A philosophical take on "endgame" Warframe

[Graavarg]

Different aspects of "the endgame" has been popping up in the forums for as long as I've played Warframe, with all kinds of suggestions from a multitude of viewpoints. But if you take a step back, they mostly fall into two general categories:

1. New "tougher" content (preferrably with "great rewards").
2. Something (anything!) to fix the "nothing left to do"-problem.

From a philosophical viewpoint these two needs reflect two core Warframe characteristics:

1. The "Path of Power" where you improve your gear and builds, clear the starchart (and other missions and events), increase your MR, conquer tougher and tougher enemies and engage in the "power fantasy".
2. The "Sandbox of Diversity", exploring the complex and huge content spread out all over the Warframe universe and all the knowledge needed to master it and engaging with the parts you like.

While these two core componenents partly overlap, they are (from a philosophical viewpoint) fundamentally different. Becoming more powerful (or "most powerful", going META) essentially incorporates both a clear direction and selective gear principle, and can be described as a triangle. When you start out at the base of that Warframe pyramid all options are available and on the table, but aiming for top (of the triangle/pyramid) means that you continuously leave "less effective and/or productive" gear and missions behind. When you actually/finally reach the top you are also left with only three options:

1. Start using less effective equipment and doing less productive missions.
2. Continue playing an extremely limited "best of the best" version of Warframe.
3. Scream for "more endgame content" in the forum, to get something new to apply and test your "godly power" against (and maybe some new loot to motivate you).

If you go the other core route and play Warframe the "sandbox way" it can also be described as a triangle/pyramid, but flipped upside down and standing on it's top. As you get more gear and opens up more of the Warframe universe, your options of playing continuously increase. Despite the humongous amount of content and options available this way of playing also has an endpoint, in the form of "having everything" and having "done everything". While that "endgame" point is different from the META power fantasy, it is also an "all dressed up and no place to go"-situation. Just like to the "power way" you have three options:

1. Repeating content ad infinitum just for the sake of "playing Warframe".
2. Destroy your existing content and/or buy duplicate content to pseudo-generate new options.
3. Scream for "more content" in the forum (preferrably with new loot as extra motivation).

Assuming that the content provider (DE) actually want to keep the "endgamers" playing the game the solution(s) are fundamentally different. That assumption is, by the way, by no means an automatic "yes", as such "endgamers" potentially contribute less to the real world economy necessary for a game like Warframe. But that is a another (complex) topic. Personally I believe active "endgamers" are fundamentally important for Warframe's continuation, and much more so than any economical calculation of "new player influx" might indicate. This is true of "endgamers" of both types, as new power fantasy-focused players need support and examples of one sort and "Warframe universe"-engaging new players support, knowledge and examples of quite another type.

However, solving "the endgame problems" contains several "impossible" conundrums and paradoxes. For the "Path of Power" it is the insolvable combination of two problems:

1. It is simply impossible to generate new content at the same speed it is devoured by META players. Basically designing, producing, testing and implementing new content takes months, while it is "cleared" in weeks (or days). It is fundamentally impossible to produce new content at the pace needed/wanted by "power players".
2. The only way to increase the longevity of endgame content is to make it "harder". But while that can still serve META, it inherently includes destroying the "power fantasy". The only way to make content last longer is to considerably up the difficulty, which in turn means reducing the success rate of missions (also considerably), which actually means making players a lot less powerful.

DE has tried (and tries) to walk a sort of middle ground, allowing the power fantasy to flourish even at "endgame levels" and instead increasing longevity through drop rates and other "time-consuming" mechanics (even utilizing sellable stuff, the market & the possibility of generating plat from "endgame drops"). But in my opinion this doesn't actually work all that well, since it really isn't all that meaningful for a power-focused player to having to run the same farm again and again, even if it is supposedly "endgame", since it is just as trivialized by the power fantasy as any other content in the game. The only workable solution I can see is a new kind of mission/gameplay, joining the front and participating in an "endless war" where the expectation is to die for something other than loot.

