The impact AoE nerf could have

[Tyreaus]

48 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

The AI and diversity of enemies in Warframe tends to get a bad rap in my opinion, in part because players blow everything up before they get to do anything (at times paired with cc), in part because a lot of players play things like survival, where AI is turned down, in part because DE apparently can't balance their game properly and in part because DE doesn't use the diversity available to them, already in the game, enough. A lot of players don't seem to even realize how tactical enemies certain enemies actually are in Warframe. Sure, the AI can do with some sprucing, but DE needs to balance lategame first.

To add: I think part of it is that the mix of disorganized and numerous spawns makes for chaotic groups. Individual enemies might have unique behaviours and movement and the like, but it's hard to discern - and thus appreciate - those movements when there's so much going on. It's like that one video of the people passing basketballs around and, at the end, it asks if you noticed the guy in the monkey suit dancing in the background.

[Berzerkules]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because Knowing DE. They’ll heavily nerf the overperformers to the point of uselessness, and barely buff the underperformers.

They will probably just hit every aoe like they did last time when they added stagger to everything even if it had no self damage. Like the Zakti, a weapons that opens enemies to finishers but now staggers you if you get into melee range.

It's just funny that when people say AoE needs a nerf they are really talking about 3 weapons. The majority of weapons that will be effected aren't going to be the offenders. And you know as soon as DE nerfs AoE weapons forums will be flooded with nerf Saryn etc. because nothing changed. 

[MutoManiac]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Why is it I have a Latron with base corrosive, or radiation, a near guaranteed crit, a 10.2 crit multiplier, and an augment that gives me 20% damage on sequential shots but I struggle with it at higher levels?

The Latron was by far the worst weapon I have ever used. I feel your pain. It took me about 3 months to level it, as I would use it, swear a lot and put it right back after 2 mins. 😆 Now I equip weapons like that and just use melee or secondaries until they are finally maxed and sell them immediately so I never have to see them again. 

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

4 minutes ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

The Latron was by far the worst weapon I have ever used. I feel your pain. It took me about 3 months to level it, as I would use it, swear a lot and put it right back after 2 mins. 😆 Now I equip weapons like that and just use melee or secondaries until they are finally maxed and sell them immediately so I never have to see them again. 

I love the Latron. Just Semi-rifles in general. You have to put a lot of work in it to make a good endgame build.

[MutoManiac]

Just now, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

I love the Latron. Just Semi-rifles in general. You have to put a lot of work in it to make a good endgame build.

I just can’t stand weapons that have trouble taking out low level enemies with just a few mods on it. My expectations for those types of weapons are not high so I don’t usually bother. Not that it’s the go to reference, but it is in the “weak picks” section of Overframe.

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

2 minutes ago, m_a_r_c_h_ said:

I just can’t stand weapons that have trouble taking out low level enemies with just a few mods on it. My expectations for those types of weapons are not high so I don’t usually bother. Not that it’s the go to reference, but it is in the “weak picks” section of Overframe.

Im speaking about the Latron Prime and Latron Wraith. Theres also an augment that gives you 20% more damage per shot, and it helps I have a CC, CD, Elec, - puncture riv on it.

[MutoManiac]

2 minutes ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

Im speaking about the Latron Prime and Latron Wraith. Theres also an augment that gives you 20% more damage per shot, and it helps I have a CC, CD, Elec, - puncture riv on it.

Oh, ok, I was thinking of the basic one. Just like the Nukor I guess as it was terrible compared to the Kuva Nukor which is my favorite secondary.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)elementXGHILLIE said:

The reason I am against nerfing AOE is that nerfing AOE is gonna make the high levels harder for the average player. Simply for the fact they cant keep up with the number of enemies(warframes aside).

No it will not make it harder for players, it will make them learn to use their loadouts. There's more to the game than unbalanced bullS#&$ AoE. People been doing high level content before this crutch and they be able to do it after this S#&$ get rightfully nerfed.

