Raids were very toxic, and should not be brought back even if the idea of them is popular

[Kontrollo]

41 minutes ago, Numerikuu said:

...

As for raids, one thing I would love to see which actually requires skill in this game is use of parkour mechanics. I love the Jupiter rework for this reason, and would love to see more of Warframe's core aspects utilised. Imo the parkour/movement in this game is one of the things that keeps me entertained and coming back.

Yes that would be great. It's the reason I still love PvP here despite it going downhill for years already.

Now that is obviously not to everyone's taste, but it'd be great if we had something that'd put some focus on that in PvE as well. In raids it could be just one segment out of many that puts an emphasis on parkour. The Jupiter rework only slightly missed the mark, imho. Enemies should all have more and slower projectile weapons, too (some of them have hitscan weapons, flame throwers, Exergis shotguns).

Parkour + Bullet Hell could be great if done correctly.

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

I agree with the OP.

On 2022-03-04 at 11:51 AM, Impulse_Nine said:

people who dont even necessarily speak the same language working together

This plays a major role since I moslty play on Europe and multiple languages were a barrier to complete it. Nothing a chat whell would't fix, but that's just an idea.

I had both experiences in Raids: with my Clan at the time they where fine. With randoms, not so much. Diferent people play diferent ways and not all are "co-op friedly". At some point I just had to stop because they just weren't fun anymore. I was not unhappy when DE removed them and put the Arcanes on Eidolons (a much more faster and repeatable mision, that also requires teamwork).

That said, I am not against them coming back. I do like co-operative missions where each individual has to perform a particular task to achieve success. Some Railjack missions and the Deimos Vaults have a bit of that, so it all really comes down to the Devs IF they can design a cool, fun, "functioning" Raid.

My only concern is with the Meta. That only a few Warframes or builds would be "acceptable" to do them, thus driving away players that don't meet those requirements. Railjack and Vaults don't really have it (which is great) but Eidolon Hunts do (some players even demand over 500 tri-captures, which I think is laughable. What can 500 hunts teach you, that 50-100 won't?)

But, again, that's up to the Devs.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Pizzarugi said:

How do you "git gud" in a grind game, exactly? How is running the same content over and over to get junk items you'll need literally hundreds of to buy whatever rewards raids offer a sign of skill?

This isn't Dark Souls, dude. There's nothing to get good at doing. Having the patience of a saint (or a masochist) to grind for hundreds of junk and hoping you'll find people to buy it all isn't a skill.

The problem is that Warframe does actually have mechanical skill. It's no Devil May Cry or Dark Souls, make no mistake, but spend five minutes in conclave (granted, quite the feat these days) and tell me there isn't mechanical skill in Warframe.

One major barrier to raids is that the game's balance issues and grind has replaced its mechanical execution challenges. In an action RPG, these two things should support each other - for example, Monster Hunter. In Warframe, it does not.

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

On 2022-03-06 at 2:13 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

A lot of people won't see it as toxic simply because they are probably on the same side as the ones being toxic, which normalizes toxicity towards certain groups.

On a sidenote, there's a difference between "talking from experience" -which is right- and "making assumptions" -which is wrong-. Especially when we think about how different is people, how environment shapes behaviors, and how a lot of those assumptions (usually disguised as "experience") are actually players projecting themselves or their fears and making a slippery slope out of it.

And this is exactly what i mean in the previous segment. Some people love to claim that pvp is toxic by itself, yet rarely ever bother to interact with pvp focused communities to see how these actually are.

Fwiw, competitive people just want a good fight against others similar or even higher skilled players to improve and help others to get better in order to have more fun opponents to fight against, which also provides a reason to become even better (reason why the skill gap has become so wide for conclave since PvE doesn't encourage any way of learning other than modding, which takes a step back in PvP).

Toxicity in PvP usually comes from the frustration of people who cares more about rewards (syndicate standing, a rank, a leaderboard position, whatever) than about improving.

This only shows a huge failure on community management. Everything in the game is so easy that players have developed a strong atychiphobia, so players will do whatever it takes to avoid even taking the chance to fail a mission, going as far as blaming everyone else for mission failures -sometimes even before failure becomes imminent- while refusing to see their role in such failure. DE's focus on rewards over gameplay is another thing to keep in mind here.

