Harrow, that one special frame who somehow is better than his own prime in lore.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

So let's cut to the chase. As we all know, Rell uses harrow to seal/suppress the man in the wall in the Chains of Harrow quest. The thing to point out is that he used regular Harrow. The prime version of Harrow is not used by Rell and doesn't have an important role in the lore compared to regular Harrow. Somehow Rell's Harrow has a place in the lore that was unmatched by the prime version. This makes Rell's Harrow unique in the lore as it is the only confirmed frame in the lore to not be a prime (excluding Umbra) and out preform its prime version.

So if you have the rebuilt version of Rell's Harrow, remember that he actually did something important in the lore that Harrow Prime will never accomplish.

[NinthAria]

Just because the prime version is superior in terms of performance doesn't mean it gets used the same way(s). I'd have thought that was obvious.

Also, according to Varzia, there's no set rule with regards to whether a warframe gets a prime version or a normal version first. Some of them started as primes and then got normal, mass-produced variants afterwards; some started out basic and had a prime version developed after the fact, presumably in recognition for their performance. Harrow strikes me as probably being in the latter category.

[(PSN)IdoThea]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

it is the only confirmed frame in the lore to not be a prime (excluding Umbra) and out preform its prime version.

Protea.

Protea created Granum Void to save Parvos Granum when his ships drive was sabotaged by Corpus board. We don't yet have Protea Prime (which I want so bad). 

Primes are of course better but normal variants were in use during old war. I think Primes were given by Orokin for Tenno who proven themselves as successful warriors. Varzia for example calls them "Prime Vanguard". So it could mean there was specific group of Tenno who used Primes and to get into that group during old war you'd have to accomplish something great in the battlefield. 

Rell was outcast who created Red Veil so he wouldn't be able to get Prime it's even unknown how he got Harrow since he wasn't even part of that transference program other children were. 

[V2lkyr]

They probably just didn't consider that when writing Chains of Harrow.

 

[V2lkyr]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

Protea.

Protea created Granum Void to save Parvos Granum when his ships drive was sabotaged by Corpus board. We don't yet have Protea Prime (which I want so bad). 

Primes are of course better but normal variants were in use during old war. I think Primes were given by Orokin for Tenno who proven themselves as successful warriors. Varzia for example calls them "Prime Vanguard". So it could mean there was specific group of Tenno who used Primes and to get into that group during old war you'd have to accomplish something great in the battlefield. 

Rell was outcast who created Red Veil so he wouldn't be able to get Prime it's even unknown how he got Harrow since he wasn't even part of that transference program other children were. 

Then there's Xaku,lord knows how they're gonna explain Xaku Prime

[TARINunit9]

13 minutes ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

Rell was outcast who created Red Veil so he wouldn't be able to get Prime it's even unknown how he got Harrow since he wasn't even part of that transference program other children were. 

Rell was working with Margulis and later Lotus, so he was absolutely part of the Transference Projects and Tenno war effort

[NinthAria]

19 minutes ago, V2lkyr said:

Then there's Xaku,lord knows how they're gonna explain Xaku Prime

1 hour ago, NinthAria said:

Also, according to Varzia, there's no set rule with regards to whether a warframe gets a prime version or a normal version first. Some of them started as primes and then got normal, mass-produced variants afterwards; some started out basic and had a prime version developed after the fact, presumably in recognition for their performance.

How indeed.

[V2lkyr]

13 minutes ago, NinthAria said:

How indeed.

Xaku was still not intended to even exist in the first place.Would Xaku Prime be their own thing or just a combination of 3 prime Warframes instead? Would they even considering priming an imperfection? Could they even use the void to redo the thing it did to stitch the lost Warframes together in the first place?

[Raarsi]

31 minutes ago, V2lkyr said:

Then there's Xaku,lord knows how they're gonna explain Xaku Prime

Or Caliban Prime.  At least it'd look cooler.

