Punchthrough should be the standard

[RichardKam]

On a side note, punchthrough should be associated with puncture status and proc. 

[George_PPS]

This should be innate for all NON-AOE weapons. Why is this so hard for DE to implement to balance the system if "needed"?

[George_PPS]

2 hours ago, RichardKam said:

On a side note, punchthrough should be associated with puncture status and proc. 

This will be a great idea to balance and to elevate puncture status!

[Sammonoske]

Making punchthrough the new meta wont solve anything or do anything to improve the balance of guns. It anything it puts an even heavier focus on Kuva/Tenet weapons and certain frames deemed "toxic". Octavia is trivializing already trivial content! NERRRFFF!

[Tiltskillet]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)XxHybridFreakxX said:

At the very least, give innate punch through to sniper rifles.

Except for the Sporothrix, where it wouldn't be helpful, they all have some amount of PT or have access to it innately.

[(XBOX)XxHybridFreakxX]

14 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Except for the Sporothrix, where it wouldn't be helpful, they all have some amount of PT or have access to it innately.

I'm still way behind on Deimos, so I never even knew about that sniper. But from what I just read, I definitely want one now. 🤣 So I guess I'll be visiting Deimos again.

And if they have innate punch through, that's awesome and news to me. I know you can just slap a punch through mod on one if you really need it. 

 

[Tiltskillet]

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)XxHybridFreakxX said:

I know you can just slap a punch through mod on one if you really need it. 

By "access to it innately", I was thinking of Lanka and Komo as special cases.  Komo has PT in non-AoE mode, Lanka when it's charged up.

Other than Sporo, the rest have some amount of PT 24-7.

29 minutes ago, (XBOX)XxHybridFreakxX said:

I never even knew about that sniper. But from what I just read, I definitely want one now. 🤣

I don't know much about it either.  The mechanics seem cool though, so I keep meaning to come back to it.  Lanka has been taking up all my snipe-time lately though.

After several years of Warframe, I keep (re)discovering new old weapons. :P

[AizatXtreme123]

On 2022-07-27 at 4:14 AM, (XBOX)XxHybridFreakxX said:

At the very least, give innate punch through to sniper rifles. They're already locked to single targets due to their nature. Even if the punch through isn't much, it should at least have enough to hit a second enemy standing behind the first.

my guy... wut? all snipers (that doesn't already have innate punchthrough) already were given innate 1meter punchthrough. this addition was made... back in 2017. it's already given to u, check b4 asking

[AizatXtreme123]

On 2022-07-27 at 4:14 AM, (XBOX)XxHybridFreakxX said:

At the very least, give innate punch through to sniper rifles. They're already locked to single targets due to their nature. Even if the punch through isn't much, it should at least have enough to hit a second enemy standing behind the first.

my guy... wut? all snipers (that doesn't already have innate punchthrough) already were given innate 1meter punchthrough. this addition was made... back in 2017. it's already given to u, check b4 asking

[L3512]

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't know much about it either.  The mechanics seem cool though, so I keep meaning to come back to it.

Slash weighted status sniper with radial attack that has innate viral and applies status separately, frees up a mod slot because you aren't using CC, mod for CD though and use flat crit.

Great riven dispo, I'm somewhere around 200% SC, 5 MS and 10-12X CD in the final build. When overshield first came out and folk were complaining about Nox eximus I tried an avenging Harrow P which resulted in 1 shot kills if red crit without slash procs or even gal mods or arcane setup on 190 lvl Nox. Not sure where damage falls off and the choice of arcane is a bit difficult as it's a bit slow for merciless but of course procs don't trigger deadhead, avoid PT at all cost, Harrow also solves it's reload time somewhat.

Build for avenging Harrow with panzer.

https://overframe.gg/build/new/5295/sporothrix/?bs=WzEsNTI5NSwzMCwxLFtbMCwwLDBdLFs2MTYsNSwyXSxbNjI1LDUsMF0sWzYwNiw1LDBdLFs1OTAsMywwXSxbNjA5LDEwLDBdLFs1NTIwLDEwLDBdLFs1NTIxLDEwLDBdLFs2NDQsMywxXSxbNTUwNyw1LDBdXV0=

Last slot is for riven, vile or possibly fanged fusillade (or the unreleased 90/60 slash status Deimos mod.), you could also replace target acquired with harkonar scope.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

A lot of things need to be inate on weapons honestly.