I'd say warframe (the game) does indeed have good mechanical foundation for raids. The real issue is -imo- how the lack of a defined power ceiling makes the devs unable to develop content that challenges players without arbitrary mechanics; and how powercreep removes any need to engage deeply with warframe's mechanical aspect.

This is what i hated the most about old raids, the "CC everything and let someone else handle the puzzle" approach encouraged by RSB which basically gave them "students" who would be nothing but CC batteries to trivialize enemies while "instructors" got to play the game without enemies.

Expand  

I think a big issue is that some people see toxicity in everything. I'm personally on the level where toxicity is rooted in behavior towards your fellow players. Like being just straight up disgusting in the way you approach other players. The whole "it requires grouping, it is toxic" idea that some put forward I just cannot support, but when death threats or having inner circle dealings that benefit some, toxicity becomes real to me.

Yeah, and the opposite applies too since people fail/refuse to see toxicity from their own side towards others. Stuff as simple as "remove X content because i don't like it" or "DE shouldn't add Y content because of reasons" are toxic as well, yet widely normalized within this playerbase.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is really no part of WF where I see a foundation for raids. Every player fills every role and there are some roles that cannot even be properly done. We have no real aggro management, no direct healing, no direct tanking and everyone can use the same weapons, which is where our DPS mostly comes from.

That's more of an issue with powercreep allowing us to fill all roles regardless of whatever character we're using by just slapping the proper upgrades. Making all characters become self sustainable may be a good thing (at least for some people, mostly solo players), but as warframe has proven, it comes at the expense of removing any semblance of roles.

Other than that, warframe has a good mechanical depth, the real issue is having no need to ever make use of it, which also comes from how powercreep allows us to be a ranged dps that removes enemies through mindless nuking while also being a tank, a support and a melee assassin all at once, but this is something that only DE can (and hopefully will) fix.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not even bosses have a chance to be of raid design, because we lack those things that sets apart headless chicken approach bosses of dungeons in other games from raid bosses.

DE can implement those, the real issue is how to make those bosses actually feel like raid ones since our current power can already defeat level cap enemies while DE keeps adding new unneeded layers of powercreep.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But then again I think it really comes down to players wanting raids in WF dont really know what it is that they want.

Seems to me like people just want challenging content, but there's a core issue to fix before that gets to happen so we can have raids as you know them, and i'm sure i've mentioned it before in this same post.

[Uhkretor]

... So much moot discussion over a soon-to-be-revived game mode...

 

... Since they are bringing Raids back, I want to do them alone. If it ends up requiring the same crap limits it had before, it'll just have the same end result.

Choice is a constant in the game, apparently by DE standards, so the choice to complete it Solo have to apply as well... If it doesn't, it'll just have the same end result.

[TheRealDestian]

I think the elephant in the room here when it comes to raids is this: How do you design and balance raid content when you essentially have 48 different "classes" in the game (and that's not even accounting for the massive build diversity on a frame by frame basis)?

Unlike most MMOs, where raiding is based around "deal X DPS or the boss enrages and you die", Warframe is definitely not designed around ensuring that each frame even fits into a specific role, let alone that each one does comparable damage. And hell, despite WoW only having ~36 specs overall with each spec being ENTIRELY pigeonholed into one role with relatively little build variation compared to WF, WoW struggles like crazy with balancing the classes and the meta dominating every part of the game to the point where overgeared players can't get groups while playing an off-meta spec.

There will, without question, be meta frames for raids. Those who try to bring a non-meta frame will be actively harming the group though I'm sure the queuing system isn't going to tell them that the frame they're queuing with has abilities that won't help the squad one iota.

Bottom line, I wish the devs the utmost luck in attempting to balance raids in this game because they absolutely have their work cut out for them...

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, Uhkretor said:

... So much moot discussion over a soon-to-be-revived game mode...

 

... Since they are bringing Raids back, I want to do them alone. If it ends up requiring the same crap limits it had before, it'll just have the same end result.

Choice is a constant in the game, apparently by DE standards, so the choice to complete it Solo have to apply as well... If it doesn't, it'll just have the same end result.

I think they could get the best of both worlds by having a seperate mode set up as a challenge run. Making it possible, but not easy. For example, if something requires that the team needs to complete two objectives over three minutes, the solo mode gives six. Given that you'd need to reach the second objective though, this means the solo player needs to achieve each individual objective in less time. Raids are, after all, intended  to be the apex of PvE content, so a Solo Raid should try to still live up to that standard.