[gamingchair1121]

22 minutes ago, V2lkyr said:

Xaku was still not intended to even exist in the first place.Would Xaku Prime be their own thing or just a combination of 3 prime Warframes instead? Would they even considering priming an imperfection? Could they even use the void to redo the thing it did to stitch the lost Warframes together in the first place?

or xaku could get a hold effect on an ability to switch between the three frames that were merged or something

[Laveillon]

52 minutes ago, V2lkyr said:

Then there's Xaku,lord knows how they're gonna explain Xaku Prime

Money!

[gamingchair1121]

1 minute ago, Laveillon said:

Money!

corpus xaku

[x_xGamerx_x]

Its Valkyr all over again.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

3 hours ago, NinthAria said:

Just because the prime version is superior in terms of performance doesn't mean it gets used the same way(s).

given how the Orokin were so obsessed with their Aesthetics, I wouldn't be surprised if many Tenno had access to both versions of their frame, with the Prime essentially being used for formal events (ceremonies etc.), much like how IRL Military personnel have their formal dress and then their actual combat uniform. the more glamorous Prime version comes out for parades and such, but then for intense and dangerous missions, the more expendable standard version is used, since it could be replaced more easily if destroyed.

1 hour ago, V2lkyr said:

Xaku was still not intended to even exist in the first place.Would Xaku Prime be their own thing or just a combination of 3 prime Warframes instead? Would they even considering priming an imperfection? Could they even use the void to redo the thing it did to stitch the lost Warframes together in the first place?

one way they could explain it would be to say that during the Old War, the Sentients could have found one of the places where Warframes were produced: while The Sentients could never attack the Tenno directly due to them being hidden in the Void, disrupting the production of warframes themselves would still have had a major effect on the Orokin war machine. after losing a major production hub, frames start to become scarce for a moment, but then some bright spark manages to create a Warframe using parts of slain Prime frames that had been retrieved from the battlefield. the Orokin would reluctantly allow this, as whilst imperfect, the need for warframes to carry out dangerous missions is too great. Xaku Primes would have been used to fill in that role until production of "proper" warframes can restart. 

but for the most part, the REAL reason is because $$$$

1 hour ago, Raarsi said:

Or Caliban Prime.  At least it'd look cooler.

Caliban Prime could simply be considered an original prototype developed by Narmer Ballas, to see if mashing Warframe and Sentient tech together would even work due to the Sentient's weakness to Void. Ballas could then have Caliban Warfraems mass produced, giving him all the benefits of having Warframes at his disposal without actually needing the Tenno: Caliban warframes could instead have the same AI that regular Sentients do, but with a much deadlier set of Warframe abilities to use in combat. ultimately Narmer was stopped by us before this plan could be carried out, but Caliban Prime could be tucked away somewhere.. waiting to be rediscovered.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

So if Rell used Xaku then Xaku would somehow be better than Harrow Prime? Outperform Harrow Prime? Or is it just that Rell used Xaku, and the evidence of an action or feat undertaken by a Warframe used by an Operator doesn't exclusively mean that they are superior, better performing or better than anything else, and rather more of a verification of its capabilities. So you could say... imply that Rell using Harrow, achieved a noteworthy accomplishment, that we haven't seen evidence of others matching, in this particular instance. 

I can put a bag over my head and then pee my pants and then run 100 meters. I could get a friend to record it, so I have evidence. Usain Bolt probably doesn't have a video where he pees his pants and runs 100 meters blinded by a bag over his head, so as far as the fastest times go, I would beat him. This means I am better right? Except thats not how evidence, confirmation, testing or demonstrations of better/worse exist, you have to take into account comparisons, consider variables, those you can control and those you can't, and so on. 

So I think I get the spirit of what you are trying to say... but the emphasis on achievement  should probably be more on Rell. Do you think in an alternative tale, where he used Harrow prime instead he failed? Oh and Harrow does have more of an importance in the lore than the Prime version, but thats not as exclusive, many Warframes hold that, especially those that get lore before Prime versions, and the "better", "outperform" reasoning isn't great, and has plenty of flaws in it. Not that they are uncommon, many people often fall into traps involving alternatives, that could be as likely or even more probably, and having biases to or assigning special values to particular signs/moments. When you ideally need to remember variables, variables being changed, conditions, having a "control", so on. 