I remember they wanted to do a mod weapon rework where mods like serration etc were just already in the weapon so they weren't "mods" anymore to encourage more diverse builds.

Mandatory mods should honeslty just meld in. Because it's not really modding when they're basically Mandatory.

And I know that some builds now don't necessarily require it due to arcanes and the galvanized mods. But generally serration and its equivalent should just be added to the weapon stats now. 

[Venus-Venera]

Am 24.7.2022 um 18:49 schrieb Lewdcifer:

Honestly, its been like so many years and I'm amazed that innate punchthrough of at least 1-2m hasn't been added to every weapon that it's appropriate on. It's such a simple change that's essentially what makes more than half the gun that exist actually even begin to be appropriate to the core identity of the game as a mob shooter. You shoot at MOBS.

Yes, single target has their use, courtesy of 1% of them being able to vaporize your demonstration target of choice faster than AOE weapon can even come close. But really, who the hell wants to vaporize things 1 at a time 90% of the time in a game like this. And all this is ignoring melee actually existing giving you both clear and damage.

PT mods also exist, but it shouldn't take 1/8 mod slot to make a weapon begin to align with the fundamentals of the game. It's ridiculous.

Anyways the point is for these weapons to at least align with the game on a fundamental level. Nothing is going to make them better at what AOE is made for, and vice versa, and they don't have to.

By the way, how about larger bullet hitbox and small magnetism hit assist? Thanks.

signed, primed shred advocate

there are already good single target weapons like new secondary ones from the bounties. only that will not solve the problem. because even though aoe does less damage, it does it at long radius!
single target should be high end damage and not like now! because what's the point of a single target with 20k damage when something like kuva ogris hits with 200k and has a large aoe radius?
the shot can fly forever. but the use is not available!

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

On 2022-07-24 at 10:17 AM, Tiltskillet said:

Innate punch through on most precision weapons would be an huge improvement.  It wouldn't on its own significantly disrupt the AoE meta in content that.most  people play, but it's impactful, easy to understand, and simple to implement.  And it has the great advantage of not relying on nerfs.

I still think AoE nerfs are probably warranted, but they could be much more limited and moderate if precision weapons got this boost.

Personally I think it should be body punch through, not universal.  But that's a quibble.

Well to be honest, that's fair, and Body PT vs Object PT is actually a thing already in the game, the Tenet Arca Plasmor and the Alternox feature this already. Giving most guns a value of 1.2 or higher would be perfectly reasonable and functionally allows you to pierce through about three enemies at once, which sounds fair to me.

The only thing I'd like to suggest is that projectile weapons gain a mix of both, to make them a little more appealing. They already have it so they lose velocity and eventually stop when they go through too many objects, so they already have a balanced system in place. Just make it so they can freely pierce through all enemies with no reduction, but geometry works as it does currently. Considering how they're described I would think that's how they were supposed to function anyway.

Though to be honest, DE might want to just look at some of the stats of the other gun types in general too. A lot of the older AR's need some love and the semi-auto rifle category has always struggled. I think AoE should be the main priority of course, but it's not going to solve much if that's all they do. A lot of specific guns and some gun types in general have always just kind of sucked.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Cram Duahcim said:

A lot of things need to be inate on weapons honestly.

I remember they wanted to do a mod weapon rework where mods like serration etc were just already in the weapon so they weren't "mods" anymore to encourage more diverse builds.

Mandatory mods should honeslty just meld in. Because it's not really modding when they're basically Mandatory.

And I know that some builds now don't necessarily require it due to arcanes and the galvanized mods. But generally serration and its equivalent should just be added to the weapon stats now. 

You can do something like that, but you'd probably have to expand the system in general to something more like how modding the RJ works. Which is a core section, a "powers" section and an auxillary section. Brozime actually had a good video he posted on how he'd fix modding, I'd check it out.