I'm a fan of one-time exclusive rewards like weapons on completion of the first completion (encouraging experiencing the content, and then once you're done you don't have to grind), and there's definitely some fun ideas you could have for thematic rewards for it. A single weapon that looks like it's composed of several others, representing that you're one Tenno that can match the power of several

[Pizzarugi]

1 hour ago, TheRealDestian said:

I think the elephant in the room here when it comes to raids is this: How do you design and balance raid content when you essentially have 48 different "classes" in the game (and that's not even accounting for the massive build diversity on a frame by frame basis)?

Unlike most MMOs, where raiding is based around "deal X DPS or the boss enrages and you die", Warframe is definitely not designed around ensuring that each frame even fits into a specific role, let alone that each one does comparable damage. And hell, despite WoW only having ~36 specs overall with each spec being ENTIRELY pigeonholed into one role with relatively little build variation compared to WF, WoW struggles like crazy with balancing the classes and the meta dominating every part of the game to the point where overgeared players can't get groups while playing an off-meta spec.

There will, without question, be meta frames for raids. Those who try to bring a non-meta frame will be actively harming the group though I'm sure the queuing system isn't going to tell them that the frame they're queuing with has abilities that won't help the squad one iota.

Bottom line, I wish the devs the utmost luck in attempting to balance raids in this game because they absolutely have their work cut out for them...

Not only that, but consider the balance and powercreep that's saturated the game over the years. A Warframe raid wouldn't be able to rely on things like a constant stream of adds to try and overwhelm the player as a challenge, because Saryn would just annihilate them all without even struggling. Boss DPS phases? Ignoring certain cheese strategies that might be accounted for such as Revenant's 1+3 combo, it's not difficult for any one frame to deal tons of damage, or someone can just bring a Mesa and hose them down. A melee player that swaps to a primer weapon for viral is going to 1-phase the boss if designed improperly.

This isn't like Destiny 2, Warframe's power scaling is on a whole other, broken level. DE has a lot of work to do to try and factor all of this in and keep it engaging. Raid challenges would have to rely largely on puzzles and platforming, with mechanics to stop players from cheesing like using operator's void dash to cross gaps meant to be parkoured. Enemies would have to be resistant to powers and bosses would have to have something akin to lich damage reduction mechanics so they can maintain some kind of threatening presence without getting bulldozed, or be largely mechanics based. Powers would have to be suppressed somehow to add extra challenge so tank frames can't just eat the boss's damage and laugh, same with CC frames declawing the enemy.

[Numerikuu]

4 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Not only that, but consider the balance and powercreep that's saturated the game over the years. A Warframe raid wouldn't be able to rely on things like a constant stream of adds to try and overwhelm the player as a challenge, because Saryn would just annihilate them all without even struggling. Boss DPS phases? Ignoring certain cheese strategies that might be accounted for such as Revenant's 1+3 combo, it's not difficult for any one frame to deal tons of damage. A melee player that swaps to a primer weapon for viral is going to 1-phase the boss if designed improperly.

This isn't like Destiny 2, Warframe's power scaling is on a whole other, broken level. DE has a lot of work to do to try and factor all of this in and keep it engaging. Raid challenges would have to rely largely on puzzles and platforming, with mechanics to stop players from cheesing like using operator's void dash to cross gaps meant to be parkoured. Enemies would have to be resistant to powers and bosses would have to have something akin to lich damage reduction mechanics so they can maintain some kind of threatening presence without getting bulldozed. Powers would have to be suppressed somehow to add extra challenge so tank frames can't just eat the boss's damage and laugh, same with CC frames declawing the enemy.

The only way out of this deep mess of a hole without them rebalancing pretty much 90% of the entire game would be them falling back on the Tenno imo. And personally? I'd prefer that. So far they've just been kinda 'there'. The New War however gave us a taste of how they can be used. Time to utilise that resource 👌

[Metalgearfox]

On 2022-03-04 at 7:10 AM, DrBorris said:

Ah, so because some people won't like a thing then nobody should have it. Got it. A few toxic butts mean the good people don't get to have fun.

Also, the Raid School Bus existed, one of if not the most welcoming subsections of the Warframe community.

