The impact AoE nerf could have

[cute_moth.npc]

Don't nerf weapons because of some kind of theoretical Steel Path 2 where only the meta guns will work, diversity will be choked even more and matchmaking will be diluted even further,

Or nerf the weapons and we can have a bit more diversity back and Steel Path 1, it can go back to being the "hard mode" it was supposed to be, without diluting the matchmaking even more?

I choose option 2! Nerfs! 

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, SaulRialp said:

Instead of Nerf the meta can you relese new dificulty modes

SP definitely needs to suffer the same fate as older "challenge" modes like Nightmare missions, Sorties and Arbitrations, all killed by powercreep.

[trst]

You'd have a point if we weren't able to trivialize level cap enemies. A Steel'er Path isn't going to solve anything.

But the core of the issue is that the raw efficiency of AOE weapons have killed co-op like no other. There is no reason to play with others when any one player can solo a mission for you with you having no choice but to take the same AOE weapons, leave and go solo, or not play the game but get rewarded for it.

AOE needs to be nerfed because it takes gameplay away from others. It's the same reason many previous metas/builds got nerfed or reworked. It's about time DE continues the trend and kneecaps AOE for the sake of game health. Making a new higher tier of difficulty both ignores the issue any does nothing to prevent AOE from continuing to do there what it does everywhere else.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

Steel Path. Super Steel Path? Ultra Steel Path? Mega Steel Path? Maximum Over Steel Path?

Steel Path was already a band-aid for the unrestrained player power creep along with Damage Attenuation, invincibility phases, status immunity and Overguard. 

In Warframe, everything multiplies with everything and DE decides to multiply more stuff to fix it. It hasn't worked and will never work. Warframe probably needs to rework the entire damage and scaling system, which is basically a new game. Why do you think Steve jumped over to Soul Frame?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Yeah I want single target buffed in general. Aoe gets used because it better, and even the best single target damage weapons cant one shot steel path outside of god builds.

Why is it I have a Latron with base corrosive, or radiation, a near guaranteed crit, a 10.2 crit multiplier, and an augment that gives me 20% damage on sequential shots but I struggle with it at higher levels? Simply because the reload is too long and it takes too many shots on enemies.

Or a vulkar that is a slot machine of slash, that one shots everything including eximus at high level but I my fire rate and reload is so slow, my dps lacks.

Meanwhile you rub to braincells together on a bramma, and you are set forever.

I dont think the solution is to nerf whats good, its to lower the requirements for good single target damage builds, and buffing their dps in general.

I one shot steel path with single target, and without a "god build" (whatever you think that is). It's called Grendels toxin buff against corpus.

Or 100% armor strip against corrupted and grineer.

And infested is so weak it doesn't matter what you use. 

Your Latron is weak because you aren't debuffing the enemies or buffing yourself.

[trst]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Yeah I want single target buffed in general. Aoe gets used because it better, and even the best single target damage weapons cant one shot steel path outside of god builds.

Why is it I have a Latron with base corrosive, or radiation, a near guaranteed crit, a 10.2 crit multiplier, and an augment that gives me 20% damage on sequential shots but I struggle with it at higher levels? Simply because the reload is too long and it takes too many shots on enemies.

Or a vulkar that is a slot machine of slash, that one shots everything including eximus at high level but I my fire rate and reload is so slow, my dps lacks.

Meanwhile you rub to braincells together on a bramma, and you are set forever.

I dont think the solution is to nerf whats good, its to lower the requirements for good single target damage builds, and buffing their dps in general.

Even if every non-AOE weapon was capable of one-shotting enemies it wouldn't result in an increase in usage for those weapons except maybe for extreme endurance runs. But those are runs the game discourages and that an insignificant portion of the community engages with in the first place.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that in a room of ten scattered enemies a regular weapon needs to be fire up to ten times. Meanwhile a single shot from an AOE weapon would have hit multiple, if not all, enemies and likely killed most of them.

Even if enemies are in a hallway where punchthrough would be effective the AOE weapon would still be hitting multiple enemies per shot. And most of the game isn't enemies crammed into single file halls.

There simply is no way in which buffing single target damage resolves the disparity between these weapon classes.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I one shot steel path with single target, and without a "god build" (whatever you think that is). It's called Grendels toxin buff against corpus.

Or 100% armor strip against corrupted and grineer.

And infested is so weak it doesn't matter what you use. 