For the "Path of Diversity" the problems are partly and fundamentally different, and so are their solutions. The general problem is a lack of new/interesting things to do, and part of the solution is (of course) "new content". However, when you look more closely at the limitations for "diversity explorers" it is a lot more complex, since a large part of the content actually consists in the form of "variations" and "combinations". There is, already in the game, a huge potential to increase content simply by enabling (and adding) more variation (and combination).

DE has (of course) identified this and one could assume that the Helminth, the multi-polarity forma, the added arcane slots, the re-visited augments and the new weapon-specific mods popping up form an answer specifically to this. While the Helminth are also used by META/power players to increase their power, those options are a tiny (like "really tiny") part of all the "diversity" possibilities coming from infusing the 60+ abilities into any of the four ability "slots" in 50 warframes. Add to that the weekly "invigorations", and the Helminth is all by itself a huge source of more diversity. However, while the paradox for the power fantasy is that it is unachievable without self-destructing, the paradox of diversity is that DE has designed functional mechanisms that are severely limited at the same time. On the other hand, this also means that there are several technically easy pathways to increase diversity (most of which pops up in the forum as suggestions at regular intervals). A few examples:

1. Adding multi-polarity forma ("any polarity slots") or multi-forma slots ("add another polarity") to the eight general warframe and gear slots.
2. Adding unlockable augment slots to warframes (without increasing the mod capacity).
3. Adding an augment slot to weapons for weapon-specific mods (which would turn them into "weapon augments"), or turn all weapon-specific mods into exilus mods (making them usable in the existing exilus slot).
4. Add a clockwards/counter-clockwards switch to all weapons, flipping the way status is combined 180 degrees, or simply a switch to  add weapon inherent damage first (instead of last). This would allow new builds for a lot of existing weapons. Another alternative is new sets of "50/50" status mods with a built-in "combine stop"-effect (they will only combine with "earlier" status mods, not with "later").
5. Allow two companions to accompany warframes into battle.
6. Increase/change to riven slot system, so that ALL weapons can be tinkered with (without having to destroy existing rivens and their accompaning weapon builds).
7. Increase pre-made team slots to five (or six), opening up for another level of co-op play.
8. Double/triple the selection of void fissure missions (considering the amount of missions in the game the minimal void fissure selection is "unfathomable").

To conclude: my main (philosophical) point is that of the two core driving forces in Warframe, the one mostly used (the "power fantasy") is both unsustainable and self-defeating. This in no way means that the power fantasy/META approach isn't fun (it is a lot of fun), only that an "endgame" solution is simply impossible to achieve. Increasing the content diversity further is, on the other hand, quite possible. In practical terms such an approach would also add content to the "power fantasy", as focused and knowledgeable META players quickly finds (power-increasing) uses for almost all new content.

A final word: I am well aware of that there are a lot more reasons for playing Warframe (including role-playing, cosmetics, hanging with friends etc.), but even so I think that the "power fantasy" and the "diversity/exploration" together encompasses most players. And that they are interesting from a philosophical viewpoint, being both parallell and opposite at the same time.

[ant99999]

Ok.

I have no idea how this is connected with philosophy and why it is so long, but I read through it anyway.

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

Basically designing, producing, testing and implementing new content takes months, while it is "cleared" in weeks (or days). It is fundamentally impossible to produce new content at the pace needed/wanted by "power players".

If DE released several new frames and weapons and shoved them all into the same pool as legendary arcanes and required opening reinforced containers to build them, that would easily take months to obtain even a single item.

It isn't 'fundamentally impossible', it's that the game doesn't have much to offer to dilute the boredom of just grinding for stuff to equip to be more efficient at grinding more stuff. So they have to pump out new content more often to keep the players excited.

You're putting it as some fundamental paradox of the universe, but it's just bad game design.