When they yeeted raids I pretty much took a 5 year break.

I find that people who use the word "toxic" a lot are extremely controlling. If you are having fun a different way than they are, your fun needs to be removed from the game. No leaderboards. No challenges. No endgame. No PvP. Only "positive vibes" and transmogs.

If you try to have fun doing things they don't like, they start acting pretty fashy. 

[Pizzarugi]

5 hours ago, Metalgearfox said:

I find that people who use the word "toxic" a lot are extremely controlling. If you are having fun a different way than they are, your fun needs to be removed from the game. No leaderboards. No challenges. No endgame. No PvP. Only "positive vibes" and transmogs.

That same logic can also be applied the other way around. Have you seen tridolon ads in the LFG channel looking for players with 100-200+ captures, using specific frames, and/or weapons? You can't scroll through the chat without tripping over them. And if someone should dare choose to play the way they want to which goes against the meta, they get cussed out, accused of griefing/leeching/noob, and booted from the group.

Pro-coordinated content players are just as much, if not more, at fault for toxicity and controlling behavior than the antis who don't want to feel forced to engage with that content in a way they might not find fun. It's no different than what you're accusing the antis of doing. "Either play the way we want you to, or #*!% off."

But somehow it's the players who are worried about a resurgence in toxicity within raids that are really the toxic ones?

Obviously raids are coming back, but the very least we can do is make sure our voices are heard so that DE doesn't put players into some kind of corner that demands an enforced meta. There's a big difference between an optional meta and a required one. Obviously some frames and weapons will simply perform better than others, and I doubt DE is going to do anything about that. What we don't want is for those same frames and weapons to become a requirement if you want to join a team. Tridolon is an example of an enforced meta because of time constraints, but there are other ways DE could make that happen in raids. We don't want that to happen.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

3 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

That same logic can also be applied the other way around. Have you seen tridolon ads in the LFG channel looking for players with 100-200+ captures, using specific frames, and/or weapons? You can't scroll through the chat without tripping over them. And if someone should dare choose to play the way they want to which goes against the meta, they get cussed out, accused of griefing/leeching/noob, and booted from the group.

Pro-coordinated content players are just as much, if not more, at fault for toxicity and controlling behavior than the antis who don't want to feel forced to engage with that content in a way they might not find fun. It's no different than what you're accusing the antis of doing. "Either play the way we want you to, or #*!% off."

Are you serious? A squad looking for experienced players with specific loadouts for a specific objective is in no way equivalent to non-experienced players suggesting to rip out the entire content away because "tOxIc" recruit chat isn't tooting their green horns. 

Do you think a raid group or any coordinated squad looking for specific classes or roles in multiplayer games is toxic too? Is someone looking for speedva and Nekros with AOE weapons for farming toxic and controlling as well? How is a tridolon squad looking for something specific toxic but not you wanting to ignore their requests? Oh, sorry, that's "dare to choose to play the way they want" because apparently it takes sooo much bravery to not read other people's messages. 

[Pizzarugi]

41 minutes ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

Are you serious? A squad looking for experienced players with specific loadouts for a specific objective is in no way equivalent to non-experienced players suggesting to rip out the entire content away because "tOxIc" recruit chat isn't tooting their green horns.

How is it not equivalent? These players are telling you that unless you meet their specific qualifications and follow very specific meta loadouts, you're not allowed to participate in tridolon captures. That's no different than your claims that people who don't want an enforced meta in trials are "ripping out entire content". You're clearly being biased here and believe that somehow your side is completely innocent while completely ignoring the very real problem of coordinated team activities and how it enforces a strict meta that excludes other players from playing what they want.

41 minutes ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

Do you think a raid group or any coordinated squad looking for specific classes or roles in multiplayer games is toxic too? Is someone looking for speedva and Nekros with AOE weapons for farming toxic and controlling as well? Is someone looking for speedva and Nekros with AOE weapons for farming toxic and controlling as well?

Yes? It's telling other players how you want them to play, literally the same argument you're levying at those who disagree with you. How is this not obvious? Why is it okay for you to tell other people how to play in these activities, but void forbid these same people suggest DE doesn't make the content restrictive? Someone took a Nidus to the mission and they're using a Corinth Prime because they enjoy how they play? THE HORROR!