There's 490 weapons in this game i think you can find something use after AoE is nerfed. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

It has been suggested. Like this is currently the mostly highly discussed, current hot button/big issue, polarising, controversial topic in the game. It may even be possible, that pretty much every realistic practical idea around it has already been brought up by someone, somewhere. We are just at the stage where people are just repeating and echoing sentiment and people also have the urge to personally express their ideas, solutions, arguments, counter arguments, counter counter arguments. To be clear, not that I am personally suggesting this is a bad thing, such happens a lot in general in life, and in games, in forums etc its often very repetitive and cyclical. As people we also like expressing ourselves, even if we are expressing common, repetitive points, ideas or arguments. Then reacting to others expressions and having the urge to add our take. 

I mean, thats me right now, I love talking about the funny, cyclical and idiosyncratic ways people as a whole, self included express our ideas, haven't even talked directly about AOE in Warframe yet, the actual topic. 

Speaking of though, how about this? AOE isn't a problem... AOE bullets are the problem? What if we make each Zarr and Bramma shell/bullet cost 10 Platinum? Eh eh? So each time you press fire, you use Platinum, and if you go into negative Platinum your account is banned until 2035? This would definitively solve the AOE issue, since people would be inconvenienced and frustrated to use a weapon that could ban them. Average enemy life expectancy would also sky rocket, its winning all around!! 

Alternatively, albeit a very exaggerated silly example, this basically idea goes down the same route of 'nerfing via inconvenience" which like... depends on the context and circumstance? Weapons having different strengths and weaknesses, can be fun, because it gives rise to variety/diversity and allows for people to have the options of looking for in game ways, whether via builds, modding, Warframe choice, Arcanes etc Rivens to try and min/max to offset weaknesses, enhance strengths. The Kuva Hek is very different to Tenet Flux is different to Stropa, is different to Glaive Prime is different to Kuva Nukor. Each usually has a relative inconveniencing factor compared to the others, plus a strength/use thats also different. 

Generally speaking though, taking established weapons and then nerfing/adding inconveniencing factors to them... well thats another whole complicated issue. Especially when you add in complicated factors like general playerbase, those critical of something and don't use it and so don't care or want it to be nerfed/inconvenienced, and those that actually do use it and are happy. Adding more complications is how balanced is achieved around nerfs and buffs and other changes that interact with such changes in general. 

Personally I am mixed about AOE, since I am generally not a huge fan. Sometimes a player sentiment is that "you should use the weapon that is the most efficient because it gets the job done faster, and so you can get rewards and loot faster..." and then even some resentment around that, because to some Warframe is about the grind/farm/loot, but I know personally and this is just myself and my own preferences, I like Warframe for the synergy of powers and weapons. I could clear a room full of enemies with a Kuva Zarr... but I would rather Magnetise a choke, and then use an Exergis. The sound design and haptic feedback, and visuals, and other elements are more satisfying and fun to me. 

That being said, ideas or solutions around the idea of balance by making established weapons, powers etc more annoying, frustrating or an otherwise inconvenience... ehh. Alternatively if enough of a player base is frustrated about a meta... Alternatively alternatively, how many people ate actually bothered by AOE meta? Forums are very bad at gauging accurate sentiment around such issues, since it can be a bit of an echo chamber, frustrated/annoyed voices are often louder than content/satisfied voices, other issues around conformity/biases.

Also my personal fav general repeated solution, is to introduce more fun and potent single target weapons. Like Nataruk, Phenmor, Cedo, Epitaph, Lateum, Tenet Arca Plasma, Kuva Hek. Do I use the gun that can clear trash mobs faster? Or the single shot shotgun that feels satisfying, sounds incredible, has high penetration/punch through, and will clear a cone of tough enemies in front of me? That has some sort of skill mechanic, like a charged shot, that splits enemies heads into two, or gives me a neck massage on headshot kills, IDK. Also Steel Path Relic cracking. 

 

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

1 hour ago, Tyreaus said:

This makes me wonder if there's a Warframe parallel to Godwin's law. That as a discussion on Warframe progresses, the chance of Conclave being brought up increases.

Even if it's entirely tangential to the topic.

 

Yes, its called the Tyreaus Law. 

"Tyreaus Law, short for Tyreaus Law of Teshin's Law around Forgetting the Conclave, and why we Should Instead Embrace the Conclave, is an Internet adage asserting that as an online Warframe discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison to the Conclave or Teshin quotes and memes about the Conclave approaches."

[L3512]

43 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

They will probably just hit every aoe like they did last time when they added stagger to everything even if it had no self damage. Like the Zakti, a weapons that opens enemies to finishers but now staggers you if you get into melee range.