[killerJoke66]

i think new mission types like disruption (i say new cuz relatively)  instead of next open worlds could go long way 

[(PSN)Tomplexthis]

no

[Bertram253]

1 hour ago, Graavarg said:

To conclude: my main (philosophical) point is that of the two core driving forces in Warframe, the one mostly used (the "power fantasy") is both unsustainable and self-defeating. This in no way means that the power fantasy/META approach isn't fun (it is a lot of fun), only that an "endgame" solution is simply impossible to achieve. Increasing the content diversity further is, on the other hand, quite possible. In practical terms such an approach would also add content to the "power fantasy", as focused and knowledgeable META players quickly finds (power-increasing) uses for almost all new content.

Interesting points. It all boils down to the definition of end game you have (and I believe a lot of people have a different definition, which is fine)

To me, power fantasy and power creep are an issue if they make the game unplayable (e.g.: enemies must counter you and they are sooo powerful that if you don't play in a party of 4 perfectly equipped super gods, you die in one hit.) or if they fully trivialize content which removes any substance to the game or any conceptual values to rewards (e.g.: in time investment and overcome challenge)

One of the core issue identified since a year or 2 is that AoE weapons are mostly the best in every cases, meaning that you would never use an automatic rifle for efficiency, for instance. That and maybe ultra big burst damage options like snipers. So, if one summarizes badly the top of the equipment pyramid, it's only 2 weapon types and a few selected warframes. (at least in what one can see in YT...).

As for me, we've reached the time where power creep has settled to be the start of a general issue where there is not enough horizontal choice in the higher weapon hierarchy levels. And the fact that we can see videos on what warframes is S-Tier and which isn't is also the reflection of people interrogating themselves on the options they have once they are reaching the top of power fantasy.

DE has already started to remedy that with the new zariman weapons while you can already feel the evolved weapon modding choices are fairly limted to actually one or 2 viable options.

I'm pretty sure we are about to get what everyone gets when a developer wants to some fresh air for more power fantasy while avoiding to pretty much nerf everything, is some kind of gate where the effectiveness of your equipment gets reduced to make your choices broader again.

[trst]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here this just seems like a whole lot of word salad summed up as "Endgame is dead so just add more powercreep".

 

The thing is the game can support an endgame for optimized builds if it had outlier mechanics knocked down several hundred pegs. As the primary issues that prevent it is that we have so many ways to simultaneously "disable" multiple game systems.

An endgame for optimized builds can function just as it does in any other similar game via steady number inflation (of players AND enemies) so long as it never reaches the tipping point we're currently well past with everything. And considering how the game is designed to incentivize all tiers of content powerfantasies still get to thrive where you have to return to lower content to progress towards stronger gear, resources, or other rewards. Plus we already have systems in place to prop up lower tiered gear which helps retain build diversity.

 

While appealing solely to unrestrained powerfantasy ultimately defeats itself. As it becomes a fantasy driven solely by seeing larger numbers and engaging with enemies less as we're already well past the point where anything else can happen. And while that may be engaging to some it's clearly not engaging to enough players as evident by the constant on-off cycle of the player base between updates. If it was engaging enough then the game wouldn't rapidly lose all the players (if not more than that) who return with every update.

[Bertram253]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Tomplexthis said:

Content Islands, none of Warframes Content, ALL OF THEM, are remotely connected

you go to a place, get the gear, never have a purpose to go back

you Mastery the weapons, frames, and thats it. beyond MR, collections, we have nothing

Fashion Frame is a bs cop out of just throwing money at a problem. that is ignored.

Not talking about fashion frame here yet, but it is indeed the definition of content island and the goal of it. It's also easier to spec for dev and with more insurance it doesn't go against the rest of existing content. I'm pretty sure that's why they do it sometimes between two bigger content drops.

Actually, the starchart can be seen as a content island that links all other content islands XD

End-game is usually different things, but IMHO all linked to the notion of aspiration:

- Fashion is definitely part of it, even if it cannot really be all of it, clearly, but you'd rather look cooler at the end of the game than you were at the start, right?

- Access to special rewards is part of it (hence why I believe kuva and tenet weapons are end game weapons and the first soft gate we have had in warframe)

- Access to special activities or activity levels. Something that we do have gradually all the way up and fits well the rolling content behavior warframe has through gradual updates.