41 minutes ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

How is a tridolon squad looking for something specific toxic but not you wanting to ignore their requests?

Again, that same question can be flipped the other way. How are players not wanting to be limited to using specific frames and weapons toxic, but not you ignoring their requests?

I want raids designed in such a way that a meta isn't being enforced in teams. I don't see how that's controversial. You get your content, everyone else doesn't feel stifled by a meta. What I'm asking for is a win/win.

[BansheeAndZephyrMarried]

14 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

How is it not equivalent? These players are telling you that unless you meet their specific qualifications and follow very specific meta loadouts, you're not allowed to participate in tridolon captures. That's no different than your claims that people who don't want an enforced meta in trials are "ripping out entire content". You're clearly being biased here and believe that somehow your side is completely innocent while completely ignoring the very real problem of coordinated team activities and how it enforces a strict meta that excludes other players from playing what they want.

Yes? It's telling other players how you want them to play, literally the same argument you're levying at those who disagree with you. How is this not obvious? Why is it okay for you to tell other people how to play in these activities, but void forbid these same people suggest DE doesn't make the content restrictive? Someone took a Nidus to the mission and they're using a Corinth Prime? THE HORROR!

Again, that same question can be flipped the other way. How are players not wanting to be limited to using specific frames and weapons toxic, but not you ignoring their requests?

I want raids designed in such a way that a meta isn't being enforced in teams. I don't see how that's controversial. You get your content, everyone else doesn't feel stifled by a meta. What I'm asking for is a win/win.

Randos: I want to invite Volt to my squad.  

You: I'm not going to play Volt. 

Randos: OK then I won't invite you into my squad. 

You: tHiS iS wHy CoOrDiNaTeD pLaY iS tOxIc

You seem to be under the impression that if someone doesn't want to play with you because you want to ignore the first "must know how to count" sign on their boundary, that means they're toxic.

Nobody owes you anything. 

Nobody owes you a tridolon squad.

Nobody owes you a tridolon squad when you don't want to compromise with what the other 2 or 3 people want.

Those other people, however, cannot stop you from trying pub, or solo, or looking for a different tridolon squad, or hosting your own squad. The eidolons will still be there. The content will still be there for you, you just don't get to play with those specific people who want a specific Volt or Wisp or whathaveyou because they're all strangers and they want to play the most reliable way they know. 

I repeat: Eidolon content will still be there for you regardless of how many squads boot your Nidus/Corinth from their tridolon hunts. 

How is this in any way comparable to OP and you asking raids be cut off from rest of the playerbase because of tOxIcItY when it's evident your perception of toxicity is entirely self-centered? 

[Pizzarugi]

13 minutes ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

Those other people, however, cannot stop you from trying pub, or solo, or looking for a different tridolon squad, or hosting your own squad. The eidolons will still be there. The content will still be there for you, you just don't get to play with those specific people who want a specific Volt or Wisp or whathaveyou because they're all strangers and they want to play the most reliable way they know. 

Except you're failing to understand that this isn't just an isolated "specific group of people". Virtually everyone in LFG wants specific loadouts. If the only option you have is solo or pubs, then we're no longer talking about the subject which is the toxicity in coordinated team activities. If the old trials are anything to go by, you physically cannot participate in them solo or with pubs. An assembled team is required. Your argument doesn't hold up here.

13 minutes ago, BansheeAndZephyrMarried said:

How is this in any way comparable to OP and you asking raids be cut off from rest of the playerbase because of tOxIcItY when it's evident your perception of toxicity is entirely self-centered? 

Seeing as apparently DE has confirmed that they're bringing back raids, my stance has changed instead to suggesting that they don't design them in a way that encourages a forced meta like what happened with eidolons. The only self-centered person here is you, you're the one telling people to suck it up and play the game how you want them to play, while I'm here asking that DE doesn't design this content in such a way that only a limited number of frames and weapons are viable. What I'm suggesting is far from self-centered. Wouldn't it be nice to do a activity with something you feel comfortable and find the most enjoyment using?

[DebrisFlow]

3 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Except you're failing to understand that this isn't just an isolated "specific group of people". Virtually everyone in LFG wants specific loadouts. If the only option you have is solo or pubs, then we're no longer talking about the subject which is the toxicity in coordinated team activities. If the old trials are anything to go by, you physically cannot participate in them solo or with pubs. An assembled team is required. Your argument doesn't hold up here.