Also as already mentioned, Varzia. Varzia's lines about Primes and non Primes are basically DE winking at us the player, to tell us to enjoy the lore/Warframes but try not overthink it to the point where stuff shouldn't exist. Since imagine the alternative? DE decides to remove all your favourite Warframes and weapons because they realised it was inconsistent to the lore because one forum user thought about stuff a lot. People meme about E t e r n a l i s m, a lot to help inconsistencies or potential plot holes, and basically Varzia is that too. Basically any issue or question about how or why something gets a Prime or etc is because V a r z i a. Which may not be satisfying to some, but its fiction, inconsistencies are going to happen, and DE's priority will tend to be big picture, general player enjoyment, tied in with money. 

[NinthAria]

2 hours ago, V2lkyr said:

Xaku was still not intended to even exist in the first place.Would Xaku Prime be their own thing or just a combination of 3 prime Warframes instead? Would they even considering priming an imperfection? Could they even use the void to redo the thing it did to stitch the lost Warframes together in the first place?

The Tenno weren't supposed to exist either. But, like any good empire, the Orokin weren't above using something they didn't plan for--even something they hated--if it furthered their hegemony. They gave Nidus a prime variant, so clearly they're not above gussying up aberrations. In fact, in a manner of speaking, that's really what they've done with all warframes, and the Tenno themselves.

 

5 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Also as already mentioned, Varzia. Varzia's lines about Primes and non Primes are basically DE winking at us the player, to tell us to enjoy the lore/Warframes but try not overthink it to the point where stuff shouldn't exist. Since imagine the alternative? DE decides to remove all your favourite Warframes and weapons because they realised it was inconsistent to the lore because one forum user thought about stuff a lot. People meme about E t e r n a l i s m, a lot to help inconsistencies or potential plot holes, and basically Varzia is that too. Basically any issue or question about how or why something gets a Prime or etc is because V a r z i a. Which may not be satisfying to some, but its fiction, inconsistencies are going to happen, and DE's priority will tend to be big picture, general player enjoyment, tied in with money. 

I don't even really think it's an inconsistency? The assumption for a long time was that prime warframes (and/or weapons) came first and the normal variants came afterwards, in kind of a prototype version vs. mass-produced version dichotomy, but it was always just that: An assumption. It was never explicitly stated anywhere that primes always came first (though you could argue it's implied in a few places, like Valkyr Prime's description), so it's not really contradicting anything except the headcanon players may have adopted over the years.

Obviously from a meta-narrative standpoint, that line could have been written for the reasons you describe, i.e. to hand-wave away questions about how and why this or that warframe gets a prime upgrade. But it seems a little late in the game to be worrying about something like that, if that was their angle on it--and DE's style has always been to leave many of the details of Warframe's lore blank only to sprinkle in answers much later on. So, even being maximally cynical here, I suspect it was probably meant as both a way to fill in a previously unconfirmed narrative detail and put to bed any future lore questions/concerns about prime releases.

But, I also don't work at DE, so who can say really?

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

10 minutes ago, NinthAria said:

I don't even really think it's an inconsistency? The assumption for a long time was that prime warframes (and/or weapons) came first and the normal variants came afterwards, in kind of a prototype version vs. mass-produced version dichotomy, but it was always just that: An assumption. It was never explicitly stated anywhere that primes always came first (though you could argue it's implied in a few places, like Valkyr Prime's description), so it's not really contradicting anything except the headcanon players may have adopted over the years.

Obviously from a meta-narrative standpoint, that line could have been written for the reasons you describe, i.e. to hand-wave away questions about how and why this or that warframe gets a prime upgrade. But it seems a little late in the game to be worrying about something like that, if that was their angle on it--and DE's style has always been to leave many of the details of Warframe's lore blank only to sprinkle in answers much later on. So, even being maximally cynical here, I suspect it was probably meant as both a way to fill in a previously unconfirmed narrative detail and put to bed any future lore questions/concerns about prime releases.