- Access to more choices (more warframes available, more weapons available, ...) and here, I believe the power fantasy in the form of AoE meta is getting in the way of that (and a lot of people have realized that ofc). In a perfect world, we should have more side-grades options to chase and I'm pretty sure they are on it.

- Access to more complex challenges. And that's where I believe something is lacking while it is not easy to define what.

Sisters of parvos and liches are a great system. But they are mostly a solo experience. Eidolons and profit taker are too organic for an entry point. Harder bounties are good and link places but are complex and difficult only through timers, not for the task itself. And spy missions are some kind of anomalies as they can be either too easy or way to hard, and still timed, which means you need to basically solo them for a long time until you figure out.

That's why I still believe a dungeon-like experience (a bit like what was behind the idea of the fortress and bounty stages) with team work and replayable stages could be a PvE start.

And then, as for end-game, there is the question of PvP. I still don't know what would be a great warframe PvP experience. I wonder what were the most successful attempts at Pvp in warframe so far.

[SneakyErvin]

What DE needs to do is balls up and make sweeping changes to their systems and balance just like other companies do from time to time. No, fixing something here and something there isnt enough, they need to do it all at once so all the systems work together. Prior to that, endgame is WF will just be new content to play to chase sidegrades in, or the occasional power creep weapon added like Brammas and Zarrs.

WF lacks a defined connection between player power increases and the actual difficulty of content. Just as it lacks anything that remotely resembles balance between frames and their kits. It is all over the place, where one frame can have a #1 skill that is better than an ult on several other frames, or where two frames with nearly identical skills in a slot still have vastly different numbers tied to them. DE needs to rethink, DE needs to implement an item budget that applies to all things designed for our loadout aswell as applied to everything that goes into designing enemies.

We sit with an "rgp" without any of the restrictions that makes them playable and balanced, restrictions that have been there since the pen and paper age. DE instead just follows the "cool" philosophy, with no actual grasp on balance or restrictions. To make a quick example on how "budget" can work in a game regading class or character creation.

Mutant Chronicles, a pen and paper rpg, used the method of age. When you created your character it was simply based on life and what your character had done since early years up to the point where you start out with him. This ment you could start with a character that had attended many schools and learned alot, maybe become a master marksman, tactician and several other things, which obviously alters his starting potential. But as a trade off it all translated to years, which in turn ment a higher age when starting, which ment that he also started out with altered attributes based on that, making him weaker in certain areas. And if you went the military route, or something else dangerous, years in service could also result in permanent injuries before ever starting out the actual campaign.

In WF such a thing could be translated to a simple pool of points that DE has for the creation of a frame, with each skill costing a different amount of pool points based on which slot they occupy, which in turn decides the starting potential of a skill. This would result in things like spores being as strong as it is would cost budget from other parts of the kit (or the skill itself), so maybe miasma would need to have range, damage, debuff status or something else reduced or cost more, or spores would need a massive energy cost increase to stay within budget to not affect the other skills. This would also solve things like Loki's decoy doing very little, since it would free pool points for other parts of his kit. And looking further at Loki, he would have the potential of massive buffs to his ult and maybe even his stealth if a budget was introduced, since both decoy and switch are very very undertuned skill overall, and so is his stealth and ult if we really consider it all.

[(PSN)Unstar]

9 hours ago, Graavarg said:

To conclude: my main (philosophical) point is that of the two core driving forces in Warframe, the one mostly used (the "power fantasy") is both unsustainable and self-defeating. This in no way means that the power fantasy/META approach isn't fun (it is a lot of fun), only that an "endgame" solution is simply impossible to achieve. Increasing the content diversity further is, on the other hand, quite possible. In practical terms such an approach would also add content to the "power fantasy", as focused and knowledgeable META players quickly finds (power-increasing) uses for almost all new content.

If I understand what you're saying, it sounds like you're saying that DE shouldn't try to make an end-game, and that instead they should just continue to make new content.  And I think that's a very correct answer, considering that any attempt at specifically manufacturing an endgame is likely to be only satisfy a subset of Warframe players for a fleeting time.  In a game like Warframe, each individual player needs to decide for themselves what their endgame is, or whether they'll participate in one at all.