It's just funny that when people say AoE needs a nerf they are really talking about 3 weapons. The majority of weapons that will be effected aren't going to be the offenders. And you know as soon as DE nerfs AoE weapons forums will be flooded with nerf Saryn etc. because nothing changed. 

Kick the minuscule AOE crowd while it's down.

Last night I ran an axi survival with two other players both using Kuva Ogris, without trying super hard I was able to achieve the most kills and also a total of 50% of damage dealt with a Mesa prime, spectra vandal, felarx and praedos.

The complainers aren't going to stop with AOE launchers. Next it will be, nerf nuke frames, nerf any frame that is faster than them with thermal sunder, nerf melee again especially with range rivens. CC like larva or strangledome are annoying because they sweep up enemies and deny other players kills, nerf it.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

Pretty sure that's what ammo is for.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

There's 490 weapons in this game i think you can find something use after AoE is nerfed

Why don't you just use one of those 490 that isn't aoe and just be happy about it?

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)Shodian said:

Why don't you just use one of those 490 that isn't aoe and just be happy about it?

I do, but hard to enjoy the game when AoE spam turn the whole game into a S#&$ty music visualizer and random number display and removes all gameplay to be have cause meta slaves only care about the rewards and need to remove everything that gets in the way to the point the game for them is clicker game, no gameplay just hollow rewards. 

[L3512]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

That being said, ideas or solutions around the idea of balance by making established weapons, powers etc more annoying, frustrating or an otherwise inconvenience... ehh. Alternatively if enough of a player base is frustrated about a meta... Alternatively alternatively, how many people ate actually bothered by AOE meta? Forums are very bad at gauging accurate sentiment around such issues, since it can be a bit of an echo chamber, frustrated/annoyed voices are often louder than content/satisfied voices, other issues around conformity/biases.

AOE is great for missions like exterminate SP incursions, where you want that 5 SE but the appeal of doing an exterminate for the millionth time has lost it's shine. Grab a Bramma or a Zarr and wukong and nuke the mission in a couple minutes. Sometimes like if I have a booster I'll use other weapons and slow it down a bit so that an acolyte spawns however there is no way I want that to be the only option.

 

12 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Also my personal fav general repeated solution, is to introduce more fun and potent single target weapons. Like Nataruk, Phenmor, Cedo, Epitaph, Lateum, Tenet Arca Plasma, Kuva Hek. Do I use the gun that can clear trash mobs faster? Or the single shot shotgun that feels satisfying, sounds incredible, has high penetration/punch through, and will clear a cone of tough enemies in front of me? That has some sort of skill mechanic, like a charged shot, that splits enemies heads into two, or gives me a neck massage on headshot kills, IDK. Also Steel Path Relic cracking. 

I mostly just throttle back in random relic missions, I don't usually take big AOE options, I don't move as fast as I can and I don't kill as fast as I can unless the squad is playing fast. The community could solve this issue overnight themselves without DE, it only takes a bit of thought in the loadout screen or a small adjustment of play-style.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

33 minutes ago, (XBOX)The Neko Otaku said:

I do, but hard to enjoy the game when AoE spam turn the whole game into a S#&$ty music visualizer and random number display and removes all gameplay to be have cause meta slaves only care about the rewards and need to remove everything that gets in the way to the point the game for them is clicker game, no gameplay just hollow rewards. 

I mean, that's on them. I get around this by playing solo or with friends by making a group up. Lot more fun that way.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

10 minutes ago, L3512 said:

AOE is great for missions like exterminate SP incursions, where you want that 5 SE but the appeal of doing an exterminate for the millionth time has lost it's shine. Grab a Bramma or a Zarr and wukong and nuke the mission in a couple minutes. Sometimes like if I have a booster I'll use other weapons and slow it down a bit so that an acolyte spawns however there is no way I want that to be the only option.

 

Very true. I actually started using more AOE recently with the Angels of Zariman update. At first I was using a box breaker Xaku build to clear map of items, so the Void Plumes would be easier to spot on maps, except, I personally struggle to stick to the same Warframe, weapon, load outs etc I started to realise, I could go back to switching Warframes every 2 to 3 missions, and by equipping a Kuva Ogris with Primed Firestorm, I could fire down hallways and open boxes, and they didn't even have to be line of sight. Was great. 