[(XBOX)XxHybridFreakxX]

18 hours ago, AizatXtreme123 said:

my guy... wut? all snipers (that doesn't already have innate punchthrough) already were given innate 1meter punchthrough. this addition was made... back in 2017. it's already given to u, check b4 asking

Please forgive me oh mighty superior master of all Warframe knowledge that I didn't go and check the wiki before posting my own thoughts and opinions on the forums. 

It's not a big deal. It was only a suggestion. 🤣 And if they do have innate punch through, it sure doesn't seem like it. I mainly use snipers for my primary and never noticed it. But I also mostly just use melee, so 🤷‍♂️

[PublikDomain]

Punchthrough could be innate for anyone and everyone that wants it today - if it weren't for the game's busted damage modding system that encourages slotting nothing but damage mods. Anyone can today of their own volition equip punchthrough mods on every one of their guns, but few if any ever will because that doesn't give you bigger numbers. It's easy to ask for everything you don't want to give up bigger numbers for being given to you for free, but it'd be better if you could feel free to mod for things other than damage in the first place.

On 2022-07-26 at 6:25 PM, RichardKam said:

On a side note, punchthrough should be associated with puncture status and proc. 

Something I've been saying for a while now. Puncture procs really should puncture enemy Shields/Armor like they used to way back in the day, not Slash, and give an escalating bonus punchthrough with each level of the proc. The more procs you stack, the further your subsequent Puncture procs should punch through your target and hit stuff behind.

[Tiltskillet]

42 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Punchthrough could be innate for anyone and everyone that wants it today - if it weren't for the game's busted damage modding system that encourages slotting nothing but damage mods. Anyone can today of their own volition equip punchthrough mods on every one of their guns, but few if any ever will because that doesn't give you bigger numbers. It's easy to ask for everything you don't want to give up bigger numbers for being given to you for free, but it'd be better if you could feel free to mod for things other than damage in the first place.

Ehh, well, you're making an extremely good point about the underlying system.  But if we didn't have the option to use slots on "mandatory" damage mods, Punch Through would be the top "mandatory" affix for just about every weapon where it wasn't a drawback and didn't have it innately.

I know many people disagree on this, but I already see it as "mandatory". (Rather than continue to put quotes around mandatory, maybe I should say obligatory.) Precision weapons that don't have it feel to me much like if melee or AoE ranged  weapons had their output blocked by bodies.  Not just damage reduced,  but eliminated, and any ancillary effects too.  In other words, ineffectual, in a game with as many enemies as this.  To me, Punch Through is just the nearest parallel to this inherent ability in AoE.

You're right in any case though.  Make PT innate, and I'll replace it with direct damage mods on the weapons that are lacking in that, and indirect damage mods on most of the rest.  But it's not entirely my fault:  there are very few mods that don't fit into either of those categories.  Possibly none, depending on how carefully we define "indirect".  After all, weapons don't have much of a role besides neutralizing enemies, usually by killing them; in a game that's largely about neutralizing enemies, usually by killing them.

As I understand it, you'd also reduce the slots available in your system.  Which is sensible.  But expect PT to be squatting permanently in one of them.

[PublikDomain]

22 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I know many people disagree on this, but I already see it as "mandatory". (Rather than continue to put quotes around mandatory, maybe I should say obligatory.) Precision weapons that don't have it feel to me much like if melee or AoE ranged  weapons had their output blocked by bodies.  Not just damage reduced,  but eliminated, and any ancillary effects too.  In other words, ineffectual, in a game with as many enemies as this.  To me, Punch Through is just the nearest parallel to this inherent ability in AoE.

Just wanted to ask, is punchthrough really that impactful? You're not the only one to say this. I mainly use the Quellor these days, which tbf has a little innate punchthrough already, but when I shoot at single targets I'm not corralling them around trying to chain headshots - I just shoot them one at a time. The only time punchthrough can make a difference for single-target weapons is when enemies line up, and that really isn't all that common. Most combat has a few guys spread out in cover with a few out in the open running towards you, but they're not going to be directly lined up very often. It's surprisingly hard to find plain old Warframe gameplay footage for me to show an example from, but here from some guy's SP Mot endurance run on the Void tileset.