[Graavarg]

6 hours ago, Bertram253 said:

Interesting points. It all boils down to the definition of end game you have (and I believe a lot of people have a different definition, which is fine)

. . .

To me, power fantasy and power creep are an issue if they make the game unplayable (e.g.: enemies must counter you and they are sooo powerful that if you don't play in a party of 4 perfectly equipped super gods, you die in one hit.) or if they fully trivialize content which removes any substance to the game or any conceptual values to rewards (e.g.: in time investment and overcome challenge)

My definition of "endgame" is goal-oriented, as in reaching the "final main goal available" in the game. For a power fantasist that would be the limited set of ultimate power gear, or from a slightly different viewpoint the peak you stand on when there is no more power available. For a diversity explorer that would be when "everything is explored" and there is nothing meaningful and/or new to visit, play or try out.

If you instead focus on actually playing the game, the endgame for the power oriented would be when they reach the end of their (maximum) power. Or in other words when the power fantasy crashes and burns due to the power not being enough to successfully finish missions any more. But while that is the logical endpoint/endgame for "power", Warframe has not had any such content ever (at least as far as I can remember).

On the other hand, in my opinion most Warframe players couldn't even handle endgame difficulty at a 50:50 win/loss-ratio, and of course even more demanding content to a much lesser degree. Which makes all talk of "endgame content" rather silly, since if you are able to indulge in a power fantasy it simply is not "endgame" 😁. So since such a game mode doesn't exist and isn't even compatible with a "power fantasy"-state, it is better to use a goal-oriented definition.

...

Power creep is something totally different, it is basically soul food for the power fantasists in that it adds a little to the peak level to create the appearance of movement/something happening every now and then. Or in other words, it is a mechanism to make it seem as if a level of stagnation hasn't actually been reached. And to "help" players avoid coming to the conclusion that the stagnated peak is also all there is, it is where the power fantasy ends.

[Graavarg]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If I understand what you're saying, it sounds like you're saying that DE shouldn't try to make an end-game, and that instead they should just continue to make new content.  And I think that's a very correct answer, considering that any attempt at specifically manufacturing an endgame is likely to be only satisfy a subset of Warframe players for a fleeting time.  In a game like Warframe, each individual player needs to decide for themselves what their endgame is, or whether they'll participate in one at all.

Mainly "yes". DE could create a real "endgame", but that would mean ripping the rug out from under the power fantasy. You can't logically have both, "endgame" that is so easy you can "power fantasy" your way through it is quite a silly concept (and decidedly NOT "endgame" 🙂).

But I don't think the community could handle endgame content from a difficulty perspective, so personally I think DE should focus on broadening the game instead. Making more "power fantasy" content is a waste of resources, the power fantasists are insatiable and they will only accept content where their power fantasy stays intact (= they "win" easily enough).

I agree totally with that every player should decide for themselves what their endgame is, but from that also follows that DE should focus more on broadening the game rather than moving the power fantasy meter a tiny bit forward.

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

My definition of "endgame" is goal-oriented, as in reaching the "final main goal available" in the game. For a power fantasist that would be the limited set of ultimate power gear, or from a slightly different viewpoint the peak you stand on when there is no more power available. For a diversity explorer that would be when "everything is explored" and there is nothing meaningful and/or new to visit, play or try out.

That would be end of the game, not endgame. Endgame is a phase that starts at a certain point in a game (not exclusive to this type of game or video games in general) and may last for a prolonged time and eventually in a finite game ends when you have reached the actual end of the game. In a game like Age of Wonder this phase might start at say round 10 and can last to round 50 or something.

For me in a game like this, endgame is pretty much anything that allows us to further progress beyond the basic game experience. It doesnt need to be challenging or advanced like many people think, it can be anything including those two things.