When it came to actually killing enemies, I used my secondary, melee and Warframe abilities. Now I know, a lot of players use the Kuva Ogris way way differently than to how I do, and that creates issues for some other players but I just find it a bit funny. I also have to remember I am at the stage, where, if I am personally lacking the appeal to do something, I just won't play Warframe. 

Regardless, like you, I tend to like the ability for myself and players to have options/choice. 

 

16 minutes ago, L3512 said:

I mostly just throttle back in random relic missions, I don't usually take big AOE options, I don't move as fast as I can and I don't kill as fast as I can unless the squad is playing fast. The community could solve this issue overnight themselves without DE, it only takes a bit of thought in the loadout screen or a small adjustment of play-style.

 

Yeah same. Though in more recent times, I have even started to do more solo Relic cracking as well. Which has slowed down my acquisition of new Primes. I use to have the new Prime farmed within a week of release, but I still don't have Khora or any of her weapons... Probably because I only ran a few PUGs. Then now I am taking a break, so I probably won't have her until the next Prime release, but eh. Just don't feel like playing. 

Whenever I did PUG though, I just tried to be considerate. Not because I was using AOE, but because I have played so much of the game, the levels are easy to predict and I am just faster than a lot of other players. So I try to be courteous. I'll even run past some large groups of enemies, or look for Ayatans, if I think I am killing too much. I'm still usually the first to Extraction anyway. Plus sometimes going too fast makes getting enough Reactant hard. 

I often like to look at my team mates, how they are playing and accommodate as well. Maybe thats just because I am older and the novelty of playing video games with people from other countries is still wild and cool to me. Thats the fun of co-op, is accommodating actual real peoples play styles, as opposed to playing with bots trying to mindlessly get loot. 

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

In Warframe, everything multiplies with everything and DE decides to multiply more stuff to fix it. It hasn't worked and will never work. Warframe probably needs to rework the entire damage and scaling system, which is basically a new game. Why do you think Steve jumped over to Soul Frame?

If everything multiplied with everything we'd be in slightly less deep. In reality only some things multiply with everything, and other things aren't given any multipliers at all. Weapons get multipliers from base damage mods, status effects, multishot and crits. Abilities without built in scaling are lucky to get 2X multiplier. One of many reasons that press-4-to-win meta came about way back when, because pressing any other damage option ability is a complete waste of time and energy.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

They will probably just hit every aoe like they did last time when they added stagger to everything even if it had no self damage. Like the Zakti, a weapons that opens enemies to finishers but now staggers you if you get into melee range.

It's just funny that when people say AoE needs a nerf they are really talking about 3 weapons. The majority of weapons that will be effected aren't going to be the offenders. And you know as soon as DE nerfs AoE weapons forums will be flooded with nerf Saryn etc. because nothing changed. 

Oh right the Gas cloud AOEs still stagger. They should remove that. They’re all not really strong enough to justify the hinderance, and it just logistically makes no sense that a gas cloud would physically stagger or knock down anyone.

[L3512]

31 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

I also have to remember I am at the stage, where, if I am personally lacking the appeal to do something, I just won't play Warframe. 

Aye I stopped doing incursions a couple weeks ago, It's really just kuva and rivens and I'm starting to be over that.

 

34 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Yeah same. Though in more recent times, I have even started to do more solo Relic cracking as well. Which has slowed down my acquisition of new Primes. I use to have the new Prime farmed within a week of release, but I still don't have Khora or any of her weapons... Probably because I only ran a few PUGs. Then now I am taking a break, so I probably won't have her until the next Prime release, but eh. Just don't feel like playing. 

Whenever I did PUG though, I just tried to be considerate. Not because I was using AOE, but because I have played so much of the game, the levels are easy to predict and I am just faster than a lot of other players. So I try to be courteous. I'll even run past some large groups of enemies, or look for Ayatans, if I think I am killing too much. I'm still usually the first to Extraction anyway. Plus sometimes going too fast makes getting enough Reactant hard. 

I often like to look at my team mates, how they are playing and accommodate as well. Maybe thats just because I am older and the novelty of playing video games with people from other countries is still wild and cool to me. Thats the fun of co-op, is accommodating actual real peoples play styles, as opposed to playing with bots trying to mindlessly get loot. 