Your Latron is weak because you aren't debuffing the enemies or buffing yourself.

Everything gets better or if you buff yourself or debuff enemies. Most AOE weapons dont need to do that, my weapons dont need to do that but they get better if you do. The argument that my build is weak solely because I'm not relying on a frame to make it better is null. I'll also add if you are relying solely on a frame to make a weapon good then either the weapon or your build is trash.

[(PSN)c1234567890alvi]

I'm fine with them nerfing AoE, under a few conditions:

1. They also nerf the grind/remove junk drops from rotations.

2. They restructure enemy spawns and conditions (because going to Steel Path with a, lets say, Sybaris ends up with the player not having the necessary kill output to keep up life support these days)

3. Single Targets get a buff, because otherwise we are just back to that melee meta again...

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

10 minutes ago, trst said:

Even if every non-AOE weapon was capable of one-shotting enemies it wouldn't result in an increase in usage for those weapons except maybe for extreme endurance runs. But those are runs the game discourages and that an insignificant portion of the community engages with in the first place.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that in a room of ten scattered enemies a regular weapon needs to be fire up to ten times. Meanwhile a single shot from an AOE weapon would have hit multiple, if not all, enemies and likely killed most of them.

Even if enemies are in a hallway where punchthrough would be effective the AOE weapon would still be hitting multiple enemies per shot. And most of the game isn't enemies crammed into single file halls.

There simply is no way in which buffing single target damage resolves the disparity between these weapon classes.

If the AOE required multiple shots to kill the group, or if the fire rate or reload is slow enough, It would then equate to a weapon one shotting multiple enemies.

Single target damage needs to be able to kill faster, the solution to this is to: buff the damage (allowing FR and reload to be modded in), buff the FR and Reload(making modding damage in a priority), or do both. 

I dont mind AOE one shotting enemies (granted a match Fr and reload). I'm looking at the level of DPS; we need to reach with other weapons. 

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Nerf AoE

Making new difficulties cause of AoE is the most brain dead thing I've seen, that just going to be bullet sponges and everyone is going to be forced to use AoE cause of bs damage requirements that would generate. #*!% that and let's roll out if some nerfs so we curb stomp this power creep and when every thing is actually balance then we make new difficulties around the 300+ weapons we have not 3 

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

12 minutes ago, trst said:

The simple fact of the matter is that in a room of ten scattered enemies a regular weapon needs to be fire up to ten times. 

Exactly, Larger mags, shorter reloads, and higher fire rate would help us do this quicker and may let us catch up to AOE, assuming that is that AOE also gets slowed down by reload, fire rate, and tankier enemies.

You then also have the issue that not all single target weapons can one shot reliably at high levels, buffing damage on single target would help here too.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

14 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Everything gets better or if you buff yourself or debuff enemies. Most AOE weapons dont need to do that, my weapons dont need to do that but they get better if you do. The argument that my build is weak solely because I'm not relying on a frame to make it better is null. I'll also add if you are relying solely on a frame to make a weapon good then either the weapon or your build is trash.

What do you think abilities are for, then? Just curious....

[trst]

7 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

If the AOE required multiple shots to kill the group, or if the fire rate or reload is slow enough, It would then equate to a weapon one shotting multiple enemies.

Single target damage needs to be able to kill faster, the solution to this is to: buff the damage (allowing FR and reload to be modded in), buff the FR and Reload(making modding damage in a priority), or do both. 

I dont mind AOE one shotting enemies (granted a match Fr and reload). I'm looking at the level of DPS; we need to reach with other weapons. 

That still doesn't resolve the fact that in the time it took to aim and fire at the first enemy in a room you only hit one enemy with a non-AOE weapon while the AOE weapon hit multiple things in the room with no aiming required.

Even guaranteed one-shots on all single target weapons do not fix that gap. More damage does not magically make you deal damage to an enemy you didn't fire at. And if it did then we'd be in the far worse situation of every weapon is an AOE weapon.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

What do you think abilities are for, then? Just curious....

I'm not saying that abilities shouldn't be used, I'm saying not to rely on them. Having a gun you can only use with one warframe means that weapon isn't an option for the other 90% of your playtime. Or if an energy leech shows up you all of a suddenly cant kill because you relied on your abilities too much.

You also didnt mention my point about AOE weapons not needing ability crutches, yet you think it's balanced that single target should.