[Graavarg]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

That would be end of the game, not endgame. Endgame is a phase that starts at a certain point in a game (not exclusive to this type of game or video games in general) and may last for a prolonged time and eventually in a finite game ends when you have reached the actual end of the game. In a game like Age of Wonder this phase might start at say round 10 and can last to round 50 or something.

For me in a game like this, endgame is pretty much anything that allows us to further progress beyond the basic game experience. It doesnt need to be challenging or advanced like many people think, it can be anything including those two things.

I'm down with that, no problem. But the way I'm using it here is as "the final stage", when a player reaches/fulfils his/her ultimate goal. The end of the game is when you decide to stop playing Warframe. Unfortunately a lot of players reach that end too. Philosophically speaking, the end of the game is the only thing coming after the "endgame" 😉.

[SneakyErvin]

5 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

I'm down with that, no problem. But the way I'm using it here is as "the final stage", when a player reaches/fulfils his/her ultimate goal. The end of the game is when you decide to stop playing Warframe. Unfortunately a lot of players reach that end too. Philosophically speaking, the end of the game is the only thing coming after the "endgame" 😉.

You have a point, and yeah I can agree with it being the final stage. For me it is more the path/journey during the final stage to fulfill my goal. The end of the game is still there for me when I have nothing left to chase, but it is seperate from putting the game down, since it is a game that will get new things to chase eventually. It's more the end of the current journey when/if I reach the point of having done everything in these types of games. I most often reach the point where I put down the game before hitting that end of the game point though. Or like in WF, there is so many different things to chase that neither of the two will happen to me since I enjoy just playing the game too much aswell.

[(PSN)Unstar]

36 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

Mainly "yes". DE could create a real "endgame", but that would mean ripping the rug out from under the power fantasy. You can't logically have both, "endgame" that is so easy you can "power fantasy" your way through it is quite a silly concept (and decidedly NOT "endgame" 🙂).

I think there's a false assumption in this idea, the idea that endgame needs to be difficult or challenging, which is not the case for many different flavors of endgame.  I think that's a very important idea to unpack, otherwise it will artificially constrain the exploration of this idea.

37 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

I agree totally with that every player should decide for themselves what their endgame is, but from that also follows that DE should focus more on broadening the game rather than moving the power fantasy meter a tiny bit forward.

If this is the case it seems like DE should just keep doing their DE thing then, because broadening the game is what they tend to do when left to their own devices.  While I've been playing the game I've seen them introduce Lunaro, Fishing, Hunting, Mining, Eidolons, Liches, Railjack, Operators, Necramechs, Frame Fighter, Featured Dojos, Squad Link, Dog Days, TennoGen, Rivens, and Player Housing.  As well as around a dozen new game modes that revolve around more traditional combat but have different goals and thus require different gameplay patterns.  And Veilbreaker and Duviri are right around the corner and look to be plenty different as well.  DE is always expanding the bounds of Warframe in a variety of ways.

[CrownOfShadows]

You post isn't very clear tbh, and it came across more as a weird triangle rant about how disgusted you are by people asking for better 'end game'. It might've been simpler to just tell us what you think the end-game should be or instead talk about why it's an illusion or something.

From what I deciphered, it sounds like you want more content islands combined with more power creep, aka DE should just hold it's course.

Those things are fine, but as you mention in one of your very first bullets, one major component of the whole end game discussion is the 'nothing left to do' problem. Making more content islands and increasing diversity through arsenal expansion and manipulation is fine, but doesn't solve this fundamental problem, because no matter how many islands you create, due to dev cycles, there will be droughts.

In fact, I think there's a good argument that all the talk about end-game is just thinly veiled talk about content droughts.

So how do you solve content droughts?

 

 

[killerJoke66]

4 hours ago, vanaukas said:

We have 3 new endless missions since just 4 months: Void Cascade, Void Flood, Void Armaggedon. We didn't get any "next open world", yet you are is still suggesting "new missions" instead "next open world". What a great example of "username checks out".

I dont care about your dismissive demeanor , yet Yes , we got 4 or so new mobile defenses .

