play.  Hopefully they're not too heavy-handed, and hopefully they improve a few things about Wukong too.  A few things Pablo said during the interview make me think that's the approach they're aiming for, but I'm wrong a lot.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

17 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

khora is better for mob def on sp vs ranged. and interception should be easy with that. you can hold at least 3 points.

I don't have Khora on that account and I'm not going to buy her or her prime.  I also dislike frames that require lots of set up, spam, and modding for their abilities.

That's why I'm going to get wisp.  You don't have to go overboard modding for her.  Most of her abilities are low maintenance as well.  Plant and forget, recast when necessary.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)Big Roy 324:

I don't have Khora on that account and I'm not going to buy her or her prime.  I also dislike frames that require lots of set up, spam, and modding for their abilities.

That's why I'm going to get wisp.  You don't have to go overboard modding for her.  Most of her abilities are low maintenance as well.  Plant and forget, recast when necessary.

I also have wisp. this is very good warframe. unfortunately it is a warframe with 1 skill. and the rest comes from helmith.
You can get khora prime from the relics, can't you? because warframe has usable cc, but that is not needed in reality.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

I also have wisp. this is very good warframe. unfortunately it is a warframe with 1 skill. and the rest comes from helmith.
You can get khora prime from the relics, can't you? because warframe has usable cc, but that is not needed in reality.

On my main account I'm posting from I have both. Khora is definitely a neat frame but I just don't jive with her playstyle.

This PC account I'm talking about. I basically am still starting out. I'm officially at the mid game.  But I don't have any of the quality mods that really gets players to sortie/arb/steel path content.  

I'm sure where I am at I would struggle with the angels of zariman quest.

It's honestly been quite a journey for me as I have been playing it more to get to complete the start chart.

Weird situations have me making weird decisions with it as well.  

Such as no clan weapons and frames.  I was invited to a clan by some guy soloing it when I started the account years ago.  I came back to find he had quit the game rather quickly as well.  So I left that one to search for another.  I found one here and got a couple of weapons and of course wukong.  Only to find maybe two weeks later I am once again clanless with no explanation.

So other than those items I am sticking to what can be farmed or purchased in the market. Also with things I can farm I'm generally going to try and avoid the most soul crushing ones. I'm not going to trade and I won't ask for things on this account.  My plan was to give some things to myself if I can once crossplay drops.  But I want to be prepared for that not being possible. 

[Xaero]

5 hours ago, Doomyo89 said:

people who are complaining arent gonna play wukong so why DE would listen them?

For your information, DE will nerf Wukong because of the stats they pulled, not because of someone's feedback.

[Doomyo89]

2 minutes ago, Xaero said:

For your information, DE will nerf Wukong because of the stats they pulled, not because of someone's feedback.

oh yeah right there wasent any complaining on reddit lol.... 

[Xaero]

15 minutes ago, Doomyo89 said:

oh yeah right there wasent any complaining on reddit lol.... 

Is it a language barrier or you just can't read properly? I said DE will nerf Wukong because their stats show Wukong is the most popular warframe by a long shot. And DE nerf overused stuff.

WUKONG POPULAR

DE NERF

NERF HAMMER SMASH

[Doomyo89]

3 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Is it a language barrier or you just can't read properly? I said DE will nerf Wukong because their stats show Wukong is the most popular warframe by a long shot. And DE nerf overused stuff.

WUKONG POPULAR

DE NERF

NERF HAMMER SMASH

oi no need to be rude tough 

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Venus-Venera said:

I also have wisp. this is very good warframe. unfortunately it is a warframe with 1 skill. and the rest comes from helmith.
You can get khora prime from the relics, can't you? because warframe has usable cc, but that is not needed in reality.

Could you clarify what you mean about Wisp being a Warframe with 1 skill "and the rest comes from" Helminth?

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

5 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

The reality of it is, even if DE alters him to a point the already useless Warframe becomes even more of that, most will just reinvest into another Warframe instead of quitting. It isn't any different to what happens with weapons that are either nerfed or just completely replaced by a superior version. Sometimes DE even nerfs a weapon only to later down the line release a 'new' weapon that's the same as the previously nerfed one but with better damage anyways.

Unfortunately with games, there is a severe conflict of interest when it comes to 'balance'.

With usage stats that high.  I'm sure some will actually just uninstall the game. probably won't be that high but I'm sure some will based on how people feel about things like the TNW and AOZ.

The unfortunate part is that most that actually abused the twin/AOE meta will move on.  But those who simply enjoyed the frame for what he brings to the table will likely be the first to quit. 

[Mag_Gaming]

6 hours ago, Doomyo89 said:

i have been maining wukong 3 years now

My apologies to my eyes.

[Tiltskillet]

41 minutes ago, Xaero said:

Is it a language barrier or you just can't read properly? I said DE will nerf Wukong because their stats show Wukong is the most popular warframe by a long shot. And DE nerf overused stuff.

He's been super popular for 3 years though, so why now?  I don't think community complaints are the reason, but it's not such an absurd statement that somebody should be ridiculed.

Personally I think it's a combination of accumulating factors.  And Pablo, seeing not just a popularity issue, but mistakes he made in the rework at the root of it, finally having the ability to address them in his new role.  That's obviously just a guess though.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

This is the sort of "AFK" gameplay that happened with Ember's World on Fire. You'll notice that's not present in the game any more. You'll also notice that common "next worst offenders", like Saryn, don't run into this. Spores runs out of targets to kill and requires Miasma once in a while to ensure spread, at minimum - though you're usually having to manage Spores damage going too out of control and wiping a tile, extinguishing its own targets. Even if it's easy, you're doing more than just walking.

That's why the buck usually stops at Wukong.

I wonder what they are going to do with Xaku's GoL & Yareli's Aquablades (weaker and other limitations but still AFK style without augment).

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Xaero said:

Is it a language barrier or you just can't read properly? I said DE will nerf Wukong because their stats show Wukong is the most popular warframe by a long shot. And DE nerf overused stuff.

WUKONG POPULAR

DE NERF

NERF HAMMER SMASH

nerfing base on popularity is quite a bad look for DE. they should be trying to nerf based on unbalance. but who are we kidding? not everyone uses wukong the same way or uses the same build.

he was boring then got a rework. now hes too much fun and needs to go back to being boring? and what about frames that need a buff? DE is out of touch.

[quxier]

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

He's been super popular for 3 years though, so why now? 

I think it's because of few factors:

- covid - they focus on adding stuffs (sadly it was a lot of RJ)

- they were busy - New war, Angels, focus/eximus rework, crossplay etc

Just now, EinheriarJudith said:

nerfing base on popularity is quite a bad look for DE. they should be trying to nerf based on unbalance. but who are we kidding? not everyone uses wukong the same way or uses the same build.

he was boring then got a rework. now hes too much fun and needs to go back to being boring? and what about frames that need a buff? DE are out of touch.

It's easier to nerf one frame instead of "buff" 10-20.