[Xaero]

2 hours ago, SaulRialp said:

DE please dont nerf just weapons

FTFY

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

2 minutes ago, trst said:

That still doesn't resolve the fact that in the time it took to aim and fire at the first enemy in a room you only hit one enemy with a non-AOE weapon while the AOE weapon hit multiple things in the room with no aiming required.

Even guaranteed one-shots on all single target weapons do not fix that gap. More damage does not magically make you deal damage to an enemy you didn't fire at. And if it did then we'd be in the far worse situation of every weapon is an AOE weapon.

AOE is always gonna be braindead, I aint fighting that. I'm saying that AOE needs a cooldown in-between shots, where single target can be more constant in its killing. However, Single target isn't constant now hence my recommended buffs. Doing both would then allow for two different playstyles.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

4 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

I'm not saying that abilities shouldn't be used, I'm saying not to rely on them. Having a gun you can only use with one warframe means that weapon isn't an option for the other 90% of your playtime. Or if an energy leech shows up you all of a suddenly cant kill because you relied on your abilities too much.

You also didnt mention my point about AOE weapons not needing ability crutches, yet you think it's balanced that single target should.

"Energy Leech/Parasitic Eximus units spawn a small purple Energy Leech Zone under visible players within line of sight, which collapses after 3 seconds. Tenno that remain in the zone when it collapses will be inflicted a  Magnetic proc. Sources of Magnetic resistance, such as  Arcane Nullifier, will entirely negate its effects but not the damage."

3 seconds and a visual indication is not enough to avoid? Just wanting to clarify....

 

Also, have you tried using an unbuffed bramma/zarr against steel path enemies that aren't debuffed? 

The damage does fall off after awhile. 

Any weapon can kill weak low level enemies otherwise.

You will eventually need to buff whatever weapon you're using or debuff the enemies. 

[Tyreaus]

2 hours ago, SaulRialp said:

Instead of Nerf the meta can you relese new dificulty modes? Imagin a level 2 steel path with ennemys with 200 level more and 300% to 500% more shields/health/armor. There aoe weapons will not be the same trust me. 

So we rehash the process that occurred with Steel Path, highlight whatever discrepancies exist between weapons (i.e. whatever the meta is), and call for some kind of buff to expand arsenal options, just to add another new difficulty mode, highlight discrepancies between weapons, call for another buff to expand arsenal options, just to add another new difficulty mode...

How far do we go? How many times do we keep buffing things and missing the mark, requiring yet another difficulty mode to push things forward again, since heaven forbid we step backwards? Is it even doable before game mechanics break, integers overflow, and level caps reach a programmatic ceiling that doesn't allow scaling to go any further? It wasn't all that long ago when we could get integer overflows (thankfully just on number displays) with relative ease.

Assuming, of course, you can make those difficulty modes worthwhile to play. We're still stuck in Starchart for relics, after all.

And speaking of Starchart, that is the place most people think when discussing what to do with AoE weapons. They're generally not a problem in Steel Path (in large part because people don't really run Steel Path all that much). Saying to make a new difficulty mode is to say, "I don't care about the problem people are discussing; here's my solution that creates a facsimile of pathos without actually addressing the problem." At least the people who say "just do solo" or "AoE isn't a problem because people like an easy game" are addressing the problem in its context.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

10 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

3 seconds and a visual indication is not enough to avoid? Just wanting to clarify....

Also, have you tried using an unbuffed bramma/zarr against steel path enemies that aren't debuffed? 

The damage does fall off after awhile. 

Try and tell me you've never lost energy to the energy leech eximus, it happens. It happens more so if you're side tracked by focus-firing certain enemies.

Indeed the damage does falloff after a while but you are talking endurance runs. I'm talking about the difference in taking a modded AOE vs a modded STW into the same mission, and trying to compete in that level. Then AOE will win, and out dps the STW. Then if you use abilities that extends the viability of your weapons damage then the AOE will be viable to a higher level. 