I dont even know the full extend of what void flood contains of . I dont need to because it is all practically impossible to differentiate from your generic mobile defense 

Only gather mechanic was sort of unique but it ... doesnt add anything to the game i feel .

Disruption is unique in the sense that , the sound indicator , 3 seconds interval nullifier bubble that can not be popped , relatively tanky unit to kill compared to other units in the game etc. , killing minibosses to complete the rounds. 

none the less the new soundtracks are absolute amazing , only thing that saves that update probably 

[killerJoke66]

*sighs* nvm , i should just let whatever contrarians do their own thing sometimes , cant even post a harmless opinion on my own 

go eat my helminth  , i dont owe a gramtically and academically correct rebuttal to your personal disliking of my opinion ^^ 

[Mieo_Mio]

Outside of end game is the reality of what DE wants to do. Do they want a team separation between War and Soul for the indefinite future? (Conjecture) They will use Warframe to help cover production costs for Soul. (Soul will remain a very small team.) and let Warframe fade away when "Duviri" resolves or bleeds out in quest campaign, with a clear implication the Warframe universe is inexorably altered to Soul. This will probably be another 3-5 years. Soul will have debuted, and they will consolidate the two teams again. 

[vanaukas]

34 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

I dont care about your dismissive demeanor , yet Yes , we got 4 or so new mobile defenses .

I dont even know the full extend of what void flood contains of . I dont need to because it is all practically impossible to differentiate from your generic mobile defense 

Only gather mechanic was sort of unique but it ... doesnt add anything to the game i feel .

Disruption is unique in the sense that , the sound indicator , 3 seconds interval nullifier bubble that can not be popped , relatively tanky unit to kill compared to other units in the game etc. , killing minibosses to complete the rounds. 

none the less the new soundtracks are absolute amazing , only thing that saves that update probably 

Ah yes, "everything is mobile defense" argument. Cool.

[Graavarg]

1 hour ago, CrownOfShadows said:

You post isn't very clear tbh, and it came across more as a weird triangle rant about how disgusted you are by people asking for better 'end game'. It might've been simpler to just tell us what you think the end-game should be or instead talk about why it's an illusion or something.

From what I deciphered, it sounds like you want more content islands combined with more power creep, aka DE should just hold it's course.

Those things are fine, but as you mention in one of your very first bullets, one major component of the whole end game discussion is the 'nothing left to do' problem. Making more content islands and increasing diversity through arsenal expansion and manipulation is fine, but doesn't solve this fundamental problem, because no matter how many islands you create, due to dev cycles, there will be droughts.

In fact, I think there's a good argument that all the talk about end-game is just thinly veiled talk about content droughts.

So how do you solve content droughts?

I don't "want" anything. I am just pointing out that "going for power" is a very different reason and/or goal for playing Warframe than "exploring the sandbox/universe", and from this follows that their "endgame" are also quite different. And from that follows that the possible solutions are different. The "power fantasy" doesn't even have a logical endgame solution, unless you destroy the "fantasy" in the process.

Players focusing on "exploring the diversity/sandbox" are in a totally different situation as compared to "power fantasists". They open up more and more content for use while playing, which is the opposite of META-focused power fantasists (which narrows the content down to only the best and the most effective). That's the two triangles: one widens as the game progresses, the other one continually narrows instead.

Content islands and power creep are just descriptions of mechanisms used to create "more of the same" (content). They seldom add anything really new to the game. Neither is a solution to the "nothing left to do"-problem, instead they could best be described as short term quick fixes.

If you want conclusions one could summarize the power fantasy as "fun while it lasts, but logically always a dead end", and so also unsuitable as a building block for any real endgame content. Warframe "sandboxing" has the potential for a humongous amount of added content, which also translates into allowing players more diverse paths and goals for playing Warframe. But for some unfathomable reason DE does not seem to think that this is of any greater importance, even if the technical solutions partly already (almost) exist. Instead, as you say, they go for hyped content islands and the occasional power creep nudge.