But, I also don't work at DE, so who can say really?

 

I agree pretty much. Personally. For those that view or spot what they perceive as inconsistencies, I think it works for them too, or at least thats what I think the idea is, as you touch on, as suggested, for meta narrative reasons. I personally don't know which specific DE people collaborate or change and discuss such lore details, but I do know that often writers/creators dislike being written into corners, can have ideas develop, new ideas can diverge from past generalities, but at the same time, do appreciate when external viewers, readers etc fans do notice and pay attention and invest in such ideas...

I personally try and not hold creative types involved in the stories I like, to standards I consider impossible/hard to maintain. I think some fans sometimes... with fiction, it can be really easy to make assumptions and hold presumptions towards, take them for granted and then start to expand on them... in our own heads. Then on forums/social media, or just with friends, some ideas can even grow and almost seem like the default or actual lore... I don't think its like an inherently negative thing, especially when fans are self aware of this internal process they have towards fiction, and it definitely helps when having discussions with other fans who may not hold those same assumptions or standards. 

Like I think it could also just be practical too. Some fans like me, would rather have an interesting idea for a Warframe and their powers and lore, even if it does go against whats in the past, but some fans won't, but its not like I don't care about the lore and the past either. To myself its just fiction that could and should be improved on with time. Then again I was also a big Marvel and DC comics fan, that did a lot of back tracking with reading, and like 70 plus years of different writers, editors, artists, etc you have to be more flexible and willing to overlook inconsistencies or adjustments otherwise your brain hurts.

[Hayrack]

Varzia's explanation about primes is enough to justify many inconsistencies.

- Any warframe nowdays is a reconstruct;

- Vanilla warframes and primes coexisted;

- One is either born a prime, or becomes one.

Imo, you wrongly focus on importance of the Harrow as a hero, because the real heroes in lore stories are tenno who command warframes. Regular folks never saw tenno (scrawny teens with demonic powers), so they told stories about these particular warframes as they were mighty gods or heroes, who did them good deeds. Keep in mind that in Chains of Harrow main focus is on Rell, not his warframe.

Regarding Xaku, his prime might as well had his original external armor form sitting on top of the skeletal frame, that is bound by either somatic fibers or Neural Sentry "roots". Xaku might even be an original frankensteinian prime project that either proved to be combat-capable and preservation-worthy, or the vanilla broken form that earned his priming rights.

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 7 heures, NinthAria a dit :

Also, according to Varzia, there's no set rule with regards to whether a warframe gets a prime version or a normal version first. Some of them started as primes and then got normal, mass-produced variants afterwards; some started out basic and had a prime version developed after the fact, presumably in recognition for their performance. Harrow strikes me as probably being in the latter category.

Yes, that's the true reason.

Here is her voice text ""Some Warframes were Prime from the start. Others earned it. Ballas never told the whole truth."  (Varzia)

There is another possibility : Rell did not received his warframe (Harrow) from the Orokin, as Margulis rejected him. Some one else gave him Harrow (the Red Veil founders ??), and this people did not have Harrow prime (built by the Orokin), but only Harrow.

The Orokin gave a normal Protea to Parvos Granum, not a Prime version. PErhaps the Orokin reserved the Prime version for themselves and let their allies use normal versions.

We also have some information from Ivara's Leverian lore :

Citation

A stately voice intoned her name. There stood Executor Ballas. He told her: "You have been battle- and loyalty-tested. Your companions, they were found wanting. They failed to adapt. Failed to overcome. And so they are no more. But you, Ivara. You shall live. You shall be remembered."

The Orokin could have created normal versions, tested them, made Prime versions for them and gave the normal versions to thei allies.

In my opinion, we have many possibilities to explain Harrow lore. I don't think there is any problem with it. And the same goes for Valkyr, Nidus and Xaku.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

7 hours ago, V2lkyr said:

Then there's Xaku,lord knows how they're gonna explain Xaku Prime

Or Revenant prime, how are they going to explain an Orokin frame as better than the one who charged in sentient energy for thousands of years. Not to mention his creation AFTER the Orokin all died (as confirmed by Gara lore where she killed the eidolon when the tenno started overthrowing thr Orokin.)