Solo/pubs are not your only option. I often build a tridolon group with the "H chilled run" specification. I just say to the participants that they can bring whatever they want. "LF chilled run" works too. You can apply the same logic to trials and specifically look for pre-made groups with no elitist attitude, you just need to know how to search for them.

[Numerikuu]

17 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Yes that would be great. It's the reason I still love PvP here despite it going downhill for years already.

Now that is obviously not to everyone's taste, but it'd be great if we had something that'd put some focus on that in PvE as well. In raids it could be just one segment out of many that puts an emphasis on parkour. The Jupiter rework only slightly missed the mark, imho. Enemies should all have more and slower projectile weapons, too (some of them have hitscan weapons, flame throwers, Exergis shotguns).

Agreed, especially that one Corpus with what may as well be a minigun. Screw that thing 😂

18 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Parkour + Bullet Hell could be great if done correctly.

Warframe's movement + Nier Automata's bullet hell 👌👀

[TheArmchairThinker]

14 minutes ago, DebrisFlow said:

Solo/pubs are not your only option. I often build a tridolon group with the "H chilled run" specification. I just say to the participants that they can bring whatever they want. "LF chilled run" works too. You can apply the same logic to trials and specifically look for pre-made groups with no elitist attitude, you just need to know how to search for them.

Raids are known to not being that though, "chilled run" tend to be hours of repeating things because of one mistake like that LoR second phase with team wipe on wrong plate stepped or when you get knocked out from the plate or complete failure because the DPS role doesn't deal enough damage that usually end up with players berating each other from DPS not dealing enough damage and DPS blaming support for not having enough buff and debuff to win, healers not healing fast enough or tank not doing the job. Pretty chill, huh? Eidolon is not at raid level unless you're going that sweaty 5x3 for whatever reason you have and more often than not 1x3 would be seen as "noob level"

[TheArmchairThinker]

On 2022-03-05 at 11:16 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I still want raids back cause it was something for people to enjoy with friends and get challenged. And i am hoping it will be a bit better than before

Depend on what you see as "get challenged" because that only happen when you're not at Warframe level of nuking and turning the battlefied non-existent so does that mean nerfing everything to crap? So what makes Warframe unique compared to other games then?

Also, what kind of raid being challenging? Because the last thing I like is calling out symbols or using mic to call outs (we know how some players have below standard rigs and internet) that becomes something near impossible to get if you're not a whole team with the same language (asia region usually have this with players having ***** instead of letters you can understand)

[DebrisFlow]

27 minutes ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Raids are known to not being that though, "chilled run" tend to be hours of repeating things because of one mistake like that LoR second phase with team wipe on wrong plate stepped or when you get knocked out from the plate or complete failure because the DPS role doesn't deal enough damage that usually end up with players berating each other from DPS not dealing enough damage and DPS blaming support for not having enough buff and debuff to win, healers not healing fast enough or tank not doing the job. Pretty chill, huh? Eidolon is not at raid level unless you're going that sweaty 5x3 for whatever reason you have and more often than not 1x3 would be seen as "noob level"

Yet the Raid schoolbus existed, with the explicitly stated philosophy of being a "low pressure environment" to learn the basics. Newcomers have to learn somehow, the veteran community understood that and organized accordingly. And it will organize again in the same way with the new raids, because not all humans are toxic garbage. Exactly like in real life, multiplayer gaming is also about having the patience and perseverance to find the right people, which are out there, knowing the right tools (recruit chat, discord, etc).

A second note i want to make is about failure. Warframe development through the years built a wrongful (imo) expectation of no failure across the board, to the point that we don't receive rewards but participation tropies. Community needs (still, imo) to embrace the concept of failure as the natural part of any game. You fail a raid? You try again tomorrow. People should normalize this attitude as it is arguably a healtier one, both in life and gaming, and i look forward for a single game mode teaching a little bit of that (i really miss Arbitrations hardcore death), without transfering to the whole game.

Third point, it's highly unlikely that raids will return exactly as they were. By now DE knows which were the design problems that were alienating the majority of the community (bugs apart). Seeing how every new game mode released in the last years has been progressively easened update after update, i'm sure raids will come with less strict fail conditions (and possibly even less strict ones after the first batch of difficulty complaints). 