I like playing and chatting with random people so as I don't really need anything I'd rather just not play instead of doing something like a relic survival solo (though this could be the tedium of single player spawns.). Most missions like relic survivals are pretty good though and you generally see a diverse range of frames and weapons more so than AOE meta. Finding people that played SP survival, disruption or cascade for fun would be nice though, SP is a wasteland and recruit chat is fruitless.

[BloodyMary89]

9 hours ago, SaulRialp said:

DE please just dont nerf weapons, take a look one year back, steel path was released and the only viable way to defeat ennemys was vía melee, then comed the melee meta, after that you nerfed melees, and Buff prinary weapons then comed the aoe meta, just Instead of Nerf the meta can you relese new dificulty modes? Imagin a level 2 steel path with ennemys with 200 level more and 300% to 500% more shields/health/armor. There aoe weapons will not be the same trust me. 

then people would just be back to the old complaint "there is no challenge" higher level enemies wont solve anything when there are people that go to level cap. 

 there are solutions that won't make everyone mad for example when solo you can have you ogris/zarr/bramma spam to your hearts content full aoe size and Everything. When in a party it's nurfed significantly in aoe size. When you use nightwatch napalm only the spammer can see the colors so people can actually play without being blinded. (before you say it yes i know i can change my settings but why should everyone change their gaming experience for 1 aoe spammer?)

 

[Slayer-.]

12 hours ago, Uhkretor said:

Going Solo balances everything...

No, seriously, the amount of problems you won't have, like, ever just by going Solo is... It overwhelms every... "advantage", lets call it that, of going otherwise...

Yep, I never seem to suffer from AOE weapons solo, hell sometimes I just want to smite a level at once, freedom of choice, biatches. 

[PrimalordialBob]

Another post making a big deal about nothing.

AOE players steal kills? Always been a thing long before AOE.

AOE is OP? Everything in Warframe is OP. Warframe's content comes from grind, power fantasy, etc, rather than difficulty. If one wants difficulty they should look elsewhere. Besides, AOE isn't even OP. It just allows you to clear grunt level enemies fast. That shouldn't take any effort, especially when you're repeating a mission dozens of times.

AOE energy is obnoxious? Yes, and this is probably the only thing they should change.

Large amounts of toxicity directed at non-AOE users? That's a people problem, not the weapon's fault.

Warframe is a grindy game, and AOE helps alleviate that grind in numerous ways. The only thing they should change is the energy like night watch napalm. Although AOE isn't out of control, the energy effects are.

[Slayer-.]

 

37 minutes ago, PrimalordialBob said:

Another post making a big deal about nothing.

^{_{AOE players steal kills? Always been a thing long before AOE.}}

^{_{AOE is OP? Everything in Warframe is OP. Warframe's content comes from grind, power fantasy, etc, rather than difficulty. If one wants difficulty they should look elsewhere. Besides, AOE isn't even OP. It just allows you to clear grunt level enemies fast. That shouldn't take any effort, especially when you're repeating a mission dozens of times.}}

^{_{AOE energy is obnoxious? Yes, and this is probably the only thing they should change.}}

^{_{Large amounts of toxicity directed at non-AOE users? That's a people problem, not the weapon's fault.}}

^{_{Warframe is a grindy game, and AOE helps alleviate that grind in numerous ways.}} The only thing they should change is the energy like night watch napalm. Although AOE isn't out of control, the energy effects are.

Hence why when I do go and use my AOE, my energy is black so as not to annoy other folks out there, it also annoys me because I can't see when it's lets say hot pink or fire engine red. 

WARNING DO NOT OPEN THIS SPOILER IF YOU SUFFER FROM SEIZURES, you have been warned. 

The effect is like this below gif ^{(I've had for years)} in my face even when I'm shooting my own Ogris.

WARNING DO NOT OPEN THIS SPOILER IF YOU SUFFER FROM SEIZURES, you have been warned. 

Spoiler

 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)GearsMatrix301:

Maybe just stop wanting to ruin other peoples fun?

Seriously, team mates killing enemies before you can has been a thing since before AOE weapons became prominent. Nerfing AOE weapons isn’t going to change that.

Excactly, don't ruin my fun, nerf AOE weapons!