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

7 hours ago, (PSN)IdoThea said:

Protea.

Protea created Granum Void to save Parvos Granum when his ships drive was sabotaged by Corpus board. We don't yet have Protea Prime (which I want so bad). 

Primes are of course better but normal variants were in use during old war. I think Primes were given by Orokin for Tenno who proven themselves as successful warriors. Varzia for example calls them "Prime Vanguard". So it could mean there was specific group of Tenno who used Primes and to get into that group during old war you'd have to accomplish something great in the battlefield. 

Rell was outcast who created Red Veil so he wouldn't be able to get Prime it's even unknown how he got Harrow since he wasn't even part of that transference program other children were. 

Tbh I forgot that protea also did that. So I guess now we have two frames who did more that their primes.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

5 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

given how the Orokin were so obsessed with their Aesthetics, I wouldn't be surprised if many Tenno had access to both versions of their frame, with the Prime essentially being used for formal events (ceremonies etc.), much like how IRL Military personnel have their formal dress and then their actual combat uniform. the more glamorous Prime version comes out for parades and such, but then for intense and dangerous missions, the more expendable standard version is used, since it could be replaced more easily if destroyed.

one way they could explain it would be to say that during the Old War, the Sentients could have found one of the places where Warframes were produced: while The Sentients could never attack the Tenno directly due to them being hidden in the Void, disrupting the production of warframes themselves would still have had a major effect on the Orokin war machine. after losing a major production hub, frames start to become scarce for a moment, but then some bright spark manages to create a Warframe using parts of slain Prime frames that had been retrieved from the battlefield. the Orokin would reluctantly allow this, as whilst imperfect, the need for warframes to carry out dangerous missions is too great. Xaku Primes would have been used to fill in that role until production of "proper" warframes can restart. 

but for the most part, the REAL reason is because $$$$

Caliban Prime could simply be considered an original prototype developed by Narmer Ballas, to see if mashing Warframe and Sentient tech together would even work due to the Sentient's weakness to Void. Ballas could then have Caliban Warfraems mass produced, giving him all the benefits of having Warframes at his disposal without actually needing the Tenno: Caliban warframes could instead have the same AI that regular Sentients do, but with a much deadlier set of Warframe abilities to use in combat. ultimately Narmer was stopped by us before this plan could be carried out, but Caliban Prime could be tucked away somewhere.. waiting to be rediscovered.

Tbh the only way I can see a Revenant or Caliban prime without messing up the established lore or ruining the special nature of the originals would have to be making a Narmer version that still has the sentient tech, but now Ballas found out about Revenant (and already knows about Caliban) and added Orokin technology.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

5 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

So if Rell used Xaku then Xaku would somehow be better than Harrow Prime? Outperform Harrow Prime? Or is it just that Rell used Xaku, and the evidence of an action or feat undertaken by a Warframe used by an Operator doesn't exclusively mean that they are superior, better performing or better than anything else, and rather more of a verification of its capabilities. So you could say... imply that Rell using Harrow, achieved a noteworthy accomplishment, that we haven't seen evidence of others matching, in this particular instance. 

I can put a bag over my head and then pee my pants and then run 100 meters. I could get a friend to record it, so I have evidence. Usain Bolt probably doesn't have a video where he pees his pants and runs 100 meters blinded by a bag over his head, so as far as the fastest times go, I would beat him. This means I am better right? Except thats not how evidence, confirmation, testing or demonstrations of better/worse exist, you have to take into account comparisons, consider variables, those you can control and those you can't, and so on. 

So I think I get the spirit of what you are trying to say... but the emphasis on achievement  should probably be more on Rell. Do you think in an alternative tale, where he used Harrow prime instead he failed? Oh and Harrow does have more of an importance in the lore than the Prime version, but thats not as exclusive, many Warframes hold that, especially those that get lore before Prime versions, and the "better", "outperform" reasoning isn't great, and has plenty of flaws in it. Not that they are uncommon, many people often fall into traps involving alternatives, that could be as likely or even more probably, and having biases to or assigning special values to particular signs/moments. When you ideally need to remember variables, variables being changed, conditions, having a "control", so on. 