[George_PPS]

On 2022-03-04 at 3:51 AM, Impulse_Nine said:

I've played about 4 games in my life with any seriousness. 2 of them had 1 thing in common that eventually lead to tremendous toxicity among the community: Dependence on teammates.

I'm not talking fighting alongside friendly players, as Warframe (which has a very good community I think) demonstrates- thats fine.

It stops being fine when progression becomes impossible without everyone optimising / performing a task correctly. In that situation people start having to "vet" each other for quality to be sure that this run is possible. Naturally this causes arguments, or run after run failing because people aren't filtering out those who don't know what they are doing - frequently both happen anyway. Seriously, I love Alien Swarm on Insane/Brutal but it is very nasty for new players, similar goes for Mann vs. Machine in TF2 at harder difficulties.

This eventually came to Warframe in the form of raids. I was skeptical when I heard about them and my fears proved entirely true- the game mode depended on people doing something other than pinging around the map tiles killing, and as a result (outside of dedicated groups of people who knew each other) I think most pub missions failed. Usually with a lot of swearing, shaming, and reference to peoples mothers too. I knew what I was doing in them and I wasn't having a good time- I feel genuinely sorry for the people who didnt, and had 3/4 vocal players swearing at them in the chat. Not everyone reads the wiki before playing a game after all.

 

Now, I see that survery result, wow, that is strong support for raids. Perhaps people just enjoyed the toxicity. Perhaps most people were in dedicated raiding teams and it was just pub matches that were absolute horror shows. But perhaps its strong because the alternative to saying "Yes I want more content" is to say "No I dont want more content" - and who doesnt want more content? Right?

 

More content does not mean good content though. The idea of people who dont even necessarily speak the same language working together is a nice idea, but it isnt one that works well in practice because when problems happen (and they will) it can often be impossible to fix them. Raids for a lot of people, me included, were fustrating, boring, toxic, unsatisfying, or all 4 at once.

If they are going to be brought back there will inevitably be some unique and valuable loot that cannot be acquired any other way. With the trading system being what it is, even if the rewards are tradeable, this will mean the above experience will be repeated. That isn't a good thing. You don't even need foresight to see, you can use 20/20 hindsight.

 

If raids are going to be anything more than relaxed 8 player killing sprees, then the problems of player interdependence will arise once more and the whole thing will devolve as it did before.

Somethings theoretical popularity does not determine its practical viability- for more examples of this see the difficulties in introducing hydrogen powered cars!

Because of your personal toxic experience, you want this to be cancelled altogether for everyone? What's your point? Why not just not play it after it is reintroduced? Secondly, there are always two options: public squad and recruit. You can expect a more casual play with public or carefully select your teammates to optimize some style of gameplay you prefer! This way everyone can have fun and IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, DON'T PLAY IT! 

[Metalgearfox]

11 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

That same logic can also be applied the other way around. Have you seen tridolon ads in the LFG channel looking for players with 100-200+ captures, using specific frames, and/or weapons? You can't scroll through the chat without tripping over them. And if someone should dare choose to play the way they want to which goes against the meta, they get cussed out, accused of griefing/leeching/noob, and booted from the group.

This is not the same.

They said what they wanted in their group.
You joined and did the opposite.

You did that TO THEM. You are the bad guy in this scenario. 

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Yeah, and the opposite applies too since people fail/refuse to see toxicity from their own side towards others. Stuff as simple as "remove X content because i don't like it" or "DE shouldn't add Y content because of reasons" are toxic as well, yet widely normalized within this playerbase.

That's more of an issue with powercreep allowing us to fill all roles regardless of whatever character we're using by just slapping the proper upgrades. Making all characters become self sustainable may be a good thing (at least for some people, mostly solo players), but as warframe has proven, it comes at the expense of removing any semblance of roles.

Other than that, warframe has a good mechanical depth, the real issue is having no need to ever make use of it, which also comes from how powercreep allows us to be a ranged dps that removes enemies through mindless nuking while also being a tank, a support and a melee assassin all at once, but this is something that only DE can (and hopefully will) fix.

DE can implement those, the real issue is how to make those bosses actually feel like raid ones since our current power can already defeat level cap enemies while DE keeps adding new unneeded layers of powercreep.