DE needs revenue, and we all need DE to get that revenue, and it might very well be that players still aiming for (their own) endgame generates more revenue than the über-METAs and the "been there, done everything"-players. So hyped content islands might be understandable from that viewpoint. But I would argue that retaining maxed-out players is of quite a big importance to the game. Getting a helpful "legendary" in your random squad can be quite a (game-changing) thing, and even those "kill everything quickly"-players currently spreading explosions on the map from start to finish seems to inspire some newer players by their sheer lethality. So making sure "endgamers" have something meaningful to do should be on the priority list, always, even if it is not at the very top. I am not sure that is the case though...

[killerJoke66]

2 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Ah yes, "everything is mobile defense" argument. Cool.

I didnt say '' everything '' , the exact 4 missions in crysalith or whatever , the 4 missions you mentioned. 

[CrownOfShadows]

Just now, Mieo_Mio said:

Outside of end game is the reality of what DE wants to do. Do they want a team separation between War and Soul for the indefinite future? (Conjecture) They will use Warframe to help cover production costs for Soul. (Soul will remain a very small team.) and let Warframe fade away when "Duviri" resolves or bleeds out in quest campaign, with a clear implication the Warframe universe is inexorably altered to Soul. This will probably be another 3-5 years. Soul will have debuted, and they will consolidate the two teams again. 

Yeah I think what happens after Duviri will be our best indication as to the future of warframe, whether it's a fade-out, experimental/innovative or back-to-basics.

[vanaukas]

21 minutes ago, killerJoke66 said:

I didnt say '' everything '' , the exact 4 missions in crysalith or whatever , the 4 missions you mentioned. 

there are 5 missions tho. 3 of them are new.

- Void Flood: Collect vitoplast orbs to close stuff. Nothing to defend. Focused on parkour.

- Void Cascade: Activate exolizers to purge the area. Nothing to defend, you have to kill stuff.

- Void armagedon: First attempt of towder defense mechanics. You have to defend something.

- Literal mob def

- Exterminate

So how those "4 missions" are mob def? Please, enlight me.

[CrownOfShadows]

3 minutes ago, Graavarg said:

If you want conclusions one could summarize the power fantasy as "fun while it lasts, but logically always a dead end", and so also unsuitable as a building block for any real endgame content. Warframe "sandboxing" has the potential for a humongous amount of added content, which also translates into allowing players more diverse paths and goals for playing Warframe.

Hm. Let's take helminth as probably the best example of sandboxing. It opens up tons and tons of possibilities, and it overall has been an awesome addition for sure (gloom notwithstanding). I agree this creates a weird sort of 'content' in that it basically keeps people busy in a way, but it's also power creep.

If they opened up 2 abilities for helminth, that would be more sandboxing, a lot more, but also more power creep. If they gave us two companions instead of one, or three companions, or four, that's interesting, but it's also power creep. Making multi-polarity mods is super interesting, but also power creep. Expanding team size is interesting but also power creep. Adding an augment slot is power creep too to a minor extent.

Diversity = power creep = power fantasy is my basic point here. Sandboxing as you're describing seems like power fantasy by another name.

I do think there are sandboxing possibilities that avoid power creep but are still interesting, and I think these are superior simply for the reason of power creep. For example decreasing team size would be new and fresh and not power creep. Sometimes restricting possibilities is just as interesting as expanding them.

Also, another thing I think worth mentioning is that even with all the build diversity in the world we still need a thing to go and use it on. The health of a system is indirectly dependent on what you're using it on. So, while helminth's 'content' might be longer lived than a standard content island's, the two are also linked, because new content gives you new ways to use your new system. You need both system innovation and new content to use it on. Using new systems on old content is fine, but lives a way shorter life. There are only so many ways to use helminth on the same old Venus fissure before you reach the bottom and burnout.

My point here is that even system innovation is to some degree dependent on traditional content and thus also cycles with it to. Until the next content dump, we have nothing new to use our varied systems on. Right now, for example, Zariman is pretty well in hand and we have experimented ourselves back into boredom with it, despite having helminth and all the other system innovations we've developed over the years, be it arcanes or augments or exilus or parkour or melee etc etc.