The ability usage is not gonna make the STW better than the AOE.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb SaulRialp:

DE please just dont nerf weapons, take a look one year back, steel path was released and the only viable way to defeat ennemys was vía melee, then comed the melee meta, after that you nerfed melees, and Buff prinary weapons then comed the aoe meta, just Instead of Nerf the meta can you relese new dificulty modes? Imagin a level 2 steel path with ennemys with 200 level more and 300% to 500% more shields/health/armor. There aoe weapons will not be the same trust me. 

who should play it and why? sp isn't even worth it now if you don't need arcanes. even for kuva, arbi is more likely to be played.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, Beowulf22 said:

I agree, the difficulty being that there are very few situations that call for anything new. I think the new eximus units are a start at that with difficulty in the way of the Guardian Eximus for example. The real challenge is enemy design. All enemies are roughly the same, mindless drones that run at you that can be killed with ease. things like the Nox are better design due to needing to actually aim for the head. Unqiue enemy designs that require different processes to kill would help a lot I think

The AI and diversity of enemies in Warframe tends to get a bad rap in my opinion, in part because players blow everything up before they get to do anything (at times paired with cc), in part because a lot of players play things like survival, where AI is turned down, in part because DE apparently can't balance their game properly and in part because DE doesn't use the diversity available to them, already in the game, enough. A lot of players don't seem to even realize how tactical enemies certain enemies actually are in Warframe. Sure, the AI can do with some sprucing, but DE needs to balance lategame first.

The Eximus changes themselves are, in my opinion, quite interesting, but it is marred with the travesty that is Overguard, due to DE either not caring, or being unable to balance cc properly. More unique enemies can't hurt, but honestly, Warframe has a ton of different enemies that move differently, behave differently and have different weaknesses. You have enemies maintaining different ranges, some are very aggressive, some are more tactical, using formations, using cover, dodging player aim, throwing grenades when players are in an area too long, other forms of area denial, disarming of players, knockdowns, blocking of fire, trying to raise alarms etc... I recall there being an enemy that wall runs and bullet jumps in pursuit of the player, but I can't remember the last time I saw one of them! Where the hell are they? Throw more of them in some missions if you are looking to spice things up.

All the pieces of the puzzle are right there ready to be placed in the proper spots, but for whatever reason, they refuse to do it.

[Yamazuki]

11 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

AOE is always gonna be braindead, I aint fighting that. I'm saying that AOE needs a cooldown in-between shots, where single target can be more constant in its killing. However, Single target isn't constant now hence my recommended buffs. Doing both would then allow for two different playstyles.

While reload speeds should be lower across the board and likely magazine capacities, as they are fairly high [low mag] given the game Warframe is, not all single target weapons are quick firing weapons. In a multi-enemy situation, a sniper rifle unless it's given aoe, is never going to compete with something like Kuva Karak when it's properly modded. SLower high burst weapons would need to use specific Warframes to reduce the delay between shots and their reload times. This whole, "all weapons need to have similar power" is never going to happen unless you make them all behave very similarly. Different weapons dominate in different content types, it is no different to how you see different builds or Warframes in different content types.

[(PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO]

Keep them as they are and fix the bugs, also make conclave rep available by other means and we all cool.

[Tyreaus]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)TONI__RIBEIRO said:

make conclave rep available by other means and we all cool.

This makes me wonder if there's a Warframe parallel to Godwin's law. That as a discussion on Warframe progresses, the chance of Conclave being brought up increases.

Even if it's entirely tangential to the topic.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

12 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

While reload speeds should be lower across the board and likely magazine capacities, as they are fairly high [low mag] given the game Warframe is, not all single target weapons are quick firing weapons. In a multi-enemy situation, a sniper rifle unless it's given aoe, is never going to compete with something like Kuva Karak when it's properly modded. SLower high burst weapons would need to use specific Warframes to reduce the delay between shots and their reload times. This whole, "all weapons need to have similar power" is never going to happen unless you make them all behave very similarly. Different weapons dominate in different content types, it is no different to how you see different builds or Warframes in different content types.

"all weapons need to have similar power"

Not power, balance.

However we are in the case where everything has lower dps than an AOE weapon.

Thus, everything needs to be brought up. 

The solution is to increase mag size, reload, fire rate, or damage, to be concurrent with AOE's strength.

• Snipers and shotguns should be the kings of one shotting enemies
• Autorifles and autoshottys should be the king of group killing and statproccing.
• Semi and burst rifles should be a balance of those.

But right now the solution to everything is AOE. 

• Wanna one shot? AOE
• Wanna kill a group? AOE

The reason I am against nerfing AOE is that nerfing AOE is gonna make the high levels harder for the average player. Simply for the fact they cant keep up with the number of enemies(warframes aside).