Also as already mentioned, Varzia. Varzia's lines about Primes and non Primes are basically DE winking at us the player, to tell us to enjoy the lore/Warframes but try not overthink it to the point where stuff shouldn't exist. Since imagine the alternative? DE decides to remove all your favourite Warframes and weapons because they realised it was inconsistent to the lore because one forum user thought about stuff a lot. People meme about E t e r n a l i s m, a lot to help inconsistencies or potential plot holes, and basically Varzia is that too. Basically any issue or question about how or why something gets a Prime or etc is because V a r z i a. Which may not be satisfying to some, but its fiction, inconsistencies are going to happen, and DE's priority will tend to be big picture, general player enjoyment, tied in with money. 

What I mean is, it's probably way cooler to have Rell's Harrow than Harrow Prime which isn't something many frames can brag about (except protea and revenant  when their primes exist). Think of it as using a legendary weapon wielded by a hero compared to another weapon with better stats. Like "oh, your Harrow is shiny? My harrow was used by it's previous operator to seal the man in the way for thousands of years."

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

4 hours ago, NinthAria said:

The Tenno weren't supposed to exist either. But, like any good empire, the Orokin weren't above using something they didn't plan for--even something they hated--if it furthered their hegemony. They gave Nidus a prime variant, so clearly they're not above gussying up aberrations. In fact, in a manner of speaking, that's really what they've done with all warframes, and the Tenno themselves.

 

I don't even really think it's an inconsistency? The assumption for a long time was that prime warframes (and/or weapons) came first and the normal variants came afterwards, in kind of a prototype version vs. mass-produced version dichotomy, but it was always just that: An assumption. It was never explicitly stated anywhere that primes always came first (though you could argue it's implied in a few places, like Valkyr Prime's description), so it's not really contradicting anything except the headcanon players may have adopted over the years.

Obviously from a meta-narrative standpoint, that line could have been written for the reasons you describe, i.e. to hand-wave away questions about how and why this or that warframe gets a prime upgrade. But it seems a little late in the game to be worrying about something like that, if that was their angle on it--and DE's style has always been to leave many of the details of Warframe's lore blank only to sprinkle in answers much later on. So, even being maximally cynical here, I suspect it was probably meant as both a way to fill in a previously unconfirmed narrative detail and put to bed any future lore questions/concerns about prime releases.

But, I also don't work at DE, so who can say really?

Nidus and Gara's prime trailers imply that the primes we're made first, as Nidus is very clearly shown as one of Ballas's strongest creations to where he literally considers the frame as a demigod (which means Ballas's would probably make him a shiny prime.) Gara was created from the glass created by that Orokin guy with the Vitrica during the orokin area, also implying a prime was used.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, Hayrack said:

Varzia's explanation about primes is enough to justify many inconsistencies.

- Any warframe nowdays is a reconstruct;

- Vanilla warframes and primes coexisted;

- One is either born a prime, or becomes one.

Imo, you wrongly focus on importance of the Harrow as a hero, because the real heroes in lore stories are tenno who command warframes. Regular folks never saw tenno (scrawny teens with demonic powers), so they told stories about these particular warframes as they were mighty gods or heroes, who did them good deeds. Keep in mind that in Chains of Harrow main focus is on Rell, not his warframe.

Regarding Xaku, his prime might as well had his original external armor form sitting on top of the skeletal frame, that is bound by either somatic fibers or Neural Sentry "roots". Xaku might even be an original frankensteinian prime project that either proved to be combat-capable and preservation-worthy, or the vanilla broken form that earned his priming rights.

What I mean is that you are using Rell's Warframe, the one that Rell used to accomplish all those things. Using the prime is the same argument of replacing a mighty hero's sword with one of a higher grade of steel. Sure, it does better, but the one you had before was LEGENDARY.