Only two enemies here out of seven could be hit with one shot with punchthrough, the two guys on the stairs.

Or here (pardon the low quality, blame YouTube):

Where of thirteen or so enemies on screen again only two are lined up, the one guy on the top left jumping over a railing and the Lancer behind him. And he's only lined up for a brief second.

I've never found that having punchthrough makes that much of a difference. It's nice when it's free (or if you could take it without sacrificing damage), but outside of specific scenarios or grouping abilities it's not at all on the level of AoE and I really don't see how it's supposed to make single-target weapons competitive like is commonly suggested.

[Tiltskillet]

11 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

Just wanted to ask, is punchthrough really that impactful?

Oh, absolutely, though one has to think some about how to set it up.  Which is some work in certain areas, and hardly any in others, but the effort mainly involves avoiding terrible spots for it and letting enemies do the work.  And for me, it always makes things more interesting. 

In those pictures, one good position would be with the archway on my shoulder, which would give me a few different lines with multiple enemies as they come around corners, while providing cover from those above and on the stairs.  Another would be going back further into that hallway, which would naturally channel targets onto the same level and into lines as they come around the arch, and again, restricting fire from the rest.   Solo, I can't stay in any one place for long, so I want to make sure each shot counts for as much as possible.

And while that's how I play most of the time because it's fun, and to me, natural, that's  not even making the most of punch through.  Where it gets simultaneously way easier and absolutely bonkers is with vortex abilities.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

14 hours ago, (XBOX)Graysmog said:

You can do something like that, but you'd probably have to expand the system in general to something more like how modding the RJ works. Which is a core section, a "powers" section and an auxillary section. Brozime actually had a good video he posted on how he'd fix modding, I'd check it out.

That's kinda what I was alluding to without the depth, he's someone that I feel DE should use as a resource (I actually think he consulted on the upcoming Mag rework)

But the idea is the same the modding system needs more emphasis on "modding" vs using required mods that are in every build 

[Pakaku]

I’ve been thinking punchthrough should be part of the Puncture proc effect. That would give puncture procs a proper use, and possibly put it on par with slash procs. Punchthrough mods wouldn’t be made obsolete either, since they’re still applicable no matter your damage-type distributions.

[AizatXtreme123]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)XxHybridFreakxX said:

Please forgive me oh mighty superior master of all Warframe knowledge that I didn't go and check the wiki before posting my own thoughts and opinions on the forums. 

It's not a big deal. It was only a suggestion. 🤣 And if they do have innate punch through, it sure doesn't seem like it. I mainly use snipers for my primary and never noticed it. But I also mostly just use melee, so 🤷‍♂️

i mean, u did ask for punchthrough, even if it is a tiny bit. dont have to check the wiki, just play the game n see the stats. only reason i knew it was added was cuz i was there when ppl asked for it back then as well when it truly didn't have any punchthrough 

[SenorClipClop]

A useful buff, but not nearly enough of a change to soften the meta. Enemies need to be lined up for Punchthrough to work, which isn't always doable when the player is airborne or moving at high speeds, or if the enemies are getting moved around, knocked down etc. And in the end, sometimes getting an extra kill or two with your shot isn't going to hold a candle to one-click deleting a room's worth of enemies.

[KittySkin]

For me PT should be part of other useful mods. A prime example for me is shred.

PT + FR. While PT its wasted against single enemies, the added FR makes it a not wasted slot.

 

A primed version of the shotgun one (PT + Reload Speed) can absolutly be viable since they reload A LOT.

 

And for secondaries it could be IDK, PT + Ammo eficiency or something like that, again, PT can be wasted, but AEF will be worth having during those down times.

And a primed variation of said mod can really shine with up to 55% ammo efficiency, doubling your mag size (or potentially doublimg it), making sustained DPS higher reducing reload times.

 

All of those are ways to increase or stavilize DPS fighting agains weapon innate weaknesses (for the most part) with PT as the deciding factor.