Seems to me like people just want challenging content, but there's a core issue to fix before that gets to happen so we can have raids as you know them, and i'm sure i've mentioned it before in this same post.

Well yeah, but that is its own problem. It doesnt make toxic content less toxic or less of a problem.

But that has been the way Warframe has worked since the beginning, the power doesnt matter because the best dps tool at any given time in the game has been available to every single frame and playstyle. And to me the game wouldnt be WF anymore if they move over to a role system with restrictions. The thing DE could do without screwing it up is follow ArenaNet and GW2, where there were added spec options soley to suit the raid content when it was released, without impacting the regular gameplay and specs/builds. But at the same time, it would probably be better for DE to simply make raid content in such a case based on 100% operator or 100% necramech, things that would need far less work to get to a balanced state. However, at that point the idea of warframes would go lost because suddenly creepy kids or walking coffins would be more powerful than the frames.

And while DE can surely implement less mindless boss fights, they wont be able to make bosses that actually achieve the role of a raid boss, because they arent just any boss. They rely on the depth that comes with the limitations and strict roles of trinity games. While WF has decent depth, it just isnt enough. There are too many things missing in order to give DE enough options to create engaging bosses for a raid. We'd need things like proper interrupts, blocks, parry, healing, tanking, aggro and ways to improve those, so every person has a role and the options to build/gear for them. And yeah, the constantly added power creep does not help one bit either.

I agree, people probably look for more challenging content, and somehow they think the magical word raid will automatically solve it. But raids in the old way doesnt really fill that need, because challenges were arbitrary mechanics that didnt really test your progress or give any real point to that progress you had already made elsewhere.

In reality WF needs a massive overhaul before raids will ever become something remotely interesting or worthwhile, unless people are happy and fine with puzzle quest, Nihil and Exploiter poop content. It will be fun to see the "soon" coming "improvements" to Eximus units. I have extremely low expectations though.

[TheArmchairThinker]

2 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Community needs (still, imo) to embrace the concept of failure as the natural part of any game. You fail a raid? You try again tomorrow.

This is the thing, Warframe is very punishing in failure where you lose everything on mission failure and there are things being very rare to get like despair/hate which nobody knows when it will drop again so I prefer to minimize the chance to fail

As for trying again tomorrow, you see it as part of the game, I see it as wasted time for nothing

2 hours ago, DebrisFlow said:

Exactly like in real life, multiplayer gaming is also about having the patience and perseverance to find the right people, which are out there, knowing the right tools (recruit chat, discord, etc).

And Warframe doesn't have to be that, it can be its own kind of a game where you can escape real life and it's still there after 8 years. If game that isn't similar in real life isn't accepted, Warframe wouldn't stay as it is for 8 years

[Loza03]

31 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And while DE can surely implement less mindless boss fights, they wont be able to make bosses that actually achieve the role of a raid boss, because they arent just any boss. They rely on the depth that comes with the limitations and strict roles of trinity games. While WF has decent depth, it just isnt enough. There are too many things missing in order to give DE enough options to create engaging bosses for a raid. We'd need things like proper interrupts, blocks, parry, healing, tanking, aggro and ways to improve those, so every person has a role and the options to build/gear for them. And yeah, the constantly added power creep does not help one bit either.

Ehhh... I mean, Destiny isn't a Trinity game, and neither is Monster Hunter, and both definitely have bosses that either are explicitly 'raids' or clearly designed in the same vein. And both are lacking significant chunks of what you say as well. 'Raid' type content isn't exclusive to any one type of design. Rather, it's probably more accurate to describe it as just the most complex and deep incarnation of a given game's base gameplay, optionally with an additional gimmick or puzzle. Strict roles aren't required, and roles in general can be more 'suggested' (for example, Fatalis requires players to break the head. But players can go about doing that in a couple different ways which lean into each other, which means depending on build they are likely to drift into a couple more 'soft' roles throughout the fight).

I would say that it's more on the fact that Warframe lacks more baseline gameplay assumptions. For example, functionally unlimited ammo and extremely generous use of abilities that subtract pretty much all the gameplay. Mainly the nukes and CC spam. There's also the extreme variance in health, damage mitigation and damage values across the whole game - between enemy factions, between individual enemies within factions, between players and enemies, between players and between weapons. All the above frankly makes standard enemy design near-impossible, let alone a complex raid boss.